Laser Alignment Question

[robmorg]

Having had a laser alignment previously done, but never having seen the process being performed, I have a question for those with experience...

If I understand it correctly, the laser alignment process aligns the front wheels with the rear one. So my question is... does removing and reinstalling the rear wheel negate the effect of the alignment? In other words, when you replace a rear tire, should you then do another laser alignment? http://robmorgan.net/img-sm/free-indifferent-smileys-697.gif

Also, would the answer be different when replacing front tires?

[Chupaca]

it would be very difficult if not impossible to remove and re-install the rear wheel to the same position as it was when the alignment was done. If whoever is doing it is good you can come close. So if there is a down side to the laser alignment being used it would be that you really should have it checked after changing tires or even doing belt adjustments. The alternative seems to be less acurate at best. Many of the good folks doing these alignments won't charge if none is needed. Squared Away did mine a year ago and I have done work on the rear and will have them check it this year and see how much has changed...:thumbup:

[Roadster Renovations]

it would be very difficult if not impossible to remove and re-install the rear wheel to the same position as it was when the alignment was done. If whoever is doing it is good you can come close. So if there is a down side to the laser alignment being used it would be that you really should have it checked after changing tires or even doing belt adjustments. The alternative seems to be less acurate at best. Many of the good folks doing these alignments won't charge if none is needed. Squared Away did mine a year ago and I have done work on the rear and will have them check it this year and see how much has changed...:thumbup:

Having some on hands experience with removing and re-installing the rear tire, adjusting the belt tension and tracking, it has to be very accurate or the belt won't track like it should. Just a very small 1/8th of a turn on the adjuster will cause that belt to not track correctly. I think that if someone knows what they are doing, and the belt was properly adjusted for tracking and tension when the alignment was done, they could return it to the original settings. I know it took a dozen times for me to get the tension and tracking correct to my satisfaction, so I am no expert.
Having said that, most laser aligners will check it for free, so it would be a good idea, whether front or rear tires were changed or belt tension and track was adjusted. A friend of mine does laser alignments and I know for a fact that if the belt is out of adjustment he will not do it because of that. So, the short answer I would say is either YES or at least have it checked.

[PaladinLV]

I remember Joe from SquaredAway said there was a "trick" in removing the rear wheel and keeping the alignment. Unfortunately, the grey matter did not retain what he said.
You may want to look at the emails given on the Squared Away ad on home page and send Joe a PM or Email.

I will say that I believe they are presently out of town doing their business :)

AJ


Having had a laser alignment previously done, but never having seen the process being performed, I have a question for those with experience...

If I understand it correctly, the laser alignment process aligns the front wheels with the rear one. So my question is... does removing and reinstalling the rear wheel negate the effect of the alignment? In other words, when you replace a rear tire, should you then do another laser alignment? http://robmorgan.net/img-sm/free-indifferent-smileys-697.gif

Also, would the answer be different when replacing front tires?

[Orange Spyder Man]

I had my spyder aligned at SpyderFest by Lamont ..as best as I can remember he said to follow this procedure to maintain alignment... jack up the rear.. remove the shock bolt.. loosen the axle bolt.. don't mess with the adjusters.. slide the axle bolt out and leave the rear pulley & belt in place.. remove just he rear wheel .. then reverse the procedure when re-installing the rear wheel & new tire..

osm

[Roadster Renovations]

I had my spyder aligned at SpyderFest by Lamont ..as best as I can remember he said to follow this procedure to maintain alignment... jack up the read.. remove the shock bolt.. loosen the axle bolt.. don't mess with the adjusters.. slide the axle bolt out and leave the rear pulley & belt in place.. remove just he rear wheel .. then reverse the procedure when re-installing the rear wheel & new tire..

osm

Sounds spot on except if you have automatic ride control. You must disconnect the sensor on belt side before dropping the wheel or could damage it. Also, many people let the air out of the air bag to keep from damaging it. I believe the bleeder valve is under the seat.

[SpyderAnn01]

Put a piece of tape on the axle adjusters to keep them from moving and you should be good.

[donkes]

A lot to know, and I learned a lot.

thnx

[Lamonster]

I tell people if your belt alignment is within spec your wheel alignment will still be good, for sure it will be better than it came from the factory 99% of the time.

[Bob Denman]

I spoke with Ron up at Netzley's about this very issue.
It's the adjusters that actually set up where the wheel will be positioned.
As long as they remain un-tinkered-with, and you seat the wheel back against them nice and tight; all will be just as it was. :thumbup:

The front wheels are unaffected, by pulling them for a tire change.

[robmorg]

Thank you everyone for all the helpful answers. It all makes sense, but I would never have known it without asking. So I learned something today. :thumbup:

[skeetshooter]

You don't have to touch the adjusters when chang the tire.Jack up rear end till tire just clears the groud,your will have some play in your belt.All you have to do walk belt off sprocket take wheel off.Then put new tire on put axel in walk belt back on.I have put 6 or 8 tires on this way works perfect.:yes:

[elkk]

I watched and spoke with the techs at Spyderfest doing laser alignments. Laser alignment only adjusts toe-in and it looks to me to be a lot of room for error given a portable setup etc. I had mine done at that time, no noticeable difference I can see or feel. Unfortunately tire wear will be the true indicator of just how perfect the alignment is. My 2 cents.

[DrewNJ]

I watched and spoke with the techs at Spyderfest doing laser alignments. Laser alignment only adjusts toe-in and it looks to me to be a lot of room for error given a portable setup etc. I had mine done at that time, no noticeable difference I can see or feel. Unfortunately tire wear will be the true indicator of just how perfect the alignment is. My 2 cents.
Also, Keep in mind that the alignment changes constantly as the suspension cycles while your riding down the road.

[hillybillyheaven]

Also, Keep in mind that the alignment changes constantly as the suspension cycles while your riding down the road.

When Mike did my align in florida he mentioned that the Spyder has bump steer...which means when the rider steps onto the Spyder toe comes OUT of the bike...so make sure you have enough to start with so it never goes to toe OUT

[Roadster Renovations]

That is why standing (loaded height) is so important. When we travel, with our physical weight and what we carry, it caused the bike to sit too low in front. This caused toe-out. The "miracle nuts" I fabbed corrected that after a laser alignment. My tires were "cupping" on the inside. Now they are wearing correctly.

[stillriding]

[QUOTE=Doc Humphreys;981937]That is why standing (loaded height) is so important. When we travel, with our physical weight and what we carry, it caused the bike to sit too low in front. This caused toe-out. The "miracle nuts" I fabbed corrected that after a laser alignment. My tires were "cupping" on the inside. Now they are wearing correctly.[/QUOTDoc, may I please impose upon you to elaborate? I just replaced my front tires on my '14RTS because my right tire was wearing excessively and cupping. The left was in great shape. I had a laser alignment done at Spyderfest LAST year and I suppose the alignment could have changed. By "loaded height" should I have been on the Spyder during the alignment? And what are your "miracle nuts?" The dealer who just mounted my new tires says they high-speed balanced the wheels, but now it's shaking like an old washing machine. By the way, my dealer has had several '14 RTs with a right wear problem. I had only 6100 miles on the Spyder.

[Roadster Renovations]

[QUOTE=Doc Humphreys;981937]That is why standing (loaded height) is so important. When we travel, with our physical weight and what we carry, it caused the bike to sit too low in front. This caused toe-out. The "miracle nuts" I fabbed corrected that after a laser alignment. My tires were "cupping" on the inside. Now they are wearing correctly.[/QUOTDoc, may I please impose upon you to elaborate? I just replaced my front tires on my '14RTS because my right tire was wearing excessively and cupping. The left was in great shape. I had a laser alignment done at Spyderfest LAST year and I suppose the alignment could have changed. By "loaded height" should I have been on the Spyder during the alignment? And what are your "miracle nuts?" The dealer who just mounted my new tires says they high-speed balanced the wheels, but now it's shaking like an old washing machine. By the way, my dealer has had several '14 RTs with a right wear problem. I had only 6100 miles on the Spyder.

Some of the front tires on the '14 were out of round. Sounds like that might be your problem. Reason I know is that I have one of them. Tell me, was the wear on the inside or outside? That is moot at this point since you replaced them. I may be wrong here, but the alignment should be based upon the normal riding conditions. If you ride 2 up most of the time, the alignment should be done and then checked with you both on the bike. Now there may be a reason that is not done that way that I'm not aware of. I'm sure someone that does laser alignments should be able to give you the correct scoop on that. The problem we had with our '14 RTS was that it was really loose in the curves and corners. We ride 2 up and we are not small people. I created a insert called a Spring Stiffener that slips between the coils and expands as it rotates and isolates that part of the spring. It does make the ride a little stiffer, but the trade-off is like being on rails when cornering. We have sold quite a few of them. I think we sold 5 sets last week. I keep making them and people keep using them so they do work. When I put my set on and got them adjusted, I got a laser alignment done and that stopped the inner wear on both tires. That was almost 10K ago and they are now wearing fairly evenly. If you want to read up on what other riders have said about the Stiffeners, use the search function in the upper right and put Spring Stiffeners in there. If you need more info, holler!

[stillriding]

[QUOTE=Doc Humphreys;982022][QUOTE=stillriding;981985]

Some of the front tires on the '14 were out of round. Sounds like that might be your problem. Reason I know is that I have one of them. Tell me, was the wear on the inside or outside? That is moot at this point since you replaced them. I may be wrong here, but the alignment should be based upon the normal riding conditions. If you ride 2 up most of the time, the alignment should be done and then checked with you both on the bike. Now there may be a reason that is not done that way that I'm not aware of. I'm sure someone that does laser alignments should be able to give you the correct scoop on that. The problem we had with our '14 RTS was that it was really loose in the curves and corners. We ride 2 up and we are not small people. I created a insert called a Spring Stiffener that slips between the coils and expands as it rotates and isolates that part of the spring. It does make the ride a little stiffer, but the trade-off is like being on rails when cornering. We have sold quite a few of them. I think we sold 5 sets last week. I keep making them and people keep using them so they do work. When I put my set on and got them adjusted, I got a laser alignment done and that stopped the inner wear on both tires. That was almost 10K ago and they are now wearing fairly evenly. If you want to read up on what other riders have said about the Stiffeners, use the search function in the upper right and put Spring Stiffeners in there. If you need more info, holler![/QUOTEThanks for your quick response, Doc. The wear and cupping was general...not really inside or outside. Using a tread depth gauge and measuring in several areas on either side of the "center line," the depth at some points was down to 3/32". In my non-mechanical and non-engineering mind I agree that the alignment should be done with the bike loaded. Seems logical to me. Now it'll be back to the dealer to find out why it's shaking. Overall though, this RTS is far superior to the 2010 I had.

[DrewNJ]

Is it cupping or feathering? My fronts are feathering slightly front to back, but I run a bit more toe-in than normal. I just like the way it handles that way.
What kind of mileage?

[stillriding]

[QUOTE=DrewNJ;982089]Is it cupping or feathering? My fronts are feathering slightly front to back, but I run a bit more toe-in than normal. I just like the way it handles that way.
What kind of mileage?[/QUOTEThe term "feathering" is new to me so I don't know what the difference is. A friend said it was cupping and it's very noticeable by feel and when the sun's angle hits it just right. Noticed at 6,100 miles.

[DrewNJ]

Cupping is when the center of the tire is worn more than the edges. Feathering is where the tire has a sharp edge on the tread. You notice feathering more as you run your hand across the tread.
Cupping is almost always due to over inflation and feathering is generally due to toe.
A LOT of people use feathering and cupping interchangeably for a feathering issue.
Either way, at 6100miles you've got something a bit "off". Especially if it's only on one wheel. The vibrations also suggest balance issues in some way.

[Roadster Renovations]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108134&stc=1
This is the difference of feathering and cupping. Both can be either on the inner or outer tire. Haven't heard about the center wearing due to tow. When the tire is toed-in it will "skip" on it's edge. Same if toed-out on the outer edge. Mine were cupping and they were not overinflated. I run less that what BRP recommends. Also, negative camber will cause this also. That is when the ride height is too low and causing the top part of the tire to learn to the inside. That is why loaded standing height is so important.

[DrewNJ]

Great pics Doc!

[stillriding]

Great pics Doc!Thanks Doc and Drew. Now the rest of the story. As I mentioned earlier, after the new tires were installed, my Spyder was shaking like an old washing machine and it was pulling to the right. Previously, the bike ran straight and steady. I got to thinking that perhaps my dealer really didn't high-speed balance the wheels, so today I went looking for a place with the necessary adapters for their balancer to get them balanced. To save a trip to my dealer. I ended up at a Polaris dealer and guess what? My left tie rod was loose! So loose that you could turn the jam nut by hand. Don't you think that this could have caused my rapid and uneven tire wear? And how dangerous was it? I suppose I should accept some responsibility for this, but how would I have known to look? Except for my dealer installing BajaRon's bar, nothing's been done in that area. Nothing except the laser alignment that I had done at Spyderfest LAST year. (It was not done by Squared Away.) And why didn't my dealer find it, if not when mounting new tires, during other service work performed by them? I always ask them to check everything. So my RTS is back at the dealer for a laser alignment. Plus the $45.00 spent at the Polaris dealer to get it safe and rideable to get home. Over 300-bucks that I shouldn't have had to spend. And I didn't even have time to sit in a Slingshot today!

[GeorgiaBill]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108134&stc=1
This is the difference of feathering and cupping. Both can be either on the inner or outer tire. Haven't heard about the center wearing due to tow. When the tire is toed-in it will "skip" on it's edge. Same if toed-out on the outer edge. Mine were cupping and they were not overinflated. I run less that what BRP recommends. Also, negative camber will cause this also. That is when the ride height is too low and causing the top part of the tire to learn to the inside. That is why loaded standing height is so important.

Doc, I'm trying to decide whether to buy a Spyder and if so, which one. I've been reading a lot of posts and watching a lot of videos. You mentioned camber in your post, and I've been wondering about camber. I put a Hannigan sidecar on a GL1800 in 2006 and it had an Electric Camber Control which seemed necessary to get a level ride and keep the rig from pulling downhill. I adjusted camber relentlessly with every change in the road surface. If you have an opinion why some type of camber adjustment is not needed on the Spyder, I would appreciate reading that opinion.

Thanks
-Bill

[Bfromla]

Was close to change on my front fyi @ spyderfest so I asked squared away. & very direct reply was np only hitting objects ,potholes has the real effect of quickly undoing allingment. & even back here in Louisiana it seems to be holding well 7k miles later. Am looking to add as a yearly check up. (More spyderfest:ohyea:). Fyi on my caged rides even if u rotate tires & avoid the worst roads you best ck 1a year or get new tires cuz its GONNA screw you up! Tend to see lot of highschool kids (& lazys) stuck on side of road where whole TIRE,Hub & all gave it up & BROKE OFF!nojoke:yikes::popcorn: & of course the state does nothing but find ways to blame improper maintance:banghead: