My 600 Mile Service Results – Your opinion?

[Tom in NM]

My 2008 SE5 Spyder went into a local dealership for its 600 Mile Service and overall, I was disappointed and will not use them again unless I have to. I did not like how they operated, but a lot of service departments operate the same way – smiles, polite to the max, but the only information you get is what you see on the bill and the Service Rep’s explanation, not the person who worked on the bike or car. But, this is how it works, it is their shop, employees and business – I just don’t like it.

Going in, with a little over 20 hours and 612 miles (and no error codes), I had 3 observations:
1) The gas gauge and Fuel Empty Indicator light comes on, but when I fill it up, it just takes 3 gallons of gas.
2) When I am driving around the city and sometimes after rides over 20 miles or more, when I come to a stop, there is a smell of gas. About half the time, it is EXTREME, dizziness/headache inducing extreme. People in other cars stopped next to me at stoplights ( asking about the Spyder ) have noticed it.
3) After I hit 400 miles, the Spyder started creeping. RPM is stable at 15k, but it can get up to about 8 mph on a flat surface. Light brake holds it though, no surging or pull.

I waited while the work was performed. 2.7 hours ( at $67.00 per hour ), $117.25 in Parts and a “other” $14.69, I got the Spyder back.

The invoice showed:
They REPLACED the oil, oil filters, O rings and the drain crush washers.

They INSPECTED the hydraulic control filer, engine coolant level, fault codes, fuel filter, spark plugs, drive belt wear, drive belt alignment, drive belt tension, front wheel nuts torque, rear wheel nuts torque, suspension arms, brake fluid level, brake pads, brake rotors, parking break operation.

They CLEANED the oil tank strainer.

They LUBRICATED the suspension arms.

They ADJUSTED the drive belt and parking break.

They also noted that the oil should be inspected every 300 miles.

As far as my observations, the invoice says;
“The gasoline smell is due to a automotive style emissions carbon canister designed to capture fumes and excess gasoline from the fuel tank. The smell is noted when the solenoid opens to allow fumes to enter the air box and be burned when the engine reaches operating temperature.” The service rep told me this is natural and “ just how it works, you will get used to it.”
For the Fuel gauge; “The reserve has a very large ‘AVERAGE’ of 1.5 to 2.5 gallons – this is normal for this machine.” The service rep commented that; “ the Spyder has a 5 gallon tank and all motorcycle gas gauges are not that accurate – it is just how they work.”

For the ‘creeping’; “the creeping is caused by the transmission and belt “break-in” The unit will do this until approximately 2000 miles according to the manufacturer”

None of this matches my understanding.
1) Automotive emission canisters do not emit extreme fuel fumes unless they are defective.
2) The Spyder has (according to the info BRP publishes) has a 6.6 gallon fuel tank. A 50+% error ratio is worse than any of the 12 motorcycles I have ever owned. Actually, it seems to consistently and very accurately indicate when I have used 3 gallons of fuel.
3) I am OK with this explanation – it is not exactly accurate, but the issue is minor to me and I can wait through 2000 miles for it to work itself out. I will watch it, but as I said, OK. Given the rate I ride, I will be well over 2000 before this time next month.

As far as the gas gauge goes, next week I will take the Spyder panels off and check the wiring ( as the Maintenance Manual suggests ) and see if the wires are OK. This is an irritation, but since I do a lot of riding where gas stations can be few and far-between, it could cause a real problem on some of the Winter and 110 degree Summer rides I take.

I am most concerned about the fuel fumes. They are exceptional – I never smell that much fuel even when at a gas station. I seem to be getting around 35 mpg and I do not overfill the gas tank. My brother, father, and grandfather are all Bodyshop owners. I have worked in all their shops – so I think I know what is ‘normal’ or not. I have never smelt anything run this rich.

Any of your suggestions or observations would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom

[mike3069]

The fuel gauge on the Spyder works pretty much like you observed. To get more gas in you have to "top it off" SEVERAL times, pulling the nozzel out to where it is even with the lip on the top of the fill hole, then letting it settle a bit in between top ups. When the light comes on on mine, there is at least 50 miles worth of gas left in the tank.If I fill up when the light comes on and DON"T top up, it will take about 3-3 1/2 gals. The most gas I have ever put in was 5.9 gals. after over 200 miles.

So, according to my experience, your gauge is working "nominally" and not malfunctioning. It takes some experimenting to figure out how to interpret it. I can always get at least 180 miles from a tank and I just reset my #2 trip every time I fill up. This works for me.

Others have reported the gas fumes, but I have not noticed it on mine (I tend to have a very insensitive nose however).

The creeping has also been reported in other threads here (I have an SM5 so don't have this ), with various results for "cures". Search around for a bit and see what others have to say.

[Firefly]

If you 'top off' the Spyder you run the risk of getting liquid gas into the evap canister - which will then smell like gas. This is what BRP has said is the cause of most gas smells--- overfilling of the gas tank.

I find that if I put the end of the nozzle about 1/2" down into the tank and then let it auto-stop then my guage reads full. I couldn't tell you how many gallons that takes - but full is full on the guage. Takes a few minutes for it to register as full as the gas settles. You very well may have plenty more gas left once on the last bar - but that really shouldn't matter- you know you're going to need to fill up sometime soon anyhow.

As far as the rest of your problems - seems your dealer is a bit lacking in the knowledge department - but that just might be the person they let you talk to.

$67 an hour is a deal - mine charges $89.

You should get (might have to ask) a complete printout from their computer system showing everything they did to the Spyder. If mine didn't offer it I would demand it.

I would have them replace the gas canister (many have had this done under warranty) and then just be careful not to over-fill the tank. That might fix the problem for you.

[Tom in NM]

If you 'top off' the Spyder you run the risk of getting liquid gas into the evap canister - which will then smell like gas. This is what BRP has said is the cause of most gas smells--- overfilling of the gas tank.

Thanks Firefly, but no I am not overfilling the tank - I do not top it off. I have checked with a flashlight and the gas appears to be well below the opening.

I do think that showing empty when it is not even half empty is pretty sloppy engineering or implementation. For example why have all those bars when they don't mean anything?

thanks again, time to ride . . .
Tom

[bjt]

Thanks Firefly, but no I am not overfilling the tank - I do not top it off. I have checked with a flashlight and the gas appears to be well below the opening.

I do think that showing empty when it is not even half empty is pretty sloppy engineering or implementation. For example why have all those bars when they don't mean anything?

thanks again, time to ride . . .
Tom

If you stop filling when the nozzle first clicks off and you have the nozzle inserted into the hole a couple of inches, thats why you are only able to put 3 gallons in it during a fill up. I don't go to the extreme of some people by carefully filling it right to the brim with gas but I do only insert the nozzle to just inside the hole, fill fairly slowly and stop when a few drops of gas fly out of the two small vent holes in the filler neck. That gets the level almost up to the filler hole and my gas gauge reads completely full (even the small half bar at the very top is lit). Depending on how low I run the tank, that gets me around 5 + gallons per fillup. If you fill up your tank and the gauge doesn't register on all the bars, then you're not truly filling it up.

[Dudley]

We got our SE5 in November, 2008. I got a few gas fumes at first, but now have 8000 miles and no fumes.
The creap on the transmission seems to be somewhat common with the SE5. If you apply your footbrake while you're stopped and it wants to creep, blip the throttle. This apparently releases the clutch and it won't creep. Some have used the 1st to N to 1st switch, but one time mine would not go back into 1st right away, so I stopped that method. I changed to Royal Purple Max Cycle Motorcycle Oil 10W40 and have NEVER creaped again. If you are interested I wrote a review on the oil in the General section, about a month ago.
I believe in regards to the gas gage, it will just take some getting used to. I believe yours is working properly. It will just take some observations when you fill up to help you understand it better.

For the ‘creeping’; “the creeping is caused by the transmission and belt “break-in” The unit will do this until approximately 2000 miles according to the manufacturer” In my case, the mileage had nothing to do with the Spyder creaping or not. It was creeping all the way to 5400 when I changed to Royal Purple. I am stating my history, not saying that what he told you is wrong.

[Tom in NM]

If you stop filling when the nozzle first clicks off and you have the nozzle inserted into the hole a couple of inches, thats why you are only able to put 3 gallons in it during a fill up. I don't go to the extreme of some people by carefully filling it right to the brim with gas but I do only insert the nozzle to just inside the hole, fill fairly slowly and stop when a few drops of gas fly out of the two small vent holes in the filler neck. That gets the level almost up to the filler hole and my gas gauge reads completely full (even the small half bar at the very top is lit). Depending on how low I run the tank, that gets me around 5 + gallons per fillup. If you fill up your tank and the gauge doesn't register on all the bars, then you're not truly filling it up.

Whenever I fill up when it is showing empty and the indicator light comes on, all the bars become solid, but it has never taken more than 3.5 gallons. Given the altitude and temperature variations that I can drive through - I would never fill the tank to the vent holes.
This inaccuracy in the gas gauge is a "little" thing, but there are times and places I drive 60 miles without seeing a gas station. Maybe I have a pilot or boat captain mentality on this, because + or - 50% is not an acceptable measurement to travel by. The next time I have the Spyder apart, I will drain the gas and see just how much it holds and then do the mileage math like Mike3036 does. That will work, but given the technology employed on the Spyder, that is pretty cheesy.

As far as the creeping, as I said, no real big deal for me. It is nothing aggressive or difficult to manage. It is not unlike what is experienced driving a car. It also does not happen all the time - I have come to miss it when it does not happen. I will wait and see how it progresses and I may consider a different in-spec brand when I change the oil next time.

[bjt]

Whenever I fill up when it is showing empty and the indicator light comes on, all the bars become solid, but it has never taken more than 3.5 gallons. Given the altitude and temperature variations that I can drive through - I would never fill the tank to the vent holes.
This inaccuracy in the gas gauge is a "little" thing, but there are times and places I drive 60 miles without seeing a gas station. Maybe I have a pilot or boat captain mentality on this, because + or - 50% is not an acceptable measurement to travel by. The next time I have the Spyder apart, I will drain the gas and see just how much it holds and then do the mileage math like Mike3036 does. That will work, but given the technology employed on the Spyder, that is pretty cheesy.

As far as the creeping, as I said, no real big deal for me. It is nothing aggressive or difficult to manage. It is not unlike what is experienced driving a car. It also does not happen all the time - I have come to miss it when it does not happen. I will wait and see how it progresses and I may consider a different in-spec brand when I change the oil next time.

Thats definitely not right. Sounds like your gas gauge is reading low fuel when you still have at least two gallons left. Too bad the dealership isn't figuring this out for you.

[mike3069]

Whenever I fill up when it is showing empty and the indicator light comes on, all the bars become solid, but it has never taken more than 3.5 gallons.

Tom, how many miles are you driving before filling up?

[GaryTheBadger]

Your service dept is wrong on the creeping issue. BRP has already formally acknowledged its a known problem and they are working on it. If it was due to break-in period (belt break-in is realted to the centrifugal clutch problems...they really said that?!), then it would start from mile zero, but instead it seems to start around mile 300. I'll tell you if it goes away when I reach 2000 miles, but I bet it won't. My next oil change I will use Royal Purple and see if that fixes it.

[Firefly]

Whenever I fill up when it is showing empty and the indicator light comes on, all the bars become solid, but it has never taken more than 3.5 gallons. Given the altitude and temperature variations that I can drive through - I would never fill the tank to the vent holes.
This inaccuracy in the gas gauge is a "little" thing, but there are times and places I drive 60 miles without seeing a gas station. Maybe I have a pilot or boat captain mentality on this, because + or - 50% is not an acceptable measurement to travel by. The next time I have the Spyder apart, I will drain the gas and see just how much it holds and then do the mileage math like Mike3036 does. That will work, but given the technology employed on the Spyder, that is pretty cheesy.

As far as the creeping, as I said, no real big deal for me. It is nothing aggressive or difficult to manage. It is not unlike what is experienced driving a car. It also does not happen all the time - I have come to miss it when it does not happen. I will wait and see how it progresses and I may consider a different in-spec brand when I change the oil next time.

You could also take a small 1 gallon gas jug and fill it - put it in your trunk--- then when your empty light turns on - clear your trip odometer and ride the Spyder until it runs out of gas - this was you'll know for sure how many miles you can go once the light comes on. Use the extra gallon to get back to a station - and then fill her up and see how much it takes.

I've been thinking of doing this for quite some time now.

[M2Wild]

If you just stick the fuel nozzle fully into the tank like you do with cars, then the tip of the nozzle is at least 3-4 inches in the tank. When the fuel reaches that point, it will trip and shut itself off before you fully fill the tank.

I found the suggestion of keeping the tip barely inside the fill neck and stop when you see a little bit of splash coming out of the breather hole works perfectly. I get all the bars on the guage to lite including that little triangle at the top.

[jima1153]

I have also noticed a gas smell. Mine smells like my snowmobile fumes used to smell that would get in my snomo suite, but that was a 2 cycle??? I notice it most when I come home and am backing it into the garage.

[Tom in NM]

Tom, how many miles are you driving before filling up?

Mike, it is usually a little around 110 miles before the light comes on and I fill it up. I attached a snapshot of part of a spreadsheet that I am using to track my mileage.

Usually, when the light comes on, I stop at the first gas station I see. I fill it up until the pump clicks off ( the nozzle is inserted to the resting point of the tank opening as is recommended ) All the bars on the fuel gauge are showing solid.

Tom
-----------------------------------------------
The tank is half full or half empty????????

[mike3069]

Mike, it is usually a little around 110 miles before the light comes on and I fill it up. I attached a snapshot of part of a spreadsheet that I am using to track my mileage.

Usually, when the light comes on, I stop at the first gas station I see. I fill it up until the pump clicks off ( the nozzle is inserted to the resting point of the tank opening as is recommended ) All the bars on the fuel gauge are showing solid.

Tom
-----------------------------------------------
The tank is half full or half empty????????

I'm thinking that when my light comes on. I'm around 150 - 160 miles. The light comes on when it switches to 1 Bar. After the last bar is GONE ( about 190-200 miles) there is still usable fuel in the tank. I do pull the nozzel out to where it is even with the metal baffle in the filler and then top up 'till it spits out the little vents in the baffle.


BTW, I like your Sig.!!!

[Tom in NM]

Mike, the light came on today and I filled it up, 3 gallons for 114 miles (38 mpg).

Given my riding conditions where in a day, the temperatures can range from 50 to 100 F and the altitude can range from the norm of 5,000 foot to over 7,000 or down to 4,500 I think I have to really watch filling it to the brim and only doing that in certain conditions.

Also, since I am having an issue with what I call extreme gas fumes when I am sitting at a light, I am going to pass on packing in the gas.

Firefly, I am also going to pass on your suggestion that I carry a full gas can in the trunk. Given the conditions I mentioned above, I would hate to infringe upon your name by becoming known as FireBall!

This gauge thing is just an irksome issue. I would be satisfied with a indicator that comes on when there is only a gallon left in the tank. But to have a gauge that shows empty when it is still half full is just sloppy. I am very surprised that there are not more people bothered by it.

Still love the bike and I am addicted to putting miles on it.

Tom

[NancysToy]

I'm thinking that when my light comes on. I'm around 150 - 160 miles. The light comes on when it switches to 1 Bar. After the last bar is GONE ( about 190-200 miles) there is still usable fuel in the tank. I do pull the nozzel out to where it is even with the metal baffle in the filler and then top up 'till it spits out the little vents in the baffle.

I fill the same way. Gas smell on ours is worse when the tank is low, after a long, hot ride. Wish I could get 150-160 miles, though. Our fills are at more like 120-130. At 150-160 this thing will suck down over six gallons of gas. I have mileage envy!
-Scotty

[Tom in NM]

I fill the same way. Gas smell on ours is worse when the tank is low, after a long, hot ride. Wish I could get 150-160 miles, though. Our fills are at more like 120-130. At 150-160 this thing will suck down over six gallons of gas. I have mileage envy!
-Scotty

Yes, the fumes do seem to be worse when I hit the half tank level and after a long run and then go through stop and go traffic. Though today, with the outside temp showing 101 and 4 bars on the heat gauge, there were some fumes, but nothing like I had experienced.
One possible explanation may be that when I was experiencing the worst of the fumes, I had some premium gas in the Spyder ( the station was out of 88 octane ) when I had filled up. That was also when I was getting my worse mileage. There may be a connection - I can think of points on both sides of that speculation. But maybe it is like you being put on that starvation diet - to much caloric intake may degrade and choke the Spyder too.

I hope you are feeling better and your mileage increases - and your Spyder too.
Tom
( I don't know about you, but I ride alone and am a short guy around 145#, not much for a Spyder to carry and my bike is all stock. )

[Dudley]

Mike, the light came on today and I filled it up, 3 gallons for 114 miles (38 mpg).

Given my riding conditions where in a day, the temperatures can range from 50 to 100 F and the altitude can range from the norm of 5,000 foot to over 7,000 or down to 4,500 I think I have to really watch filling it to the brim and only doing that in certain conditions.

Also, since I am having an issue with what I call extreme gas fumes when I am sitting at a light, I am going to pass on packing in the gas.

Firefly, I am also going to pass on your suggestion that I carry a full gas can in the trunk. Given the conditions I mentioned above, I would hate to infringe upon your name by becoming known as FireBall!

This gauge thing is just an irksome issue. I would be satisfied with a indicator that comes on when there is only a gallon left in the tank. But to have a gauge that shows empty when it is still half full is just sloppy. I am very surprised that there are not more people bothered by it.

Still love the bike and I am addicted to putting miles on it.

Tom

I don't know if this is your first bike or not. I guess the reason that not more people are bothered about the gas gage is because we use it as an indicator showing us it's time to buy some gasoline. If you have never pushed a motorcycle or Spyder because you ran out of gas because you just had to get that last drop before you stopped, then that may be why the indicators on the Spyder bothers you so much. Enjoy your Spyder, put gas in it whenever you feel like it. There's a lot more to the Spyder than a gas gage.

[Trickie Dick]

I fill the same way. Gas smell on ours is worse when the tank is low, after a long, hot ride. Wish I could get 150-160 miles, though. Our fills are at more like 120-130. At 150-160 this thing will suck down over six gallons of gas. I have mileage envy!
-Scotty

+1 on this.

[skeet]

When I bought my Spyder, the nearest dealer was 700 miles. By the time I needed my first service, there was a dealer in Kansas City,250 miles away. I contacted them twice and asked about their ability to properly service the spyder and was assured they were qualified, so I made an appointment for service. To my dismay, they not know the proper procedure for changing the oil, and when challanged, they offered to do it over-this time by the manual.
My suggestion (as I did) is to ask to speak to the person that will do the service, and ask several questions (that you know the answers to) such as the CORRECT procedure for the oil change, how much oil does the bike require, what is the proper belt tension and how is it determined, and what the tire pressures should be for the average rider.
There are now 3 "Dealers" within 100 miles, and by asking these questions, I found only 1 Tech that could answer these simple questions. The fact that they have a Dealer License does NOT mean they have thorough knowledge of this bike. The Service Manuals are expensive, but the information you need is there.
I have 14,500 almost trouble free miles on mine in 1 year. I replaced the rear tire @ 12,000 and the gear position sensor. That's it. Good Luck and "Don't ride faster than your Angel can fly"

[Tom in NM]

Dudley, your right - it is my personal wiring that makes this a irritation to me. I have ridden motorcycles since the mid-60s. While I had to reach down and open the reserve tank lots of times, I only ran out of gas once ( the empty indicator bulb had burned out and the bike had no reserve tank ) That was more than an inconvenience and I have never forgotten it. My Spyders room-mate is a BMW F650GS (which also just has a fuel low indicator light) and I take it well off the beaten path. But, I try and never drive anything lower than a quarter of a tank.
I will get over/adjust to the Spyder's gauge or somehow get it fixed. To me, on such a well designed and executed machine - it is strange to me this is so screwy.
( by the way, great post on your trip and the great time you had )
Tom

[bjt]

...I am very surprised that there are not more people bothered by it...

Not everyone is seeing the same thing that you are with your gas gauge. When my tank gets to one bar and the warning light comes on, I fill up and get 4.5 - 5.5 gallons in the tank.

[Tom in NM]

Skeet I agree 100%
The guy working on the Spyder seemed to know his stuff - at least enough to change the oil. He was the only person in the shop who could work on them.

Even before I bought the Spyder, I got a PDF copy of the maintenance manual so I would know as much a I could. The bottomline is that Spyders are VERY complex and I agree, there cannot be many great mechanics deeply qualified to work on them.

I hope I have your experiences with reliability, because I really enjoy riding the Spyder and plan to do it for years.

Tom

[Dudley]

Dudley, your right - it is my personal wiring that makes this a irritation to me. I have ridden motorcycles since the mid-60s. While I had to reach down and open the reserve tank lots of times, I only ran out of gas once ( the empty indicator bulb had burned out and the bike had no reserve tank ) That was more than an inconvenience and I have never forgotten it. My Spyders room-mate is a BMW F650GS (which also just has a fuel low indicator light) and I take it well off the beaten path. But, I try and never drive anything lower than a quarter of a tank.
I will get over/adjust to the Spyder's gauge or somehow get it fixed. To me, on such a well designed and executed machine - it is strange to me this is so screwy.
( by the way, great post on your trip and the great time you had )
Tom

You and I started riding about the same time. I ran out of gas one time, at night, and pushed a bit (no gas gage in 1962). I remember the reserve valve well. One time on the Interstate I was too ingrossed in the scenery to watch the gas gage on my Venture and the light came on in between there and nowhere. All I could do was take a deep breath and hope. I made it, but now when I am on long trips, I fill up with 2 or 3 bars left! Gives me a chance to unkink the muscles, take my helmet off and let my head get some fresh air, grab a coke, etc. Time to smell the roses.