Front end shudder

[Steamer]

I have a 2015 F3SE with 13,000 miles. On our last trip when I applied the brake from a "healthy" deacceleration at 60 mph the front tires shudder and shake. Is this a sign of warped rotors or should I be looking elsewhere for the problem. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

It might be ... to check remove Rotors and place them on piece of thick glass ( it needs to FLAT ) ..... take a thin piece of paper and see if you slide it under the Rotors .... all around them .... this will tell you if the Rotors are warped if you can get thicker paper under this will indicate - How Much it is ..... Mike

[Steamer]

Thanks for the response and I will give your procedure a try.
The shuddering seems to be getting worse. So much so that you can see the fenders bob up and down as you brake.
I do not feel any pulsating on the brake pedal and I wonder if I have something loose on the steering, frame, or bad bearings. Lots to lot at and will start with the rotors.
Blueknight, would one warped rotor cause both tires to shudder? The whole front end seems to shake with both tires in unison.

[SpyderAnn01]

Do you have the original front tires on it? Does it only shake when you brake or while you're moving? If you've got the original tires you are probably ready for new ones.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Do you have the original front tires on it? Does it only shake when you brake or while you're moving? If you've got the original tires you are probably ready for new ones.

Ann brings up a good point .... if you have Kenda tires they are noted for their tendency to have a High failure rate ( compared to car tires ( ( and Arachnids are worse )..... the plys can and do separate and shift .... I do have afeeling that you would notice this ALL the time not just on Braking ..... Mike

[Peter Aawen]

While it's a good idea to check & rule out the warped disc possibility, I reckon that if this shuddering seems to be getting worse as the miles rack up, & you can't really feel it shuddering thru the brake pedal, then it might not be brakes at all - from what you describe, it's probably more likely that you've got at least one dodgy tire.... If you are still running the OE Kendas up front, then it's FAAAAR more likely that you've got TWO dodgy or possibly even dangerously compromised tires!!

Is there any chance you could swap wheels with someone else (preferably wheels & tires from another Spyder that is not running the OE Kendas up front still, altho if you can find any 'positively known good' Kendas then they might be OK - yeah, difficult to find Kendas like that, possibly even impossible... buuut ) & go for a short run to see if that gets rid of the vibration??

If I was a betting man & you've still got Kendas up front, then I reckon I'd be putting money on it being the tires!! If you haven't still got the Kendas up front, you could start by checking the tire balancing, or maybe even measuring tread depth to look for a flat spot or two.... Good Luck!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks for the response and I will give your procedure a try.
The shuddering seems to be getting worse. So much so that you can see the fenders bob up and down as you brake.
I do not feel any pulsating on the brake pedal and I wonder if I have something loose on the steering, frame, or bad bearings. Lots to lot at and will start with the rotors.
Blueknight, would one warped rotor cause both tires to shudder? The whole front end seems to shake with both tires in unison.

My feeling is .....what caused them to warp ( if they have ) .... heating and cooling would effect both front rotors - not just one ........ but it might be only ONE and depending on the severity , it might be difficult to tell if was only on one side ......... good luck ..... Mike

[SpyderAnn01]

It sounds like cupping tires to me. One day your bike rides nice and smooth and the next you think your fenders are going to shake off.

[BajaRon]

If your A-Arm bushings are worn it can give you a 'Warped Rotor' feeling ONLY when braking. A worn out tie rod end can do the same thing. Just 2 more possibilities.

[Highwayman2013]

It sounds like cupping tires to me. One day your bike rides nice and smooth and the next you think your fenders are going to shake off.

I've got over 13,000 on the F3 and the original Kendas are wearing funny and shaking a little.

[Steamer]

Thanks for all the responses.
i replaced the Kendra's in March with Hankook Ventus 4 and they have about 4300 miles on them. I suppose that I could have a faulty tire, but when I inspect them they look ok to me.

[Steamer]

If your A-Arm bushings are worn it can give you a 'Warped Rotor' feeling ONLY when braking. A worn out tie rod end can do the same thing. Just 2 more possibilities.

Thanks for your response. Since I have replaced the tires, I suspect that there is another cause to the shuddering up front.
The bike performs normally at all speeds, no wandering and no vague steering. The shuddering only occurs with "firm" braking. I really do not feel any abnormal vibration in the handle bars and the bike tracks normally.
Not sure how to check the bushings or any other steering mechanism, but I will fiddle and see what I can observe.
My wife's identical bike with the tire change and very similar mileage does not have any issues.

[BajaRon]

Thanks for your response. Since I have replaced the tires, I suspect that there is another cause to the shuddering up front.
The bike performs normally at all speeds, no wandering and no vague steering. The shuddering only occurs with "firm" braking. I really do not feel any abnormal vibration in the handle bars and the bike tracks normally.
Not sure how to check the bushings or any other steering mechanism, but I will fiddle and see what I can observe.
My wife's identical bike with the tire change and very similar mileage does not have any issues.

Push and pull the top of the tire (inwards and outwards) as aggressively as you can to see if you can feel any slop. Then turn the handlebars slightly left/right and see if there is any movement in the bar without corrisponding movement in one or both wheels. You are looking for slop in the system somewhere.

Then again, it could be a warped rotor. I am amazed at how many front rotors I sell to F3 riders. Some have already replaced the OEM rotors with OEM rotors twice. You would think the RT riders would be harder on rotors.

Good luck and please let us know what the final solution is.

[UtahPete]

I have a 2015 F3SE with 13,000 miles. On our last trip when I applied the brake from a "healthy" deacceleration at 60 mph the front tires shudder and shake. Is this a sign of warped rotors or should I be looking elsewhere for the problem. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I just got back from Tuolumne (the rally). I noticed that happening on my 2014RT on the twisties; if I had to apply the brake hard the wheel on the outside of the turn would judder. It doesn't happen any other time, so I was thinking it must be the ABS or the VSS applying the brakes unevenly since the front tires would be rotating at different speeds. I'll be watching the thread to see what you come up with.

[Easy Rider]

so I was thinking it must be the ABS or the VSS applying the brakes unevenly since the front tires would be rotating at different speeds.

AND it is possible that there is a fault in the ABS or VSS causing it to activate when it shouldn't.

OR.....his braking is more "firm" than he thinks and the ABS actually is kicking in.

[Steamer]

Push and pull the top of the tire (inwards and outwards) as aggressively as you can to see if you can feel any slop. Then turn the handlebars slightly left/right and see if there is any movement in the bar without corrisponding movement in one or both wheels. You are looking for slop in the system somewhere.

Then again, it could be a warped rotor. I am amazed at how many front rotors I sell to F3 riders. Some have already replaced the OEM rotors with OEM rotors twice. You would think the RT riders would be harder on rotors.

Good luck and please let us know what the final solution is.

Thanks for the suggestions and I tried turning the handle bar and did not feel any slop. I also did the tire push pull and all seemed stable.
Will remove the rotors and see if there is any warping (Blueknight paper procedure).
this will take me a while because of other comiments right now, BUT I promis to reaveal the problem/fix.

[BajaRon]

Thanks for the suggestions and I tried turning the handle bar and did not feel any slop. I also did the tire push pull and all seemed stable.
Will remove the rotors and see if there is any warping (Blueknight paper procedure).
this will take me a while because of other comiments right now, BUT I promis to reaveal the problem/fix.

Sounds like the problem is not a bad tie-rod end. But with the handlebar approach it is more a sight than feel thing. You want to see movement in both wheels even with the slightest input. If one wheel moves before the other, that is a pretty good sign that you have a tie-rod issue.

You can also jack up the front end and manually move the wheel left right in short, repeated succession and feel for any clunk. Or, you can slide underneath and jerk on the tie-rod ends and feel for any slop that way.

[tsmdvl3]

Just replaced my front tires with 18000 miles on them! I get the shaking on mine from time to time. techs told me brakes would last me rest of season so will have them checked next spring.

[UtahPete]

Sounds like the problem is not a bad tie-rod end. But with the handlebar approach it is more a sight than feel thing. You want to see movement in both wheels even with the slightest input. If one wheel moves before the other, that is a pretty good sign that you have a tie-rod issue. You can also jack up the front end and manually move the wheel left right in short, repeated succession and feel for any clunk. Or, you can slide underneath and jerk on the tie-rod ends and feel for any slop that way.

Maybe there is no problem at all. Maybe what he's experiencing is normal under the conditions that it happens. The real problem is he has not been very specific about when it happens.

[Colin]

Sounds like your ABS doing it's job. If you are doing 60mph and then standing on the brakes, then it was probably the ABS keeping you from skidding out of control. Just my thoughts

[UtahPete]

Sounds like your ABS doing it's job. If you are doing 60mph and then standing on the brakes, then it was probably the ABS keeping you from skidding out of control. Just my thoughts

I believe that is what it is also.

[Wildrice]

I have a 2015 F3SE with 13,000 miles. On our last trip when I applied the brake from a "healthy" deacceleration at 60 mph the front tires shudder and shake. Is this a sign of warped rotors or should I be looking elsewhere for the problem. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Warped rotor or tire ply separation would be most likely---do you brake hard on occasion ??

[Steamer]

Not standing on the brakes. Traveling at 55/45 mph and stoping the bike with "reasonable" brake pressure. As the bike slows and the braking pressure is lessened, the shuddering cesses and the bike come to a stop.
I have taken the F3SE to Mike's Powersports here in Reno NV. I had the shop manager test ride the bike for an extended period of time, at various speeds, and on different road surfaces and he stated "this is a weird problem".
Again this is not an issue of standing on the brakes. Over 3000 miles the problem got progressively worse, the bike showed no abnormal handling characteristics, and with my limited evaluation following all your suggestions I did not detect a warped rotor or faulty bushings. There is no brake pedal,surging. Front tires are Hankook Ventus 4 and they have approx 4000 miles on them.
So, I have just turned the bike over (under warntee) to the shop where I purchased the it.
I will continue to keep all,informed when I learn more.
Thanks to all for your input

[Steamer]

Just heard back from the shop manager and he told me that I have warped rotors. The application of a micrometer showed that both rotors were warped.
called Bajaron and ordered new pads and rotors and he has always been speedy with delivery so I should have the bike up and running soon.
Will post if there are any residual issues.

[Chupaca]

Some of the hankook tires are dirrectonal...did they install the correctly...?? We are seeing bushing problems worth checking..

Thanks for all the responses.
i replaced the Kendra's in March with Hankook Ventus 4 and they have about 4300 miles on them. I suppose that I could have a faulty tire, but when I inspect them they look ok to me.