First oil change - "advice" from mechanic

[stebrock]

So I just got my first full service oil change at 3,000 miles on my 2016 F3L. When he finished the mechanic came out and gave me the results. Everything was good he said but I need to give you some advice. The printout shows that you have a lot of run time less than 3,000 rpm. I said yes most of my driving is around town going 35 - 40 mph (900 out of my 3000 miles at interstate speeds). He said well you need to hold off shifting until at least 3500 - 4000 rpm. So I said why? He informs me that by shifting at the "lower" rpms and continuing to ride at less than 3000 rpm (I actually shift gears @ 3000 - 3500 normally) I'm preventing sufficient oil pressure build up to fully engage all the plates in the clutch. This allows slippage and the heat build up can cause warping and early clutch wear out.

So thinking he's giving me advice for the 998 and not wanting to tell him he's wrong I said "well I know on the 998 the clutch didn't engage until around 3200 rpm but the 1330 engages around 1100rpm. Also if you select ECO Mode (I don't) it recommends shifting around 2200 rpm. So what you're telling me doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So without even considering what I had just said He said "well all I can tell you is what BRP tells me to recommend". I could see I wasn't getting anywhere and decided to let it go. He was getting that "I can't believe you're questioning me" look in his eyes.

And to clarify none of the discussion was concerning varying rpm during the break in period.
Rick

[monkeyboymorton]

Interesting. I decided to have a look in the operator's manual and the ony reference to when to chnage gear is this:

7b) Upshifting from First into
Second Gear
– In the straightaway, accelerate
until the engine speed reaches
3000 RPM.
– Press the gear selector forward to
shift into second gear. You do not
have to release the throttle while
shifting with the SE6.
– Once you are comfortable, if space
allows, you can adjust the throttle to
increase speed in second gear.

Nothing about 3500-4000rpm and keeping revs above 3000rpm at all times.

However if he (and BRP) thinks driving below 3000rpm will contribute to early clutch failure it's worth knowing about. Most of us are unlikely to discover these issues until after the warranty has expired. I also think that if that's the case the SE6 should really downshift at 3K by itself to prevent the driver doing this.


I wonder if anyone had to have a clutch replaced on a 1330 yet? (F3 or RT)

[Easy Rider]

If I have a choice between following the recommendations of the manufacturer OR the advice from a "mechanic" who's training and experience is probably unknown (and often is lacking), guess which I will choose to believe ??

In this case, there really isn't that much difference but doing what the book says certainly is NOT bad for the machine.

Oh, and both of the above rank above some unknown poster on the Internet who claims to be an "expert".

This kind of bleeds over to the thread where a new owner somehow got the impression that he should not be shifting until 6K and should keep it above 4K all the time. Total bunk.

[Bob Denman]

B.S. Meter.jpg

He's more full of crap, than the typical Thanksgiving Turkey.

[Cruzr Joe]

I tend to agree with the mechanic, these spyders run more efficient when they are not being lugged around, the tach is provided for a reason. The more efficiently you use your gears the more performance pleasure you will have.

Cruzr Joe

[Easy Rider]

He's more full of crap, than the typical Thanksgiving Turkey.

.
Since this post appeared directly after mine.......the logical assumption is that you are referring to ME in your post.

Either way, please use a small quote so that there will be no mis-understanding.

[Chupaca]

Cause what we have here are two totally different clutches...There may be a mix up there

[CA Railwhale]

I tend to agree with the mechanic, these spyders run more efficient when they are not being lugged around, the tach is provided for a reason. The more efficiently you use your gears the more performance pleasure you will have.

Cruzr Joe

A engine as small as the 1330 is likely to be designed to rev. Lugging is bad for an engine designed to run at high rpm. I normally try to keep my rpm above three grand as a normal practice. I think of the F-3 as a high performance sports car, not a low rpm, high torque unit like an American V-8.

[ARtraveler]

I tend to agree with the mechanic, these spyders run more efficient when they are not being lugged around, the tach is provided for a reason. The more efficiently you use your gears the more performance pleasure you will have.

Cruzr Joe

x 2. The 1330 has lower torque but should not be lugged all the time. I try to shift at 3500 - 4500 most of the time. I believe that Joe likes it about a thousand higher.

[stebrock]

Cause what we have here are two totally different clutches...There may be a mix up there

Which is the point of my original post.

IAW Road and Track lugging is "driving at full throttle at low rpm because the transmission is in too high a gear. The concern is the engine has to work harder to do the same amount of work. This means it runs less efficiently, increases engine temperature, and can cause issues with the timing."

So the concern is for the engine not the transmission. The "mechanic" was explaining it as "insufficient oil pressure to fully engage/lock the transmission leading to excessive wear.
the 1330 is fully engaged/locked around 1100 rpm.

He was giving advice for the wrong transmission.
Rick

[AeroPilot]

It would be nice if if BRP would prepare a little Software enhancement so that every BUDS Service would give the owner a printout with the Service interval Operating Ranges and Suggestions for the Unit that was serviced. I know I would appreciate such a printout even if it was "sanitized" and half sales pitch. Why not use the technology buried in those ECMs?

[SpyderAnn01]

It would be nice if if BRP would prepare a little Software enhancement so that every BUDS Service would give the owner a printout with the Service interval Operating Ranges and Suggestions for the Unit that was serviced. I know I would appreciate such a printout even if it was "sanitized" and half sales pitch. Why not use the technology buried in those ECMs?

When we do alignments I always show the owner their RPM Profile.

[ARtraveler]

When we do alignments I always show the owner their RPM Profile.

We appreciated the information. It gave us the story of the rpm history. Never once, has my dealer offered this information. I have been doing business with the same dealer since 2008. That is a lot of oil change services.

[Steamer]

Some one earlier on this site printed the "power band" on the 1330. Anyone have this chart?

[Roadster Renovations]

Interesting that in eco mode it calls for shifting much lower RPM's than even that 3k. And before anyone slams me, I agree with 3500 being the sweet spot of mine. If around town in traffic I will run in a lower gear to have extra power to get out of the way if needed.

I just find it strange that BRP would set the ECO parameters low enough to damage the clutch if that would be the case.

[Steamer]

Indeed, you did reveal our rpm range when you aligned our Spyders at the "Nor Cal Ralley".
My wife's Spyder rpms indicated that she was riding within the power band and not exceeding redline. She got an A+. However, my rpm chart revealed a much higher range that now has given my wife bragging rights and a bit of finger wagging about my hot rod sourjourns. All secrets were revealed.
By the way the alignments made a real difference in handling with both bikes. Well worth the effort to get them aligned properly.

When we do alignments I always show the owner their RPM Profile.

[Bob Denman]

Some one earlier on this site printed the "power band" on the 1330. Anyone have this chart?

2014-Spyder-RT-dyno-chart.jpg

[Road-Kill]

My F3s automatically downshifts at just under 2000 RPMs for the higher gears. So I'm to believe Can-Am "says" 4000 RPMs yet they build a bike that with a twist to the throttle I'm damaging the engine? I'll admit that when I am slowing down I tap down the gears but will accelerate in whatever gear is engaged......at times. Very confusing but I will rely on BRP engineering and not a strange person unless I form a trust. My thoughts.

[AeroPilot]

Also interesting that the "Sales" Torque Curve starts at 3500 for the V-Twin, while the torque curve shown for the 1330 engine starts at 2000 RPM. I think the mechanic was referring to the V-twin "optimum" operating/shifting range. The claimed 40% torque increase for the 1330 over the 998 doesn't even happen up in the 4500 RPM range - there it is about 25% more: the area where you may get a 40% increase in torque may be down in the 2000 RPM range (if BRP chanced to measure torque at that low RPM for the Twin 998). The exaggerated scale for Torque from 55 to 100 ft-lb sure looks dramatic though.

[monkeyboymorton]

I had a search for 'rpm' in the work shop manual last night to see if I could find any reference to driving habits and rpm range. There aren't any.

It does say that the clutch starts to engage at 1100 rpm and is fully engaged at 1800rpm.

The only thing I found which sort of supports what the mechanic was saying is that the engine reaches max oil pressure at 4000rpm. No mention of any potential clutch damage if running below that oil pressure though.

Does anyone have access to BRP service bulletins and could check if this is something issued recently?

[stebrock]

I had a search for 'rpm' in the work shop manual last night to see if I could find any reference to driving habits and rpm range. There aren't any.

It does say that the clutch starts to engage at 1100 rpm and is fully engaged at 1800rpm.

The only thing I found which sort of supports what the mechanic was saying is that the engine reaches max oil pressure at 4000rpm. No mention of any potential clutch damage if running below that oil pressure though.

Does anyone have access to BRP service bulletins and could check if this is something issued recently?

So one last clarifier.
The mechanic was WRONG. He was basing his "advice" on the 998 clutch which doesn't fully engage until approximately 3200 rpm. Therefore if I was riding around at less than 3000 rpm the clutch, in his mind, would be "slipping" which could result in overheating and excessive wear.
As per the above mentioned shop manual the 1330 is fully engaged by 1800 rpm. Done deal. No concern for clutch wear when riding around at 2000 to 3000 rpm.

The previous posts concerning "lugging" is a separate issue and is bad for the engine not the clutch.

[Road-Kill]

So I just got my first full service oil change at 3,000 miles on my 2016 F3L. When he finished the mechanic came out and gave me the results. Everything was good he said but I need to give you some advice. The printout shows that you have a lot of run time less than 3,000 rpm. I said yes most of my driving is around town going 35 - 40 mph (900 out of my 3000 miles at interstate speeds). He said well you need to hold off shifting until at least 3500 - 4000 rpm. So I said why? He informs me that by shifting at the "lower" rpms and continuing to ride at less than 3000 rpm (I actually shift gears @ 3000 - 3500 normally) I'm preventing sufficient oil pressure build up to fully engage all the plates in the clutch. This allows slippage and the heat build up can cause warping and early clutch wear out.

So thinking he's giving me advice for the 998 and not wanting to tell him he's wrong I said "well I know on the 998 the clutch didn't engage until around 3200 rpm but the 1330 engages around 1100rpm. Also if you select ECO Mode (I don't) it recommends shifting around 2200 rpm. So what you're telling me doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So without even considering what I had just said He said "well all I can tell you is what BRP tells me to recommend". I could see I wasn't getting anywhere and decided to let it go. He was getting that "I can't believe you're questioning me" look in his eyes.

And to clarify none of the discussion was concerning varying rpm during the break in period.
Rick

Had my 3000 mile (actually it was done around 3800 miles) service a few days ago. Cost by the dealer was just under $200.00 USD and I noticed they plugged my bike to their computer. No leaks, no hassle and no info on my riding.