oil to spare!

[max continuous]

I had the tupperware off by the oil tank trying out some cleaning products. (Plexus):2thumbs:
I thought I would check the oil. When I took the dipstick out the oil was right to the top of the tank!!
It's a 2008 Red SM5 with about .5 hrs. on the engine.
I've started it a few times since bringing it home and the other day I let it come to temp for about 15 mins. I reved it a few times and rolled it back into the garage where the exhaust proceeded to put out a REMARKABLE amount of smoke. After wheeling it back outside (cough) It smoked for about 15 mins. I just thought that the pipe had never been brought to temp so I didn't worry too much about it.
I've got a pretty good idea what was going on now.
Should I be checking the airbox for oil now? Have I done damage?
I e-mailed my shop to let the P.D.I. guy know not to do that.
I think it's ok but I'd like to know what you folks think.
I've sucked it out with a syringe but it is really full of bubbles. Even the next day.
Regards,
Max

[NancysToy]

I have heard of a couple of other incidents like this. Not surprised at the smoke or the bubbles. You will probably be OK, I just wouldn't rev the engine until it stops smoking. Next time it gets to full operating temperature (after a ride, not just on the gauge), shut it off, pull the side panel, run it for 30 seconds, then check the level with the dipstick screwed all the way in. You may need to make further adjustments. Try to get it between the marks, but a little bit off shouldn't hurt a dry sump engine, no matter what BRP thinks. You may also continue to get some oil smoke and odor as the muffler gets hot the first few times you ride.

Most engines, if they don't hydraulic and break a rod or other major component, will survive this just fine. The fact that it turned over was good. It is very possible, and even likely, that the catalytic converter was damaged if you have a stock muffler. Won't hurt the bike, just maybe the environment, if it didn't plug. I'd look for signs of decreased performance as the first symptom of damage to either engine or muffler. Also be on the lookout for excessive foaming of the oil in the tank. Once your oil is hot, and at the correct level, the bubbles should dissipate fairly readily. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
-Scotty http://forum.thestompbox.net/images/smilies/1a_snow.gif

[max continuous]

Thanks for the reply.
I have ridden it a total of 20 ft. so I'm afraid I wouldn't notice degraded performance if it bit me!:dontknow:
So in your opinion the blow by would have occured in the exhaust and not the air box?
I could be confused but I would expect that in a car.
I have been concerned that the couple of times I've started it ....it has run nasty. I just thought that the unstable rpm and backfiring were due to the unit just needing a run. Realistically the thing has probably been started and shut off in the showroom 50 times in it's short life.
Thanks,
Max
P.S. It does turn over slowly but I figured it was the battery being weak from all the showroom starts.

[GA-SPYDER]

Hey Scotty,With it being a dry sump system, shouldn't have to worry about any engine damage?

[NancysToy]

Thanks for the reply.
I have ridden it a total of 20 ft. so I'm afraid I wouldn't notice degraded performance if it bit me!:dontknow:
So in your opinion the blow by would have occured in the exhaust and not the air box?
I could be confused but I would expect that in a car.
I have been concerned that the couple of times I've started it ....it has run nasty. I just thought that the unstable rpm and backfiring were due to the unit just needing a run. Realistically the thing has probably been started and shut off in the showroom 50 times in it's short life.
Thanks,
Max
P.S. It does turn over slowly but I figured it was the battery being weak from all the showroom starts.
I wouldn't be surprised by oil in the airbox, too, but that should just clean out. Check to see it didn't ruin the filter, which could explain running ragged. You may have to check the airbox frequently for a while. These things tend to blow a little oil even without the extra aggravation.

The ragged running could also be due to a low battery. Spyders are very sensitive to that. With a full charge, it should start and run normally as soon as the oil works out of the engine. If the problem continues, you need to see the dealer for sure. Could be the exhaust was ruined, or could indicate engine problems.


Hey Scotty,With it being a dry sump system, shouldn't have to worry about any engine damage?
True, for the most part, but I have seen an engine "reverse-hydraulic" if the oil tank was completely full. Return oil has no place to go, and fills the crankcase. If there is enough, it gets forced past the rings into the cylinders, too. Just have to fix the oil level, turn over, start and run the engine, and evaluate the situation. Every "Oops" can have different results.
-Scotty

[scott]

Scotty---in your post below you say...
Next time it gets to full operating temperature (after a ride, not just on the gauge), shut it off, pull the side panel, run it for 30 seconds, then check the level with the dipstick screwed all the way in.

This seems to say you check it while running ?...think its run for 30 sec, tuen it off and check....true ? (you done this much more than I have on this machine)

thanks

[max continuous]

You can check the oil while it's running if you don't mind being scalded with about a litre of oil.:yikes:
Max

[NancysToy]

Scotty---in your post below you say...
Next time it gets to full operating temperature (after a ride, not just on the gauge), shut it off, pull the side panel, run it for 30 seconds, then check the level with the dipstick screwed all the way in.

This seems to say you check it while running ?...think its run for 30 sec, tuen it off and check....true ? (you done this much more than I have on this machine)

thanks
You are right. I should have been more specific. Glad you knew what I meant to say.
-Scotty http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/weathermanf4.gif

[brutus450]

You can check the oil while it's running if you don't mind being scalded with about a litre of oil.:yikes:
Max

I havent done it on the spyder yet but I have checked the oil in my ATV dry sump system with the ATV running - I do it all the time. It's the only way I can get a consistant read on the dipstick. I never had it spew at me or even close to coming out. I bet the tank and inlet house is configured much different but I wouldnt think it should come out at ya.

[max continuous]

Well I finally got around to siphoning out the excess oil from the tank. (Please don't tell the wife where her turkey baster went!:pray:)
This is what I found. The green swampwater looking stuff is what came from the tank and the other is from a new jug of BRP oil.
I don't have a clue what to make of it. Are they shipped with inhibiting oil and it wasn't removed? I want to warm up the bike and check the oil but I'm not sure I should with this stuff in the system. Bearing in mind the unit has less than 4 km. on it.
Or maybe I'm just paranoid. HELP!
Thanks,
Max

[Dudley]

Max, I am not a mechanic. So my thinking would be to call the dealer and explain your findings. Seems like someone may have screwed up somewhere and your warranty probably rides on this mysterious situation. I can almost bet a dollar to a donut if you don't tell them and something does go wrong it's going to be your nickel. They can say that you didn't know how to read the oil check and overfilled the oil. Just my thoughts.

[max continuous]

I'm with you on that. I'm trying to keep open communication with my dealer and am documenting everything.
Thanks Dudley
P.S. Could it be a special breakin oil they use? Boy will my paranoid face be red then! Still...better safe....

[Dudley]

I'm with you on that. I'm trying to keep open communication with my dealer and am documenting everything.
Thanks Dudley
P.S. Could it be a special breakin oil they use? Boy will my paranoid face be red then! Still...better safe....

I have heard of "special" break-in oil, but who knows. My dealer said that was so. It helps everything seal etc., or whatever happends when an engine is first put to use. I agree with you, better safe than sorry. Put the puppy back in their yard and let them start over again. When I bought ours, I had them show me how to check the oil. That was the best way to know that it was properly set up (the oil at least). Good luck on this one. Better to act now than when something happens.

[max continuous]

Well, I warmed it up for a couple of mins. and re-checked the oil level and it was to the top of the tank again and very foamy. I let it sit for 20 mins. and it was still really foamy.
Dunno...I guess I'll wait to hear from the shop.
Max

[Dudley]

Well, I warmed it up for a couple of mins. and re-checked the oil level and it was to the top of the tank again and very foamy. I let it sit for 20 mins. and it was still really foamy.
Dunno...I guess I'll wait to hear from the shop.
Max

That's what I would do. Maybe even insist (?) they come and get it to correct this.

[NancysToy]

When I bought ours, I had them show me how to check the oil. That was the best way to know that it was properly set up (the oil at least).
Showing the owner how to check the oil, and verifying the level, is supposed to be part of the dealer's ownwer orientation.


Well, I warmed it up for a couple of mins. and re-checked the oil level and it was to the top of the tank again and very foamy. I let it sit for 20 mins. and it was still really foamy.
Dunno...I guess I'll wait to hear from the shop.
Max
Doesn't sound good, Max. I'd have them fetch it and go over it. You may wish to call them first. What is the coolant level like? Water in the oil can cause a high level and foam. Synthetic doesnt' turn tan like conventional oils.


Maybe even insist (?) they come and get it to correct this.

:agree:wholeheartedly!
-Scotty http://forum.thestompbox.net/images/smilies/1a_snow.gif http://forum.thestompbox.net/images/smilies/a---cold.gif

[brutus450]

did you check the coolant level?

[max continuous]

Thanks Scotty and Brutus,
I just checked the coolant level (cold) and it is about a half inch below the max line. I suppose thats good but the oil I siphoned out had a suspicious green swampy colour to it.
I've removed about 2 litres so far and it is at the full line on the dipstick now.
When I was siphoning it looked like if you were melting sugar and butter in a pan. dark and foamy. sorry for the poor descriptions. Who knew we would be pressing frying pans and turkey basters into service just for oil changes!!
Unless it is infact a different breakin oil....the colour is just not right.
Again there are only 4 km. on the unit...how much crud can you get in that period of time!? Not this much in my opinion.
Thanks for all your suggestions...keep em coming.
Warmest regards,
Max

[GA-SPYDER]

I'm with Brutis. When you said green, I was thinking blown head gasket, etc. Not sure what color anti-freeze is in the :spyder:. I've seen some posts on external anti-freeze leaks, but nothing on internal. Still, it is a possibillity.:popcorn:
Keep us posted on what the dealer says.

[max continuous]

O.K. here's the deal from the dealer...they think that because of it's short life it is possible that it has been started and shut down numerous times without coming to full temp. (I would agree)
It is possible to have fouled a plug under those circumstances and the fuel pumps and injectors are still putting out the full fuel pressure. Consequently I could have fuel bypassing the rings and getting into the oil system. (I'm with them so far ..Scotty are you there?...Scotty?:bowdown:) This could account for the over filled situation in the oil tank according to them. Although they do admit that the overfill could be an oops on their part. As I understand it ...ANY liquid including fuel can cause foaming in the oil. (Scotty?..are there yet? Help!)
I came home and looked at the nasty sample in the jar and was hoping to see some separation of liquids but there is none. There is however a smell of fuel to it. Hmmm.
Their advice is to check the plugs for fouling and if so replace and drop the oil for fresh and go from there. Keep starts down to a minimum until I can ride and seat the rings or at least bring it up to operating temp.They have been very good in addressing this to the best of their abilities. I was getting concerned that I had no response so I phoned them. I got no response because there were 3 people trying to solve the problem. It takes time. Very impressed with their efforts. And no..I don't have to pay for the oil/o-rings/filter/plugs etc. And If I wanted to trailer it in they would be more than happy to do it for me. Yeah I know I have roadside assistance but it's no skin off my nose.
All I gotta do now is figure out how to get the plugs out of it or rather how to get to the plugs!
Regards,
Max

[Dudley]

O.K. here's the deal from the dealer...they think that because of it's short life it is possible that it has been started and shut down numerous times without coming to full temp. (I would agree)
It is possible to have fouled a plug under those circumstances and the fuel pumps and injectors are still putting out the full fuel pressure. Consequently I could have fuel bypassing the rings and getting into the oil system. (I'm with them so far ..Scotty are you there?...Scotty?:bowdown:) This could account for the over filled situation in the oil tank according to them. Although they do admit that the overfill could be an oops on their part. As I understand it ...ANY liquid including fuel can cause foaming in the oil. (Scotty?..are there yet? Help!)
I came home and looked at the nasty sample in the jar and was hoping to see some separation of liquids but there is none. There is however a smell of fuel to it. Hmmm.
Their advice is to check the plugs for fouling and if so replace and drop the oil for fresh and go from there. Keep starts down to a minimum until I can ride and seat the rings or at least bring it up to operating temp.They have been very good in addressing this to the best of their abilities. I was getting concerned that I had no response so I phoned them. I got no response because there were 3 people trying to solve the problem. It takes time. Very impressed with their efforts. And no..I don't have to pay for the oil/o-rings/filter/plugs etc. And If I wanted to trailer it in they would be more than happy to do it for me. Yeah I know I have roadside assistance but it's no skin off my nose.
All I gotta do now is figure out how to get the plugs out of it or rather how to get to the plugs!
Regards,
Max

Max, I would have them start from the git-go. I would trailer it to them and ask them to start over. Then I would ask them again to go over the Spyder with you to be sure you have all your questions answered. I know when I buy something that I am really excited about I am listening to half of what they tell me and forget most of that. I am not sure if the gas in the oil is for real... but I am not a mechnic. I would also enlist Lamont's expertise on this, as well as Scotty's. Better to be safe now than sorry later.

[max continuous]

Thanks for the advice Dudley, I'm picking up what your putting down!
I just looked at where the plugs are.:yikes:
It's freaking cold here and a lot of sh@T on the roads. So I'm a bit reluctant to trailer 200 km.
Max

[NancysToy]

O.K. here's the deal from the dealer...they think that because of it's short life it is possible that it has been started and shut down numerous times without coming to full temp. (I would agree)
It is possible to have fouled a plug under those circumstances and the fuel pumps and injectors are still putting out the full fuel pressure. Consequently I could have fuel bypassing the rings and getting into the oil system. (I'm with them so far ..Scotty are you there?...Scotty?:bowdown:) This could account for the over filled situation in the oil tank according to them. Although they do admit that the overfill could be an oops on their part. As I understand it ...ANY liquid including fuel can cause foaming in the oil. (Scotty?..are there yet? Help!)
I came home and looked at the nasty sample in the jar and was hoping to see some separation of liquids but there is none. There is however a smell of fuel to it. Hmmm.
Their advice is to check the plugs for fouling and if so replace and drop the oil for fresh and go from there. Keep starts down to a minimum until I can ride and seat the rings or at least bring it up to operating temp.They have been very good in addressing this to the best of their abilities. I was getting concerned that I had no response so I phoned them. I got no response because there were 3 people trying to solve the problem. It takes time. Very impressed with their efforts. And no..I don't have to pay for the oil/o-rings/filter/plugs etc. And If I wanted to trailer it in they would be more than happy to do it for me. Yeah I know I have roadside assistance but it's no skin off my nose.
All I gotta do now is figure out how to get the plugs out of it or rather how to get to the plugs!
Regards,
Max
The fuel smell in the oil indicates they could be on the right track, but it would have to be very strong for this much volume increase. I agree with the advice to have them take it and start over again. Fouled plugs, no matter how you ran it, or how often, are a fault...not the norm. An engine that is running properly can idle for hours on end, and restart dozens of times repeatedly. This is not a racing machine. This explanation would also explain the ragged running you experienced.

I agree with those who said they should trailer it back to the shop and correct the problems. This should not be your responsibility! At this point it needs a minimum of new plugs, fresh oil, and a new filter and crush washers. They should run a full diagnostic, and check the entire ignition system and function. They also need to do a compression check to determine if the cylinders were damaged. Washing down the oil on the cylinder walls with fuel often scrapes the walls and damages the rings. In the long run, be wary of problems with bearings and lower end damage from the oil dilution. Camshaft problems are possible, too. This type of damage could take a while to show up. Not trying to scare you, the majority of engines survive a problem like this, I just want you to be aware of the possibilities and what needs to be checked and watched. Time to lean on your dealer to make this right.
-Scotty

[max continuous]

Thanks for your advice Scotty,
I think you and others are right. It's time to stop being a nice Canadian boy and ship it's beautiful butt back to the dealer.
I really appreciate all the info from you folks. I'm not without mechanical skills but sometimes a second opinion from people more in the know clears ones head.
Thanks again,
Max

[max continuous]

O.K. The bike goes back to the dealer on the 19th. (my choice)
Scotty ...would doing a compression test at 4 km. show any ring damage?
I'm not sure the rings would be seated at this point and you wouldn't get a true test. As for the rest of your suggestions..This bike is not coming home until they have performed all tests you suggested.
Thanks again for your/everyones help,
Max

[NancysToy]

O.K. The bike goes back to the dealer on the 19th. (my choice)
Scotty ...would doing a compression test at 4 km. show any ring damage?
I'm not sure the rings would be seated at this point and you wouldn't get a true test. As for the rest of your suggestions..This bike is not coming home until they have performed all tests you suggested.
Thanks again for your/everyones help,
Max
If the Spyder had only fouled one cylinder, and had damage there, that cylinder should differ significantly from the other. The rings are not fully seated, but compression should still be within limits, although it may at or just below the low side. If both plugs fouled, you won't learn anything from the compression test unless both cylinders test real bad. Once you start riding it, you can look for signs of performance loss or smoking, too. Glad your dealer is willing (even if pushed a bit). Let us know how things work out. At least you aren't missing any riding right now. :D
-Scotty http://forum.thestompbox.net/images/smilies/a---cold.gif