Flag and National Anthem protests

[wyliec]

Please, all you guys were staying quite civil, until the last few posts. You want me to kill this thread? Keep it up.

I'd say kill it. No one is going to be swayed to change their mind based on what they read here. The issue of the day has run its course.

[Firefly]

As an african american that did not grow up with your white privilege i really wish i knew what you know. perhaps unlike you i worked
for all i have, my wife & i paid for our wedding. now cut the crap and live in ny so you can experience the real world.
Pull up your pants, show the officer your license when requested and stop talking back so as to make him feel more comfortable
when he pulls you over for the broken tail light that you know you have had for the past 6 months which is the reason you don't have
a current inspection sticker.

This has nothing to do with you paying for your own things, working hard, etc....

Again.. you obviously don't understand what white privilege is.

All you have are continued insults towards those who have differing opinions. #classy
Judge a complete stranger as someone who hasn't worked? Yeah.. because building and owning my own business for 37 years didn't take any work.

I'm also pretty certain that there are no laws saying you have to pull your pants up or not talk back.

Sounds like you want to live in a police state. Perhaps it is you that should seek a new country then.

You'll never understand what this is all about, so I won't even bother with trying to educate you anymore.

Buh-Bye....

[Firefly]

Sorry but its the belief by many that this statement is true because it has been so widely broadcast by the mainstream media solely to stir this discontent that is the real basis of the the problem. Its NOT a true statement. Yes there are clashes between black males (and other minorities) and police that are a result of cultural and behavioral differences but to assume its the police that are systematically seeking out black males for murder is flat out wrong. Until both sides recognize this and work to correct the real cause, it will not get fixed.

Kneeling to disrespect the flag and the country you are supposed to be a part of only makes the fallacy grow.

I likely should never have clicked on this thread....

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.
Please do some research on how we have systematically incarcerated and treated blacks as second class citizens ever since slavery was abolished.
Blacks are arrested more and do much longer sentences than whites do for the same crimes.
Blacks are treated differently by many of the men in blue as well as other citizens.
Have you been followed around a store because you're white? Have you ever feared being shot when you got pulled over for a broken tail light?

If you're actually interested in learning more about this I can recommend some good books.
If not, that's fine too.

That the flag is 'disrespected' by kneeling is merely your personal opinion.. which you are welcome to. Many of us (including many veterans) do not share your opinion.

Hoping you were equally (if not more) outraged when Kid Rock, Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin wore the flag as clothing........


Still don't think this entire topic has any place out here.....

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.
Please do some research on how we have systematically incarcerated and treated blacks as second class citizens ever since slavery was abolished.
Blacks are arrested more and do much longer sentences than whites do for the same crimes.
Blacks are treated differently by many of the men in blue as well as other citizens.
Have you been followed around a store because you're white? Have you ever feared being shot when you got pulled over for a broken tail light?

If you're actually interested in learning more about this I can recommend some good books.
If not, that's fine too.

That the flag is 'disrespected' by kneeling is merely your personal opinion.. which you are welcome to. Many of us (including many veterans) do not share your opinion.

Hoping you were equally (if not more) outraged when Kid Rock, Ted Nugent and Sarah Palin wore the flag as clothing........


Still don't think this entire topic has any place out here.....

to start with when you say we i know i haven't been a part of the we, so tell me what have you done to blacks?
as for being arrested more please check fbi stats as to what & why and tell me why most black crime is on blacks.
at my store the only ones who are watched more are kids & teens, they like to steal valve caps off of display wheels.
i have never feared being shot when pulled over but have had an officer break my tail light with his gun, he got in trouble for that one.
in my years in business & a licensed driver i have had 3 times been asked for a bribe but never paid yet i still show respect to police
since i believe that is a very small minority of those that serve & protect.
Well as for kid rock, ted nugent & sarah palin..........he was nailing pamela anderson so kid gets a pass, ted is a nut job & sarah well
she is just a moron so i don't care.

[Pirate looks at --]

Since this is deteriorating, maybe you should take the argument to PMs instead. That way we don't have to witness the carnage!

[ARtraveler]

Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum.

I am officially out. No further comments. And, two have been deleted.

[UtahPete]

Another fire storm that will never be solved in this forum. I am officially out. No further comments. And, two have been deleted.

I was hoping we could avoid a firestorm on this thread. Our divided nation needs to find a way to have civil dialog between factions. There have always been, and always will be, differences of opinion but they don't have to devolve into trench warfare. I'm still hopeful.

[wyliec]

There have always been, and always will be, differences of opinion but they don't have to devolve into trench warfare. I'm still hopeful.

That's funny. Did you forget where you were at? That's spyderlovers middle name- warfare.

[UtahPete]

That's funny. Did you forget where you were at? That's spyderlovers middle name- warfare.

Comic relief is good, don't ya think?

[wyliec]

to start with when you say we i know i haven't been a part of the we, so tell me what have you done to blacks?

I watch Survivor's Remorse; does that count?

[UtahPete]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.bb4a7724e700

[classicvw]

I'd say kill it. No one is going to be swayed to change their mind based on what they read here. The issue of the day has run its course.

Kill it already. Some really ignorant comments from both sides.

[jcthorne]

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.

On this one sentence, as applied to your rebuttal, is the only part of it I can agree with. From my point of view, it is you that is living in a fantasy land rather than the real world. We will have to move along with the understanding that we see this issue very differently.

Oh, I do need to address one item you mentioned. No, there is no law that says you have to treat an officer of the law with respect. Not doing so will land you in peril in ANY COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Most far worse than in the US. Does not make this a police state. Respect does not mean you agree with them. I disagree with you and am attempting to state that in a respectful manner.

[wyliec]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.bb4a7724e700

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

[kep-up]

It has been a struggle, but I have managed to stay out of this one. And plan to continue to do so.

But, if anymore nasty personal comments get posted, I would agree that it should be CENSORED.

[UtahPete]

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.

[Firefly]

Seems many were asleep in history class and haven't bothered to do any research on these issues.
No sense arguing with those in such denial with closed minds.

[Pirate looks at --]

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.

If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

[UtahPete]

If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

[Saluda]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

[UtahPete]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

I think communication is the main thing that moves society forward.

[RinconRyder]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

"Our country" did not decide to massively interfere in the Mid-East - our president did (along with help from friends in Congress). That was exactly the same process that got us into trouble in Vietnam. And by doing so, and then lying about the reasons for the intervention, our government lost its integrity and that is a huge reason we are so divided today.

I agree with your statement that if we had the draft today we would not be participating in military interventions around the world. The streets would be filled with protesters just as they were in the 1960's.

[wyliec]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure.

Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

i think i have said about all i can on this thread, some agree some disagree. i will go to sleep each night and go to work the next morning
no matter what anyone thinks. i will still ride when i can, i will stand when appropriate and i will go to the bathroom when needed.

[UtahPete]

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure. Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

Honestly, Wyliec, I am not trying to be provocative. When I first got active on this forum I did say some pretty provocative things, but lately I've tried to be conciliatory.

Anyway, I guess by 'massive' I meant the 'shock and awe' of the invasion of Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Wasn't exactly subtle...