7K M1 oil sent off

[Roadster Renovations]

Last week I changed the oil on the RT and sent it off. Highest mileage since I have been running Mobile 1. I'll post results when I get them back.

[Chupaca]

We will be waiting for the results...:popcorn::popcorn:

[Roadster Renovations]

140314

Showing a higher level of iron and the viscosity of 11.3

Thoughts?

[jcthorne]

The iron is troublesome. The viscosity breakdown is still there. You either need a better oil or shorter change intervals. Have you thought about giving Rotella T6 a try? My viscosity stays much better but I change at 5k intervals so not as long as you.

[DrewNJ]

Switch to a different oil and cut your mileage down to closer to 5k and check it again. If your iron levels are still high then you've got something going bad inside the motor/trans.
High iron can be crank, cams, rods, rings, and even gears from the trans.
Something is not wearing happy in there...

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[Roadster Renovations]

Appreciate the info. I have an inquiry into BRP as to what PPM of iron is acceptable.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Does anyone still have their slips from their LAB TESTS & identify the Oil they used so we can do a quick comparison....... I think this would be very helpful .......... Mike :thumbup:

[DrewNJ]

Under 100 is normal for Fe. Bikes with shared oil for the trans can run a bit higher than those that have a separate gearbox.

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[Roadster Renovations]

Under 100 is normal for Fe. Bikes with shared oil for the trans can run a bit higher than those that have a separate gearbox.

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That is some relief. I was wondering if it might be clutch material. We now have 35k on the bike and you know that clutch has worn some.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.....I just noticed the variance in these numbers also ( this additive causes clutch slippage from what I've read )...( Amsoil has the lowest ) ..... does anyone remember theirs ???? ......M :thumbup:

[IGETAROUND]

140314

Showing a higher level of iron and the viscosity of 11.3

Thoughts?

Proportionally the iron is pretty close to the 5000 mi mark.

[KX5062]

I've done 2 Blackstone lab tests so far. I'll try to dig out my Blackstone slips.

I remember that my iron levels were high too. On the first test, the lab comment was they found the iron levels troubling. On the follow-on test they said it was still high, but felt it was acceptable. Most likely related to the design of the Spyder semi-automatic transmission clutch system. They also recommended that oil change stay in the 4500 mile range, which is my practice on this bike anyway.

[KX5062]

This is the promised Blackstone summary. I can't find my second sample summary. I'll keep looking around for it.

The oil I used was Red Line 4T 10-40W.

Quote:

Iron was a little high in this first sample from your Can-Am's engine and that points to a little extra wear at steel parts. Maybe your engine sees hard use and that accounts for the extra metal, or maybe there's another non-problem cause that might explain the iron. All other metals look great, so we're not calling this an issue for now, but we'll know more as trends build. Averages are based on 3,000 miles oil use. Fuel dilution at 0.8% of the sample isn't a big deal and wouldn’t have caused the higher iron. Check back in another 4,000 miles to see how trends look.


MI/HR on Oil 4100
MI/HR on Unit 23886
ALUMINUM 5
CHROMIUM 0
IRON 57
COPPER 4
LEAD 0
TIN 0
MOLYBDENUM 386
NICKEL 1
MANGANESE 1
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 1
BORON 6
SILICON 6
SODIUM 8
CALCIUM 3007
MAGNESIUM 14
PHOSPHORUS 1589
ZINC 1796
BARIUM 0




cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 11.93
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 66.2
Flashpoint in °F 360
Fuel % 0.8
Antifreeze % 0
Water % 0
Insolubles % 0.3

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks - but look at the difference in the " Moly " numbers - wow ..... Moly is BAD for wet clutches ..... Mike :thumbup:

[DrewNJ]

It will take some time, but this is a fantastic read. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwiC_ICAhtnQAhWE4iYKHSVEBpAQFghAMAs&usg=AFQjCNH0OSGgVU5h_0vB-gq_wX1E5rksSQ&sig2=N0hqNCyjRiPF0bsOjzhEnw

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[PMK]

It will take some time, but this is a fantastic read. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwiC_ICAhtnQAhWE4iYKHSVEBpAQFghAMAs&usg=AFQjCNH0OSGgVU5h_0vB-gq_wX1E5rksSQ&sig2=N0hqNCyjRiPF0bsOjzhEnw

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Very good info. Always learning. I was taught the zinc level was important when the film strength fails, but if moly can be used that is better. His test shows good results. He does not support Zinc as a good additive. I admit reading most but not all of the article. Does he compare basic zinc vs basic moly?

Those test ratings will make some folks not very happy.

Overall, I am content with what we run in the Spyder, but more impressed with what goes in the Tacoma.

Thanks for that info, possibly one of the most informative links ever on SL.

[BajaRon]

Does anyone still have their slips from their LAB TESTS & identify the Oil they used so we can do a quick comparison....... I think this would be very helpful .......... Mike :thumbup:

Not quite apples to apples here. But this is my lab test for the longest oil change run I've had. 6,400 miles. This was a single trip from east Tennessee to California and back over about a 2 week period. Average daytime temperatures were high 90's and we had some days that were close to 110 degrees. Much of this mileage was on I-40 at 75~85 mph. With a fair amount of mountain twisties and stop & go city traffic thrown in as well.

This is for my 2008 RS 998 motor. I had my Juice Box set a bit rich (as you can see). I think the high temps for long hours may have had something to do with the slightly elevated oxidation. But all were well within parameters. This is the worst lab test I've received on my Spyder so far.

140930

The chart below converts cST viscosity (more accurate and the number you will get in your lab test repot) to the less accurate SAE measurement. For example. An SAE 40 WT rated oil can fall between the mid to upper 30's and the low to mid 40's. As long as it falls between that range it will get an SAE 40 WT rating. As you can see, the cST is a much more accurate way to rate an oil viscosity.

If you would like even more accuracy, go here.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=634236

To make it simple
10.9 cST = 30 WT Viscosity
14.4 cST = 40 WT Viscosity
140929

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

It will take some time, but this is a fantastic read. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwiC_ICAhtnQAhWE4iYKHSVEBpAQFghAMAs&usg=AFQjCNH0OSGgVU5h_0vB-gq_wX1E5rksSQ&sig2=N0hqNCyjRiPF0bsOjzhEnw

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk......................I also got the feeling that He has something to do with SELLING - " EXTREME OIL CONCENTRATE " , since He adds it to almost every oil He tests !!!!!!! and it IMPROVES all the oils !!!! Interesting ....... Mike :thumbup:

[WackyDan]

High iron isn't always bad...

Blackstone analyzed the oil from my F-150 and found higher than usual oil.. Given their sampling data they simply said that for the Coyote 5.0 V8 that is fairly typical even if mine was high.

The more of us that use the same testing lab, the more normalized data they will have.

[PMK]

The article is a good read in its entirety, but as mentioned, lengthy.

I copied portions as they were written by the author and fully recognize those as his. What I was able to do was grab the key paragraphs to consolidate the read and find the points to allow people to better understand the oils and how they were ranked.

I also, used his ranking chart, and copied the data of oils we commonly see discussed here on SL. Not every oil discussed here has been listed in his chart. No doubt it would nice if he could test the BRP oils and rank those, plus the few others often recommended by Amsoil and other brands. I only copied specific oil products, I did not assume any one brands product compared to a similar product from the same brand.

Hope this helps for some of us. At the moment, based on these tests, oil often discussed here, and being known as motorcycle safe oils those were the ones I copied.

FWIW, I enjoyed this and really appreciate DREWNJ sharing it. The author made comments in his blog where he is not affiliated with any products and reports whether good or bad. It is cool he does not recommend using additives, but has tested some with results sometimes making the oil better, and other times the oils performance decreased.

At the moment, and this chart appears to be kept as current as possible with the most recent tests from 2016, it appears it you want to see validated data on what oil to run, the Mobil 1 10-40 Sportbike Oil tends to rate the best at #67 with an outstanding rating. The other oils we often discuss failed to meet the outstanding or good rating and were classified two categories lower in the Modest wear category. These were the Mobil 1 Diesel oil, and Shell Rottella T-6.

I did see a Spectro oil listed for motorcycles, I added this to the list though have never seen it discussed here. It performed poorly, falling into the undesirable category.

The following is copied and pasted, and I recognize the author of the article for the information.


Lower ranked oils are not necessarily “bad”, they simply don’t provide as much wear protection capability as higher ranked oils. If you have been running a low ranked oil in your engine without issue, that does not mean you have switch to a different oil, and it also does not mean you were using a great oil. It only means that your engine’s wear protection needs have not exceeded that oil’s capability. And as long as your engine’s needs don’t exceed that oil’s capability, you will never have a problem. But, if unexpected circumstances come up that make your engine’s needs exceed that oil’s capability, such as an overheating condition, an oiling condition, a loading condition, some parts heading south, or whatever, your engine can end up junk. But, if you’d been using an oil with a much higher capability, it could still provide enough extra protection to save your engine. So, each person has to decide for themselves, which motor oil provides the wear protection capability they are comfortable with, for any given engine build.


For the test results in the Wear Protection Ranking List, the HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the wear protection. And this applies to ALL engines, including ANY High Performance flat tappet engine. An easy way to use this ranking list, is to find an oil you are familiar with, then look at the oils ranked higher, which provide better wear protection, and look at oils ranked lower, which provide less wear protection.

You cannot advance your knowledge into the future by clinging to the incorrect thinking of the past. This is the 21st Century, and we no longer have to guess or use trial and error to decide on which oil to use. Now, we have documented wear test data available. So the future is here, and all we have to do is look at the Ranking List, to choose an oil that provides a wear protection capability level we are comfortable with for any given build.

The “Wear Protection” test data here DIRECTLY APPLIES to flat tappet lobe/lifter interfaces (no matter how wicked the engine), pushrod tip/rocker arm interfaces, non-roller tip rocker arm/valve stem tip interfaces, distributor gear/cam gear interfaces, mechanical fuel pump pushrod tip/cam eccentric interfaces, and all highly loaded engine interfaces.

Traditional 15W40 and 5W40 Diesel oils formulated for big trucks and heavy equipment, rank overall between number 33 and 165. But, if you omit the highest ranked traditional Diesel oil which is FAR, FAR MORE CAPABLE than all the other traditional Diesel oils, the rest only rank between 96 and 165. The poor wear protection performance of all but the one particular top ranked Diesel oil, makes it very clear that in general, Diesel oils are a poor choice for High Performance gas engines.

So, as you can see, oil viscosity plays no particular role in an oil’s wear protection capability. As mentioned above, an oil’s wear protection capability is determined by its base oil and its additive package “as a whole”, with the primary emphasis on the additive package, which contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components, which has nothing to do with viscosity.

I generally recommend that people choose a highly ranked motor oil to begin with, since highly ranked oils don’t need any additional help. And to use that oil just as it comes, right out of the bottle, with NO aftermarket additives at all. However, there is also data included below from testing a several different aftermarket motor oil additives, for informational purposes only, just to show how these additives actually work compared to their claims. But, I do NOT endorse them nor recommend their use.

FOR THE RECORD, I am NOT connected in any way to the Motor Oil or Aftermarket Additive Industry. I have absolutely no interest in what products people choose to use. So, I DO NOT promote any particular brand. I only share the results that come out of my Engineering tests, good or bad. The Wear Protection reference categories are:
.
• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection
.
• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection
.
• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection
.
• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection
.
• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection
.
The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.
#67. 10W40 Mobil 1 Racing 4T, four stroke Motorcycle oil, synthetic = 93,661 psi
This oil claims to meet or exceed API SN. zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


#130. 5W40 MOBIL 1 TURBO DIESEL TRUCK synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4 and ACEA E7 = 74,312 psi
zinc = 1211 ppm
phos = 1168 ppm
moly = 2 ppm


#161. 5W40 SHELL ROTELLA T6 Diesel Oil, synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, SM, SL = 67,804 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


#182. 10W40 Spectro Motor-Guard High Performance Motorcycle Oil, API SL, conventional = 57,977 psi
zinc = 1800 ppm (claimed on bottle)
phos = 1800 ppm (claimed on bottle)
moly = TBD

[Roadster Renovations]

Awesome, PMK!

I will be staying with the M1. Almost 100K psi!

At 6700 miles when I tested the oil and it still had a 11.3 rating (30+ wt.) Not much shearing down from the 40wt.

[Trbayth]

Interesting site that bobistheoilguy.com

As I'm currently running the Castrol 4T I read with interest a thread discussing Castrol's motorcycle oils (https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4231575/Castrol_Motorcycle_Oils#Post4231575). In that thread, someone claims that many motorcycle oils that claim JASO ratings aren't actually certified, they simple claim they meet or exceed JASO requirements. Here's a link to a list of oils that actually are certified:

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

Always good to expand my knowledge.

[PMK]

Interesting site that bobistheoilguy.com

As I'm currently running the Castrol 4T I read with interest a thread discussing Castrol's motorcycle oils (https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4231575/Castrol_Motorcycle_Oils#Post4231575). In that thread, someone claims that many motorcycle oils that claim JASO ratings aren't actually certified, they simple claim they meet or exceed JASO requirements. Here's a link to a list of oils that actually are certified:

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

Always good to expand my knowledge.

The certification requirements should be available. Whether the oil manufacturer pays to have the oil certified or accomplishes the test in house to meet the requirement is up to the oil manufacturer.

Not sure what this guy gets to test oil, but it would be nice to see where BRP oils rank and others like the one you are using.

After reading this and seeing the results, the Mobil 1 10/40 sportbike oil appears to be the best until others are tested.

[KX5062]

Interesting. Motul 300V was the highest rated 4 stroke motorcycle oil in the test at number 15.

(Motul is well known in the motorcycle world, especially the Euro riding crowd.)

[PMK]

Interesting. Motul 300V was the highest rated 4 stroke motorcycle oil in the test at number 15.

(Motul is well known in the motorcycle world, especially the Euro riding crowd.)

Saw that. $33 per litre. Did not lokk to see, is it possible that is oil used for dry clutch style engines.

[Trbayth]

Saw that. $33 per litre. Did not lokk to see, is it possible that is oil used for dry clutch style engines.

Amazon has it for $66 for 4 liters. https://www.amazon.com/Motul-300V-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B000GU5QDA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1480940920&sr=8-2&keywords=motul+motorcycle+oil

[DSSpyder]

Great discussion on oils! Thank you all. Discussions backed up by technical data are much better that "it's what my dad used!"
I got introduced to Mobil 1 industrial oils working in the electric production industry where everything was backed up by analysis. We used it as predictive maintenance for repairs and oil changes. That Mobil support was so impressive I use Mobil 1 in everything I drive. RAM diesel, Goldwing, Spyder, 30 years +
Question; has anyone contacted Rotax for their 2 cents? They design and build the engines.
Hope to see you all at Homecoming this year!
Ride Safe!


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[Highwayman2013]

It will take some time, but this is a fantastic read. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwiC_ICAhtnQAhWE4iYKHSVEBpAQFghAMAs&usg=AFQjCNH0OSGgVU5h_0vB-gq_wX1E5rksSQ&sig2=N0hqNCyjRiPF0bsOjzhEnw

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He rates the oil Doc is running as a good one.

[Highwayman2013]

......................I also got the feeling that He has something to do with SELLING - " EXTREME OIL CONCENTRATE " , since He adds it to almost every oil He tests !!!!!!! and it IMPROVES all the oils !!!! Interesting ....... Mike :thumbup:

Actually it doesn't improve all the oils, some of them get worse.

[KX5062]

Saw that. $33 per litre. Did not lokk to see, is it possible that is oil used for dry clutch style engines.




Nope. It's wet clutch rated.

Amazon has it for $16.50 per liter, free shipping.

https://www.amazon.com/Motul-300V-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B000GU5QDA

[PMK]

Nope. It's wet clutch rated.

Amazon has it for $16.50 per liter, free shipping.

https://www.amazon.com/Motul-300V-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B000GU5QDA

Let me know how well it works. No plans to go away from Mobil 1 Sportbike oil. Easy to get on the day I need it, costs less and is well rated.

If a 1330 made respectable HP or I was spraying it, then maybe. As is, the RTS is heavy, is not a high rpm, high output engine, so stresses should be low.

Two up with full fuel and no baggage, 13.356 lbs/hp. With riders, no fuel or fluids, no baggage, basically empty wt, still comes in at 9.56 lb/hp.

Pretty low too in the hp/ci numbers too @ around 1.4

Fun machine, does well as designed and intended.