EPA & Ethonal!

[Bfromla]

FYI
In the last several years, we have seen increasingly higher blends of ethanol like E10 and E15 showing up at the pump. However, these higher blends, specifically E15, have not been approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for use in small engines like those in motorcycles. Studies have shown the potential of clogged in-tank pumps and filters as well as potential damage to fuel lines, injectors, seals, gaskets, and valve seats, as well as to carburetors.

As a result, the EPA banned the use of E15 and higher blends of ethanol in small engines, effectively making its use illegal in a number of instances. In turn, many of the manufacturers of smaller engine vehicles and equipment started including statements that warranties would be voided if E15 was used.

Last month, the EPA actually proposed a reduction in the amount of biofuels, like ethanol, used in the U.S. marketplace.

While this activity is encouraging, the proposed volumes are still extremely high - sitting at levels that our motorcycles cannot handle.

We need your help - Comment on the EPA proposal to let them know while it's a start, it's not good enough!

Comment on the Proposal!

http://cqrcengage.com/mrf/app/act-on...Id=384013&lp=0

[Easy Rider]

FYI
In the last several years, we have seen increasingly higher blends of ethanol like E10 and E15 showing up at the pump.

If you are going to "soap box" an issue, you should at least get the facts right.

E10 is NOT a new thing. Ever since the advent of "ethanol" the blend has been 10%....or near to it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with higher concentrations.
The biggest objections to E15 come from:
Oil companies and their lackeys because every extra 1% of alcohol sold equals 1% less gas sold.
And the makers of small engines.......because they don't want to be bothered with making slight design changes to their engines so the problem will be eliminated or minimized. Car makers have known how to do that for a long time, making vehicles that handle E85 without problems.

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

[Bfromla]

If you are going to "soap box" an issue, you should at least get the facts right.

E10 is NOT a new thing. Ever since the advent of "ethanol" the blend has been 10%....or near to it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with higher concentrations.
The biggest objections to E15 come from:
Oil companies and their lackeys because every extra 1% of alcohol sold equals 1% less gas sold.
And the makers of small engines.......because they don't want to be bothered with making slight design changes to their engines so the problem will be eliminated or minimized. Car makers have known how to do that for a long time, making vehicles that handle E85 without problems.

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

No soap box nothing, just sharing information for others.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

If you are going to "soap box" an issue, you should at least get the facts right.

E10 is NOT a new thing. Ever since the advent of "ethanol" the blend has been 10%....or near to it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with higher concentrations.
The biggest objections to E15 come from:
Oil companies and their lackeys because every extra 1% of alcohol sold equals 1% less gas sold.
And the makers of small engines.......because they don't want to be bothered with making slight design changes to their engines so the problem will be eliminated or minimized. Car makers have known how to do that for a long time, making vehicles that handle E85 without problems.

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

So it sounds like you are all for ETHANOL ............. I think you are in a very small Minority on this point of view ...... Most Spyder owners would love it if there was no such thing as Ethanol in their Gas ....... Mike

[Wildrice]

If you are going to "soap box" an issue, you should at least get the facts right.

E10 is NOT a new thing. Ever since the advent of "ethanol" the blend has been 10%....or near to it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with higher concentrations.
The biggest objections to E15 come from:
Oil companies and their lackeys because every extra 1% of alcohol sold equals 1% less gas sold.
And the makers of small engines.......because they don't want to be bothered with making slight design changes to their engines so the problem will be eliminated or minimized. Car makers have known how to do that for a long time, making vehicles that handle E85 without problems.

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

Fuel with ethanol will destroy the carburetor fuel pump rubber diaphragm --Small engines --"Riding Lawn Mowers use the vacuum created via piston movement. The rubber diaphragm uses a spring to push it back for the next cycle. I have destroyed two (2) of the rubber diaphragm's used as a fuel pump. The rubber becomes distorted & looses it seal. No more gasoline with ethanol for me--especially in small engines. Full size car engines have an actual fuel pump driven via the cam action thus they can handle it--unfortunately the process of making ethanol fuel causes more pollution than oil based fuels. Driving across the middle corn states it is difficult to find any fuel without ethanol---corn based ethanol is the farmer's friend. .
Darrell

[jwulf74]

We live in ethanol country, but I only put it in our commuter car and our truck which were designed for E85... the Spyders, Commander, CTS-V, mower and all other small engines drink 91 with no ethanol. We can't get anything other than 91 ethnically free here... but the gas station that carry it all advertise the ethanol free.

[GOZFST]

We live in ethanol country, but I only put it in our commuter car and our truck which were designed for E85... the Spyders, Commander, CTS-V, mower and all other small engines drink 91 with no ethanol. We can't get anything other than 91 ethnically free here... but the gas station that carry it all advertise the ethanol free.

Actually a couple of stations in Deadwood and I believe Sturgis also have Reg non-oxygenated.

[Easy Rider]

So it sounds like you are all for ETHANOL .............

Not really.
I am not against it.....without good reason.

I am FOR logical analysis based on facts.

[Easy Rider]

Fuel with ethanol will destroy the carburetor fuel pump rubber diaphragm --

More mis-information.

IF.....you get "rubber" parts that are designed for use with ethanol, that will NOT be a problem.
I think the good ones actually are not rubber at all but something like neoprene.

The problem is not with the fuel.......but with the makers of inexpensive small engines who refuse to spend a few pennies on good parts.......and instead spend their money (probably more) spreading biased rumors and mis-information.

[slick999]

I agree with Mike, ethanol is hard on small engines and anything that sits without being used everyday. I add Star Tron to my gas cans before I fill them and at least once a month I add it to my spyder. Star Tron helps neutrilize the ethanol.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I agree with Mike, ethanol is hard on small engines and anything that sits without being used everyday. I add Star Tron to my gas cans before I fill them and at least once a month I add it to my spyder. Star Tron helps neutrilize the ethanol.

Thanks and ....... I also add Marine Star - Tron for the same reasons .... however I do it every time I get gas ..... At a motel I stayed at they had little bottles of Shampoo ( which I STOLE ) ...... I carry my S-T in it 3 oz, the directions are for about 1/2 teaspoon for 8 gallons and I never put more than 4.5 so I'm covered ...... I'm surprised that the container doesn't even smell of the S-T and I keep it in the glove box where it is a bit warmer....... Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Not really.
I am not against it.....without good reason.

I am FOR logical analysis based on facts.

How's this ..... it's a Proven fact that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of power that Non - E gas produces ........... they DON'T put that Crap in ANY car, motorcycle, truck etc that " Races ".........Why do you think that might be ? ? ...Mike

[wmh9680]

I have heard a lot about mechanic in a bottle and it's coworker ethanol shield. Are these an others similiar or is one definately better than Star Tron?
Thanks, Mike

I also use seaform

[Easy Rider]

.....they DON'T put that Crap in ANY car, motorcycle, truck etc that " Races ".........Why do you think that might be ? ? ...Mike

I don't have to think because it isn't true.

NASCAR presently uses E15......or they are lying.
A couple of drag racing classes use custom blended fuel that is mostly alcohol.

AND......in a vehicle that is used regularly, it is NOT necessary to put ANYTHING into the ethanol all the time.
The alcohol doesn't need to be "neutralized".....and that isn't what the additives do anyway.
Continuous use of any additive is just a waste of money.

But I sense another case of "Don't confuse me with facts because my mind is already made up."

[CA Railwhale]

I don't have to think because it isn't true.

NASCAR presently uses E15......or they are lying.
A couple of drag racing classes use custom blended fuel that is mostly alcohol.

AND......in a vehicle that is used regularly, it is NOT necessary to put ANYTHING into the ethanol all the time.
The alcohol doesn't need to be "neutralized".....and that isn't what the additives do anyway.
Continuous use of any additive is just a waste of money.

But I sense another case of "Don't confuse me with facts because my mind is already made up."

Indy cars run on pure alcohol. That's why you can't see the fires that happen in the pit. All you see is the driver suddenly bolting from the car.

[ofdave]

More mis-information.

IF.....you get "rubber" parts that are designed for use with ethanol, that will NOT be a problem.
I think the good ones actually are not rubber at all but something like neoprene.

The problem is not with the fuel.......but with the makers of inexpensive small engines who refuse to spend a few pennies on good parts.......and instead spend their money (probably more) spreading biased rumors and mis-information.

speaking of mis-information, yours is a good example.

You think Honda, Subaru, Briggs & Stratton all "refuse to spend a few pennies on good parts" in their small engines? Really? it must be collusion don't you think?
How about the boat owners? Most outboard engine manufacturers now allow 10% ethanol to be used but not in engines built before 2004. And while the use of ethanol is ok in the engine it wreaks havoc with the fuel system plumbing.
And heaven help you if you own a classic car or motorcycle. We all know the makers of those refused to spend a few pennies on good parts too.

[Saluda]

I hate ethanol!
No shelf life, have to spend money on stabilizers. It's a waste of water.
Join the A.M.A, they're fighting it.

[ARtraveler]

All I can add: ...

[BajaRon]

Here is what I propose. Simply stop subsidizing Ethanol degraded fuels. I am pretty sure that would end the debate and solve the problem in very short order. Because Ethanol fuels are actually more expensive than the non-subsidized 100% gasoline fuels. The cost at the pump price of Ethano fuel is artificially manipulated to be less than straight gasoline. The additional cost has to be paid and it comes right out of your tax pocket.

Ethanol is a less efficient (HP and fuel mileage suffers), it is more expensive than straight gasoline, it is damaging to engines and fuel systems, and actually pollutes more than straight gasoline. Other than farmers making a profit (which I am all for, by the way). There are zero advantages to adding ethanol to fuel.

Straight gasoline is a superior fuel that costs less. That's what I'm all about.

[dndfindley]

If you are going to "soap box" an issue, you should at least get the facts right.

E10 is NOT a new thing. Ever since the advent of "ethanol" the blend has been 10%....or near to it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with higher concentrations.
The biggest objections to E15 come from:
Oil companies and their lackeys because every extra 1% of alcohol sold equals 1% less gas sold.
And the makers of small engines.......because they don't want to be bothered with making slight design changes to their engines so the problem will be eliminated or minimized. Car makers have known how to do that for a long time, making vehicles that handle E85 without problems.

South American countries have been using alcohol rich fuel for decades and they seem to get along just fine.

Ethanol production reduces the amount of corn that can be used for livestock feed and more importantly food for third world countries. ALL ethanol production should be stopped as soon as possible. It is not needed, it is not any cleaner and it takes more of it to produce the same amount of power as does gasoline. There is NO good argument for ethanol - NONE!

[dndfindley]

More mis-information.

IF.....you get "rubber" parts that are designed for use with ethanol, that will NOT be a problem.
I think the good ones actually are not rubber at all but something like neoprene.

The problem is not with the fuel.......but with the makers of inexpensive small engines who refuse to spend a few pennies on good parts.......and instead spend their money (probably more) spreading biased rumors and mis-information.

Why don't you admit it and say you are a fan of ethanol. I know what you have said but your words betray you. Don't blame engine manufacturers because there would be no problems with small engines if all gasoline was ethanol free.

[Warlock]

Why don't you admit it and say you are a fan of ethanol. I know what you have said but your words betray you. Don't blame engine manufacturers because there would be no problems with small engines if all gasoline was ethanol free.

E-10 makes me
David

[r1100rider]

Not really.
I am not against it.....without good reason.

I am FOR logical analysis based on facts.

how about the fact that it takes over a gallon of ref fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethonal or the fact that your car drops mileage using it or how about the fact that it caused food prices to rise because we are using it for fuel instead of feeding cows

[DJFaninTN]

As Dave said lets quit subsidizing the farmers growing the corn for ethanol and it will die quickly. Let's not forgot those politicians who are getting kick backs from special interest groups to keep it going. Both R's & D's are included in that group.

More of our tax dollars getting wasted!!

[Schwingel9]

There is so much misinformation in regards to e fuels. Maybe it is because "big oil", who knows? What I do know is for a fact what I learned while building this car last winter. It is inexpensive, burns cooler, uses about 20ish % more fuel as compared to straight gasoline, smells like beer in the container, smells like corn when burnt, is not as corrosive or water absorbing as some assume. In this car we could safely run at about 38 degrees total advance and safely run at a 14.2:1 compression ratio. This motor combination made 900 hp and 800 foot pounds of torq at only 6300 rpms. Race fuel to run this motor costs about $16 a gallon, e is $2.50. It did cost more to build because of the custom carb and high end parts most of which would have been used in a gasoline set up anyway. One slight downfall of e is it is harder to start in cold weather. Because of this there are summer and winter blends, winter blends tested out to be about 70% e, meaning more gasoline was added to aid in starting. Basically one could say e has the best of both worlds of gasoline and methanol.

Is e bad for machines that are not engineered to use it? Yes, but that does not conclude e is a bad fuel. If Spyders were properly set up to use e as an option, it would make more power at the expense of burning more fuel, but it costs less as compared to premium fuel, so it is about a wash, leading to the only down fall of having to fill up more often. But for those who like more performance it is a no brainer. The main sensor in the system senses the contents of the fuel in the tank, automatically working with the ecu, tuning for the best running conditions.

As far the industry aspect is concerned, think about this. Corn is renewable, can be grown just about in anyplace, and burns cleaner. The same can not be said for oil wells and gasoline. If the e industry were to take off full force, government assistance would not be needed, supply and demand. The more corn that is in demand the more corn is being purchased from farmers for the industry, removing the need for government subsidizing. This leads to less tax expense and also drives down petroleum costs because the competition that is created by giving buyers a choice of product.

https://youtu.be/K9LzUzQ6EwY

https://youtu.be/725FPZJ0jP0