F3 sprocket question - which lube/paste is best when re-fitting?

I just had my front sprocket replaced today for the 3rd time on my 2015. The second sprocket only lasted for about 5000 miles. The dealer that replaced my 2nd sprocket used Kluberpaste 46 MR 401. The different dealer that I used today used Loctite 660. I researched both products on the internet but my limited expertise couldn’t tell me which product was better. I have also heard of moly paste. Any metallurgy experts out there that could give an opinion on which is best? It seems as though BRP is trying different lubricants or pastes to see if something sticks to permanently solve this problem.

Well, they are two different products that do two different things. The Loctite product is a retaining "glue" if you will, while the Kluber stuff is a high pressure lubricant. The high pressure
lubricant would be my choice. Part of the uses of Loctite is to secure an item to another item. When you look at the sprocket/shaft mating area, you will get some movement, just the nature
of the beast, if nothing else you get some side-to-side movement of the sprocket on the shaft. The high pressure lubricant will keep the movement from damaging the moving parts, just like
a lubricant is supposed to do.

Seems to me your dealer now feels the shaft is damaged enough that he feels the need to try to keep the sprocket from moving on the shaft. And that simply won't happen. Not with the forces
involved with the shaft, drive sprocket, and driven sprocket. You probably need to talk to the dealer and find out why he feels he needs to try and keep the sprocket from moving. Perhaps there's an alignment problem
between the rear wheel and the drive sprocket, or too much axial movement by the sprocket on the shaft, or splines worn/improperly machined allowing too much rotational play on the shaft.

Definitely time for a good ol' heart-to-heart with your dealer.

Lamonster recommends Loctite 648. Came from BRP Tech with 20yrs experience

FWIW the service manual makes no mention of any retaining or locking compounds. Or anti-seize either as far as that goes.

Loctite 660 is very similar to 648.

I'll have to admit it seems strange to me, as I've never put anything but an anti-seize type product on a drive sprocket shaft.
But the Spyder is certainly different in lots of ways.

It seems to me that with this the third sprocket and dealerships trying multiple compounds to prevent another sprocket failure it's time to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with a dealership about replacing the clutch shaft before it eats sprocket #3 and before your B.E.S.T. extended warranty expires.

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Originally Posted by Possible

Well, they are two different products that do two different things. The Loctite product is a retaining "glue" if you will, while the Kluber stuff is a high pressure lubricant. The high pressure
lubricant would be my choice. Part of the uses of Loctite is to secure an item to another item. When you look at the sprocket/shaft mating area, you will get some movement, just the nature
of the beast, if nothing else you get some side-to-side movement of the sprocket on the shaft. The high pressure lubricant will keep the movement from damaging the moving parts, just like
a lubricant is supposed to do.

Seems to me your dealer now feels the shaft is damaged enough that he feels the need to try to keep the sprocket from moving on the shaft. And that simply won't happen. Not with the forces
involved with the shaft, drive sprocket, and driven sprocket. You probably need to talk to the dealer and find out why he feels he needs to try and keep the sprocket from moving. Perhaps there's an alignment problem
between the rear wheel and the drive sprocket, or too much axial movement by the sprocket on the shaft, or splines worn/improperly machined allowing too much rotational play on the shaft.

Definitely time for a good ol' heart-to-heart with your dealer.

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just because its branded Loctite doesn't mean its a retaining "glue". Loctite 8012 is 65% Moly and is more anti seize than glue. i used this on my pulley when replaced at 10k miles. The process is called fretting when 2 metals rub against each other like the sprocket and output shaft and the paste is designed to protect the metals from breaking down, not locking them together.
https://www.tom-parker.co.uk/upload/...e_file-190.pdf

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Originally Posted by Bottomline2000

just because its branded Loctite doesn't mean its a retaining "glue". Loctite 8012 is 65% Moly and is more anti seize than glue. i used this on my pulley when replaced at 10k miles. The process is called fretting when 2 metals rub against each other like the sprocket and output shaft and the paste is designed to protect the metals from breaking down, not locking them together.
https://www.tom-parker.co.uk/upload/...e_file-190.pdf

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This is all true, but the Locktite product that we were referring to, Loctite 660, is indeed a retaining product, and used to keep bearings, sprockets, and such in place on a shaft.
I worked 40 years in the manufacturing business and am well aware of what fretting is, which is why I commented on, what seemed to me, the oddness of using a retaining product
on the front sprocket, where I would use an anti-seize like product.

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Originally Posted by Possible

This is all true, but the Locktite product that we were referring to, Loctite 660, is indeed a retaining product, and used to keep bearings, sprockets, and such in place on a shaft.
I worked 40 years in the manufacturing business and am well aware of what fretting is, which is why I commented on, what seemed to me, the oddness of using a retaining product
on the front sprocket, where I would use an anti-seize like product.

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Noted, just pointing this out as most people associate loctite with just being a locking compound. I agree with you though..no way those 2 parts will not have any movement..nature of the beast. Hopefully they can just play along nicely with the right lubricant. Im hoping the high moly content makes it more of a service every other rear tire thing and not catastrophic failure.

you say 'use this', he says 'use that', Lamonte recommends another....

my question is: WHY HASN'T BRP "FIX THIS DARN PROBLEM?"

this issue has been around for over 5 yrs, i had my 1st replaced on my 2015 F3 way back in 2016, and i'm going in this Monday for another on my 2019 with only 4400 miles on her... we've all heard of dozens, if not HUNDREDS of these junk sprockets going south... BRP, GET OFF YOUR BUTTS AND GET TO WORK....
Dan
Easley, SC

Look at the fire bomb 2013 RTs. Perhaps it's time to start writing to NTSB, CPSC or some other of Uncle Dudley's gang that can rattle BRP's cage real good. I have a good friend who's concerned his is going to s**t the bed somewhere out on the far side of beyond although to date everything looks fine on inspection.

This is what you need:

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-23422...DV225K9KDMV3Y9

or this (could be the same formulation, but more expensive):

https://www.amazon.com/Anti-Seize-Mo...PRZPRV3BCTMZXC

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Originally Posted by DerSpyGuy

This is what you need:

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-23422...DV225K9KDMV3Y9

or this (could be the same formulation, but more expensive):

https://www.amazon.com/Anti-Seize-Mo...PRZPRV3BCTMZXC

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NO NO NO.....
DO NOT GIVE BRP a reason to VOID your WARRANTEE.....
i just spoke with my dealer, and he advise me to go with the recommended 'paste' that BRP is saying will cure the problem; KLUBERPASTE 46 MR401, is what is recommended... my dealer informed me that they had to cut a spline in half because the wrong material was applied... he also stated that the K-paste may need to be applied occasionally... i would think @ each rear tire change...
just my opinion.... but well all know how that goes...
Dan P
SPYD3R

Yes, but my previous sprocket was applied with Kluberpaste and it lasted less than 5000 miles. The dealer that replaced it yesterday used Loctite 660. So it seems that different dealers are using different products to stop the fretting. I can’t see how using Loctite would void my warranty if a dealer used it! By trying different lubricants/pastes, it seems dealers are trying different substances to see if the problem can be permanently solved.

Gee, having to "periodically" reapply the paste is another crap out by BRP. Yeah, if one had to do it every time one changed a rear tire that's sweet, giving a dealership the opportunity to clip the owner a bit more in addition to the tire change. How will BRP define "periodically"? In my book that's setting up an owner for a financial fall if the periodicity is not followed. Dan has the only acceptable answer, fix the bloody problem!

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Originally Posted by JayBros

Gee, having to "periodically" reapply the paste is another crap out by BRP. Yeah, if one had to do it every time one changed a rear tire that's sweet, giving a dealership the opportunity to clip the owner a bit more in addition to the tire change. How will BRP define "periodically"? In my book that's setting up an owner for a financial fall if the periodicity is not followed. Dan has the only acceptable answer, fix the bloody problem!

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:agree: .... this is right in line with " periodic " ( ie.14,000 mi. ) valve adjustments for the V-Twin engine. I know members that have gone 100,000 + miles and their valves didn't need adjustment ....... Mike :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by SPYD3R

NO NO NO.....
DO NOT GIVE BRP a reason to VOID your WARRANTEE.....
i just spoke with my dealer, and he advise me to go with the recommended 'paste' that BRP is saying will cure the problem; KLUBERPASTE 46 MR401, is what is recommended... my dealer informed me that they had to cut a spline in half because the wrong material was applied... he also stated that the K-paste may need to be applied occasionally... i would think @ each rear tire change...
just my opinion.... but well all know how that goes...
Dan P
SPYD3R

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You're merely parroting the dealer's BS. Which spline did they have to cut in half? One on the shaft or the pulley? I suppose your dealer has the ability to perform a molecular analysis of the offending Loctite moly 'paste', comparing it to the Kluberpaste, in order to void your warranty? Utter BS, INMNSHO.

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Originally Posted by DerSpyGuy

You're merely parroting the dealer's BS. Which spline did they have to cut in half? One on the shaft or the pulley? I suppose your dealer has the ability to perform a molecular analysis of the offending Loctite moly 'paste', comparing it to the Kluberpaste, in order to void your warranty? Utter BS, INMNSHO.

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Well, it would be very easy to tell the difference between the Loctite 660-type of paste, and the Kluberpaste.

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Originally Posted by Possible

Well, it would be very easy to tell the difference between the Loctite 660-type of paste, and the Kluberpaste.

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Ya got me on that one. Didn't realize one was lithium and the other was moly.

I have 77,000+ miles on my 2015 F3-S. I'm currently on my 5th sprocket. The original sprocket lasted 16,500 miles. I had a dealership replace it and it only lasted 6000 miles. Several emails and calls to BRP on the issue after that one. Since the the second sprocket had been replaced, I check the sprocket bolt every weekend to verify it is tight. I have been using a moly paste on the drive shaft and Locktite 660 on the bolt. As long as the bolt stays tight, I can get about 15,000-17,000 out of a sprocket before it has to be replaced. I always have a spare sprocket on hand ($135). Don't like the issue but having to live with it.

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Originally Posted by SpyderF3-s

I have 77,000+ miles on my 2015 F3-S. I'm currently on my 5th sprocket...I always have a spare sprocket on hand ($135). Don't like the issue but having to live with it.

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You, sir, have far more patience than I. I really like and enjoy my Spyder, but five sprockets and I would have long since gone on to something else although off the top of my head I can't say to what.

Has anyone ever used a long enough straight edge to reach from the front sprocket to the rear sprocket to check the physical alignment of the two?

I absolutely agree with the sentiment voiced above. I've ridden tons of miles on bikes and never had to replace a countershaft sprocket due to excessive wear on
the splines. To me that screams that there's a problem that isn't being addressed. I wonder if the semi-automatic Spyders have a higher or lower replacement rate
than the manual ones. Or the twins more than the triples.

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Originally Posted by DerSpyGuy

Ya got me on that one. Didn't realize one was lithium and the other was moly.

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I don't know about the makeup of the two, but the Loctite will be solid, and the Kluberpaste will still be a soft greasy
consistency.

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Originally Posted by SpyderF3-s

I have 77,000+ miles on my 2015 F3-S. I'm currently on my 5th sprocket. The original sprocket lasted 16,500 miles. I had a dealership replace it and it only lasted 6000 miles. Several emails and calls to BRP on the issue after that one. Since the the second sprocket had been replaced, I check the sprocket bolt every weekend to verify it is tight. I have been using a moly paste on the drive shaft and Locktite 660 on the bolt. As long as the bolt stays tight, I can get about 15,000-17,000 out of a sprocket before it has to be replaced. I always have a spare sprocket on hand ($135). Don't like the issue but having to live with it.

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:lecturef_smilie: something is very , very wrong here .... are you sure the dealer ACTUALLY put on New sprockets ??? .... waaaaaaaaaaaay back when BRP had a re-call on DPS units, mine was working fine at the time .... I didn't trust my dealer ..... so I marked up the DPS and brought it in without some tupperware so I could see the DPS ..... The Dealer or Tech had a conniption .... and then added two quarts of oil :gaah:, which meant it was now TWO qts. too much. .... Never went back to that dealer. Well actually I did, but I can't tell you why, even if the Statute of limitations has been exceeded ... :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: ....................Mike :thumbup:

this issue has been around for over 5 yrs... Correct - it's been around since day 1.

Not that it's what I should have to do but I carry one with me when I travel. I don't want to be stuck out yonder at the mercy of the all too many incompetent dealerships.