EPA & Ethonal!

[Bob Denman]

Add to that that the corn grown for Ethanol production is not the type of corn that is grown for human consumption.

But it is used for feeding livestock...

[WackyDan]

But it is used for feeding livestock...

And the by-product still is.

We over produce what we need today. The U.S. Gov't actually pays farms to not plant crops in order to artificially keep commodity prices on crops like corn higher. When the bump in ethanol production happened several years ago, they weren't tuned for that and we saw corn futures soar.

[r1100rider]

Total BS Mike.

The people in South America aren't rich and they run their cars on a high percentage of ethanol all the time.

And a LOT of them are slightly modified old American cars that you seem so sure will explode or worse if alcohol ever touches them.

GM has been building "flex fuel" cars and trucks for about 10 years now that run on E85 and the cost difference is not large.

You are allowed to have any OPINION that you want.......but you are not allowed to make up your own facts.

So just how does it work out that it takes over a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol that reduces the mileage the car gets and how many acres per gallon are we talking about

[WackyDan]

So just how does it work out that it takes over a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol that reduces the mileage the car gets and how many acres per gallon are we talking about

That is the political aspect of it and not the Spyder one.

[Easy Rider]

Use of fuel labeled E15 is prohibited by
U.S. EPA Regulations.


This was taken right out of the 2017 RT's manual.
It seems that being "pretty sure"; is different from actually knowing something.

OK you got me there.

But the wording of that paragraph makes no sense.
What if tomorrow the EPA suddenly decided that E15 would NOT be prohibited anymore ??
Does that mean that BRP then is saying that it would be perfectly OK to use ??

And what if I import one to Argentina, for example, where higher concentrations are not only "approved" but very common.
Would it then be OK to use the local "gas" there ??

And I think the wording of the red bolded statement is not necessarily correct either.
Being prohibited is different than not being approved.

[wmh9680]

http://www.firehouse.com/article/105...r-is-it-part-2
E85 Versus Gasoline
Properties................ Ethyl Alcohol.......Gasoline
Boiling Point.................173° F...............102° F
Solubility......................Miscible..............Insolu ble
Flash Point........................55° F.........-45° F
Upper Explosive Limit......19%.............7.60%
Lower Explosive Limit.......3.30%.........1.40%
Visible Flame....................Yes...............Yes

[Bob Denman]

OK you got me there.

But the wording of that paragraph makes no sense.
What if tomorrow the EPA suddenly decided that E15 would NOT be prohibited anymore ??
Does that mean that BRP then is saying that it would be perfectly OK to use ??

And what if I import one to Argentina, for example, where higher concentrations are not only "approved" but very common.
Would it then be OK to use the local "gas" there ??

And I think the wording of the red bolded statement is not necessarily correct either.
Being prohibited is different than not being approved.

Read what the Manual says, and stop playing the "What if" game with it!
It says what it says.

If the conditions change: so will the Manual.

[Easy Rider]

It says what it says.

Quite right.

And the manual does NOT say exactly what fuel blends are acceptable from an engineering standpoint.
It says "do not use fuel that is not government approved for use".

Those two things are VASTLY different.

One generally can trust the engineering recommendations.
One should NOT blindly put faith in Government regulations; too much "politics" involved.

Other vehicle makers state flatly: Do NOT use fuel with more than XX% ethanol because damage to engine components might occur.
Whether or not that is really true might be debatable but it is clear and concise; I don't see why BRP sees fit to beat around the bush with this confusing "government approved" monkey business.

[dpetrick]

Too bad the government does not work in such a way that they EPA and the auto and power sports reps would meet put together a timeline to implement rules and standards, such as these. Government seems to like to mandate rules and expecting companies to do what is mandated, no matter the cost.
I am in Iowa and use ethanol in my cars with no issues. But here I have the option of ethanol free fuel for my bikes and small engines.

[ruralgirl]

Farmland prices have also risen beyond the reach of many farmers due to wealthy investors hot to jump on the ethanol bandwagon. And while it seems "corn can be grown most anywhere", it's not as simple as one may think. We've been desiccating our aquifers for decades, so irrigating is no longer a given as many areas have enforced moratoriums on digging new wells for anything but household use. Fertilizer is extremely expensive and is tied to oil prices. Diseases and pests are a constant challenge which require vigilant, expensive, time consuming solutions. There's simply no reason that I can see to encourage the use of ethanol, which, BTW, is also corrosive to steel if the ethanol is allowed to come into contact with air, from which it readily absorbs water and then produces organic acids.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Farmland prices have also risen beyond the reach of many farmers due to wealthy investors hot to jump on the ethanol bandwagon. And while it seems "corn can be grown most anywhere", it's not as simple as one may think. We've been desiccating our aquifers for decades, so irrigating is no longer a given as many areas have enforced moratoriums on digging new wells for anything but household use. Fertilizer is extremely expensive and is tied to oil prices. Diseases and pests are a constant challenge which require vigilant, expensive, time consuming solutions. There's simply no reason that I can see to encourage the use of ethanol, which, BTW, is also corrosive to steel if the ethanol is allowed to come into contact with air, from which it readily absorbs water and then produces organic acids.

Girl you get it ......please shoot EASY RIDER a PM because He LOVES Ethanol .....Mike

[r1100rider]

Farmland prices have also risen beyond the reach of many farmers due to wealthy investors hot to jump on the ethanol bandwagon. And while it seems "corn can be grown most anywhere", it's not as simple as one may think. We've been desiccating our aquifers for decades, so irrigating is no longer a given as many areas have enforced moratoriums on digging new wells for anything but household use. Fertilizer is extremely expensive and is tied to oil prices. Diseases and pests are a constant challenge which require vigilant, expensive, time consuming solutions. There's simply no reason that I can see to encourage the use of ethanol, which, BTW, is also corrosive to steel if the ethanol is allowed to come into contact with air, from which it readily absorbs water and then produces organic acids.

i still ask the ? How many gallons can be produced off an acre per year I'm sure if you divided that by the millions burned per day in the us it will add up to lots and lots of land so trying to go more than 10% wil become pretty un feasible

[Easy Rider]

Girl you get it ......please shoot EASY RIDER a PM because He LOVES Ethanol .....Mike

How about not throwing personal insults at other members on here.

You don't agree with me.
That doesn't give you license to disrupt the forum with meaningless arguments.

[Saluda]

Sorry, I don't see that as a personal insult or a disruption. Ethanol is a hot subject that many feel very strongly about. Running what we do it (ethanol) has been a major pain.

[r1100rider]

How about not throwing personal insults at other members on here.

You don't agree with me.
That doesn't give you license to disrupt the forum with meaningless arguments.

A meaningless argument like you continue to present you continue to say that motors can be made to run on ethanol yes that is true what every one is stating and you avoid is that it isn't the best idea using farm land and all that is involved giving the fact that more that a gallon is used to produce a gallon and federal subsidies are needed to make it work you can't store the fuel for more that a few months without it going bad and causing problems there is a loss of power and mileage in most of the fleet and so on sure special motors can be run on the stuff but again how many acres per gallon are we talking about here and is competing with our food supply a smart thing to do ,if you look at the time line food prices rose disproportionately to general inflation and it paralleled with the rise of the 7 th wonder of the world forced on the public by the bought and paid for political establishment who always knows more about everything than engineers do Yeah for corn gas

[Buckeye Bleau]

You started this post and have mentioned several times, or eluded to the fact, that most of this was the fault of the evil or cheap corporations making the engines or the companies profiteering from the production of our fuels. I guess we know where you stand and where you get your information from.

Fact, yes corn can be grown almost anywhere, it is a great crop, however.... This crop requires a large quantity of water, perhaps more than any other and as one member stated, fresh water is quickly becoming the commodity most needed in the world. Corn also requires a lot of nutrients, such as fertilizer, particularly nitrogen. Someone asked how long it takes, well, the farmers buy field corn seed that is usually 60 to 90 day corn, so again it grows quickly, given the proper circumstances.

The fertilizers have a petroleum component, making it more expensive to use, and high nitrogen content, the run off or excess from these find their way to the ground water or streams and cause O2 depletion, which in turn changes the ecosystem, killing or stunting the fish and increasing multiflora, algae, growth to unhealthy levels. Farmers get blamed and fined constantly when this happens, but it is necessary to produce enough product for what is needed. For decades the corn price was about $2.00 / bushel, when ethanol production came on board with all of its government subsidies, the price skyrocketed to $4.00. There was more water needed, more fertilizer needed and much more fuel burnt to till, plant, cultivate and harvest offsetting the gain in price to agribusiness.

The fact is, the engine, vehicle, and petroleum companies are producing a product for us, employing people that in turn provide housing, food, entertainment, etc. for families. Meanwhile, the politicians that you so adore that put roadblocks in the way of progress for all of us are the REAL profiteers. They are making more profit than anyone and they don't provide anything other than more regulation. That weasel down in Tennessee, I won't say his name, but he is still whining about his presidential campaign loss, has profited many millions from this hoax and he does not even live by the standards that he wants to impose on us. They are the bad guys.

Look, the engine and vehicle manufacturerers can invent, develop and change whatever we want, but it all comes at a cost, how much are you willing to spend? All cars after a certain year will be required to have a screen on the dash that helps us see behind the car while backing up, how much will I have to pay for this unwanted feature?

The elitists think they can legislate it for our needs, or tax the evil corporations, but you and I will pay for that tax, penalty or fine, whatever they want to calll it, with high costs.

And yes, I am on my soapbox, get over it!

Joe

[Bob Denman]

If you don't like supporting major corporations: import one of these little puppies, and have yourself some FUN!

Microlina 01.jpg

The Microlina...

[Schwingel9]

You started this post and have mentioned several times, or eluded to the fact, that most of this was the fault of the evil or cheap corporations making the engines or the companies profiteering from the production of our fuels. I guess we know where you stand and where you get your information from.

Fact, yes corn can be grown almost anywhere, it is a great crop, however.... This crop requires a large quantity of water, perhaps more than any other and as one member stated, fresh water is quickly becoming the commodity most needed in the world. Corn also requires a lot of nutrients, such as fertilizer, particularly nitrogen. Someone asked how long it takes, well, the farmers buy field corn seed that is usually 60 to 90 day corn, so again it grows quickly, given the proper circumstances.

The fertilizers have a petroleum component, making it more expensive to use, and high nitrogen content, the run off or excess from these find their way to the ground water or streams and cause O2 depletion, which in turn changes the ecosystem, killing or stunting the fish and increasing multiflora, algae, growth to unhealthy levels. Farmers get blamed and fined constantly when this happens, but it is necessary to produce enough product for what is needed. For decades the corn price was about $2.00 / bushel, when ethanol production came on board with all of its government subsidies, the price skyrocketed to $4.00. There was more water needed, more fertilizer needed and much more fuel burnt to till, plant, cultivate and harvest offsetting the gain in price to agribusiness.

The fact is, the engine, vehicle, and petroleum companies are producing a product for us, employing people that in turn provide housing, food, entertainment, etc. for families. Meanwhile, the politicians that you so adore that put roadblocks in the way of progress for all of us are the REAL profiteers. They are making more profit than anyone and they don't provide anything other than more regulation. That weasel down in Tennessee, I won't say his name, but he is still whining about his presidential campaign loss, has profited many millions from this hoax and he does not even live by the standards that he wants to impose on us. They are the bad guys.

Look, the engine and vehicle manufacturerers can invent, develop and change whatever we want, but it all comes at a cost, how much are you willing to spend? All cars after a certain year will be required to have a screen on the dash that helps us see behind the car while backing up, how much will I have to pay for this unwanted feature?

The elitists think they can legislate it for our needs, or tax the evil corporations, but you and I will pay for that tax, penalty or fine, whatever they want to calll it, with high costs.

And yes, I am on my soapbox, get over it!

Joe

It currently takes about 3 gallons of water to produce a gallon of ethanol. That number is rapidly decreasing with environmental efforts and developments in technology. To put ethanol’s water use into perspective, it takes about 25 gallons of water to produce 1 gallon of oil and 150 gallons of water to produce one Sunday newspaper.

[Schwingel9]

THE BIOFUEL ETHANOL IS A WIN FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.
A number of recent studies from 2016 highlight the fact that ethanol increasingly bene ts our environment, whereas oil is only becoming more harmful for our environment.
ETHANOL REDUCES GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.
The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) released a peer-reviewed report examining the lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions from corn-based ethanol. The report found that corn ethanol reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 43 percent compared to conventional gasoline today, would further reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent by 2022, and has the potential to reduce emissions by as much as 76 percent.
According to the Department of Energy’s Argonne national Laboratory in a peer-reviewed study, when emissions related to fertilizer and chemical production, diesel use on the farm, transportation of the corn, energy used by the ethanol plant, transportation of ethanol to the market, and land use change emission, are tallied corn ethanol on average reduces GHG emissions by 34 percent compared to gasoline.
ETHANOL IMPROVES AIR QUALITY & LOWERS EMISSIONS.
As an oxygenate, ethanol helps fuel burn more completely and ef ciently, helping to lower carbon monoxide, particulate emissions (PM), as well as air toxics like benzene.
A review of real-world data over the last several decades shows signi cant decreases in emissions while ethanol blending has increased dramatically. Just in the last 15 years, ozone has decreased 17 percent while ethanol blending is above 10 percent, according to EPA data. Additional data from the University of Illinois-Chicago show substantial reductions in PM and benzene with the addition of ethanol.
EPA AND USDA CONCLUDE ETHANOL HAS NOT CONTRIBUTED TO FARMLAND EXPANSION.
According to EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Inventory, there is no indication that native grassland has been converted to cropland since 2005, the year the RFS was enacted. Furthermore, ethanol production results in a coproduct (DDGs) that is used to feed livestock and reduce the amount of land used for feed.
In January 2017, the United States Department of Agriculture issued a study based on direct evidence from the past ten years, not projections, and found that between 2004 and 2012, at the same time U.S. corn ethanol production increased more than 200 percent, deforestation in Brazil’s Amazon decreased from 10,200 to 2,400 square miles per year.
Any recent reduction in U.S. acreage of Conservation Reserve Program land is the direct result of legislation — not ethanol production. The 2008 Farm Bill removed funding for roughly 7 million acres of CRP land. Based on this law, the number of enrolled acres has decreased to t within the program’s
new, smaller budget. The 2014 Farm Bill additionally reduced the acreage of CRP land by another 8 million.
WILDLIFE HABITAT AND NATIVE GRASSLAND ARE NEGATIVELY IMPACTED BY FOSSIL FUELS.
The University of Montana found that the extraction and production of fossil fuels was responsible for destroying 7.4 million acres of vegetation from 2000 to 2013, and has severely jeopardized wildlife habitats. Surface mining is also responsible for the destruction of ecosystems and water pollution, harming sh and other wildlife.

[KX5062]

You do realize that "Greenhouse Gas" is a hoax, right?

[RiverCity45]

I am fortunate enough to have a gas station close to me that sells fuel that does not contain ethanol. Whenever possible, I choose to do that. Now, when out on a ride, I rarely have find non-ethanol gas, and have to use what is available.

YMMV.

[Bob Denman]

I've got an idea...
Let's fight about Police Checkpoints and radar detectors for a while; this one is getting stale.

[Easy Rider]

A meaningless argument like you continue to present you continue to say that motors can be made to run on ethanol yes that is true what every one is stating and you avoid is that it isn't the best idea using farm land

And what some of you don't seem to understand is:

Those are two entirely separate things.
While they might both be parts of the larger issue, I try not to get into the "discussion" over whether or not it is a good idea.......because THAT discussion always ends up in a flame war similar to a political argument.......just like it has done here.

Ethanol is not evil.
Ethanol will not harm engines made to use it.
That's all. Over and out.