Ambient Air Temp Sensor Relocation

[The Governor]

2010, RTS-SM5. The ambient temp sensor primarily supplies important variable information to the ECM for air/fuel ratio mixture, and shows the rider (roughly) the outside air temperature, I felt it has been poorly located from the factory. For those that don't know where it lives, it is located out of any airflow on the right side of the frunk inboard of the right fog light assembly. It is held in place by one bolt, 10mm.
I removed the sensor, unplugged it, and decided to mount it directly above my new air cleaner (THANKS JT!) I installed the new air ducting mod last year to resolve the cooling issues, and thus creating massive amounts of cooling air to now flow into and thru the engine compartment. I will certainly update this post with any and all results from my new mod....
One observation prior to this mod- the static air temp at startup was typically incorrect, and now in a position of high airflow, I'm interested to see how quickly it will correct itself...

Gov

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I had an issue with the Sensor also........But basically you took the Sensor from where there was NO engine heat to where there is a LOT of Heat.................and you think this is better because you have some better AIR DUCTS..................might work........BUT DON"T STOP :lecturef_smilie: :gaah:......:banghead:.......because those AIR ducts ( if not using forced air from a FAN ) won't do you much good .......just a thought , Mike :bbq:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

2010, RTS-SM5. The ambient temp sensor primarily supplies important variable information to the ECM for air/fuel ratio mixture, and shows the rider (roughly) the outside air temperature, I felt it has been poorly located from the factory. For those that don't know where it lives, it is located out of any airflow on the right side of the frunk inboard of the right fog light assembly. It is held in place by one bolt, 10mm.
I removed the sensor, unplugged it, and decided to mount it directly above my new air cleaner (THANKS JT!) I installed the new air ducting mod last year to resolve the cooling issues, and thus creating massive amounts of cooling air to now flow into and thru the engine compartment. I will certainly update this post with any and all results from my new mod....
One observation prior to this mod- the static air temp at startup was typically incorrect, and now in a position of high airflow, I'm interested to see how quickly it will correct itself...

Gov
It's actually an Ambient Air Pressure and Temperature Sensor. The temperature part will most likely be OK in the new location, but the pressure part of its operation may be affected. I don't know how critical the pressure reading is for the ECM control but I'm sure the reason it's located above the air duct is to avoid false pressure readings caused by air ram pressure. Moving air doesn't give the same pressure reading as does still air.

Let us know how it works out in its new location.

[The Governor]

I had an issue with the Sensor also........But basically you took the Sensor from where there was NO engine heat to where there is a LOT of Heat.................and you think this is better because you have some better AIR DUCTS..................might work........BUT DON"T STOP :lecturef_smilie: :gaah:......:banghead:.......because those AIR ducts ( if not using forced air from a FAN ) won't do you much good .......just a thought , Mike :bbq:

My goal is to accurately represent the temperature of air actually entering the motor, not keep the sensor cooler. Since I installed the air ducts, I can no longer cook eggs in the console... The airflow is fantastic, even at 10 mph. The location change will now provide much better info to the ECM.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

My goal is to accurately represent the temperature of air actually entering the motor, not keep the sensor cooler. Since I installed the air ducts, I can no longer cook eggs in the console... The airflow is fantastic, even at 10 mph. The location change will now provide much better info to the ECM.
In my question to you about this ....I stated STOPPED, not 10 MPH ....there's a HUGH difference............... But I'd like you to think of this scenario .......before you moved the SENSOR the reading might have been 90 * on a day when the AIR was 85*......But now the sensor is directly over that " 998 " motor ( which is known to run very HOT ) and the sensor may be telling the ECU that the AIR temp is now 185* ( and I have checked this with a thermal heat gun )...........maybe it will have zero effect.....but if so, why did BRP connect the Air Sensor to the ECU in the first place ...................good luck........Mike :bbq:

[The Governor]

In my question to you about this ....I stated STOPPED, not 10 MPH ....there's a HUGH difference............... But I'd like you to think of this scenario .......before you moved the SENSOR the reading might have been 90 * on a day when the AIR was 85*......But now the sensor is directly over that " 998 " motor ( which is known to run very HOT ) and the sensor may be telling the ECU that the AIR temp is now 185* ( and I have checked this with a thermal heat gun )...........maybe it will have zero effect.....but if so, why did BRP connect the Air Sensor to the ECU in the first place ...................good luck........Mike :bbq:

Exactly my point. If the air above the motor is 185* then the air entering the throttle body with the new open air filter setup will be 185*. The sensor is now located where it can represent the temperature of the air entering the motor. When it was located by the frunk, Texas heat, at times, was reflecting 114* for example, even at highway speeds. Like a hot car with the windows up. I simply rolled the windows down.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Exactly my point. If the air above the motor is 185* then the air entering the throttle body with the new open air filter setup will be 185*. The sensor is now located where it can represent the temperature of the air entering the motor. When it was located by the frunk, Texas heat, at times, was reflecting 114* for example, even at highway speeds. Like a hot car with the windows up. I simply rolled the windows down.
Well your explanation makes sense.....if the engine is getting 185* degree air, than the ECU should know this and adjust accordingly................MY GS and RSS had tubing attached to the air scoops to get cooler air to the Throttle bodies, I probably should have moved the air sensor to reflect that :banghead: ..............Mike :bbq:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Exactly my point. If the air above the motor is 185* then the air entering the throttle body with the new open air filter setup will be 185*. The sensor is now located where it can represent the temperature of the air entering the motor. When it was located by the frunk, Texas heat, at times, was reflecting 114* for example, even at highway speeds. Like a hot car with the windows up. I simply rolled the windows down.
The only problem is if sensor reads 120+ the ECM throws error codes.

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[DrewNJ]

Any concerns with heat soak having it mounted to an aluminum plate on top of the motor? I agree with Mike, stop/go traffic or long periods of sitting would be the areas to watch.

Might be worth getting some true temp readings under there and compare them to the temp readings of the stock location away from the motor. Its typically going to be warmer closer to the motor. This is the reason I'm still not into those types of intakes. That design died in the 70's for a reason.

Good luck though, interested in seeing what your thoughts are as you get a chance to test it all out.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Bob Denman]

I think that :agree: with Mike and Doug...
The AAPT was designed to work in still air. I'd be concerned with the affect that your location has on the pressure readings... :dontknow:

[The Governor]

I think that :agree: with Mike and Doug...
The AAPT was designed to work in still air. I'd be concerned with the affect that your location has on the pressure readings... :dontknow:

It's not a confined space. I would agree pressure readings would be affected if I were mechanically compressing the air, such as a turbo, or supercharger. There are multiple locations for airflow to enter and escape the engine compartment, therefore a differential pressure will be null. This location will reflect actual air temp going into the motor. If I'm wrong, I prefer wing sauce on my crow....lol....more to come after riding. All of my parts are due back from powdercoat today!

[Bob Denman]

BRP planned on having that sensor still in still air...
Putting it up that close to the induction pieces?? :dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

Keep an eye on things, and I hope that it all works the way that you got it planned. :thumbup:

[Highwayman2013]

See how it goes. Will it make the A/F richer or leaner? I know most temp sensors are moved to cooler locations to richen up the A/F mixture. Keep us posted.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The only problem is if sensor reads 120+ the ECM throws error codes.

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Now this bit of info is interesting........Not something I was aware of :dontknow: :banghead:..................Mike :thumbup:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Now this bit of info is interesting........Not something I was aware of :dontknow: :banghead:..................Mike :thumbup:
Parked in 105 degree sun it gets over 120 under the tupperware!

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[Bob Denman]

:D I've heard of this happening. Thanks for letting us know that it's based in fact! :thumbup:

[Chupaca]

Lots of views on the effects and side effects. I left it right where it was but added a turbo fan with direct flow to the air filter with no change at all...:thumbup:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125522&stc=1 wish I knew how to flip the picture but the other side cool the rear cylinder ....

[ARtraveler]

Interesting subject. Not mechanical, but I will come back and see what you folks figure out as the thread progresses. :thumbup:

[spyderCodes]

So you feel that because the ambient air temp as shown on your display is incorrect therefore the ECM must be getting bad information.

All you have to do is put it in a different place and you probably have solved most of the engineering problems that BRP is working on.


The fact is that I imagine BRP is really sorry they placed the display on the dash in the first place.

The AAPT or AATP (I can't remember which it is) doesn't have to be accurate and agree with the Bank Temperature point of view.
You all do remember the time & temp on digital Bank signs ... right? OK I'm old. I remember walking up to the bank at midnight just to see if it really said -10.
But I digress.

It has to be repeatable, not accurate.

There is a difference.
And the curve that was used to calibrate the ECMs of all Spyders was based on the data received from the sensor where it was installed on the production Spyders, not where you could move it to get it to read 70 degrees when your bank said it was 70.

Or 17 if you happen to believe in the Celsius Church doctrine.

[Bob Denman]

That sounds about like what Roger said about two year's ago... :agree:

[The Governor]

Lots of views on the effects and side effects. I left it right where it was but added a turbo fan with direct flow to the air filter with no change at all...:thumbup:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=125522&stc=1 wish I knew how to flip the picture but the other side cool the rear cylinder ....

Nicely done!:clap:

[The Governor]

Update!

I certainly appreciate all of the input! Blueknight911, you were correct about the location directly above the new JT Aircleaner. I decided to move it just inboard of the coolant reservoir, sensing air from the upper right duct/wheel well area. Outside of the engine compartment, in free flow, but protected from any foreign object damage or contact.
The results:
My temp indication is near dead on. I rode her hard and fast, and also just a standard ride. After logging 112 miles, my feeling is she runs better than she ever has. Stopping during the ride did show an increase in ambient temperature, but was very quickly returned to an accurate representation of the current temp in less than 1/4 mile! She responded perfectly out of the gate, and at 105 mph. Airflow across the sensor, in my testing, was beneficial. Pressure variance was minimal, as it wasn't directly in ram air.
Summary- I believe the air temp/pressure sensor is now providing a more accurate picture of my riding enviroment, since primarily the temperature is much more in line with real time. If there is any adverse reaction over time or the next 10k miles, I will be sure to update.
Thanks again to all who posted responses!
Gov

[spyderCodes]

I was going to post a reply that included the formula used by typical ECMs to determine the length of time injectors are opened based on temperature and pressure.

But I Gilliganed into something better.
A link to an online ecm calculator.
http://stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

It takes some reading to understand how to use it but the neat thing is you can watch the difference in injector performance by only changing one parameter.

You can plug in various operating parameters and watch what happens to the length of time injectors are on (They call it Duty Cycle).

It effectively demonstrates what a small effect minor differences in temperature have on the actual duty cycle.
For example the duty cycle of an injector with an air temp of 95F was 48.04%, at 90F it was 48.47%
A difference to be sure but it is represents only a 0.89% of change in the duty cycle.
What that means is that small variances have only very minor effects on the injector duty cycle.

[The Governor]

I was going to post a reply that included the formula used by typical ECMs to determine the length of time injectors are opened based on temperature and pressure.

But I Gilliganed into something better.
A link to an online ecm calculator.
http://stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

It takes some reading to understand how to use it but the neat thing is you can watch the difference in injector performance by only changing one parameter.

You can plug in various operating parameters and watch what happens to the length of time injectors are on (They call it Duty Cycle).

It effectively demonstrates what a small effect minor differences in temperature have on the actual duty cycle.
For example the duty cycle of an injector with an air temp of 95F was 48.04%, at 90F it was 48.47%
A difference to be sure but it is represents only a 0.89% of change in the duty cycle.
What that means is that small variances have only very minor effects on the injector duty cycle.

Albeit a small duty cycle variation at 5F, the radiant heat in Texas summer, has shown a greater than 20F difference between actual and ambient (parked in the sun). It takes 15-20 minutes of riding to get even close to actual temp.
My goal here was not to make a massive difference in performance. It was, however, to provide more accurate information to the ECM. In a world where we will spend hundreds of dollars on anything that may gain 1-2 hp on a vehicle (in theory), this was an easy change that quite frankly, I thought would be more embraced. If anything, I have an accurate temp gauge now...lol
Spydercodes- I cannot give you enough high praise for your knowledge and APP. You and this site are the most useful tools I need for Spyder ownership. This spring will be 30 years in Aircraft Maintenance, and 39 years riding some type of motorcycle. What you do enables many to own and maintain, such a fantastic machine. Thank you.
Gov

[KageRider]

Update!

I certainly appreciate all of the input! Blueknight911, you were correct about the location directly above the new JT Aircleaner. I decided to move it just inboard of the coolant reservoir, sensing air from the upper right duct/wheel well area. Outside of the engine compartment, in free flow, but protected from any foreign object damage or contact.
The results:
My temp indication is near dead on. I rode her hard and fast, and also just a standard ride. After logging 112 miles, my feeling is she runs better than she ever has. Stopping during the ride did show an increase in ambient temperature, but was very quickly returned to an accurate representation of the current temp in less than 1/4 mile! She responded perfectly out of the gate, and at 105 mph. Airflow across the sensor, in my testing, was beneficial. Pressure variance was minimal, as it wasn't directly in ram air.
Summary- I believe the air temp/pressure sensor is now providing a more accurate picture of my riding enviroment, since primarily the temperature is much more in line with real time. If there is any adverse reaction over time or the next 10k miles, I will be sure to update.
Thanks again to all who posted responses!
Gov

Maybe I missed something... But can you describe where you put the sensor? I am looking to move mine as well, but I don't know where and it seems like you have got it figured out. Pictures? Maybe?:nopic:

[pitzerwm]

132765

Normally, my pictures were larger, I'm using the same upload method, what's changed at my end?

[KageRider]

Is that the new location? Or the one you tried originally?

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

132765

Normally, my pictures were larger, I'm using the same upload method, what's changed at my end?
Nothing, at your end I don't think. Something about the forum s/w has changed. The post includes a thumbnail size version only. You have to click on the pic to get a full size version. This is the way, I think, pics have always been when you add them with the manage attachments button below the edit box. Maybe the Insert Image icon method above the edit box has been changed.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

132765

Normally, my pictures were larger, I'm using the same upload method, what's changed at my end?


Nothing, at your end I don't think. Something about the forum s/w has changed. The post includes a thumbnail size version only. You have to click on the pic to get a full size version. This is the way, I think, pics have always been when you add them with the manage attachments button below the edit box. Maybe the Insert Image icon method above the edit box has been changed.
I just looked at one of my posts in 2014 where I used the Manage Attachments method. What we're experiencing with the Insert Image icon matches the other method.

So no, you are not doing anything wrong or different. The forum software is.

[spyderCodes]

if you want a full size picture like this:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=130225&d=1463507252
or like this
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=130207&d=1463488541




Then
1. upload the jpg to an album & save same.
2. copy the photo url from the the proper box
3. Un-select the "Retrieve from remote file and refernece locally"

[The Governor]

Maybe I missed something... But can you describe where you put the sensor? I am looking to move mine as well, but I don't know where and it seems like you have got it figured out. Pictures? Maybe?:nopic:

I had it mounted aft of the coolant reservoir, but it picked up too much radiant heat when standing still in Texas heat...lol
Now she lives in the upper right air duct. I have logged about 800 miles with her here, and she runs perfectly, with an accurate reading on temp as well...