RS VS F3 cornering speed?!

[GDA]

Hi everyone ,

I was a naked bike rider .

I used to ride mt01 and KTM Duke R 690.

I crashed my bike few months ago,

i am going to order a new spyder for more safe.

Many owner of spyder said that the F3 can go faster in the corner than a rs.

Is that ture?

I like the look of F3 , but i hate the seating position .

Anyway, the cornering speed is the most important thing for me.

Can you please give me some suggestion?

Thank you

[Tazzel]

Nothing like an RS in the Canyons. Has more throttle response going in and out of the curves. The F3 does very well also and has a bigger engine that includes a 6th gear. I have owned both and if I had to choose it would be the F3 for more comfort. However, everyone is different and if your more comfortable on the RS go for it!!! I still miss my RS.

[Crisis]

What every model you decide on plan on upgrading the swaybar and shocks for improved handling.

[Myersd802003]

I've got both, I think the F3 is faster around curves, because you feel more secure. The RS, you sit on top of it and the force is trying to knock you off of it. The F3 you sit more in to it in regards to seating positions. Just my .02

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Unfortunately the ultimate cornering forces that the Spyder ( any model ) can achieve is defeated by the COMPUTER CONTROLLED VSS system....... Someone may be able to add or clarify this about the F-3 that the VSS is turned down slightly on this model ???? .....I have a 2014 RT with a very modified front suspension & 185 front tires that are extremely sticky .......But what I really achieved with this was a Spyder that now slows down in curves because the VSS system cuts the power.....and this isn't because I'm sliding off the road or losing control....................So IMHO, once you Master riding a Spyder a YOUR maximum and IT's maximum .... The VSS computer will prevent anything further........................Hope this helps...( at least saving you money & aggravation )................Mike :thumbup:

[GDA]

so f3 and rs will do the same cornering speed?

Is that F3 have lots of issues ?

[GDA]

Unfortunately the ultimate cornering forces that the Spyder ( any model ) can achieve is defeated by the COMPUTER CONTROLLED VSS system....... Someone may be able to add or clarify this about the F-3 that the VSS is turned down slightly on this model ???? .....I have a 2014 RT with a very modified front suspension & 185 front tires that are extremely sticky .......But what I really achieved with this was a Spyder that now slows down in curves because the VSS system cuts the power.....and this isn't because I'm sliding off the road or losing control....................So IMHO, once you Master riding a Spyder a YOUR maximum and IT's maximum .... The VSS computer will prevent anything further........................Hope this helps...( at least saving you money & aggravation )................Mike :thumbup:

Mike,do you have to mod the fender and rim to fit a 185 tire?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike,do you have to mod the fender and rim to fit a 185 tire?
Different Spyders have different fenders......( a 185 is the MAX for the OEM rim ) .....mine was a 2014 Basic RT.....and I bent the fender supports slightly,,, I also trimmed the fender edge on the outside so I could get the tires on and off easier........Remember the Spyder fenders move EXACTLY the same as the TIRE .......so if you 3/16 inch clearance ( with a car tire ) this should work even considering the tire flex.......BUT....here's the main issue and DOWN SIDE to handling improvements......The VSS is going to PREVENT you from benefiting from more than a MODEST handling improvement...............However if you want to spend a bunch of YOUR money to discover what I just told you for FREE .....be my guest.......good luck........Mike :bbq:

[Bob Denman]

so f3 and rs will do the same cornering speed?

Is that F3 have lots of issues ?
Since the center of gravity is lower for the F-3 models: I'd bet that you can get through the "wigglies" faster, on one of them. (IMHO)

[Tazzel]

I've got both, I think the F3 is faster around curves, because you feel more secure. The RS, you sit on top of it and the force is trying to knock you off of it. The F3 you sit more in to it in regards to seating positions. Just my .02

Maybe, but I think the RS throttle response is much better in the curves, you never have to brake the RS, the throttle does the work. F3 takes to long to drop RPMS (speed).

[Koop]

Unfortunately the ultimate cornering forces that the Spyder ( any model ) can achieve is defeated by the COMPUTER CONTROLLED VSS system....... Someone may be able to add or clarify this about the F-3 that the VSS is turned down slightly on this model ???? .....I have a 2014 RT with a very modified front suspension & 185 front tires that are extremely sticky .......But what I really achieved with this was a Spyder that now slows down in curves because the VSS system cuts the power.....and this isn't because I'm sliding off the road or losing control....................So IMHO, once you Master riding a Spyder a YOUR maximum and IT's maximum .... The VSS computer will prevent anything further........................Hope this helps...( at least saving you money & aggravation )................Mike :thumbup:

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.

The VSS doesn't cut power arbitrarily at some designated speed. It monitors signals from various sensors. It takes the steering angle (driver input) and compares it to the yaw sensor signal (vehicle response). It also monitors all three wheel rotational speeds through the ABS wheel speed sensors.

If the steering angle exceeds the resulting yaw signal by a certain amount, it indicates understeer as the front wheels wash out. If the yaw angle exceeds the steering angle signal by a certain amount it indicates oversteer as the rear wheel slides out. This can also be due to the rear wheel breaking traction and spinning up which would result in a mismatch of expected wheel rotational speed as well as increased yaw in a turn.

These factors all point to a loss of traction before the VSS cuts power or applies individual wheel brakes unless a faulty sensor signal is being sent to the VSS module. Maybe you're going faster than you think before the VSS kicks in.

Since I upgraded my suspension I can corner much faster and haven't had any noticeable VSS intervention.

[Sarge707]

I had 35,000 Miles on my 2009 GS (RS) and I have 3,500 on my F3 and the F3 Corners Faster and Does Not feel like its going to toss you over the side!
That being said- The 5 speed Twin transmission is Superior to the 6 Speed in relation to Acceleration and a WIDER Power Band!

[spydaman60]

Unfortunately the ultimate cornering forces that the Spyder ( any model ) can achieve is defeated by the COMPUTER CONTROLLED VSS system....... Someone may be able to add or clarify this about the F-3 that the VSS is turned down slightly on this model ???? .....I have a 2014 RT with a very modified front suspension & 185 front tires that are extremely sticky .......But what I really achieved with this was a Spyder that now slows down in curves because the VSS system cuts the power.....and this isn't because I'm sliding off the road or losing control....................So IMHO, once you Master riding a Spyder a YOUR maximum and IT's maximum .... The VSS computer will prevent anything further........................Hope this helps...( at least saving you money & aggravation )................Mike :thumbup:not after the Daytona model was introduced today mike. we can now release the nanny of her duties!!!:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

[PistonBlown]

Despite the torque, bhp and weight advantages of the F3 over the RS for some reason it's slower than an RS going from 0-60. Quite an achievement by BRP there:-)

Also note that the pre-2013 RS's are actually faster and have more power than the current RS's. So the figures are:


RS Pre-2013 (like mine) 106bhp @ 8,500rpm, 104.3Nm @ 6250rpm. 0-60mph 4.5 seconds
RS/ST 2013... 100bhp @ 7,500rpm, 108Nm @ 5000rpm.
F3 115bhp @ 7,250rpm, 130Mn @ 5000rpm. 0-60mph 4.8 seconds


Don't have an official figure for a post 2013 RS/ST but I think 4.6 seconds was the figure claimed when they were released.

So you can see from this that the pre-2013's really like their rev's which gives you a more sports bike feel.

Completely unscientifically when I took an F3 for a test ride I was a bit underwhelmed by it. Mind you the position of the seat's too low for me as well which didn't help.

I suspect both would have their advantages and disadvantages in the corners and it may be up to the rider as much as the Spyder which is faster.

To improve cornering on mine I've:

Fitted a stiffer sway bar (biggest improvement you can make).
Replaced the rear tire with something sticky (Toyo T1R has been the best one so far)
Replaced the front tires with something stickier as they began to slide when the back was was sorted:-)


I move around quite a bit as well, stock seat on an RS is shaped for that. Suspect that wouldn't be required so much on an F3 because you sit lower. Mind you I enjoy doing that as it makes me feel involved.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.

The VSS doesn't cut power arbitrarily at some designated speed. It monitors signals from various sensors. It takes the steering angle (driver input) and compares it to the yaw sensor signal (vehicle response). It also monitors all three wheel rotational speeds through the ABS wheel speed sensors.

If the steering angle exceeds the resulting yaw signal by a certain amount, it indicates understeer as the front wheels wash out. If the yaw angle exceeds the steering angle signal by a certain amount it indicates oversteer as the rear wheel slides out. This can also be due to the rear wheel breaking traction and spinning up which would result in a mismatch of expected wheel rotational speed as well as increased yaw in a turn.

These factors all point to a loss of traction before the VSS cuts power or applies individual wheel brakes unless a faulty sensor signal is being sent to the VSS module. Maybe you're going faster than you think before the VSS kicks in.

Since I upgraded my suspension I can corner much faster and haven't had any noticeable VSS intervention.
NOTE: I never used the term " arbitrarily ", I was less wordy than you in my explanation..........And if you aren't getting any " VSS " intervention than you aren't cornering as fast as I am. .....I'm not being boastful here, but as an example those yellow speed signs ( that are suggested speeds ) I usually double whatever is posted and sometimes more. I rarely exceed the limit on straights........Mike :thumbup:

[Koop]

NOTE: I never used the term " arbitrarily ", I was less wordy than you in my explanation..........And if you aren't getting any " VSS " intervention than you aren't cornering as fast as I am. .....I'm not being boastful here, but as an example those yellow speed signs ( that are suggested speeds ) I usually double whatever is posted and sometimes more. I rarely exceed the limit on straights........Mike :thumbup:

As I said, I may have misunderstood your post. You've also missed the point of my post. VSS intervention means loss of traction all things considered, unless there's a faulty sensor signal. I also said noticeable intervention - VSS may apply brakes at one or more wheels without me really knowing it - the system is that good in that respect. In my experience - decades of motorcycle road racing - smooth is fast. VSS intervention is not smooth or fast.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

As I said, I may have misunderstood your post. You've also missed the point of my post. VSS intervention means loss of traction all things considered, unless there's a faulty sensor signal. I also said noticeable intervention - VSS may apply brakes at one or more wheels without me really knowing it - the system is that good in that respect. In my experience - decades of motorcycle road racing - smooth is fast. VSS intervention is not smooth or fast.
Kind Sir......in your Decades of motorcycle road racing ..... did any of those bikes have a system similar to the Spyder's VSS ...That answer is NO ......and I absolutely agree 110 % smooth is fast, however it does not apply to the Spyder......The VSS prevents you achieving anything approaching the limits of the Spyders cornering ability..........Shoot a PM to Seth-O and get His opinion on fast driving a Spyder .....Mike :thumbup:

[Koop]

Kind Sir......in your Decades of motorcycle road racing ..... did any of those bikes have a system similar to the Spyder's VSS ...That answer is NO ......and I absolutely agree 110 % smooth is fast, however it does not apply to the Spyder......The VSS prevents you achieving anything approaching the limits of the Spyders cornering ability..........Shoot a PM to Seth-O and get His opinion on fast driving a Spyder .....Mike :thumbup:

I'll admit to be a fairly new Spyder rider. But I failed to mention that I also spent a considerable amount of track time in autos with traction control and stability systems. I spent my entire career with a European auto manufacturer in Technical Service and Quality. I understand Bosch stability systems and stand by my posts.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'll admit to be a fairly new Spyder rider. But I failed to mention that I also spent a considerable amount of track time in autos with traction control and stability systems. I spent my entire career with a European auto manufacturer in Technical Service and Quality. I understand Bosch stability systems and stand by my posts.
Soooooooooooo are you saying as long as you are smooth the VSS will allow you to go as fast as traction will permit in any given curve ???? ...Mike :thumbup:

[Koop]

Soooooooooooo are you saying as long as you are smooth the VSS will allow you to go as fast as traction will permit in any given curve ???? ...Mike :thumbup:

To a degree, yes. If you are pushing the front on entry or getting on the throttle too hard before you exit, VSS will cut your power. It's always a matter of balance. Trail braking on entry is a difficult technique to master. Hitting the apex and opening the throttle - it's all to easy to wind the grip wide open and mess it up. Do that right and you're smooth without noticeable intervention.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

To a degree, yes. If you are pushing the front on entry or getting on the throttle too hard before you exit, VSS will cut your power. It's always a matter of balance. Trail braking on entry is a difficult technique to master. Hitting the apex and opening the throttle - it's all to easy to wind the grip wide open and mess it up. Do that right and you're smooth without noticeable intervention.
IMHO, the Spyder isn't comparable to 99 . ? % of the rest of the vehicles out there. I don't think you have enough time on one YET, to fully realize it's limitations. My 7 + yrs. with 3 different Spyders leads me to believe the VSS is speed sensitive .....SMOOTH isn't something the computer takes into account.............You seem to feel differently and I respect that, perhaps someday we will meet on a road that will challenge our riding abilities...............It will be " EPIC " :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:..................Mike

[Koop]

I give up, I'm sorry this devolved into a forum fight. You can believe whatever you want to believe - I understand the software behind Bosch Vehicle Stability Systems. It's not a matter of belief on my part.

[Chupaca]

Gonna have to go with how they are set up. Box stock or lightly modified. I notice here most are refering to the feeling and not the speed the op asked about. Considering the whole seating position I can see where the feeling is suggesting the speed. I can not compare as I Have not ryden an F3 nor care to but can say that those I ryde with that have changed over have not picked up any speed in the turns. Again we go back to...test ryde them both and see for yourself...:thumbup:

[GDA]

in here there have no test ride .so i just order a sm6 f3s.

thank you everyone.

[Bob Denman]

My 7 + yrs. with 3 different Spyders leads me to believe the VSS is speed sensitive .....SMOOTH isn't something the computer takes into account.............

Sorry Mike...
The VSS simply takes the inputs from the sensors, and figures out if you're doing something that is leading to an uncontrollable situation. If the yaw, steering angle, wheel SPEED, and others; are pointing to an ugly situation: you get an intervention.
She doesn't shut you down, based solely upon how fast you're going. Smoothness does count! :thumbup:

[Ex Winger]

Sorry Mike...
The VSS simply takes the inputs from the sensors, and figures out if you're doing something that is leading to an uncontrollable situation. If the yaw, steering angle, wheel SPEED, and others; are pointing to an ugly situation: you get an intervention.
She doesn't shut you down, based solely upon how fast you're going. Smoothness does count! :thumbup:

I have to agree with you Bob drive a smooth corner fast and you,ll have no problems.Watch any type of racing and you,ll soon see that a good driver that run,s a smooth corner will out perform some one thats trying to be to agressive.The G force set by the computer with the sensors and yaw rate will shut you down.
Bill

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I give up, I'm sorry this devolved into a forum fight. You can believe whatever you want to believe - I understand the software behind Bosch Vehicle Stability Systems. It's not a matter of belief on my part.
Hey NEWBIE !!!!! I'm not fighting with anyone ...... if you think there is a fight going on ....IT's IN YOUR MIND ......NOT MINE ......and if it's your opinion that SMOOTH fools the VSS , well you need to stop smoking whatever it is your smoking......You can be as smooth as Glass, but at a predetermined limit ( set by the BRP / Bosch engineers ) the VSS is going to be activated.........My understanding of the VSS is now verified by the NEW 2017 F-3 S model.........Mike :thumbup:

[spyderCodes]

The Bosch VSS system takes inputs from the wheel speed sensors, the yaw sensor, the steering angle sensor and passenger presence switch.
The inputs from these six sensors are used to construct an internal model of the vehicle that is updated with blinding speed.

The passenger presence switch is used to determine, in a broad way, the CoG (center of gravity)

The steering angle sensor (sas) determines where the driver is intending for the vehicle to go.
Also, the difference in speed between the two front wheels based on the sas can be applied to the internal model.

The yaw sensor sends information from which the practical adhesion limit of the vehicle is calculated.

When this internal model shows that something bad is going to/or has happened it uses the braking system independently to bring the vehicle back into control as well as the ecu to manipulate power.
It knows it is in control when the internal model is deemed stable

Without this system the Spyder would be a very dangerous vehicle to drive.
Test drivers who have driven it without the VSS have said it was like piloting a lawn dart.
The system does not react to absolute speed.

[Bob Denman]

Thank you, for that easily understood explanation.:clap: :firstplace: :2thumbs:

I wish that I could have said it, half as well as you did! :opps:

[Koop]

The Bosch VSS system takes inputs from the wheel speed sensors, the Yaw sensor, and the steering angle sensor and passenger presence switch.

The passenger switch is used to determine in a broad way the CoG (center of gravity)

From the steering angle sensors it knows what the difference in speed between the two front wheels should be and what the drive wheel should be be turning at.

It also uses the steering angle sensor to determine where the driver is intending for the vehicle to go.

The Yaw sensor sends information from which the practical adhesion limit of the vehicle is calculated and if the vehicle is about to go into an unsupportable drift.

The inputs from these 6 sensors are used to construct an internal model of the vehicle that is updated with blinding speed.

When this internal model shows that something bad is going to/or has happened it uses the braking system independently to bring the vehicle back into control.
It knows it is in control when the internal model is deemed stable

Without this system the Spyder would be a very dangerous vehicle to drive.
Test drivers who have driven it without the VSS have said it was like piloting a lawn dart.
The system does not react to absolute speed.

:agree:This is what I attempted to explain and failed to communicate in my posts yesterday.

[No 2817]

I've got both, I think the F3 is faster around curves, because you feel more secure. The RS, you sit on top of it and the force is trying to knock you off of it. The F3 you sit more in to it in regards to seating positions. Just my .02

I test rode both and preferred the F3-t for the ride position. (Came off a 2008 GS so like the forward lean position) You have to ride them and see what you prefer, it's a lot of money to drop with out comparison shopping. Seeing what the OP wrote I will have to agree with that.

Chris

[Bob Denman]

:agree:This is what I attempted to explain and failed to communicate in my posts yesterday.

Roger can make the difficult seem easy...

...And the easy: seem beautiful!