Baja Ron's RT shock adjuster - Report

[NautiBrit]

I'm one of Ron's test pilots for the front shock pre-load adjuster that he's developing and I'm providing this update with his permission. To provide some background, I've been riding for over 40 years and currently have a 2013 RT-S and a 1997 Honda Valkyrie. I started on Spyders in 2008 with a GS that I accessorized for touring and put over 30,000 miles on it before trading for the 2013 which now has over 27,000 miles. I installed Ron's sway bar on both of the Spyders and was pleased with the results, so was very happy to install and test ride the adjuster. I'm currently running OEM front tires with about 11,000 miles on them (they were replaced under warranty due to bad alignment from the factory). My rear tire is Kumho Ecsta that has about 15,000 miles on it and will be replaced in another 5,000 miles or so. Pressures are kept at 19psi front and 32-34psi rear.

To save you having to read the entire post, the adjuster is a very worthwhile addition, adding increased stability, control and roll resistance.

For those that want the details - The shocks on the 2013 and 2014 are slightly different diameters and the initial adjusters that I received were for the 2014. Once I had the correct size, I removed the original shocks, removed the springs, installed the adjuster and re-installed the shocks. Ron's instructions were complete and everything needed for the install was included in the kit. The lower shock bolts were easy to remove and replace, but the uppers were a tight fit, especially on the left side. Unless you remove body parts, you will be working blind, but the instructions are clear and comprehensive. Again, my Spyder is a 2013, if you have a 2014 or 2015 your install may vary. The entire process took about 2 hours, and will be subject to the amount and type of your beverage of choice. Being an Englishman, I had a nice cuppa tea.

At first I noticed that the revised shocks had increased my ride height by about an inch, but after a short ride, the springs settled in the adjuster and the ride height was within an 1/8" of the original. I started with the adjusters turned all the way down and felt an immediate improvement in ride, handling and stability. I added a full turn and felt that the ride was a little too harsh. The spanner that Ron provides fits well and provides adequate leverage, but some may find that it's a little difficult to turn the collar. I have suggested to Ron that the spark plug wrench and extension from the Spyder tool kit can be used to provide additional leverage, if necessary.

I have now put about 500 miles on the adjusters and my initial thoughts on the amount of pre-load have changed. As I have adjusted to the firmness, I now find that three full turns suit my riding style much better. I do a lot of riding with my wife as a passenger and her comments were that she doesn't feel as though she's being thrown off the bike in a corner (I like to ride aggressively) and that she's not thrown forward as much in a hard stop. I have also noticed that the front end does not dip when applying the brakes hard.

Here in Arizona we have a Tail of the Dragon road know as Hwy 89 that runs from Wickenburg, up Yarnell Hill and on to Prescott. Typically I will set off the nanny many times during that trip, but with the adjuster, the cut-in point is noticeably increased and only the tightest corners get a slap on the wrist from nanny.

As I concluded above, the adjuster offers better handling, stability and roll resistance with the added bonus of increasing Mama's happiness. That in itself is priceless.

[spacetiger]

George,

you our posted very good information about you and the bike to help others. I am still trying to gleeman some objective numbers to see how the adjuster is performing. Example:

preload.
can you cite your weight and number of turns it took to set proper sag. If about 4 to 5 people would do this, a table could be made so others could pick the right setting first time. The key to building the table is collecting the right data that corresponds to the right number of turns it took to set the sag for your weight. Do you know how to check the front sag for the spyder?

Top end.
Even though you set the sag right, it doesn't mean you are finished. You need to know how the spring is literally holding up over the entire riding envelope. The key here is to not bottom out at the top end. This is the part wher is has traditionally done subjectively, like you did in your post. There is a another way to do this if you are willing to try. Pm me and I can walk you through it.

keep posting on your observer actions.

jerry

[Magdave]

:nopic:

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for the report! :clap: :2thumbs:
Now all that I need to do...

...is figure out how to explain to the Missus, that it's an upgrade from BRP! :D

[NautiBrit]

Thanks for the responses and enquiries, I'll try to respond as best as I can.

The difference between unloaded (wheels up) and resting (wheels down, no load) sag is 3/8" and between resting and loaded (I'm 180lbs fully equipped) is another 3/8" and that number remains consistent between 0-3 turns of pre-load. I don't have a measurement of the total suspension movement, so cannot convert my results into a percentage or fraction. It would appear that sag is not as critical on a Spyder as it is in the two wheeled world and seat of the pants judgements are more meaningful. As for testing the top end, I'm OK with doing that, but in the real world nanny wouldn't let you get close to that reality.

I do understand the call for photos, but am reluctant to show a developmental product as it may bear little resemblance to the finished item. I'll leave that call to Ron.

[BajaRon]

:nopic:

Bluehole posted a picture in his post here.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?76709-From-the-13-th-of-Jan-to-present

The finished product will be physically similar to the one in the picture, though we put no effort into cosmetics on these prototype sets.

Because these Adjusters will be fairly prominent (visible) on your Spyder, the production units will look much better. I think this is the 1st product I've come up with that you're going to be able to see without pulling Tupperware or crawling underneath your Spyder! :thumbup:




George, you our posted very good information about you and the bike to help others. I am still trying to gleeman some objective numbers to see how the adjuster is performing. Example:
preload. can you cite your weight and number of turns it took to set proper sag. If about 4 to 5 people would do this, a table could be made so others could pick the right setting first time. The key to building the table is collecting the right data that corresponds to the right number of turns it took to set the sag for your weight. Do you know how to check the front sag for the spyder?

keep posting on your observer actions.

jerry

I think I understand where you're coming from. I suppose it would be nice to have everything calculated out. But you may be over-thinking this as it really isn't all that complicated.

Nautibrit has a point when he says; '... seat of the pants judgments are more meaningful', in that everyone's idea of 'Just Right' is different. Even with identical loading some will like it stiffer and some will like it softer (The Goldilocks principal comes to mind).

The key is that these are ADJUSTABLE. Most of my testers have found an initial 'Sweet Spot' only to change their mind and make further adjustments as they get more accustomed to the ride. The adjust-ability not only allows you to fine tune the ride. But it also allows you to find settings that work 1 up, 2 up, trailer added, etc. Making adjustments is pretty quick and not technical at all.

I specifically ask my Test Pilots to put these through their paces as aggressively as is safe and not going to do any damage to their Spyder.

Particular attention has been given to rough pavement surfaces (potholes, etc.) speed bumps and abrupt, steep approach driveways. Things that are typically giving Spyder riders trouble or body strikes.

So far the feedback has been very positive from all the Test Pilots in all respects. The 1st Production run has been started and I hope to have these available about the middle of February.

[Bob Denman]

Question(s): Have you determined a price yet?
And; can I sign up now for the first production set? :D

[BajaRon]

Jerry, you sound like a technical kind of guy and that's great! I decided to answer this 2nd part of your question separately as it's a bit more in-depth. I am hoping that I understand your question correctly. If not please feel free to clarify.



Top end.
Even though you set the sag right, it doesn't mean you are finished. You need to know how the spring is literally holding up over the entire riding envelope. The key here is to not bottom out at the top end. This is the part wher is has traditionally done subjectively, like you did in your post. There is a another way to do this if you are willing to try. Pm me and I can walk you through it.

Someone can correctly me if I am wrong but I do not believe that 'Bottoming Out' the suspension is a problem with the stock configuration as usually the front of the Spyder strikes the ground, (driveway, speed bump, etc.) before the suspension is completely used up. That is why SpyderPop's does such a great deal of business with his Bump Skid product (which I highly recommend by-the-way). But I digress.

So with these Adjusters installed there is even less likelihood of using up all the available suspension travel. However, there is the possibility of 'Coil Bind'. And this may be your question. We have tested for this and even with the Adjusters set to the stiffest setting there is still space between the coils when the limit bumper hits.

There is one more possibility that I can think of that you may be referring to. That is, with the additional 'Lift' created by the Adjusters, the dampening may not be able to control the upward movement and the shock may then 'Top Out'. This is easily felt by the rider if it occurs and we have not had any instance of this. The front of the Spyder is fairly heavy and dampening seems to be more than adequate.

So far every tester has been satisfied with 4 turns or less on the adjusters. This is exactly 1/2 of the potential distance of 8 turns. So I feel confident that everyone will be able to find their own personal 'Sweet Spot'.

Thanks for the questions.

[spacetiger]

Bajaron,

thanks for for the return. I think you would want to do what Harley Davidson did with their new rear suspension on the XL 1200 low. They added a remote rear shock preload adjuster. To help the new buyer dial in what he needs, the owners manual offers a simple table to help the rider dial in the rear preload adjustor. I think it wouldn't be hard to build a table based on all the data you would be getting from your testers. I would be happy to do this for you so you can give it back to your customers.

i think our riding owners are not yet sophisticated enough to accurately know individually how our suspension is working or works best. I don't say this to insult anyone, but observe there are lots of opinions stated, but not much objective data, pics, etc. I don't know if our riding population realize no single setting works for all riders. That's why a chart can help them.

On on the top end, it is not something that is discussed in the riding world as an objective thing that riders can relate to, that's why I posted how to dial in your front suspension. It would help people who buy your product.

i tried to go the route of adding another preload spacer to set up my front suspension but found an additional 0.8" spacer was not enough to get the oem suspension to work at the lower (sag) and top front end. That included using all the extra oem preload available on my 2012 RTS for just me at 208 lbs. I could set the sag but found I still bottomed out, so I knew the top end was still a problem. Don't get me wrong, I felt the improvement but i i don't like bottoming out on any of the bikes I ride. So I went the route of replacing the springs.

i still think your product can work for many riders and wish you well, just tring to help and try and get our riding population more knowledgable. A wiser population will demand better stuff and you guys will deliver....

and yes, I am an engineer - in the space industry for over 30 yrs so data is everything, opinions not so much.

Jerry

[PMK]

Cool discussion.

PK

[robmorg]

I think I understand where you're coming from. I suppose it would be nice to have everything calculated out. But you may be over-thinking this as it really isn't all that complicated.

Nautibrit has a point when he says; '... seat of the pants judgments are more meaningful', in that everyone's idea of 'Just Right' is different. Even with identical loading some will like it stiffer and some will like it softer (The Goldilocks principal comes to mind).

The key is that these are ADJUSTABLE. Most of my testers have found an initial 'Sweet Spot' only to change their mind and make further adjustments as they get more accustomed to the ride. The adjust-ability not only allows you to fine tune the ride. But it also allows you to find settings that work 1 up, 2 up, trailer added, etc. Making adjustments is pretty quick and not technical at all. Ron,

I understand what you are saying here. But I also agree with what Jerry is suggesting. For what it's worth, I think the finished product should come with some simple instructions for a "starting point" adjustment that takes into consideration the weight of the driver and also to what extent a different adjustment may be desired with the addition of a passenger (though many will not bother changing the preload adjustment for solo vs. duel riding). Most riders (myself included) will not have enough knowledge about suspension systems to understand how to make the initial adjustment. Spyder owners come in all "sizes" ranging from about 150 lbs. to 350 lbs. in weight. Some like a slow smooth ride, while others like to ride aggressively. IMHO, it would be EXTREMELY helpful to supply some sort of chart that suggests a starting point for the initial adjustment based on rider weight, if nothing else. Then it can be suggested that the rider may want to vary the adjustment up to [so many] turns one way or the other to fine tune the preload to their own tastes and riding style.

Though many here are knowledgeable in this area, preloading shocks is not something with which most folks have an adequate understanding. I remember years ago I had a bike with adjustable shocks. I just left them "one notch up from center" because I didn't know what else to do with them. I know I'm going to be ordering a set of these from you because I'm a big guy and my shocks need some help. I know that they are "too mushy" as is. But I am likely one of many who probably won't know what to do with the adjustors without some initial guidance.