GIVI Bags Mounting

[Questions]

I'm in the process of installing GIVI Bags on my new:spyder2:. They furnish brackets to relocate turn-signals to the rear fender. I really don't like the set-up. Has anyone mounted these bags and come up with a better idea? Looking forward to your feedback!!

Thanks,Slim

So far: NMN 4" Risers,CHAD Windsheild,BRP Sport Rack/BackRest,Trunk Liner,Highway Pegs,Hindle Pipe,Hi-Flo Air Filter. Should have my seat back this Wk. W/Utopia Driver Backrest installed.:clap:

[bjt]

I suppose thats one nice thing about the Thibault Engineering / Industries 7 GIVI rack design over the GIVI design. They relocate the turn signals to a small tab on the rack that has the same cutout as the BRP plastic that the turn signals came from. It keeps them up in the same area instead of relocating them to the fender like you are saying the GIVI rack does.

[Bersquack]

I suppose thats one nice thing about the Thibault Engineering / Industries 7 GIVI rack design over the GIVI design. They relocate the turn signals to a small tab on the rack that has the same cutout as the BRP plastic that the turn signals came from. It keeps them up in the same area instead of relocating them to the fender like you are saying the GIVI rack does.
:agree:

And it looks like to BRP mounting bracket for the BRP branded Givi bags will do similar to the Industries 7 rack.

[Dudley]

We almost ordered the GIVI bags from GIVI through the dealer because of the price difference. The GIVI racks were not available (so we ordered from Industries 7) and I am glad they weren't available after I saw a pic someone had put on this forum. At present there may not be any alternative, but someone will come up with an idea for the turn signals and the GIVI racks. You may be that one!

[jnt]

We also did the Industries7 rack for the side bags (and mated it to Kewl's tail rack). VERY pleased with the result! :2thumbs: I would think having the signals on the fender would subject them to much vibes and would require bulb replacements (JMNSHO).

[Dudley]

I have an idea for someone with the tools to do it. Make an extension coming out of the same holes the lights are connected to. Move the lights farther back using this extension and remount them on the end of the extension. Shouldn't have any weight stress problems. The lights are pretty lite in weight.

[johnboyjohn.pretious]

Mounted the rack but the blinker position looked plain ugly.
My solution, obtained short stem units from mail order and mounted them in the original holes. wiring was fairly straightforward, just nip off the originals and crimp on spade fittings which hide up in the original positions. The bulbs in the units are 12v 23w so plenty bright enough.
cant post a picture as my camera and computer are not talking to each other !!!

:cheers:

[BRPjunkie]

My initial reaction to the fender mounted turn signals was the same, what were they thinking? They now have a wire loom that assists with the installation of the turn signals so you don't have to be McGiver, but it doesn't solve the rear fender location. I have been trying to design some decent looking brackets to relocate them back up where they were while also asking Givi if the BRP rack turn signal bracket will work. No answer yet. In the meantime, I have started to get used to them on the fender. Like windshields, risers, mirror extensions, and other mods, what looks bad to some doesn't look as bad to others. All I know is that for the $170 difference in price between the Givi and I7, I will leave them on the fender until I or someone figures something out.

[Questions]

Thanks JohnBoyJohn,great idea,just ordered a pr. of short-stemed turnsignals from Dennis Kirk. They are almost identical to the stock units.:clap:So much for that problem,LOVE this web sight:yes:Duane

[johnboyjohn.pretious]

Thanks JohnBoyJohn,great idea,just ordered a pr. of short-stemed turnsignals from Dennis Kirk. They are almost identical to the stock units.:clap:So much for that problem,LOVE this web sight:yes:Duane


Sorry Sorry Sorry, forgot to mention the overall length of the blinker must be no more than 3 1/2 inches with the Givi rack as clos fitting as it is. Any longer and it will foul the rear of the case.

Getting old and forgetful
Best of luck

johnboy

[BRPjunkie]

Thanks JohnBoyJohn,great idea,just ordered a pr. of short-stemed turnsignals from Dennis Kirk. They are almost identical to the stock units.:clap:So much for that problem,LOVE this web sight:yes:Duane

Part Number??? :dontknow:

[Questions]

Sorry about the delay. Received turn-signals today. With the addition of a couple of washers and some wire splicing,they fit perfect. These are Dennis Kirk #211382,they are alittle pricey,but very,very bright:yikes:!!(LEDS)

Hope this helps,Slim

[Dudley]

Sorry about the delay. Received turn-signals today. With the addition of a couple of washers and some wire splicing,they fit perfect. These are Dennis Kirk #211382,they are alittle pricey,but very,very bright:yikes:!!(LEDS)

Hope this helps,Slim

Glad you got it working for you! When you get a chance could you share the completion with pics?

[BRPjunkie]

Sorry about the delay. Received turn-signals today. With the addition of a couple of washers and some wire splicing,they fit perfect. These are Dennis Kirk #211382,they are alittle pricey,but very,very bright:yikes:!!(LEDS)

Hope this helps,Slim

They may be very, very bright, but they are not DOT approved. Not sure that anyone would ever know that.

[YSWMN]

I'm wanting to put Givi hardcases on my Spyder, so all of the comments are very helpful. Where would I find the Industries 7 Givi rack? I'm not finding it on line. :dontknow:

Thanks!
YZWMN

[Dudley]

I'm wanting to put Givi hardcases on my Spyder, so all of the comments are very helpful. Where would I find the Industries 7 Givi rack? I'm not finding it on line. :dontknow:

Thanks!
YZWMN

We ordered ours through the dealer. If you go to Industries 7 site, you can find a contact email and I believe phone number. Maybe they can direct you if your dealer can't order for you.

[Magic Man]

I'm wanting to put Givi hardcases on my Spyder, so all of the comments are very helpful. Where would I find the Industries 7 Givi rack? I'm not finding it on line. :dontknow:

Thanks!
YZWMN

Here it is for you! :thumbup:

http://www.nomagicneon.com/industries7.pdf

MM

[Dudley]

Here it is for you! :thumbup:

http://www.nomagicneon.com/industries7.pdf

MM

Didn't know you sold them. Will refer others to you in the future.

[YSWMN]

Wow! Thanks for the speedy information! I'll check the website and call the dealer in Portland where I bought my bike.

[Firefly]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, there are 3 options for mounting Givi bags:

1. InD 7 rack system.
2. Givi Rack system.
3. Soon to be release BRP rack system.

Is this correct?

Anyone actually seen the BRP rack? I read the BRP rack can be detached in a matter of minutes - which would be nice.

[bjt]

Not sure about the BRP rack but my I7 rack can be detached in minutes also. Two bolts under the seat, muffler hanger bolt and a corresponding one on the other side, and one screw at the tip of the underseat pan. Add another 5 - 10 minutes for popping the turn signals off the rack and putting them back on the Spyder's side panel and I figure 15 - 20 minutes tops to go from I7 rack to stock. You could probably cut that time in half if you did if fairly often.

[Dudley]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, there are 3 options for mounting Givi bags:

1. InD 7 rack system.
2. Givi Rack system.
3. Soon to be release BRP rack system.

Is this correct?

Anyone actually seen the BRP rack? I read the BRP rack can be detached in a matter of minutes - which would be nice.

I have not seen the BRP/GIVI mount, but if it's the GIVI mount, then it's probably going to be turn signals on the fender. I have the Industries 7 setup and it's VERY well put together! We are very satisfied with it. If you have any questions, call Magic, he sells them.

[Firefly]

I have not seen the BRP/GIVI mount, but if it's the GIVI mount, then it's probably going to be turn signals on the finder. I have the Industries 7 setup and it's VERY well put together! We are very satisfied with it. If you have any questions, call Magic, he sells them.

I was thinking about this and it would make sense that the BRP rack would actually be the same as the Givi rack. I've seen the IND7 and was impressed.

[Firefly]

Does this look like they moved the turn signals?

http://spyder.brp.com/en-US/Share/Community/Team-Blog/Blog-Entry.html?EntryID=a6eb9c53-a349-44a4-9896-d715e67b05b5

I can't tell from the angle. They also mention a quick-release for the brackets themselves.

[Firefly]

Okay, it seems the Givi mount that someone posted about actually mounts the turn signals onto the back fender. Found a photo of it at premiercycleaccessories.com.

Looks terrible.

It now appears the BRP rack setup is different than the Givi because the turn signals don't get relocated.

[igor]

Okay, it seems the Givi mount that someone posted about actually mounts the turn signals onto the back fender. Found a photo of it at premiercycleaccessories.com.

Looks terrible.

It now appears the BRP rack setup is different than the Givi because the turn signals don't get relocated.

i did it and it is OK for me :dontknow:

[Dudley]

Does this look like they moved the turn signals?

http://spyder.brp.com/en-US/Share/Community/Team-Blog/Blog-Entry.html?EntryID=a6eb9c53-a349-44a4-9896-d715e67b05b5

I can't tell from the angle. They also mention a quick-release for the brackets themselves.

Set up looks like mine. Can't understand how they can have a "quick detachment" for the rack itself. A rack should be tightly bolted for stability. Seems like anything that could detach easily would not hold up. The bags are very easy to remove "quick detachment". The latches that hold them firm seem bullet-proof. Probably the best package for the bucks.

[Firefly]

Set up looks like mine. Can't understand how they can have a "quick detachment" for the rack itself. A rack should be tightly bolted for stability. Seems like anything that could detach easily would not hold up. The bags are very easy to remove "quick detachment". The latches that hold them firm seem bullet-proof. Probably the best package for the bucks.

Looks sharp!

[The Breeze]

Looks like you have the V35 Givi's.
Do they, as advertised, hold a full face helmet?

[BRPjunkie]

Looks like you have the V35 Givi's.
Do they, as advertised, hold a full face helmet?

Givi V35 will hold a size M HJC helmet with ease. A L HJC requires a precise alignmemt to fit. An XL will not fit. I can only vouch for HJC helmets as that is all I have and others may or may not fit.

[The Breeze]

Givi V35 will hold a size M HJC helmet with ease. A L HJC requires a precise alignmemt to fit. An XL will not fit. I can only vouch for HJC helmets as that is all I have and others may or may not fit.


Thanks for the response.

As luck would have it, I wear a medium HJC SyMax II.
My concern is - modular helmets tend to be larger than standard full face helmets.

[NancysToy]

Set up looks like mine. Can't understand how they can have a "quick detachment" for the rack itself. A rack should be tightly bolted for stability. Seems like anything that could detach easily would not hold up. The bags are very easy to remove "quick detachment". The latches that hold them firm seem bullet-proof. Probably the best package for the bucks.
I'm wondering if they didn't engineer or license something like the SW-Motech Quick-Lock Contour Carriers. These are available for several bikes. Basically they use a locking fastener (bolt/knob) and all that is left on the bike when the racks aren't mounted is the permanently installed mounting point. Slick system, solid, and very clean. I'm looking forward to learning more about the BRP mounts.
-Scotty

[bjt]

Reading the BRP descripton of their rack, I don't necessarily think that they are saying the rack is quick release. I've read it a couple of times and I don't see where they are clearly saying that the rack itself removes with some type of quarter turn fasteners. The description of the quick release is ambiguous. The bags are quick release, just as the bags quickly release from the Industries 7 rack and the GIVI rack.

The turn signals may stay on the Spyder in the original location with the BRP rack but its really hard telling from their picture. It appears the bags may sit lower on the Spyder than with my I7 rack and, if so, the turn signal might be able to stay in the stock location. Otherwise, they've relocated them just a bit farther back and onto the rack itself, just like the I7 rack.

[Firefly]

Reading the BRP descripton of their rack, I don't necessarily think that they are saying the rack is quick release. I've read it a couple of times and I don't see where they are clearly saying that the rack itself removes with some type of quarter turn fasteners. The description of the quick release is ambiguous. The bags are quick release, just as the bags quickly release from the Industries 7 rack and the GIVI rack.

The turn signals may stay on the Spyder in the original location with the BRP rack but its really hard telling from their picture. It appears the bags may sit lower on the Spyder than with my I7 rack and, if so, the turn signal might be able to stay in the stock location. Otherwise, they've relocated them just a bit farther back and onto the rack itself, just like the I7 rack.

Yeah, I thought that too about whether the racks themselves are 'quick release'. the wording is strange and could mean either or both. Do the Givi bags use a 'quarter-turn' system for removal?

In the first sentence they mention the 'quarter-turn' release, but then later they say the bags open or remove with a key/push button.

So I just don't know what they mean.

The R-35 Rigid Saddlebag Kit was developed in conjunction with Givi. They provide carry-away convenience for additional luggage storage. It has a clean finish courtesy of fully integrated flush mount racking with quick release system. The quick release quarter-turn system provides security and instant removal in minutes when saddlebags are not required. The side case opens/closes and attaches/detaches with one key plus push button for ease of use. Volume capacity is 35 liters (e.g. fits 2 full-face helmets). Weight capacity is 22 lb (10 kg) each side. Dimensions (WxDxH) 21" x 12" x 15 1/2" (53 cm x 30 cm x 39 cm). The kit is sold in pairs.

[BRPjunkie]

I will be very impressed if GIVI/BRP has a quick detach bracket. The Givi brackets currently bolt on in three places, front seat bolt, rear seat bolt and passenger footpeg. Solid as a rock. If all three of these can be converted to a quick release fastener and still be a solid mount, then they have really done their design work. If the BRP design leaves the turn signals where they are by lowering the racks, then the passenger footpegs will be compromised and the muffler will need to be lowered. With each design, there is compromise. I thought that I would not like the racks hanging on there when I didn't need the cases, but I like them so well that they are never off the bike. Like all things Spyder, nice to have choices in design/price (I7, Givi, BRP).

[bjt]

Yeah, I thought that too about whether the racks themselves are 'quick release'. the wording is strange and could mean either or both. Do the Givi bags use a 'quarter-turn' system for removal?

In the first sentence they mention the 'quarter-turn' release, but then later they say the bags open or remove with a key/push button.

So I just don't know what they mean.

The R-35 Rigid Saddlebag Kit was developed in conjunction with Givi. They provide carry-away convenience for additional luggage storage. It has a clean finish courtesy of fully integrated flush mount racking with quick release system. The quick release quarter-turn system provides security and instant removal in minutes when saddlebags are not required. The side case opens/closes and attaches/detaches with one key plus push button for ease of use. Volume capacity is 35 liters (e.g. fits 2 full-face helmets). Weight capacity is 22 lb (10 kg) each side. Dimensions (WxDxH) 21" x 12" x 15 1/2" (53 cm x 30 cm x 39 cm). The kit is sold in pairs.


Yep, slightly confusing. After struggling with BRP's website layout over the past year, I'm not surprised that there is confusion on it still. :D The GIVI bags remove from the rack with a 1/4 turn of the key and a push of the bag release button. The bags open with a 1/4 turn of the key and a push of the bag open button. :sour:

One thing that I think I've gotten straight is that the turn signals with the BRP GIVI rack do relocate the turn signal from the stock position to a more rearward position on the rack itself. Looking at a picture that someone posted of a closeup of the passenger grab bars / turn signal area, the BRP GIVI rack will definitely move the signals back.

[Firefly]

Yep, slightly confusing. After struggling with BRP's website layout over the past year, I'm not surprised that there is confusion on it still. :D The GIVI bags remove from the rack with a 1/4 turn of the key and a push of the bag release button. The bags open with a 1/4 turn of the key and a push of the bag open button. :sour:

One thing that I think I've gotten straight is that the turn signals with the BRP GIVI rack do relocate the turn signal from the stock position to a more rearward position on the rack itself. Looking at a picture that someone posted of a closeup of the passenger grab bars / turn signal area, the BRP GIVI rack will definitely move the signals back.


Yeah - the BRP websites really bite. Let's just hope they use a different set of geeks to program the computers inside the Spyder:yikes:

[Dudley]

Looks like you have the V35 Givi's.
Do they, as advertised, hold a full face helmet?

We tried to fit either of our helmets full face M and full regular L, but couldn't fit them at the time, but was trying to do it in a rush. I will try tomorrow taking my time and see. If someone else can do it, I should be able to.

[Dudley]

Thanks for the response.

As luck would have it, I wear a medium HJC SyMax II.
My concern is - modular helmets tend to be larger than standard full face helmets.

Your best bet is the trunk. Use the bags for more flexible items...jackets, etc.

[Dudley]

The R-35 Rigid Saddlebag Kit was developed in conjunction with Givi. They provide carry-away convenience for additional luggage storage. It has a clean finish courtesy of fully integrated flush mount racking with quick release system. The quick release quarter-turn system provides security and instant removal in minutes when saddlebags are not required. The side case opens/closes and attaches/detaches with one key plus push button for ease of use. Volume capacity is 35 liters (e.g. fits 2 full-face helmets). Weight capacity is 22 lb (10 kg) each side. Dimensions (WxDxH) 21" x 12" x 15 1/2" (53 cm x 30 cm x 39 cm). The kit is sold in pairs.


My understanding reads that it's a quick release flush mount racking. I have never taken the bags off except to apply lock tite on new bolts I had to buy for the bushings that the bags rest on. The ones they sent were about 1/4 inch too short for the lock nut to completely go on the threads and one nut fell off. Thankfully only one, had both fallen off the same bag, that bag would have been history down the freeway. But when the bags are off, the rack is very well balanced with the bike's appearance. For sure, the bags mount very solid and do not rattle. I don't understand how carry-away convenience can give you additional luggage storage. The bag doesn't get any larger when you carry it away. Advertising goobly gook. I figure they mean that the bag is a means of having more luggage storage and it's not part of the Spyder, but that's not what it appears to be as written.

[Firefly]

The R-35 Rigid Saddlebag Kit was developed in conjunction with Givi. They provide carry-away convenience for additional luggage storage. It has a clean finish courtesy of fully integrated flush mount racking with quick release system. The quick release quarter-turn system provides security and instant removal in minutes when saddlebags are not required. The side case opens/closes and attaches/detaches with one key plus push button for ease of use. Volume capacity is 35 liters (e.g. fits 2 full-face helmets). Weight capacity is 22 lb (10 kg) each side. Dimensions (WxDxH) 21" x 12" x 15 1/2" (53 cm x 30 cm x 39 cm). The kit is sold in pairs.


My understanding reads that it's a quick release flush mount racking. I have never taken the bags off except to apply lock tite on new bolts I had to buy for the bushings that the bags rest on. The ones they sent were about 1/4 inch too short for the lock nut to completely go on the threads and one nut fell off. Thankfully only one, had both fallen off the same bag, that bag would have been history down the freeway. But when the bags are off, the rack is very well balanced with the bike's appearance. For sure, the bags mount very solid and do not rattle. I don't understand how carry-away convenience can give you additional luggage storage. The bag doesn't get any larger when you carry it away. Advertising goobly gook. I figure they mean that the bag is a means of having more luggage storage and it's not part of the Spyder, but that's not what it appears to be as written.

I think the meaning of 'additional' storage due to the quick release carry-away is because they are comparing it to having luggage inside of the cases that you would carry away if your cases couldn't be removed.

I'm going to wait and see how they look when they actually come out.

[Dudley]

I think the meaning of 'additional' storage due to the quick release carry-away is because they are comparing it to having luggage inside of the cases that you would carry away if your cases couldn't be removed.

I'm going to wait and see how they look when they actually come out.


I hadn't thought about it that way. Good point! They could use someone with better English composition for us simple minded and more straight-forward people.

[bjt]

I hadn't thought about it that way. Good point! They could use someone with better English composition for us simple minded and more straight-forward people.

It does almost read like they originally wrote this in French and then did a direct translation to English using a computer program. The meaning of what they said in the other language doesn't directly translate. I've seen that a lot in the Asian made products. Just because the words are in English doesn't mean the instructions are in English... :gaah:

[Firefly]

It does almost read like they originally wrote this in French and then did a direct translation to English using a computer program. The meaning of what they said in the other language doesn't directly translate. I've seen that a lot in the Asian made products. Just because the words are in English doesn't mean the instructions are in English... :gaah:

You mean like this:

Your original words:

"It does almost read like they originally wrote this in French and then did a direct translation to English using a computer program. The meaning of what they said in the other language doesn't directly translate. I've seen that a lot in the Asian made products. Just because the words are in English doesn't mean the instructions are in English... "

Translated to French:

"Il lit presque comme ils a écrit au début ceci et alors a fait en français une traduction directe à l'anglais utilisant un programme informatique. Le sens de ce qu'ils ont dit dans l'autre langue ne traduit pas directement. J'ai vu que beaucoup dans l'Asiatique a fait des produits. Juste parce que les mots sont dans l'anglais ne signifie pas que les instructions sont dans l'anglais... "

And now back to English:

"It reads almost as they wrote at first this and then did in French a direct translation to the English using a computer program. The direction of what they said in the other language does not translate directly. I saw that a lot in the Asian did the products. Just because the words are in the English does not mean that the instructions are in l'anglais.. "

You can get the basic meaning, but it does become a bit garbled.

[BRPjunkie]

Many people consider detachable cases convenient when they get to where their going since you can carry them inside, unlike permanent mounted bags/cases. Liners and inner bags solve the problem for them. The convenience of detachable cases really begins when you pack them at home. Off the bike and on your bed, you pack them just like a suit case and then take them out to the bike. If you don't think this is a plus, try to pack them while they are still attached to the bike.

[Dudley]

Many people consider detachable cases convenient when they get to where their going since you can carry them inside, unlike permanent mounted bags/cases. Liners and inner bags solve the problem for them. The convenience of detachable cases really begins when you pack them at home. Off the bike and on your bed, you pack them just like a suit case and then take them out to the bike. If you don't think this is a plus, try to pack them while they are still attached to the bike.

I understand the packing convenience, but the way they do the write-up seems to say that having the carry-away convience gives you additional luggage storage. The luggage storage remaines the same, whether you carry-away or not. You can pack more in the same space if you remove the bags from the rack, but the storage capacity does not change. That doesn't change the price of tea in China, just my thoughts on their ad content.

[BRPjunkie]

BRP comments on accessories need help. Fog Lights still say "easy installation". "Console protector" is actually gas tank cover protector. "Muffler Deflector" doesn't deflect anything, except for deflecting attention from the burn spot. "Additional luggage storage" may simply be more of the same lack of good editing by BRP.

[Dudley]

BRP comments on accessories need help. Fog Lights still say "easy installation". "Console protector" is actually gas tank cover protector. "Muffler Deflector" doesn't deflect anything, except for deflecting attention from the burn spot. "Additional luggage storage" may simply be more of the same lack of good editing by BRP.

Roger that on all your findings!

[bjt]

You mean like this:

Your original words:

"It does almost read like they originally wrote this in French and then did a direct translation to English using a computer program. The meaning of what they said in the other language doesn't directly translate. I've seen that a lot in the Asian made products. Just because the words are in English doesn't mean the instructions are in English... "

Translated to French:

"Il lit presque comme ils a écrit au début ceci et alors a fait en français une traduction directe à l'anglais utilisant un programme informatique. Le sens de ce qu'ils ont dit dans l'autre langue ne traduit pas directement. J'ai vu que beaucoup dans l'Asiatique a fait des produits. Juste parce que les mots sont dans l'anglais ne signifie pas que les instructions sont dans l'anglais... "

And now back to English:

"It reads almost as they wrote at first this and then did in French a direct translation to the English using a computer program. The direction of what they said in the other language does not translate directly. I saw that a lot in the Asian did the products. Just because the words are in the English does not mean that the instructions are in l'anglais.. "

You can get the basic meaning, but it does become a bit garbled.


BRP comments on accessories need help. Fog Lights still say "easy installation". "Console protector" is actually gas tank cover protector. "Muffler Deflector" doesn't deflect anything, except for deflecting attention from the burn spot. "Additional luggage storage" may simply be more of the same lack of good editing by BRP.

Yepper. :D

[nudle]

:dontknow: is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?????????

[BRPjunkie]

:dontknow: is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?????????

I have two glasses, one that's half full and one that's half empty. Maybe I'll combine them and have a full one and an empty one. :D

[The Breeze]

I have two glasses, one that's half full and one that's half empty. Maybe I'll combine them and have a full one and an empty one. :D


I try not to worry about such things and drink out the bottle!
:D

[BRPjunkie]

I try not to worry about such things and drink out the bottle!
:D

But is the bottle half full or half empty?:dontknow:

[The Breeze]

But is the bottle half full or half empty?:dontknow:

While it may be in a state of constant change throughout the life of its' contents - when I'm through with it - it WILL be empty!!
;)

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:hFWuCHxpStMd5M:http://whatsthecrack.net/images/articles/366/Blasted%2520Wine%2520Bottle.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://whatsthecrack.net/images/articles/366/Blasted%2520Wine%2520Bottle.jpg&imgrefurl=http://whatsthecrack.net/Amazing-Slow-Motion-x-ray-gun-shots-pictures&usg=__NVaJdOu9ap9eNYQwUtqui_UjZe8=&h=530&w=681&sz=18&hl=en&start=4&sig2=CRlBj9SBBCs5ZK-RB3jzTw&um=1&tbnid=hFWuCHxpStMd5M:&tbnh=108&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbullet%2Bthrough%2Bbottle%2Bpicture%2 6hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=20TnSZ_FK4yu8ATOwr3mDg)

[bjt]

I try not to worry about such things and drink out the bottle!
:D


While it may be in a state of constant change throughout the life of its' contents - when I'm through with it - it WILL be empty!!
;)

:roflblack: :D

[retread]

If the glass is half full, you need a smaller glass.

john