BajaRon shock adjuster update, windy ride Test.

[StanProff]

Here in upper East Tenn. today the temperature was a balmy 70 + !!!! Can't believe how warm it got today. Along with this though we had winds of 25 to 30 mph gust almost all day. What better time to give the shock adjusters another workout and road test. I started out on some back roads and then realized that, to get a better feel of windy handling, I needed to get out on the open road where the wind would be more prone to bounce me around. I headed to Bristol Tn on a state route 4-lane and then looped back through the Virginia side of Bristol and hit interstate 81 south back towards the Greeneville TN. direction. Believe me, the wind was making everything on the highway bounce around. I never felt threatened by the cross winds, the Spyder handled surprisingly well. Did the wind bounce me around ? Of course it did , along with the cars, trucks and anything else on the interstate but the Spyder was sure footed and went were I pointed it. I am sure the adjusters, with the pre-load that I have on the Springs, helped overcome some of the wind blast and frankly I was very confident with the handling. One thing is for sure, I am glad I was on three instead of two wheels. I watched two wheelers getting blasted on the Interstate. I know, from having a half dozen two wheelers in the garage, that today was not a comfortable day to be on two. Point being, I was enjoying the Spyder ride, and if time had allowed I would have kept going. :thumbup:
Stan

[spacetiger]

Stan,

Where do the rubber bumpers go after a ride?

Jerry

[Chupaca]

looking like the testing in nearing completion..good to know they are wirking out well...:2thumbs: next step..??

[Bob Denman]

Thanks, Stan! :thumbup:
Waiting to see if this'll be a Christmas present, or an Easter present... :D
(Or perhaps a Valentine's Day present for the Missus!) :yikes:

[bscrive]

Thanks, Stan! :thumbup:
Waiting to see if this'll be a Christmas present, or an Easter present... :D
(Or perhaps a Valentine's Day present for the Missus!) :yikes:

Valentine's day present???

Bob, you will have to contact Ron to get the proper proceedure on how to remove them from your butt if you give these as a Valentine's present. :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: You don't think that she'd like them? :shocked:
I'd stress the safety issue; what could be wrong with wanting her to live longer? :D

Oh; removal isn't a problem! :thumbup: over the years; there have been more than SEVERAL large purchases that needed extrication! :yikes:

[PMK]

Stan, interesting comments about added preload in regards to windy conditions.

Not denying what you say, but typically, side loads such as wind, and stabilizing those loads would be better done via a swaybar change or damping change.

Here's why. Using a childs teeter totter as an example, your machine is running partially settled into the suspension stroke. This equates to the teeter totter with two kids equal weight and balanced. If one child were handed a cement block, or the block were simply placed on teeter totter beam near an end, the results would be instant, with the heading towards ground on the loaded side.

Adding a swaybar of sorts to the teeter totter would be similar to having a long rubber bungee cord connected under each kids butt. This would tend to keep the teeter totter level.

Adding a rusted hinge to the teeter totter would simulate damping. As the cement block is loaded onto the teeter totter at one end, the reuslts of velocity or speed vs time would be different than without the rusty hinge.

Slightly firmer damping could add roll stiffness and with clicker shocks could be a tunable item for a windy day.

Consider, in simple terms, each child as the springs rate and preload combined or simply net force.

For simple preload to benefit a windy, the initial springs rates and or preload would need to be grossly wrong for the load.

All the best with continued testing.

PK

[Bob Denman]

PK,
I like the way that you explain things; it even makes sense to MY simple mind! :thumbup:
An Anti-SwayBar has the effect of adding "roll resistance", to one side of a vehicle, as it is needed. It Adds in some of the Spring's capacity from the other side of the vehicle... (I think!)
If your spring setup is pretty close, and the damping of the shocks is reasonable; an ability to fine-tune for preload might just be what is needed...
This will give you more resistance to bottoming; something that the Bar won't... (I think!)

Mind you; I know as much about suspensions, as Hogs do about the Sabbath. Please feel free to set me straight!nojoke

[PW2013STL]

(Or perhaps a Valentine's Day present for the Missus!) :yikes:[/QUOTE]

Bob,

This will only work if you have Ron add a diamond to each adjuster

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: Oh Ron... :thumbup:

Something in the half-carat range (Each); colorless, and no visible inclusions... :D

[BajaRon]

As is to be expected, this thread is running off the rails. With subjects ranging from the extraction of certain orifice obstructions to precious stones, it can all get pretty confusing.

I should have the Phase II adjuster prototype ready on Friday.

As discussed, the sway bar is an energy/force transfer device. It takes 'weight' from the heavy side and transfers it to the light side.

Though a bit simplistic, the shock springs primary purpose is to hold the Spyder up. The sway bar's job is to keep the Spyder level (left to right). Working together these 2 components can make for both a comfortable and very controlled ride.

The main purpose of an adjustable spring is not so much to take over the job of the sway bar, though a properly adjusted spring rate will help the sway bar do a better job. The problem we are addressing with the adjusters is the 1 size fits all spring rate of the 2013/14 (and maybe 15) Spyder. BRP believes that a single spring pre-load setting will perform adequately with a single 120 lb. rider, nothing in storage, and also work well with 2, 200 lb. riders with maxed out baggage. We are looking at a 300 + difference in weight between these 2 scenarios.

The rear is adjustable, but the front's are not. I am pretty sure riders will find that being able to adjust the front springs will be very beneficial. Not only in maintaining a reasonable ride height to prevent bottoming out, but to control additional weight when necessary.

[PMK]

PK,
I like the way that you explain things; it even makes sense to MY simple mind! :thumbup:

As a day job teaching technical topics, simple is sometimes easier for all involved. Rest assured, I am not good at reading about insurance stuff.


An Anti-SwayBar has the effect of adding "roll resistance", to one side of a vehicle, as it is needed.

Roll resistance from the bar is coupled to both left and right sides of the suspension arms. In simple terms, if the shock springs were removed the vehicle not fall side to side if supported on the chassis front to rear centerline. Sway bars are a torsion or twisting spring. As one wheel is compressed in a corner, the opposite wheel is trying to extend. The sway bar couples the two sides, trying to make both compress. Depending on the bars stiffness determines how effective the bar is at controlling directional change body roll.


It Adds in some of the Spring's capacity from the other side of the vehicle...

In a cornering situation, not really. The bar is simply linking the left and right suspension. If one side is compressed, the bar makes efforts to compress the opposite side, thus working to keep the chassis lean angle low or allow the vehicle to corner with a more flat profile(?) relative to the ground.

The bar will add spring rate in situation where the road is smooth and even. Then, a single positive bump, such as a road dot, or raised manhole cover compresses one wheel. The opposite suspension will attempt to compress. The torsion spring effect of the bar will in this situation add stiffness to the suspension that encountered the bump.


(I think!) If your spring setup is pretty close, and the damping of the shocks is reasonable; an ability to fine-tune for preload might just be what is needed...
This will give you more resistance to bottoming; something that the Bar won't... (I think!)

Almost reading to take the 5th on that statement. Like girls, it's complicated. In simple terms, if the springs rates were close, and the damping was close in regards to the springs rate, vehicle and riding style, preload will simply set ride height or ground clearance. Preload is not a true means to overcome soft springs. It will tend to "feel" better, but from a safety standpoint, the machine is setup too soft and will tend to wallow when cornering. In a situation where springs are too firm, the machine can tend to hop or slide and will require the tires to not only grip but act as undamped suspension.

Like girls, it gets really complicated.


Mind you; I know as much about suspensions, as Hogs do about the Sabbath. Please feel free to set me straight!nojoke

To save our friends, I don't want to start religious comparisons of suspension or anything to something someone believes in. Treating this portion of the reply like safe sex...taking no chances...did I mention the suspension stuff is like girls, it's complicated.

PK

[PMK]

As is to be expected, this thread is running off the rails. With subjects ranging from the extraction of certain orifice obstructions to precious stones, it can all get pretty confusing.

I should have the Phase II adjuster prototype ready on Friday.

As discussed, the sway bar is an energy/force transfer device. It takes 'weight' from the heavy side and transfers it to the light side.

Though a bit simplistic, the shock springs primary purpose is to hold the Spyder up. The sway bar's job is to keep the Spyder level (left to right). Working together these 2 components can make for both a comfortable and very controlled ride.

The main purpose of an adjustable spring is not so much to take over the job of the sway bar, though a properly adjusted spring rate will help the sway bar do a better job. The problem we are addressing with the adjusters is the 1 size fits all spring rate of the 2013/14 (and maybe 15) Spyder. BRP believes that a single spring pre-load setting will perform adequately with a single 120 lb. rider, nothing in storage, and also work well with 2, 200 lb. riders with maxed out baggage. We are looking at a 300 + difference in weight between these 2 scenarios.

The rear is adjustable, but the front's are not. I am pretty sure riders will find that being able to adjust the front springs will be very beneficial. Not only in maintaining a reasonable ride height to prevent bottoming out, but to control additional weight when necessary.

Yes, agree.

PK

[Bob Denman]

PK,
Well; I sure like Girls... :thumbup:
I don't understand them either; but I do like them! :D

[PMK]

PK,
Well; I sure like Girls... :thumbup:
I don't understand them either; but I do like them! :D

OK Mr Easily Distracted

PK

[PMK]

For those that people that want to understand more, Motorcyclist magazine has started a 4 part series on motorcycle suspension beginning with the January 2015 issue. This focused on street machines and not dirt bikes.

The first segment deals with springs, spring rates, preload and setting sag.

I rejuvenated this topic not only to allow people to learn more but also to see if maybe it is feasible to come up with a simple proper spring chart. Proper meaning determining what is proper ride height so the front suspension arms lay at the proper angles in elation to the ground, then from there derive proper spring rates for various rider weights.

The adjustable collars will be huge in obtaining a great setup for safety and good handling.

My personal opinion for our machine, riding two up, with riders at 220 with gear on the front and 170 with gear on the back, minimal "stuff" in the rear compartments say 10 lbs and very minimal say 5 lbs in the frunk, plus the catalytic converter has been removed though the Corbin seat added weight should balance this out. Unfortunately, the Corbin has raised the CG.

Our front springs work, but feel too soft. Overall the machine handles well, some corners though, when weight shifts to the outside front wheel in tighter corners or more aggressive corners, the chassis pivots excessively. The feel is similar to tucking the front wheel, and bump steer adds to the problem. Again very ridable, but could be much better.

Obviously changing spring rates will have an effect on rebound damping. I suspect the change would be minimal and not a concern for normal riding.

PK

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for that assessment. :thumbup:
There's no doubt that BRP can't set up a suspension for each individual; but they can build a machine for everybody! :2thumbs:
You just have to, "Season them"; to your own liking! :D

[spacetiger]

For those that people that want to understand more, Motorcyclist magazine has started a 4 part series on motorcycle suspension beginning with the January 2015 issue. This focused on street machines and not dirt bikes.

The first segment deals with springs, spring rates, preload and setting sag.

I rejuvenated this topic not only to allow people to learn more but also to see if maybe it is feasible to come up with a simple proper spring chart. Proper meaning determining what is proper ride height so the front suspension arms lay at the proper angles in elation to the ground, then from there derive proper spring rates for various rider weights.

The adjustable collars will be huge in obtaining a great setup for safety and good handling.

My personal opinion for our machine, riding two up, with riders at 220 with gear on the front and 170 with gear on the back, minimal "stuff" in the rear compartments say 10 lbs and very minimal say 5 lbs in the frunk, plus the catalytic converter has been removed though the Corbin seat added weight should balance this out. Unfortunately, the Corbin has raised the CG.

Our front springs work, but feel too soft. Overall the machine handles well, some corners though, when weight shifts to the outside front wheel in tighter corners or more aggressive corners, the chassis pivots excessively. The feel is similar to tucking the front wheel, and bump steer adds to the problem. Again very ridable, but could be much better.

Obviously changing spring rates will have an effect on rebound damping. I suspect the change would be minimal and not a concern for normal riding.

PK

PK,

Start a new thread; your posting would have been the right text but you could copy and post. It can be the definitive posting to guide suspension set up.

There is one other rider out there that has gone the same route I did for the front shocks (Eibach spring swap). He has a different rate and is running preload setting than me. He and his wife are very happy as am I.

I am about to do the rear and would be happy to add this to the thread.

Jerry

[Bob Denman]

I should have the Phase II adjuster prototype ready on Friday.

Anything to report??? :dontknow: ;)

[BajaRon]

Anything to report??? :dontknow: ;)

It's a tough time of year to get anything produced quickly. I visited my machinist today and he's just about got the Phase 2 prototype ready to go. I have to get with Stanley and see if we can install these on Monday. If they work well I will be looking for 1 or 2 other Test Pilots for this phase of the project.

[Bob Denman]

:yes: Oh wait... :shocked:
You don't need a tester, whose bike is going to be sitting in the garage for the next three Months... :gaah:
Thanks for the update; we know that you're paddling as fast as you can! :thumbup:

[BajaRon]

:yes: Oh wait... :shocked:
You don't need a tester, whose bike is going to be sitting in the garage for the next three Months... :gaah:
Thanks for the update; we know that you're paddling as fast as you can! :thumbup:

We ARE looking for a cold weather test pilot! :joke:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VVI9MfExkFk/UbGLqgR2WKI/AAAAAAAAABo/JSdq3lMPK7k/s0-d/the%2Bway%2Bstupid%2Bpeople%2Bmake%2Bme%2Bfeel.png

[Bob Denman]

Heeeeere's Johnny! :roflblack: