DIY Safety Device to help prevent being rear ended

Here is a great video from the Goldwing Docs forum administrator. More and more cars on the road have Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) to avoid having the driver rear end the vehicle in front of him. The problem is motorcycles are not as readily visible to the AEB radar as is a car. WingAdmin shows how to make a simple radar reflector that greatly enhances the return radar beam the car's AEB utilizes.

https://youtu.be/0rKK5AHs1AQ

I haven't figured out yet how the best way would be to put one on an RT but I'll be working on it. If someone comes up with a solution please post it. We need to help keep each other safe out there!

Here's a link to the Goldwing Docs forum posting. https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewt...p?f=10&t=63779

So you could do the same thing he did and mount it in the large Saddle bag. Or mount it in the trunk. Very interesting idea. Thanks for posting. I got tired of the sales pitch so skipped to 7:33 where he starts describing what he did.

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Originally Posted by pegasus1300

..... I got tired of the sales pitch so skipped to 7:33 where he starts describing what he did.

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Dammit!! :banghead: Cos I'd originally skipped to 8:33 or thereabouts, when you posted that ^^, I thought I might've missed something important, so I went back to check it out - I hadn't missed anything! :gaah: . Then aaalllll the important stuff was over less than a couple of minutes later!! :shocked: . And some people say my posts are too long..... :p :rolleyes:

Still, it really is a good idea with more'n more cars being equipped with frontal collision assist that might miss our Spyder/Rykers cos they don't present a great reflective surface from behind :thumbup: . If anyone wants to read up on the theory of Corner Reflectors or more correctly, 'Trihedral or tetrahedral radar reflectors', check this out:

https://www.radartutorial.eu/17.bauteile/bt47.en.html

:cheers:

A great idea. I watched the video from 8:00 on. :yes:

WAY too many Youtubers pad out their videos to achieve the mandated minimum run lengths.

If I put one on my Spyder, first thing that would happen is a ticket from a radar gun speed trap.

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Originally Posted by Gwolf

If I put one on my Spyder, first thing that would happen is a ticket from a radar gun speed trap.

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In reverse???????????????

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

In reverse???????????????

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I have more than once come across where one leo sits in a spot where you don't see them until you go pass them. Then I will come across a group of Leo's further down the road who are picking up the speeders the first leo tagged from the back as they passed him.

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Originally Posted by PW2013STL

I have more than once come across where one leo sits in a spot where you don't see them until you go pass them. Then I will come across a group of Leo's further down the road who are picking up the speeders the first leo tagged from the back as they passed him.

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Oh! So -15 over! :spyder::roflblack::spyder:

I like the concept & will give some thought to size and location; not just on our Spyder but on my bikes as well. One question for any of you engineers with knowledge of radar/microwaves; what would be the minimum size of such a device that will still deliver the desired results?

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Originally Posted by cruisinTX

I like the concept & will give some thought to size and location; not just on our Spyder but on my bikes as well. One question for any of you engineers with knowledge of radar/microwaves; what would be the minimum size of such a device that will still deliver the desired results?

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I am setting here thinking about if our 2020 Ford Edge ST could test out this radar reflector. Guess I will have to study up on how it works regarding speed etc. Time to dig into the owners manual. Back in a few.

On edit:

Using the Pre-Collision Assist
System
The system is active at speeds above
approximately 3 mph (5 km/h) and
pedestrian detection is active at speeds
up to 50 mph (80 km/h).
E156130
If your vehicle is rapidly approaching
another stationary vehicle, a vehicle
traveling in the same direction as yours, or
a pedestrian within your driving path, the
system is designed to provide three levels
of functionality:
1. Alert
2. Brake Support
3. Active Braking

Alert: When active, a flashing visual
warning appears and an audible warning
tone sounds.

Brake Support: The system is designed
to help reduce the impact speed by
preparing the brakes for rapid braking.
Brake support does not automatically
apply the brakes. If you press the brake
pedal, the system could apply additional
braking up to maximum braking force, even
if you lightly press the brake pedal.

Active Braking: Active braking may
activate if the system determines that a
collision is imminent. The system may help
the driver reduce impact damage or avoid
the crash completely.

Note: Brake Support and Active Braking are
active at speeds up to 75 mph (120 km/h).
If the vehicle is equipped with a radar
sensor, included with Adaptive Cruise
Control, then Brake Support and Active
Braking are active up to the maximum speed
of the vehicle.

Note: If you perceive Pre-Collision Assist
alerts as being too frequent or disturbing,
then you can reduce the alert sensitivity,
though the manufacturer recommends
using the highest sensitivity setting where
possible. Setting lower sensitivity would
lead to fewer and later system warnings.

So it appears I could test this right on the street in front of our place. I have some silver HVAC duct tape. I will give it a try.

OK, here is step one. Coated inside and out. 4" on the three long sides.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

I am setting here thinking about if our 2020 Ford Edge ST could test out this radar reflector. Guess I will have to study up on how it works regarding speed etc. Time to dig into the owners manual. Back in a few.

On edit:

Using the Pre-Collision Assist
System
The system is active at speeds above
approximately 3 mph (5 km/h) and
pedestrian detection is active at speeds
up to 50 mph (80 km/h).
E156130
If your vehicle is rapidly approaching
another stationary vehicle, a vehicle
traveling in the same direction as yours, or
a pedestrian within your driving path, the
system is designed to provide three levels
of functionality:
1. Alert
2. Brake Support
3. Active Braking

Alert: When active, a flashing visual
warning appears and an audible warning
tone sounds.

Brake Support: The system is designed
to help reduce the impact speed by
preparing the brakes for rapid braking.
Brake support does not automatically
apply the brakes. If you press the brake
pedal, the system could apply additional
braking up to maximum braking force, even
if you lightly press the brake pedal.

Active Braking: Active braking may
activate if the system determines that a
collision is imminent. The system may help
the driver reduce impact damage or avoid
the crash completely.

Note: Brake Support and Active Braking are
active at speeds up to 75 mph (120 km/h).
If the vehicle is equipped with a radar
sensor, included with Adaptive Cruise
Control, then Brake Support and Active
Braking are active up to the maximum speed
of the vehicle.

Note: If you perceive Pre-Collision Assist
alerts as being too frequent or disturbing,
then you can reduce the alert sensitivity,
though the manufacturer recommends
using the highest sensitivity setting where
possible. Setting lower sensitivity would
lead to fewer and later system warnings.

So it appears I could test this right on the street in front of our place. I have some silver HVAC duct tape. I will give it a try.

OK, here is step one. Coated inside and out. 4" on the three long sides.

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Please do not drive over the mini wheats.

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

Please do not drive over the mini wheats.

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Well no workie, I drove at it at 15 MPH and mini wheats would have been rear ended. I changed the Pre-Collision setting from normal sensitivity to high with the same results. Guess I have to go drive at a parked car the same way and see what happens?

Snoking, please let us know the results of your testing with the Ford Edge. That way we will know if this triangle will work for Spyders. I hope it does .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

Well no workie, I drove at it at 15 MPH and mini wheats would have been rear ended. I changed the Pre-Collision setting from norm sensitivity to high with the same results. Guess I have to go drive at a parked car the same way and see what happens?

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Well I was a little too early with my reply. Where did you mount the refector?

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Originally Posted by Partzman23

Well I was a little too early with my reply. Where did you mount the refector?

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On the wheats box and drove right at it at 15MPH! It was at the same level as the sensor on the front of the Edge. That pre-collision is one of the things at Ford's free ST Experience driving school that you test. This is a free driving school for people that buy a Ford Explorer ST or Edge ST model. Diner and hotel, then the next day a road course in one of their SUVs, skid pad, pre-collision and they laps on a track.

OK, have to test it again. It appears the camera at the top of the windshield is in play also. I will set it up on my shop stool and try again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

OK, have to test it again. It appears the camera at the top of the windshield is in play also. I will set it up on my shop stool and try again.

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OK, shop stool is road kill!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snoking1127

OK, shop stool is road kill!

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I hope it wasn't a good one. :f_spider:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder

Here is a great video from the Goldwing Docs forum administrator. More and more cars on the road have Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) to avoid having the driver rear end the vehicle in front of him. The problem is motorcycles are not as readily visible to the AEB radar as is a car. WingAdmin shows how to make a simple radar reflector that greatly enhances the return radar beam the car's AEB utilizes.

https://youtu.be/0rKK5AHs1AQ

I haven't figured out yet how the best way would be to put one on an RT but I'll be working on it. If someone comes up with a solution please post it. We need to help keep each other safe out there!

Here's a link to the Goldwing Docs forum posting. https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewt...p?f=10&t=63779

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This is from another poster on here:

"Active Braking: Active braking may
activate if the system determines that a
collision is imminent. The system may help
the driver reduce impact damage or avoid
the crash completely."

For Active Braking, it states may activate. So, my question is: For those people who have this type of system in their cars/trucks, and don't seem to notice motorcycles anyway, do you think you'll be safe from their brain inactivity? Or, did I read the Active Braking statement wrong, and it will activate automatically, bypassing the brain dead auto/truck driver?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Aawen

Dammit!! :banghead: Cos I'd originally skipped to 8:33 or thereabouts, when you posted that ^^, I thought I might've missed something important, so I went back to check it out - I hadn't missed anything! :gaah: . Then aaalllll the important stuff was over less than a couple of minutes later!! :shocked: . And some people say my posts are too long..... :p :rolleyes:

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Peter,

Who would say such a thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wyliec

This is from another poster on here:

"Active Braking: Active braking may
activate if the system determines that a
collision is imminent. The system may help
the driver reduce impact damage or avoid
the crash completely."

For Active Braking, it states may activate. So, my question is: For those people who have this type of system in their cars/trucks, and don't seem to notice motorcycles anyway, do you think you'll be safe from their brain inactivity? Or, did I read the Active Braking statement wrong, and it will activate automatically, bypassing the brain dead auto/truck driver?

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That is what the video addresses, the fact a car AEB may not see a m/c. To improve the probability that it will see the m/c he recommends the tetrahedral reflector which will return to the car sensor a stronger radar signal than what the back of a m/c will.

I've had the AEB on my 2016 Maxima bring me to a complete stop with no intervention on my part. However, I have tested it only with the cruise control on and at less than about 40 mph. I guess I'm too scared to try it otherwise, unless I do it with a target that won't hurt the car if AEB does not do the job. And I think I just might do that. I really would like to know!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwolf

If I put one on my Spyder, first thing that would happen is a ticket from a radar gun speed trap.

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OK Stupid question time...... Why would aluminum dunce cap mounted in your trunk get you a ticket ???????
unless he pulled you over for speeding

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motorcycledave

OK Stupid question time...... Why would aluminum dunce cap mounted in your trunk get you a ticket ???????
unless he pulled you over for speeding

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I don't speed, I am just worried about the radar waves bouncing back and injuring the town constable behind the hedge, He has to work or the town can't pay the mayor, the constable, and keep the power bill for all 4 street lights paid up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwolf

I don't speed, I am just worried about the radar waves bouncing back and injuring the town constable behind the hedge, He has to work or the town can't pay the mayor, the constable, and keep the power bill for all 4 street lights paid up.

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I heard the teenage drivers in town plan to chain his rear diff to the tree he hides under, and then speed by!

Hmmmm, another thread that appears to have gone south!

I like this forum partly because it often gets me thinking about things I had not previously considered. I like the idea of making my spyder more visible to the radar built into many autos today, but not the idea of giving up storage space on my 2016 F3 L.

The following links are to products now available or being developed.

https://www.alliedelec.com/sensor-ac...%20Engineering

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bik...ar-reflectors/

I worked radar in the USAF and it's not the strength of a single return that matters, it's the cumulative signal return that triggers the AEB. So, I'm wondering if a fixed array system would also work. Here is my idea...Instead of a single large TriHedral, why not a "Sheet" of small ones? Imagine a surface covered with an array of small ones, like the surface of a rectangular reflector? I could knock one out on my mill using a 45 degree chamfer bit in some 1/4" or thicker Aluminum stock, hit it with some polishing compound, and then mount it below the license plate on my RT. My wife's Mitsubishi has the emergency braking system, so I could test it out using her car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frostbyte

I worked radar in the USAF and it's not the strength of a single return that matters, it's the cumulative signal return that triggers the AEB. So, I'm wondering if a fixed array system would also work. Here is my idea...Instead of a single large TriHedral, why not a "Sheet" of small ones? Imagine a surface covered with an array of small ones, like the surface of a rectangular reflector?

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That's what I was thinking. It wouldn't even have to be rigid since a tertrahedron will reflect straight back regardless of it's angle. That is to a certain degree likely maybe up to 30 to 45° from perpendicular of the bean hitting it. If I could find such an array about 1/2" to 1" thick a piece of it would fit quite nicely in the rear wall of the trunk below the latch.

I think you do want to as much as possible concentrate the return beam in a tight pattern. That is because the sender/receiver of the car's AEB radar is only about 3/4" to 1" diameter. On my 2016 Maxima there are only two of them in the front.

As someone else commented above there is a significant limitation when it comes to detecting motorcycles. Here's a quote from my 2016 Nissan Maxima Owner's Manual.

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(Illustration A) The predictive forward collision warning system does not function when a vehicle ahead is a narrow vehicle, such as a motorcycle.

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Now, if the receiver is looking for a wide beam to gauge the existence of an obstacle ahead, regardless of strength, as you're saying, then a single reflector won't help much. So even in spite of a good reflector we may be screwed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder

Here is a great video from the Goldwing Docs forum administrator. More and more cars on the road have Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) to avoid having the driver rear end the vehicle in front of him. The problem is motorcycles are not as readily visible to the AEB radar as is a car. WingAdmin shows how to make a simple radar reflector that greatly enhances the return radar beam the car's AEB utilizes.

https://youtu.be/0rKK5AHs1AQ

I haven't figured out yet how the best way would be to put one on an RT but I'll be working on it. If someone comes up with a solution please post it. We need to help keep each other safe out there!

Here's a link to the Goldwing Docs forum posting. https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewt...p?f=10&t=63779

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That's brilliant - and cheap and easy. :popcorn:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TomG

I like this forum partly because it often gets me thinking about things I had not previously considered. I like the idea of making my spyder more visible to the radar built into many autos today, but not the idea of giving up storage space on my 2016 F3 L.

The following links are to products now available or being developed.

https://www.alliedelec.com/sensor-ac...%20Engineering

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bik...ar-reflectors/

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Excellent resource. BMW is proposing using several small reflectors spread apart on the bike to present a larger apparent target. The Banner engineering products look pretty good for that purpose, e.g......

https://www.alliedelec.com/product/b...x84a/70167676/

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Originally Posted by Frostbyte

I worked radar in the USAF and it's not the strength of a single return that matters, it's the cumulative signal return that triggers the AEB. So, I'm wondering if a fixed array system would also work. Here is my idea...Instead of a single large TriHedral, why not a "Sheet" of small ones? Imagine a surface covered with an array of small ones, like the surface of a rectangular reflector? I could knock one out on my mill using a 45 degree chamfer bit in some 1/4" or thicker Aluminum stock, hit it with some polishing compound, and then mount it below the license plate on my RT. My wife's Mitsubishi has the emergency braking system, so I could test it out using her car.

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How about this stuff? https://www.alliedelec.com/product/b...-100/70167267/

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Originally Posted by UtahPete

How about this stuff? https://www.alliedelec.com/product/b...-100/70167267/

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Don't most targets like this rely on a solid backing sheet and the angles are all clear?

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Originally Posted by UtahPete

How about this stuff? https://www.alliedelec.com/product/b...-100/70167267/

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I looked at that last night. What isn't clear right off the bat is whether the reflector is aluminum thick enough to reflect radar. I'll do some more looking later today. If those do reflect radar they just might be the ticket!

The thickness doesn't matter as it is a "First Surface" device. I'm looking at doing one wide and tall enough to cover the surface between the rear tire and "Mud Flap" on my 19 RT. My plan is to mill a fixed array master, pull a silicone mold and then cast one using 5/0 aluminum powder in water thin epoxy. That way the reflective angles will be facing the correct way. (The milled master comes out as a negative of what is needed)...Yes, I do prototyping on the side, and I see this as a fun adventure for an old inventor like me. :trike:

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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder

I looked at that last night. What isn't clear right off the bat is whether the reflector is aluminum thick enough to reflect radar. I'll do some more looking later today. If those do reflect radar they just might be the ticket!

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Maybe use the tape version mounted to a sheet of aluminum?

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Originally Posted by UtahPete

Maybe use the tape version mounted to a sheet of aluminum?

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That wouldn't work. The aluminum has to be the corner reflector so the beam will bounce off one, two, or all three, surfaces to be directed straight back to the sender. The principle of the reflector is as long all three surfaces can be hit by the incoming beam, regardless of the reflector's three dimension orientation, the beam will reflect from one surface to the next, and probably to the third surface. The sum of the angles of the reflection on all three surfaces is 180°, i.e., the beam folds back on itself and returns along the same line as the sent beam.

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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder

That wouldn't work. The aluminum has to be the corner reflector so the beam will bounce off one, two, or all three, surfaces to be directed straight back to the sender. The principle of the reflector is as long all three surfaces can be hit by the incoming beam, regardless of the reflector's three dimension orientation, the beam will reflect from one surface to the next, and probably to the third surface. The sum of the angles of the reflection on all three surfaces is 180°, i.e., the beam folds back on itself and returns along the same line as the sent beam.

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Okay, that's what I thought. I'm not actually sure how the tape works anyway given the lack of depth to form a prism.

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Originally Posted by Frostbyte

The thickness doesn't matter as it is a "First Surface" device. I'm looking at doing one wide and tall enough to cover the surface between the rear tire and "Mud Flap" on my 19 RT. My plan is to mill a fixed array master, pull a silicone mold and then cast one using 5/0 aluminum powder in water thin epoxy. That way the reflective angles will be facing the correct way. (The milled master comes out as a negative of what is needed)...Yes, I do prototyping on the side, and I see this as a fun adventure for an old inventor like me. :trike:

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I wonder if one could be created using a 3-D printer using some kind of metallic material? I have no experience with these things; just brainstorming.

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Originally Posted by UtahPete

I wonder if one could be created using a 3-D printer using some kind of metallic material? I have no experience with these things; just brainstorming.

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The only issue would be if the surfaces would have a smooth mirror finish. It could be printed with the usual material and then aluminum spray painted, if aluminum spray paint is good enough to reflect the radar beam.