EPA & Ethonal!

[r1100rider]

There is so much misinformation in regards to e fuels. Maybe it is because "big oil", who knows? What I do know is for a fact what I learned while building this car last winter. It is inexpensive, burns cooler, uses about 20ish % more fuel as compared to straight gasoline, smells like beer in the container, smells like corn when burnt, is not as corrosive or water absorbing as some assume. In this car we could safely run at about 38 degrees total advance and safely run at a 14.2:1 compression ratio. This motor combination made 900 hp and 800 foot pounds of torq at only 6300 rpms. Race fuel to run this motor costs about $16 a gallon, e is $2.50. It did cost more to build because of the custom carb and high end parts most of which would have been used in a gasoline set up anyway. One slight downfall of e is it is harder to start in cold weather. Because of this there are summer and winter blends, winter blends tested out to be about 70% e, meaning more gasoline was added to aid in starting. Basically one could say e has the best of both worlds of gasoline and methanol.

Is e bad for machines that are not engineered to use it? Yes, but that does not conclude e is a bad fuel. If Spyders were properly set up to use e as an option, it would make more power at the expense of burning more fuel, but it costs less as compared to premium fuel, so it is about a wash, leading to the only down fall of having to fill up more often. But for those who like more performance it is a no brainer. The main sensor in the system senses the contents of the fuel in the tank, automatically working with the ecu, tuning for the best running conditions.

As far the industry aspect is concerned, think about this. Corn is renewable, can be grown just about in anyplace, and burns cleaner. The same can not be said for oil wells and gasoline. If the e industry were to take off full force, government assistance would not be needed, supply and demand. The more corn that is in demand the more corn is being purchased from farmers for the industry, removing the need for government subsidizing. This leads to less tax expense and also drives down petroleum costs because the competition that is created by giving buyers a choice of product.

https://youtu.be/K9LzUzQ6EwY

https://youtu.be/725FPZJ0jP0

how many gallons of fuel does this country use per day ? How long does it take for corn to mature and just how many acres will it take ,the problem is not the idea of alcohol but that the corn farmers got to the government first if we were to use methanol in stead like they do in some country's then we could be using limbs grass clippings bean stocks leaves and tons of other waste and we would have a better fuel as well

[Bob Denman]

Alcohol belongs over ice: not in fuel tanks!

I'll Drink To That.jpg
I had two E-85 Silverados. They ran cooler, and made more power, but they used almost 20% MORE fuel to do it.
The upgrades to the fuel system to handle the stuff were pretty involved. If you ran E-15 in a vehicle not properly set up for it: you'd chew things up pretty quick. I'm not even talking about the computer changes: just the hardware!

[Easy Rider]

speaking of mis-information, yours is a good example.

You think Honda, Subaru, Briggs & Stratton all "refuse to spend a few pennies on good parts" in their small engines? Really? it must be collusion don't you think?

Those aren't the companies that complain the loudest about ethanol......but yes, their main motivation is profit just like everybody else.
If they can save a buck per unit, they will.

And I wasn't really talking about OLD equipment; everybody pretty much knows that some of it doesn't get along good with alcohol.

The real debate is: Various people and companies are saying things that leave the impression that it is somehow impossible to build engines that will not be harmed at all by alcohol.......and THAT is just absolutely not true. It is easy, in fact. But it costs a little.

[Easy Rider]

As Dave said lets quit subsidizing the farmers growing the corn for ethanol and it will die quickly.

I'm good with that.
As long as we stop the tax breaks and other subsidies for the oil industry at the same time.

As a matter of fact, the ethanol subsidy is being/has been phased out already.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

[QUOTE=Easy Rider;1287897]Those aren't the companies that complain the loudest about ethanol......but yes, their main motivation is profit just like everybody else.
If they can save a buck per unit, they will.

And I wasn't really talking about OLD equipment; everybody pretty much knows that some of it doesn't get along good with alcohol.

The real debate is: Various people and companies are saying things that leave the impression that it is somehow impossible to build engines that will not be harmed at all by alcohol.......and THAT is just absolutely not true. It is easy, in fact. But it costs a little..... You are absolutely correct .... it's NOT impossible to build engines that tolerate Alcohol very well ...even exceed the norms .... and very rich people can afford them ...... jmho..... Mike

[Easy Rider]

and very rich people can afford them ...... jmho..... Mike

Total BS Mike.

The people in South America aren't rich and they run their cars on a high percentage of ethanol all the time.

And a LOT of them are slightly modified old American cars that you seem so sure will explode or worse if alcohol ever touches them.

GM has been building "flex fuel" cars and trucks for about 10 years now that run on E85 and the cost difference is not large.

You are allowed to have any OPINION that you want.......but you are not allowed to make up your own facts.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Total BS Mike.

The people in South America aren't rich and they run their cars on a high percentage of ethanol all the time.

And a LOT of them are slightly modified old American cars that you seem so sure will explode or worse if alcohol ever touches them.

GM has been building "flex fuel" cars and trucks for about 10 years now that run on E85 and the cost difference is not large.

You are allowed to have any OPINION that you want.......but you are not allowed to make up your own facts.

....... I'll make up ALL and ANY facts that I want .... after all this is the Internet .......... Enjoy YOUR ethanol ..............Mike

[Bfromla]

I have heard alot about mechanic in a bottle and it's coworker ethanol shield. Are these an others similiar or is one definately better than Star Thron?
Thanks, Mike

I also use seaform

Seafoam is ok but Berryman B-12 has worked better for me & is cheaper.
Star-tron good all around addative & sta-bil for off season marine & lawn equipment while still running once a month if you can.



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[r1100rider]

Total BS Mike.

The people in South America aren't rich and they run their cars on a high percentage of ethanol all the time.

And a LOT of them are slightly modified old American cars that you seem so sure will explode or worse if alcohol ever touches them.

GM has been building "flex fuel" cars and trucks for about 10 years now that run on E85 and the cost difference is not large.

You are allowed to have any OPINION that you want.......but you are not allowed to make up your own facts.

Just because a car can run on it doesn't prove it's the right thing to do on a larger scale for most people and equipment

[Buckeye Bleau]

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.[/QUOTE]

Oh, you mean like Venezuela?

My daughter is an environmental scientist and she has studied the issue of ethanol, it takes more energy to make it than you get from its use. Don't get me wrong, at my house we recycle almost everything and the trash can usually has little in it. This "fuel alternative" is rediculous.

As my friends from foreign lands ask my, why would you burn your food when so many people in the world need it? I worked in agribusiness for many years, this has been a good thing for farmers, but even for them it has not been a blessing as proposed.

As opposed to ethanol you should ask why they don't pay more attention to Natural Gas powered vehicles! We have an abundant supply, it burns cleaner and the result of the burn is a chemical known in some circles as H2O.

Joe

[Schwingel9]

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

Oh, you mean like Venezuela?

My daughter is an environmental scientist and she has studied the issue of ethanol, it takes more energy to make it than you get from its use. Don't get me wrong, at my house we recycle almost everything and the trash can usually has little in it. This "fuel alternative" is rediculous.

As my friends from foreign lands ask my, why would you burn your food when so many people in the world need it? I worked in agribusiness for many years, this has been a good thing for farmers, but even for them it has not been a blessing as proposed.

As opposed to ethanol you should ask why they don't pay more attention to Natural Gas powered vehicles! We have an abundant supply, it burns cleaner and the result of the burn is a chemical known in some circles as H2O.

Joe[/QUOTE]

I agree we should take advantage of more fuel possibilities.

People are starving because of distribution, education, and government suppression.

E fuel gives another option to become less dependent on an un-renewable resource such as oil, especially forign oil. We can grow corn over and over, eat it and burn it. Burning it is a tad less efficient as oil, at this point in time.

In the spyder world because of its non e friendly fuel system gasoline is the only option. If it eas engineered to run on e it would have performance gains, cost less for fill up, but have to fill up a tad more often.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Oh, you mean like Venezuela?

My daughter is an environmental scientist and she has studied the issue of ethanol, it takes more energy to make it than you get from its use. Don't get me wrong, at my house we recycle almost everything and the trash can usually has little in it. This "fuel alternative" is rediculous.

As my friends from foreign lands ask my, why would you burn your food when so many people in the world need it? I worked in agribusiness for many years, this has been a good thing for farmers, but even for them it has not been a blessing as proposed.

As opposed to ethanol you should ask why they don't pay more attention to Natural Gas powered vehicles! We have an abundant supply, it burns cleaner and the result of the burn is a chemical known in some circles as H2O.

Joe

I agree we should take advantage of more fuel possibilities.

People are starving because of distribution, education, and government suppression.

E fuel gives another option to become less dependent on an un-renewable resource such as oil, especially forign oil. We can grow corn over and over, eat it and burn it. Burning it is a tad less efficient as oil, at this point in time.

In the spyder world because of its non e friendly fuel system gasoline is the only option. If it eas engineered to run on e it would have performance gains, cost less for fill up, but have to fill up a tad more often.[/QUOTE]
Something to ponder in this debate ..... Do you think you can grow CORN in the same area's over & over FOREVER ... maybe - but it needs nutrients , there is so much corn being grown ( to meet demand ie ethanol ) that cows etc. can no longer supply all the Natural fertilizer ..... Soooo they have to use CHEMICALS ETC....... CAN YOU SEE WHERE THIS GOING !!! ...... food for thought ..... Mike annnnnd .....according to someone this is probably BS

[Bob Denman]

I think that a key point here (forget about the Political crap...), is that our Country has MILLIONS of vehicles that would not be capable of using a mix that is higher than 10% ethanol. Nobody seems to have tried to figure out what will happen to them.

As far as affordability: The two E-85 trucks that I owned were "Zero-Dollar" options. It cost me no extra money to get the fuel system upgrades. (I wonder if there was some sort of government program paying the bill?)

[Easy Rider]

Seafoam is ok

OK is being generous.

One of the 3 major ingredients in SeaFoam is: ALCOHOL (not ethanol though).

The way that SeaFoam is marketed and priced, it more than qualifies as "snake oil".

[Easy Rider]

As my friends from foreign lands ask my, why would you burn your food when so many people in the world need it?

Ethanol production removes ONLY the sugar content from corn.
One of the other currently fashionable knee-jerk "campaigns" is against high fructose corn syrup.
Y'all should be GLAD that the sugar is removed when the protein and fiber part of the corn moves on to become livestock feed and food products.

Your "friends" in foreign lands......and some right here too......just don't understand, a LOT of things probably.

[Easy Rider]

In the spyder world because of its non e friendly fuel system gasoline is the only option.
.....according to someone this is probably BS

Yes it probably IS. And it's not funny either.

I don't have it handy to confirm this at the moment but............
I'm pretty sure that my owners manual for the new '17 RT said that E15 is OK.
Is that not true ?
If so, how LONG has that been true, as in for how many model years ??

[Bob Denman]

Alcohol fuel blending varies by country
and region. Your vehicle has been
designed to operate using the recommended
fuels, however, be aware of
the following:
– Use of fuel containing alcohol above
the percentage specified by government
regulations is not recommended
and can result in the following
problems in the fuel system
components:
• Starting and operating difficulties.
• Deterioration of rubber or plastic
parts.
• Corrosion of metal parts.
• Damage to internal engine parts.
– Inspect frequently for the presence
of fuel leaks or other fuel system
abnormalities if you suspect the
presence of alcohol in gasoline exceeds
the current government regulations.
– Alcohol blended fuels attract and
hold moisture which may lead to
fuel phase separation and can result
in engine performance problems or
engine damage.
Recommended Fuel
Use premium unleaded gasoline with
an AKI (RON+MON)/2 octane rating of
91, or an RON octane rating of 95.
NOTICE Never experiment with
other fuels. Engine or fuel system
damages may occur with the use of
an inadequate fuel.
NOTICE Do NOT use fuel fromfuel
pumps labeled E85.
Use of fuel labeled E15 is prohibited by
U.S. EPA Regulations.


This was taken right out of the 2017 RT's manual.
It seems that being "pretty sure"; is different from actually knowing something.


_______________

[Red RT-S]

Yes it probably IS. And it's not funny either.

I don't have it handy to confirm this at the moment but............
I'm pretty sure that my owners manual for the new '17 RT said that E15 is OK.
Is that not true ?
If so, how LONG has that been true, as in for how many model years ??

My 2017 RT manual says the following:

"Use of fuel labeled E15 is prohibited by
U.S. EPA Regulations"

[Schwingel9]

Yes it probably IS. And it's not funny either.

I don't have it handy to confirm this at the moment but............
I'm pretty sure that my owners manual for the new '17 RT said that E15 is OK.
Is that not true ?
If so, how LONG has that been true, as in for how many model years ??

Its not true. It cautions against alcohol and fuel separation. Recommends premium gasoline for best performance. Yes, 2017 book.

[KX5062]

So much misinformation and so much not understood about ethanol by so many people. I just wish people would research it before opining about it, then promulgating that misinformation, and then voting, but I guess that includes many many different topics.

[jaherbst]

[QUOTE=BLUEKNIGHT911;1287743]How's this ..... it's a Proven fact that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of power that Non - E gas produces ........... they DON'T put that Crap in ANY car, motorcycle, truck etc that " Races ".........Why do you think that might be ? ? ...Mike [/QUOTE

I'm with Mike on this one. The "flash point" is half of what gas is. Try lighting pure gasoline and then alcohol. See which lights quicker and is more explosive.

Jack

[Schwingel9]

[QUOTE=jaherbst;1288107]

How's this ..... it's a Proven fact that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of power that Non - E gas produces ........... they DON'T put that Crap in ANY car, motorcycle, truck etc that " Races ".........Why do you think that might be ? ? ...Mike [/QUOTE

I'm with Mike on this one. The "flash point" is half of what gas is. Try lighting pure gasoline and then alcohol. See which lights quicker and is more explosive.

Jack

Its used in this race car and many many others.

https://youtu.be/K9LzUzQ6EwY

https://youtu.be/XNMJruZJJKg

[WackyDan]

How's this ..... it's a Proven fact that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of power that Non - E gas produces ........... they DON'T put that Crap in ANY car, motorcycle, truck etc that " Races ".........Why do you think that might be ? ? ...Mike

1. All the Ethanol hate is for small engines. That today means lawn mower engines where the manufacturer hasn't upgraded materials like the fuel pump diaphragm. It might also apply to some very old vehicles made like 20 years + ago.

2. Your computer on the bike adjusts for whether you are running pure gas or ethanol blended. You will get the same acceleration out of them.

3. You only need to take extra care if you are letting your bike sit for long periods of time... Like say... Months.

4. Race engines require higher octane to begin with... Also some race engines run Alcohol injection or pure alcohol - Go figure. Our Spyder engines are not race engines and are designed for use with ethanol blends. The only thing that might be debatable there is what blends the 1330 or 999 was designed for.

Many miles on my spyders.... the vast majority with ethanol blends.

[WackyDan]

Ethanol production removes ONLY the sugar content from corn.
One of the other currently fashionable knee-jerk "campaigns" is against high fructose corn syrup.
Y'all should be GLAD that the sugar is removed when the protein and fiber part of the corn moves on to become livestock feed and food products.

Your "friends" in foreign lands......and some right here too......just don't understand, a LOT of things probably.

Add to that that the corn grown for Ethanol production is not the type of corn that is grown for human consumption.

[Warlock]

Ethanol production removes ONLY the sugar content from corn.
One of the other currently fashionable knee-jerk "campaigns" is against high fructose corn syrup.
Y'all should be GLAD that the sugar is removed when the protein and fiber part of the corn moves on to become livestock feed and food products.

Your "friends" in foreign lands......and some right here too......just don't understand, a LOT of things probably.

Thank goodness they remove the sugar. I'm a diabetic and I don't need my autos needing insulin
David