NHTSA investigation update

[Magdave]

Here is a NHTSA PDF dated 10/16 asking BRP to provide EVERTHING ever reported about the heat and fuel smell issues. Sounds like they have an idea what they want to see it is very detailed and specific. It is 14 pages long so be prepared to do a little reading. It seems they are concentrating on the EVAP overflow, excess heat (boiling gas) and MC and asked if pre 2014 owners will get the 2014 body panels (RT's) plus a whole lot more. They want to know what BRP knew about any of this and when they knew it. BRP must reply by Dec 5 and they mean business in closing they said

"BRP's failure to respond promptly and fully to this letter could subject BRP to civil penalties
pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 30165 or lead to an action for injunctive relief pursuant to 49 U.S.C. §
30163. (Other remedies and sanctions are available as well.) The Vehicle Safety Act, as
amended, 49 U.S.C. § 30165(a), provides for civil penalties of up to $7,000 per day, with a
maximum of $17,350,000 for a related series of violations, for failing or refusing to perform an

act required under 49 U.S.C. § 30166. See 49 CFR 578.6 (as amended by 77 Fed. Reg. 70710



(November 27, 2012)). This includes failing to respond completely to ODI information requests.
If BRP cannot respond to any specific request or subpart(s) thereof, please state the reason why it
is unable to do so. If on the basis of attorney-client, attorney work product, or other privilege,
BRP does not submit one or more requested documents or items of information in response to
this information request, BRP must provide a privilege log identifying each document or item
withheld, and stating the date, subject or title, the name and position of the person(s) from, and
the person(s) to whom it was sent, and the name and position of any other recipient (to include
all carbon copies or blind carbon copies), the nature of that information or material, and the basis
for the claim of privilege and why that privilege applies.



http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM464683/INIM-PE14025-60435.pdf

[jaherbst]

How about that. Can not wait to see what happens.

Jack

[SNOOPY]

Well one thing about BRP...they don't do anything fast...guessing they're gonna be paying fines...be prepared to pay more for your next Spyder. Personally, I won't be buying another...

[JkRbbt]

If BRP didn't know, their R&D is severely lacking. If they did know... well, you know! :sour: Profit at all cost, I guess! We shall see.

[Magdave]

Here is a taste of the letter concerning the RT's

13. For all MY 2010 through 2015 Spyder RT models (including all trim variants), fully describe
all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations,
inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were
noted, for any reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the
tank; vapor emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior
surface of the motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each
"area," the maximum temperature(s) noted.
·14. Fully describe all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations,
investigations, inquiries and/or evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature
readings were noted that support BRP' s marketing claim of "improved heat management"
found at http:!/can-am.brp.corn/spyder/shopping-tools/why-choose-can-am-spyder/the-new-
2014-spyder-rt.html for the MY2014 Spyder RT models. Provide all documents
comparing/contrasting the temperature readings BRP relied upon when making that claim.
15. For all MY 2008 through 2015 Spyder "sport" models, fully describe all assessments,
analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations, inquiries and/or
evaluations (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were noted, for any
reason, for any of the following areas: fuel tank exterior surface(s); fuel in the tank; vapor
emissions canister exterior surface; brake master cylinder; and/or any exterior surface of the
motorcycle body. Provide a spreadsheet listing each action and, then, for each "area," the
maximum temperature(s) noted.)

[Art Mann]

Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.

[jcthorne]

Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.

It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....

[jcthorne]

Sounds to me like they are about to force a recall on BRP. I am surprised that BRP hasn't done so voluntarily considering the number of people who have reported fuel problems and the potential liability.


I think the recall is a forgone conclusion. What is going to be argued is how much will be required.

[Magdave]

I see NHTSA's site is down again , been pretty busy there lately, so here is a link for anyone that wants to read the PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7PcPEA_MDsNalZiUWhfNHBib1k/view?usp=sharing

[Magdave]

Reading between the lines, its obvious there have been some prior correspondence on the subjects. Of interest is that BRP has reported to NHTSA that other makes and models of motorcycles emit fuel vapors when parked rather than storing them in the canister. NHTSA in essence says, really? who? We need to talk to them as well. Oh, and we want to see those CARB test reports where this vapor belching system supposedly passed emissions testing.... You can bet the EPA and CARB are watching this closely as well.

It will drag out a while. Also what's up with the 2015 RT body panels, is there something new on the 2015 RT that we missed? Or is NHTSA a year off on its request. Personally I would be very happy if BRP was required to refit all 2014 body panels and the associated heat management parts to my 2013....Would go a long way to solve the problem. Still have exhaust routing problems but....

I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with a reversing fan under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. :dontknow: I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.

[Jeriatric]

Sounds like the band aid has FINALLY fallen off.

Thanks for the update.

[Jeriatric]

I read a member here is a test mule for BRP on a 2013 with
● a reversing fan ● under 6mph. That may help with the black hole heat at stop but does nothing for the rest of the issues with the EVAP system and boiling gas. I am not sure maybe a 2014 owner can tell us if the 2014 front triangles are engine vents or not. You know the ones above the radiator holes. :dontknow: I am thinking NHTSA simply means the 2014/15 body panels on the RT.

Months ago I communicated with BRP about the possibility of them offering this. At our expense/or not. Need I say....they never responded?

[M109Dreamer]

Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.

I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

[Magdave]

Well I as well as many other RT owners will be standing by to hear of the doc's submitted by BRP.

I think this could of gone 2 ways. BRP could of known of the heat issues from customers and never did there own R&D to support or deny the claims. Or know of the issue and wait for the NHTSB to come up with their evaluation hoping for a lesser of the 2 evils. But it might be to late for BRP? Would be curious to see the actual documents provided by BRP. I would be betting that they will not be nearly a bad as myself or others have claimed about the heat issue, boiling gas, or fuel smells.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint:thumbup:

[M109Dreamer]

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint[emoji106]
I hope too. We havent had issues with the gas dripping but the heat has literally left burns on the inside of my wifes legs. And the fumes have been there from day one. Like everyone else, we were told "they all are like that". Well a few more months and maybe we will find out what all comes out in this.

Ours is a 11 RTS

[Raknid]

I still get the fuel smells after a long ride or hot day. Is there still a need for more customer information? Sounds like investigation is underway..

[SpyderAnn01]

Wouldn't it suck to be an employee at BRP working on these responses?

[PMK]

Oh Boy...

Hope this all works out for Owners, BRP and the Gov't.

Something needed to be done.

All the best to those affected or involved.

PK

[mastertek2000]

This is great news they have to step up now what really get me is all the dealers from what i read when you ask them if this is a common problem they all say the same thing i never heard of this before yup OK lets hope justice will be served i am about ready to trade my 2013 because of the fuel smell been to the dealer 2 times on more time then i will file a lemon law this surelly will help anyone that wants file a lemon law on their bike

[spyder3]

Seems like BRP rolled the dice and it's coming up snake eyes. Between the fires and gas fumes/heat, this isn't something that NHSTA could look the other way or sweep under the carpet. By the tone of the response, it appears BRP hasn't been very responsive to them either. Bottom line is, I hope everyone who needs a remedy gets one and that BRP's damage isn't to the point where the spyder would be in jeopardy (i highly doubt that). One would have to hope they will learn a lesson here and listen to all us beta testers.nojoke

[Jeriatric]

Crickets.....


After having read through the information request. One thought came to mind. This is far from over. It's just getting started. Sad thing is....it DID NOT have to come to this. 'Choices' do have consequences.

[Bob Denman]

Dave,
Thanks for the update! :thumbup:
There's going to be repercussions to all of this... :shocked:
I guess that we'll have to wait and see where the chips fall... :bbq::bbq::bbq:

[Jeriatric]

When I think of all the 'Good Folks' over the years who have been attacked for complaining about everything that is now under investigation. In truth. It makes me sick.

[Magdave]

I, for one < am hoping this is a case of patience (and being stubborn) will be a virtue in this case. Did you notice the recall compliance numbers? ~75% have had it done I wonder about the other 25% and how many potential melted MC and Evap canisters are ready to pop?:yikes: That is the scariest part. Maybe some were trade ins :dontknow:

[finless]

Bottom line I can recreate the fuel smell issue easily!
1) Have about 1/3 of your gas tank full.
2) Ride in stop and go traffic in 90F or above ambient temps for about 30 minutes.

Every time I have this combination the gas stink even while on the thing is pretty bad and there have been days I almost had to get off the thing as it was making me nauseous.

However, I have been doing what others suggested. Fill up the tank before going home.
YES when I pop the cap off the gas is boiling so much you can hear it just standing next to it.
But filling it up does calm down the issue so I can park in the garage without my wife freaking out but I have to ride it a few miles to let the evap can clear.
Still some gas smell but certainly not as bad as had I not filled it up.

As far as heat, either I am tolerant or not having an issue.
Yes with my NVB pegs the blow hole will burn you so it has to be blocked off to use those.
But on the stock pegs, I only have a little discomfort and can feel the heat but not enough to make me stop riding it.

But, this is good news for us users. I will take any fix that solves the stink and the fumes which is a fire danger in my opinion. I have been grounding myself to the frame before opening the gas cap and other precautions to not ignite the fumes!

Lets all hope for a quick resolution to this :thumbup:

Bob

[DJFaninTN]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/popcorn_seinfeld.gif

[Jeriatric]

Doubt there will be any foot dragging or failure to respond to these folks.

[ekfraz]

I don't think BRP will be shaking in there boots yet, hopefully we will get some help now.

[cuznjohn]

i didn't read the whole paper but did they give BRP a time limit to respond

[Jeriatric]

First week of Dec. 2014

[2RTsGV]

I, for one < am hoping this is a case of patience (and being stubborn) will be a virtue in this case. Did you notice the recall compliance numbers? ~75% have had it done I wonder about the other 25% and how many potential melted MC and Evap canisters are ready to pop?:yikes: That is the scariest part. Maybe some were trade ins :dontknow:

Well I for one still have my 2013 RT (bought new Mar 1, 14) - but have NEVER received a recall notice.

Until today (since reading the NHTSA letter) I have been oblivious to the amount of recalls there have been & I must to admit to being somewhat shocked!

I am left wondering if any of the recalls were applied automatically by the service dept. when the bike was in for its 4000 mile oil change. All of my riding since having the bike have been approx. 200 mile round trips or less (typically only local within state short trips), during the summer the tank was hot when refueling and the panels / under seat & hot air near foot peg were getting really hot though luckily no gas smell!

Now that the cooler temps are here I have noticed a drop in heat when refueling and riding.

Actually my wife and I are planning riding our Spyders (hers is the 2012 RT LTD) to Eureka Springs Arkansas (pig trail) tomorrow and back Sunday from KC.

Crossing my fingers my 2013 RT is not one that is ready to POP as you say!
(but I will be keeping a close watch on it when refueling)

[Magdave]

Well I for one still have my 2013 RT (bought new Mar 1, 14) - but have NEVER received a recall notice.

Until today (since reading the NHTSA letter) I have been oblivious to the amount of recalls there have been & I must to admit to being somewhat shocked!

I am left wondering if any of the recalls were applied automatically by the service dept. when the bike was in for its 4000 mile oil change. All of my riding since having the bike have been approx. 200 mile round trips or less (typically only local within state short trips), during the summer the tank was hot when refueling and the panels / under seat & hot air near foot peg were getting really hot though luckily no gas smell!

Now that the cooler temps are here I have noticed a drop in heat when refueling and riding.

Actually my wife and I are planning riding our Spyders (hers is the 2012 RT LTD) to Eureka Springs Arkansas (pig trail) tomorrow and back Sunday from KC.

Crossing my fingers my 2013 RT is not one that is ready to POP as you say!
(but I will be keeping a close watch on it when refueling)

Short answer is some do some don't it depends on the quality of the dealer.:dontknow:

[bronzeflex42]

All this talk of fires and getting ready to pop makes you worry. I hope my 2012 LTD is in good shape. I don't want to ride in fear, and spending the kind of money for these machines, you shouldn't have to ride in fear. I hope BRP comes up with something good to relieve the owners and we can get back to enjoying these wonderful bikes and not worry, but just ride and have fun.:yes:

[2RTsGV]

All this talk of fires and getting ready to pop makes you worry. I hope my 2012 LTD is in good shape. I don't want to ride in fear, and spending the kind of money for these machines, you shouldn't have to ride in fear. I hope BRP comes up with something good to relieve the owners and we can get back to enjoying these wonderful bikes and not worry, but just ride and have fun.:yes:


I couldn't agree more with you. Nothing worse than having a (25K+) machine sitting in the garage and being too worried to ride it any distance for fear it will burst into flames in some out of the way location.

I am left wondering if maybe they need to redesign & re-route the exhaust system for the pre 2014 models - afterall it does seem to be cause of the heat issues.

[Magdave]

I couldn't agree more with you. Nothing worse than having a (25K+) machine sitting in the garage and being too worried to ride it any distance for fear it will burst into flames in some out of the way location.

I am left wondering if maybe they need to redesign & re-route the exhaust system for the pre 2014 models - afterall it does seem to be cause of the heat issues.
Ceramic coated headers and proper gas tank and CAT insulation would help :thumbup:

[MouthPiece]

Did someone say ebola?

Chris

[ekfraz]

SPYDER BYTE !!!!!!!!!

[jaherbst]

I hope too. We havent had issues with the gas dripping but the heat has literally left burns on the inside of my wifes legs. And the fumes have been there from day one. Like everyone else, we were told "they all are like that". Well a few more months and maybe we will find out what all comes out in this.

Ours is a 11 RTS

Now I think I understand your avatar. It's a mask for the gas fumes. Does it work??:D

Jack

[Dan_Ashley]

I hope this does not turn out like it did for the Corvair, or like it did for the Geo Tracker. Both were fine cars--for what they were-- and both are off the market now. You can't buy a Citroen in the U.S., and can't get a street legal Polaris (off-road) either.

I enjoy joy my Spyder. I hope it does not become only a memory.

[M109Dreamer]

Now I think I understand your avatar. It's a mask for the gas fumes. Does it work??:D

Jack
Lol, nope my boy said I look like the Avatar when I have the CPAP machine on.
Shane

[PrairieSpyder]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[flamingobabe]

http://can-am.brp.com/spyder/owners/safety/safety-recalls-vin-lookup.html

on facebook BRP guy posted this link ......follow this link to see if your Spyder is in a recall.....mine had no recalls.....really??? just curious if any spyder shows a recall

[Magdave]

http://can-am.brp.com/spyder/owners/safety/safety-recalls-vin-lookup.html

on facebook BRP guy posted this link ......follow this link to see if your Spyder is in a recall.....mine had no recalls.....really??? just curious if any spyder shows a recall

There have been no new recalls....yet :thumbup:

[DrewNJ]

Did someone say ebola?

Chris
No kidding...[emoji57]

[Dan McNally]

Well I for one still have my 2013 RT (bought new Mar 1, 14) - but have NEVER received a recall notice.

Until today (since reading the NHTSA letter) I have been oblivious to the amount of recalls there have been & I must to admit to being somewhat shocked!

I am left wondering if any of the recalls were applied automatically by the service dept. when the bike was in for its 4000 mile oil change. All of my riding since having the bike have been approx. 200 mile round trips or less (typically only local within state short trips), during the summer the tank was hot when refueling and the panels / under seat & hot air near foot peg were getting really hot though luckily no gas smell!

Now that the cooler temps are here I have noticed a drop in heat when refueling and riding.

Actually my wife and I are planning riding our Spyders (hers is the 2012 RT LTD) to Eureka Springs Arkansas (pig trail) tomorrow and back Sunday from KC.

Crossing my fingers my 2013 RT is not one that is ready to POP as you say!
(but I will be keeping a close watch on it when refueling)

You should not have been sent a recall letter.

U.S. Federal law prohibits a dealer from selling a recalled vehicle without first performing the recall work. S

Since the recall was released in September, 2013 and you did not buy your Spyder until March of 2014, it is most likely that the recall work had been completed before you bought it. It is very easy to tell . . . pop off the Tupperware on the right side and look at your master cylinder. If it is plain white plastic on top, the work was not done. If it is wrapped with insulation, it was done . . .

[TXSHOTGUN]

Bottom line I can recreate the fuel smell issue easily!
1) Have about 1/3 of your gas tank full.
2) Ride in stop and go traffic in 90F or above ambient temps for about 30 minutes.

Every time I have this combination the gas stink even while on the thing is pretty bad and there have been days I almost had to get off the thing as it was making me nauseous.

However, I have been doing what others suggested. Fill up the tank before going home.
YES when I pop the cap off the gas is boiling so much you can hear it just standing next to it.
But filling it up does calm down the issue so I can park in the garage without my wife freaking out but I have to ride it a few miles to let the evap can clear.
Still some gas smell but certainly not as bad as had I not filled it up.

As far as heat, either I am tolerant or not having an issue.
Yes with my NVB pegs the blow hole will burn you so it has to be blocked off to use those.
But on the stock pegs, I only have a little discomfort and can feel the heat but not enough to make me stop riding it.

But, this is good news for us users. I will take any fix that solves the stink and the fumes which is a fire danger in my opinion. I have been grounding myself to the frame before opening the gas cap and other precautions to not ignite the fumes!

Lets all hope for a quick resolution to this :thumbup:

Bob

Good Idea Bob about grounding to the frame before opening the gas lid, I hadn't done that but i will from now on. I am with you on the heat, i have ridden Harleys for yrs so that is not too much of a problem to me, but when my phone melts in the center console, its a tad bit too hot, IMHO!

[spacetiger]

Recall fix will be high if this makes it through the system... but can you imagine what the cost would be to BRP if there is/was a fire and fatality?

This company must not have a very good legal staff either.

[AZCowboy]

Recall fix will be high if this makes it through the system... but can you imagine what the cost would be to BRP if there is/was a fire and fatality?

This company must not have a very good legal staff either.

I have not seen the NHTSA investigation update (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?74232-NHTSA-investigation-update) were can I find it? I was giving the USDOT information on problems I have had on my 2012 RT Limited. I heard some people hadn't any problems, some had some problems, I think I got them all. In two years I had at least 15 problems some of them major ones in the past two years. RJ:spyder2:

[03hdjill]

I and several others have submitted temp readings(with pictures) To both BRP and Bob Young the NHTSA investigator. so they can run but they can't hide. There are plenty of measurements others here have posted too and you know NHTSA has been pouring over the posts. They even include a screen shot of one of the posts here in the PDF. I and others have also posted pictures of the gas dripping from the EVAP hose. This whole mess includes ALL Spyders too not just 2013's. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am guessing Jan or Feb will be the conclusion of the investigation. If you have fuel smells after a ride it is last chance to file a complaint:thumbup:

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

[DrewNJ]

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?

Why would you file a complaint if you don't have issues and only based on info your reading on an internet forum??

I've had no issues with my 12'. No issues with a real good friends 11' either. Actually, no complaints with my 12' at all. Its been one of the best, most reliable machines I've ever owned!

[robmorg]

I hope this does not turn out like it did for the Corvair, or like it did for the Geo Tracker. Both were fine cars--for what they were-- and both are off the market now. You can't buy a Citroen in the U.S., and can't get a street legal Polaris (off-road) either.

I enjoy joy my Spyder. I hope it does not become only a memory.Dan,

:agree: I'm with you, but I'm not too concerned. We are all blaming BRP for not being proactive enough on this issue. But where they WERE proactive was in not allowing the problem to propagate into future models. One way you can look at this is that 2014 was the "test year" for the RT. Problem solved. 2015, with the introduction of the F3, was the "test year" for permanently resolving the issue for the rest of the line. I'm fairly sure that what we will see beginning in 2016 is all new models being based on the F3 frame. I'm not saying that everything will look like the 2015 F3. However I'm guessing that the forward high gas tank, the exhaust system changes, and the 1330 style engine housed in an un-cramped engine compartment, will follow through to all future models. Some models (if perhaps just the RT) will probably be a meld of the design features of the 2014/2015 RT and the F3.

Bottom line, the problem was stopped and not going forward. They took steps to insure the integrity of the continuation of the Can-Am line. Now what they've got to do is concentrate on fixing the affected models already on the street.

[robmorg]

I thought just about everyone was having the gas smell problem. Are you thinking we all should be filing complaints regarding the smell?Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.

[snics]

http://can-am.brp.com/spyder/owners/safety/safety-recalls-vin-lookup.html

on facebook BRP guy posted this link ......follow this link to see if your Spyder is in a recall.....mine had no recalls.....really??? just curious if any spyder shows a recall

Only works for Spyder's sold in the US.....
Not very useful fir us Canadians.....

[flaggerphil]

This is great news they have to step up now what really get me is all the dealers from what i read when you ask them if this is a common problem they all say the same thing i never heard of this before yup OK lets hope justice will be served i am about ready to trade my 2013 because of the fuel smell been to the dealer 2 times on more time then i will file a lemon law this surelly will help anyone that wants file a lemon law on their bike

Punctuation is your friend.

[03hdjill]

Why would you file a complaint if you don't have issues and only based on info your reading on an internet forum??

I've had no issues with my 12'. No issues with a real good friends 11' either. Actually, no complaints with my 12' at all. Its been one of the best, most reliable machines I've ever owned!

Drew, That is not what I said. I have always had the gas smell with my ST Limited and my husband has always had it with his 2012 RTS. ( two different models, two different years) From talking with many other people, the smell seemed to be something most people have had. I was just asking if the other person felt that everyone should be filing complaints.

[flaggerphil]

All this talk of fires and getting ready to pop makes you worry. I hope my 2012 LTD is in good shape. I don't want to ride in fear, and spending the kind of money for these machines, you shouldn't have to ride in fear. I hope BRP comes up with something good to relieve the owners and we can get back to enjoying these wonderful bikes and not worry, but just ride and have fun.:yes:

I think it depends on the person and the bike they have. Some bikes have been bad...most (I think) have not (I'm excluding 2013's here). I have a 2011 RT-AC and have never had serious problems with it. I've never had heat problems with it. The relatively minor problems I've had have been fixed by my dealer and BRP very quickly and efficiently.

I'm not saying others haven't had problems and I don't bash those that do (though I've said a thing or two to people who have problems and complain instead of trying to get them fixed...but that's another thread). But I haven't and have been very happy with my RT.

I never ride in fear.

[03hdjill]

Jill,

That's not so, and this has been one of the most perplexing things about this issue. I have a 2013 RT that has exhibited the boiling gas on one, maybe two occasions in over 5000 miles. (None since wrapping the headers and shielding the fuel tank with reflective heat tape.) I have NEVER experienced canister overflow and leaking fuel. I HAVE experienced a LOT of excess heat coming up around the seat and have taken steps to curtail that problem. So there's no reason for me to file a complaint. Whatever improvements I get from the recall (or reimbursement for work already performed by my dealer) will be gravy for me - even if it is "much appreciated" gravy. I think perhaps that the diversity of owner experiences has been partially responsible for the seeming delay in action from BRP.
Rob,
My ST Limited did not have the heat around the seat until the recall work was completed. After that, the heat was extreme. I took photos of the readings and gave them to my dealer. I also had the boiling gas. BRP replaced the panels. I noticed right away after that, that the heat was not gone. It was moved from the seat area down to the lower panel near my calf. (and the heat has always been on the left side) I told my dealer, but nothing was ever done. They said that they would talk to BRP, but they could not come up with a remedy. I now just position my leg away from the bike.

Don't get me wrong, I love my bike. I have 13,000 miles on it and ride every chance I get. It is hot,though...and it smells like gas.

[Magdave]

Drew, That is not what I said. I have always had the gas smell with my ST Limited and my husband has always had it with his 2012 RTS. ( two different models, two different years) From talking with many other people, the smell seemed to be something most people have had. I was just asking if the other person felt that everyone should be filing complaints.

Short answer is if you have had fuel smell and were afraid to close the garage door after a ride YES. If you read the document BRP and their dealers have told NHTSA other bikes drip fuel and have fuel smells after a ride. NHTSA told them to tell them which ones. I have owned 5- 2 wheelers and none of them have done what my 2013 does. I never had gas dripping on my garage floor. They are asking BRP for their CARB documents any bike that spews fumes like the 2013 does after an hour ride could not possibly pass CARB regulations nor EPA for that matter. The purpose of the evap system is to PREVENT gas fumes from venting to atmosphere . If the amount of fumes overwhelms the canister the system is a failure. If the canister were cool a lot less (if not all) fumes would condense in it rather than vent through it. The canister location is bad (it gets HOT) as well as the size of it IMHO.

[DrewNJ]

...

[Dragonrider]

The financial hit to BRP may end the line - Honda has never recovered from the ATC fiasco.... They went from #1 to an also ran...

I'm really curious about the real numbers and impact. After the upgraded tubing, I never saw the problem on my 2010 again...

[jerpinoy]

Thanks for this information and I'll just wait for now, If boiling gas was taking care off most fumes would have gone away. Just my two cents.

[2RTsGV]

You should not have been sent a recall letter.

U.S. Federal law prohibits a dealer from selling a recalled vehicle without first performing the recall work. S

Since the recall was released in September, 2013 and you did not buy your Spyder until March of 2014, it is most likely that the recall work had been completed before you bought it. It is very easy to tell . . . pop off the Tupperware on the right side and look at your master cylinder. If it is plain white plastic on top, the work was not done. If it is wrapped with insulation, it was done . . .

Thank you, I will do as you suggest this weekend

[Magdave]

Thanks for this information and I'll just wait for now, If boiling gas was taking care off most fumes would have gone away. Just my two cents.

:agree: Boiling gas is the root of the problem.

[DrewNJ]

...

[Raknid]

It is not just the '13s. Our 2012 has to sit in driveway after long rides... or the garage and living area reek of gasoline.

[jcthorne]

They all can have the problem given the right circumstances. The 2013s are a bit worse due to the reconfiguration of the frame and suspension redesign. The 13 has even less air flow through the engine bay and fuel tank area than previous years. So more folks have experienced the required heat load to vaporize the fuel in the tank. Still there are LOTS of owners that swear they do not have the problem. And yet I can clearly smell the fumes when they pull up and park in a group of bike at owners events. Many folks CANNOT smell gasoline vapors in low concentration. The vapors are still there and just as flammable.

Its a design defect they ALL have. and they ALL need to be fixed by BRP. the evaporative emissions system does not meet federal requirements. Its as simple as that. The recall will require that it does. That $7000 a day fine mentioned in the letter for delay of the response is peanuts compared to what the EPA will levy if they are found to have falsified emissions certifications. And it will be a continuous and ongoing fine until they are all fixed or reacquired. ALL. BRP has a thin line to walk here and needs to appear cooperative or it could get very ugly in the current NHTSA climate.

[CruiseRT]

My 2013 has always had the heat problem. When I took it back for the band-aid recall they found the evap canister almost burned completely through. Since that I have always used a box fan to cool it down after a ride. If you look under it after a ride, even if you have just filled it up with cool gas you can still see the fuel vapors coming from the vent hose (big time), this is every time I ride. With what I know now about the Spyder I wish I had spent my money on something else, and if BRP does not come up with a real fix, not just patch something with tin foil, it will be the last Spyder I will own.

[hchays]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

[Craniac]

https://vimeo.com/110009720
I hooked a hose up to my evap canister vent after a ride. Then hit the vapor with an ignition source.
This is NOT safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jaherbst]

Agree 100%. The internet, and specifically these forums tend to really make it sound like the world is coming to an end. Remember, the majority of spyder riders have no idea what "spyderlovers" is and ride without giving it a second thought....the majority I'm sure are quite happy.

You must be saying then that ignorance is bliss!

Jack

[jaherbst]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

Unfortunately you are terribly mis informed on the whole matter. Retrofitting the 998 engine in the new frame because the 1330 was not ready is the main reason for the problems. Not enough space and air for the front exhaust that runs back and under the gas tank by 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Removing the CAT does nothing. I tried that also. Did not work. I was also a test source for BRP's latest campaign to solve this problem. This did not work either.

PS: If you knew how I ride you could hardly "paint" me as "putting" around. This is a real problem that has been more severe on the 2013 because of the above. I see you do not own an RT. You need to walk a mile in these moccasins before making the above remarks or get better informed. No disrespect meant here only seeking the truth.

Jack

[jcthorne]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....


Couple of wrong points here that bear clarification.

ALL RTs have the cat under the midsection of the frame, not in the muffler or in the engine bay. The cat does add heat to the fuel tank but its only a small part of the problem. Granted, it all adds up.

The speed at which you ride has NOTHING to do with fuel vapors belched from the machine after it is parked. Further, any speed above the 3500rpm clutch lockup speed has been deemed normal operating RPM. The NHTSA will not accept that the bike will belch fuel vapors under ANY normal operating circumstances. That includes sitting in city traffic and low speed operation. This is normal operating condition, NOT a fault of the owners.

If BRP designed a touring bike to ONLY operate above 5500 rpm and above speeds of 50 mph, that is a design defect for the purpose for which it was sold, not improper operation.

Please DO NOT continue to attempt to point fingers at owners for a poorly designed and improperly working bike. BRP is SOLELY responsible for its safe design and emissions certification. Do it right, or don't sell it. That's the law.

[hchays]

Unfortunately you are terribly mis informed on the whole matter. Retrofitting the 998 engine in the new frame because the 1330 was not ready is the main reason for the problems. Not enough space and air for the front exhaust that runs back and under the gas tank by 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Removing the CAT does nothing. I tried that also. Did not work. I was also a test source for BRP's latest campaign to solve this problem. This did not work either.

PS: If you knew how I ride you could hardly "paint" me as "putting" around. This is a real problem that has been more severe on the 2013 because of the above. I see you do not own an RT. You need to walk a mile in these moccasins before making the above remarks or get better informed. No disrespect meant here only seeking the truth.

Jack

First of all I CLEARLY said that the cat is not the only issue! Second I CLEAR (once again) did not say all RT riders putt around! However there are SEVERAL people that have beat ST/RS/GS riders down because they do not putt around. I in no way pointed a finger at anyone specifically, but what I posted is a valid point weather you want to believe it or not. I don't need to ride an RT to know there is an issue. My RS has a heat issue as well, but I know the RT's are worse. I also did not say the cat was the only issue, but it does contribute to the problem.

[hchays]

Couple of wrong points here that bear clarification.

ALL RTs have the cat under the midsection of the frame, not in the muffler or in the engine bay. The cat does add heat to the fuel tank but its only a small part of the problem. Granted, it all adds up.

The speed at which you ride has NOTHING to do with fuel vapors belched from the machine after it is parked. Further, any speed above the 3500rpm clutch lockup speed has been deemed normal operating RPM. The NHTSA will not accept that the bike will belch fuel vapors under ANY normal operating circumstances. That includes sitting in city traffic and low speed operation. This is normal operating condition, NOT a fault of the owners.

If BRP designed a touring bike to ONLY operate above 5500 rpm and above speeds of 50 mph, that is a design defect for the purpose for which it was sold, not improper operation.

Please DO NOT continue to attempt to point fingers at owners for a poorly designed and improperly working bike. BRP is SOLELY responsible for its safe design and emissions certification. Do it right, or don't sell it. That's the law.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.

[bmwlarry]

I have a 2011 and have always had the gas smell very bad after a days ride. On one occasion last year on our ride to Colorado, It was hot and when we stopped for gas - I did hear the sound of boiling gas when I removed the cap. I generally let the bike sit outside if the weather is OK to clear the gas smells. I have never overfilled the bike and hope at some point, BRP will come up with affix.

[Magdave]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.

Well I NEVER ride under 5k RPM and I have all the issues. To paint yourself as the know all be all does not impress me there are plenty of us that have as much experience and knowledge as you. There is very little blame on the riders if any. Even riding it wrong will not make it run hotter and spew more fumes. You can let it idle in the driveway and get fumes. This thread is about BRP's responsibility not who has the most knowledge. It is not a debate about what the riders do wrong. It is simply an update on what is in the works. Thanks for your input.

[Dragonrider]

Perhaps just removing the two side panels will alleviate the problem (AKA the F3) - If BRP told the dealers to do that, would that be acceptable? It would certainly get the heat out.... as in all things mechanical, there is no perfect end point for everyone. Someone will continue to be unhappy.

[ekfraz]

The gas fumes give me an upset stomach at times, the heat is the real problem. just a little vomit and burns on my inner thighs and gasoline boilimg, I am glad that gas does not burn.

[Deanna777]

My first spyder was a 2012RTS-SE5 I did not have any gas smell problems, traded it for a 2014RTS-SE6 Cognac, I like the new 1330 ACE Engine and all of the upgrades that BRP did.

Best of luck to the owners that have gas smell issues and ect. I am not going to say any more on this subject. Deanna

[vided]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....


Are you saying spyders cannot be ridden slow. That makes no sense to me. Jmho

[Magdave]

Are you saying spyders cannot be ridden slow. That makes no sense to me. Jmho
In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long. That is around the clutch lock up speed. The SM5 is a better parade vehicle. :thumbup: This has changed with the 2014 SE's since it has a hydraulic clutch vs centrifugal on pre 2014's.

[vided]

In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long. That is around the clutch lock up speed. The SM5 is a better parade vehicle. :thumbup: This has changed with the 2014 SE's since it has a hydraulic clutch vs centrifugal on pre 2014's.


That i understand.
it was the post about riding slow adds to the gas fume problem that didn't sound right.

[SpyderAnn01]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but I can't. There are several issues with the fuel smell (not all BRP's fault and certainly not the NHTSA's fault)! Yes, the Spyders do get hot under the plastic panels due to (my assumption) positioning of the cat converter. The 2013's tend to have more issues because that was the year BRP decided to take the cat out of the muffler and stuff it in the engine compartment. It is not just an RT issue (I know it's hard for a lot of RT owners to except that there is other models made). HOWEVER, here is where ALOT of Spyder riders (mostly RT riders) are at fault also. Posted in many threads are riders talking about shifting at low RPM's and riding at slow speeds (falling behind the other riders in groups) "because they want to enjoy the ride". There is no shame in wanting to enjoy the ride, I think we all do. But, It has been clearly stated by BRP and dealer service departments that it is recommended to shift at 5,000-5,500 RPM in order for the charcoal canister and evap system to work properly. If you are putting around (as many have stated they like to do) then your going to have issues with the system no matter what is done to solve the heat issue. So people can point the finger at BRP (and they certainly have some blame in this), but if your putting around on your Spyder it's time to start pointing the finger at yourself as well....

I have never been accused of "putting around" and I always shifted my 2013 at high RPM and my Spyder went up in flames. If you point your finger at me I just might break it off.

[wcricks]

If the letter from NHTSA to BRP was sent to me I would be nervous. I is going to cost a fortune just to provide the documents they requested. Hopefully, BRP will recall the units with heat issues and fix. If they stonewall lets hope the NHTSA starts issuing daily fines.

Anyone who owns a vehicle with these problems should file a report if they have not done so.




Here is a NHTSA PDF dated 10/16 asking BRP to provide EVERTHING ever reported about the heat and fuel smell issues. Sounds like they have an idea what they want to see it is very detailed and specific. It is 14 pages long so be prepared to do a little reading. It seems they are concentrating on the EVAP overflow, excess heat (boiling gas) and MC and asked if pre 2014 owners will get the 2014 body panels (RT's) plus a whole lot more. They want to know what BRP knew about any of this and when they knew it. BRP must reply by Dec 5 and they mean business in closing they said

"BRP's failure to respond promptly and fully to this letter could subject BRP to civil penalties
pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 30165 or lead to an action for injunctive relief pursuant to 49 U.S.C. §
30163. (Other remedies and sanctions are available as well.) The Vehicle Safety Act, as
amended, 49 U.S.C. § 30165(a), provides for civil penalties of up to $7,000 per day, with a
maximum of $17,350,000 for a related series of violations, for failing or refusing to perform an

act required under 49 U.S.C. § 30166. See 49 CFR 578.6 (as amended by 77 Fed. Reg. 70710



(November 27, 2012)). This includes failing to respond completely to ODI information requests.
If BRP cannot respond to any specific request or subpart(s) thereof, please state the reason why it
is unable to do so. If on the basis of attorney-client, attorney work product, or other privilege,
BRP does not submit one or more requested documents or items of information in response to
this information request, BRP must provide a privilege log identifying each document or item
withheld, and stating the date, subject or title, the name and position of the person(s) from, and
the person(s) to whom it was sent, and the name and position of any other recipient (to include
all carbon copies or blind carbon copies), the nature of that information or material, and the basis
for the claim of privilege and why that privilege applies.



http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM464683/INIM-PE14025-60435.pdf

[Jeriatric]

I have never been accused of "putting around" and I always shifted my 2013 at high RPM and my Spyder went up in flames. If you point your finger at me I just might break it off.

we second that.

[hchays]

Magdave, It's funny how I'm a know it all because I posted something you don't agree with. I never claimed to be a know it all. However what I said about short shifting and putting is indeed a fact that you somewhat agreed on in a later post about 20 mph and under. I as well am not amused the least bit by people that can't let someone state facts. FYI.. I have as much if not more knowledge about the NHTSA investigation than anyone on this site. Not here to debate that either, just another fact.


Vided, No what I am saying is the evap system does not work 100% if the Spyder is not shifted properly. It relies on the higher RPM because it is vacuum controlled. So if a person is putting around (which is nice to do some times) or short shifting it does not alow the evap system to do it's job 100%. If that happens it can contribute to the issue. Don't get me wrong as some have already done. I AM NOT SAYING it is the riders fault that the bike gets hot under the plastic OR that there is a gas smell to begin with, that is all BRP. What I am saying is by short shifting or putting around at low RPM's it can contribute to the issue.


SpyderAnn01/Jerbear, If you are not one that short shifts or putts around then my post had nothing to do with you. As far as that goes it had nothing to do with anyone that does not do either of those things. So why doesn't everyone relax and use my post as education for people that may not know you should not short shift or just putt around all the time. Facts are facts it is not helping the situation by doing that. So if you would actually read my post I did not point my finger at you.....

Bottom line is it is an issue that BRP created and I think is trying to fix, but they are moving at a snails pace in hopes that it will just go away. I for one am thankful the NHTSA has done their investigation and is perusing BRP (w/o their help I would not have gotten my 2014 side panels). I feel real bad for the people that have had actual fires, because I know I would be pissed! I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings with my original post, but if your going to attack me for stating facts don't expect me to sit back and take it.

[DrewNJ]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...

[Bob Denman]

Perhaps just removing the two side panels will alleviate the problem (AKA the F3) - If BRP told the dealers to do that, would that be acceptable? It would certainly get the heat out.... as in all things mechanical, there is no perfect end point for everyone. Someone will continue to be unhappy.
I once asked about that...
The answer I got, was that it forced airflow from up under the seat; throwing more heat on the rider. :shocked:

[jcthorne]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned very early in my post that it is not only an RT issue..... I was speaking of the ST/RS portion of the problem when I said they relocated the cat. I think you are the one that's mis-informed if you think the designed shift point is 3,500 rpm. I have spoken to 2 different service managers and someone that is much more informed about the situation than anyone on this site and my numbers have been confirmed. If your riding and shifting at a low RPM it does not allow the evap system to operate properly thus creating issues. I in no way said that the NHTSA says it's okay to have fumes emitting from the bike, but if the rider is not riding it the way it is suppose to be ridden then yes it is partially the riders fault. With your way of thinking if a rider with a manual clutch slips the clutch everytime they shift or at every stop light they are not to be held responsible for a burnt up clutch. I also CLEARLY said that BRP has blame in this issue!!
So do not attack my post if you do not read it. It is BRP's fault for the design and that the Spyders are getting hot, but if a rider does not ride it like it is designed to be ridden then they are contributing to the issue! So stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and acknowledge that SOME people CONTRIBUTE (not the total blame) the problem.


Sorry but now its you that is not reading what others post before responding. I said keeping rpms above 3500 when riding, not shifting at 3500. What I said is EXACTLY what BRP recommends. Again, this fuel vapor problem is 100% a design defect, it is NOT THE OWNERS FAULT. Please, its time the community at large quit trying to tell the 2013 owners its our own fault. Its not over filling the fuel tank, its not riding too slow, or shifting too soon. ITS BRPS DESIGN DEFECT. And they need to fix it.

[jcthorne]

we second that.

I 3rd that.....Thanks Anne.

[jcthorne]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...


There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs. The difference is some owners cannot smell gasoline fumes in lower quantities (its a known fact that a large percentage of the population cannot smell gasoline at concentrations just below the lower explosive limit). Just because you don't smell a problem does not mean its not there. Only a hydrocarbon detector is reliable enough to tell us that. Still, its FAR more than a dozen complaining.

Again, just because you are 'completely happy' does not mean your bike is not violating emissions laws and does not mean it wont burn the bike and your garage to the ground. It just means you are oblivious to the symptoms other are complaining about. This is why the NHTSA is making such a big deal about it.

[DrewNJ]

Again, just because you are 'completely happy' does not mean your bike is not violating emissions laws and does not mean it wont burn the bike and your garage to the ground. It just means you are oblivious to the symptoms other are complaining about. This is why the NHTSA is making such a big deal about it.

Considering you don't know me, or anything about me, that is a LOT of assuming.....Just saying.
Oblivious huh?...[emoji23] alrighty then.....best of luck to you all....[emoji87]

[Magdave]

I'm still waiting to hear, why if this is a design defect for the complete spyder lineup, does it only affect a very small percentage of machines on the road??
Seems like there are about a dozen...maybe? I know some of you have some real problems with your machines...no doubt. However, Lots more of us don't have issues and are completely happy.
Not trying to pick a fight, just a conversation...

You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not. Various "blames" and "fixes" have been trotted out over the years including gas caps (:banghead:) and short hoses none of which corrected the underlying problem which is excess heat and lack of engine bay ventilation.:dontknow: The next question is how much $$ has been spent by BRP and owners fixing various failures that were caused by the heat including hoses, parking brakes, electronics and wiring issues?.

[DrewNJ]

Dave, I honestly don't even know how to respond without being a total Dick, and I don't want to come across that way with you. We've been over all of this before and SO much falls on deaf ears. People choose who they want to listen to and bash the rest. Whatever...
I'm just going to stop here and wish you all the best.....sincerely.

[hchays]

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...

[Magdave]

Magdave, I was referring to you agreeing that putting is bad and I quote "In reality a SE5 should not be ridden under 20mph for very long".

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...

If you read the letter it is for ALL years they are investigating especially since the 2011 police bike flamed on. The 2013 because of the frame design is more prevalent in having the issues there really is a difference in available airflow room on a 2013 over previous years. I thought both you and Drew knew the facts involved here there have been hundreds of posts about the 2013 differences. My quote on the 20 mph pertained to SE models only and not because of heat it is because of tranny issues. You can lug a SM if you want to but performance will suffer due to being in the lower torque range.It also is not good for the clutch disks. I did not support your theory about faster higher revs means less heat, We all have to stop at lights and stop signs don't we?:dontknow: If you go to the NHTSA reporting sight and look for 2013 Spyder you will see the # of reports on it. I have never looked for other years but I assume there are more.

[hchays]

I am one of the 2013 complaints.... I also never said higher RPM's would create less heat. I said that the evap system operates with vacuum and it relies on the higher RPM's to operate properly.

[Magdave]

I am one of the 2013 complaints.... I also never said higher RPM's would create less heat. I said that the evap system operates with vacuum and it replies on the higher RPM's to operate properly.
:thumbup: You are absolutely correct my understanding is the purge valve works at ~ 5k I get what you were trying to say now. I have wondered before if it could be set to open at a lower RPM my self. In fact I generally rev my engine up there before shut down( in N) hoping the valve does open and suck a little pressure out.

[hchays]

:thumbup: You are absolutely correct my understanding is the purge valve works at ~ 5k I get what you were trying to say now. I have wondered before if it could be set to open at a lower RPM my self. In fact I generally rev my engine up there before shut down hoping the valve does open and suck a little pressure out.

I agree it should be set to open at a lower RPM. Probably more like 3,500 - 4,000 would be better suited for the majority of riders.

[Magdave]

I agree it should be set to open at a lower RPM. Probably more like 3,500 - 4,000 would be better suited for the majority of riders.

The other perplexing thing to me there is no purge valve failure code so no one can tell if it is even working. :dontknow:

[mastertek2000]

Vided, No what I am saying is the evap system does not work 100% if the Spyder is not shifted properly. It relies on the higher RPM because it is vacuum controlled. So if a person is putting around (which is nice to do some times) or short shifting it does not alow the evap system to do it's job 100%. If that happens it can contribute to the issue. Don't get me wrong as some have already done. I AM NOT SAYING it is the riders fault that the bike gets hot under the plastic OR that there is a gas smell to begin with, that is all BRP. What I am saying is by short shifting or putting around at low RPM's it can contribute to the issue.




i believe you are wrong there the evap system works on a negative vacuum it should only purge when you running down the road the constant wind going by the hose pulls vapors out the boiling gas makes it purge all the time

[AbNormy]

Craniac the clips gone or won't play

[hchays]

Mastertek2000, the purge valve only operates properly @ 5,000 rpm or above. If you do not hit that rpm regularly (Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you have to ride around at 5,000 rpm all the time) the evap system does not operate properly. It has nothing to do with air passing over the hoses.

[PMK]

Dave, I honestly don't even know how to respond without being a total Dick, and I don't want to come across that way with you. We've been over all of this before and SO much falls on deaf ears. People choose who they want to listen to and bash the rest. Whatever...
I'm just going to stop here and wish you all the best.....sincerely.

Agree, everyone needs to accept the fact that they may be wrong in their solution, proven facts are facts regarding the source of the heat and / or fumes. Strong egos will not solve the issue, maybe the government will, maybe not or maybe they will force something so extreme it all gets parked.

Regardless, there are some smart folks here, possibly smarter and more in tune with the true cause of the problem than BRP or the Government. Again, it may be time for the big bos to suck it up and stop testing and ask the real experts. Those that have resolved the problems. Then again, why should they...

FWIW, the rpm thing on the SE5, clutch engagement concern, one would expect that the problem may then be more noticed on an SM5.

Have those rapping ludest ever considered doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground.

Rather than bitch, and fight, help yourselves with a solid data base.

I truly suspect this one will go to court in a big class action law suit on top of the NHTSA findings and the inadequate means BRP failed to resolve the issue in a safe manner. It will get super ugly in court with words like negligence, and endangering life leading the pack.

Work together people...

The person I quoted is not an idiot in the tuning of these machines. Stop looking to fix a broken leg with a band aid. Listen to everyone with an open mind and opinion.

Has the NHTSA ever banned a vehicle from use on public roadways. A Spyder fire could be an endangerment to others, and these early may all get parked if it is not resolved.

Be careful and work together people, inbred fighting is not the answer!!!!

PK

[jcthorne]

Considering you don't know me, or anything about me, that is a LOT of assuming.....Just saying.
Oblivious huh?...[emoji23] alrighty then.....best of luck to you all....[emoji87]


Oblivious just means something could be occurring with out your being fully aware if it. Was not intended as an attack on your mental prowess. There was no offence intended in the use of that word.

[jcthorne]

Also I just want to point out that Drew and I are getting beat up by a couple of people that can't even post agreeing comments.

Jcthorne posts "There are over 100 documented cases that the NHTSA sent to BRP alone. The design defect is in ALL 2013 RTs"

Then Magdave posts "You do know there have been well over 25 bikes that have burned up don't you? Not all were 2013 models in fact the majority were not".

Come on guys if your going to try to prove a point at least agree on what your going to say....lol And just for the record I also own a 2013 with heat and gas fume issues...


Dave said there are 25 that have burned up, I said there were over 100 cases in the letter the NHTSA sent to BRP, not all 100 burned to the ground. Two different stats entirely.

[jcthorne]

Geez, another ELECTRONIC thread that is getting ugly because of a difference of CYBER opinion.
I'm going riding today.
Maybe shop for new ski gear that fits better since I've lost so much weight.

Oh, and as far as the topic at hand is concerned:

What hchays has stated about the evap canister and engine speed etc all makes sense to me.
The rider short shifting and riding slow probably adds to the fuel vapor issue.
That being the case, the Spyder should be built in a way that allows the rider to operate the vehicle slowly and by short shifting.

In my opinion, the route cause is prior to 2014, the Spyders were designed to be recreational vehicles.
Many of the issues that came up all point to that.
I think in 2010, BRP wanted to break into touring with the advent of the RT, but they emphasized comfort and accessory features without really addressing mechanical issues. I had some gas smell on my 2010 and some heat issues, but nothing of major import. Certainly nothing as great as some have reported, and not anything more than I ever had with any other motorcycle where the gas tank sat right over the engine.

I know the RT is a touring machine, but try "Touring" through Bridgeport at 7 am on the way to work.
Traffic is a daily occurrence, not just once a year riding in a parade and should be part of the design basis of ALL Spyders.

OK, now you can go back to fighting. Does anyone know what round this is ?

Nope, you are pretty much spot on.

Short shifting may indeed add to the problem, but only a very small amount. I do not short shift. Cant. Our RTs have been in trailer mode since the day they came home from the dealer. Simply cannot shift until the resulting RPM stays above 3500 RPM. RPM range simple cannot have anything to do with the gas fumes problem on our 2013s. Nor is it likely to have any real effect on the others, its just too small of a component.

Trouble is, even if the purge is working properly and fully purges the canister at each shift. Within minutes of sitting in traffic or after shutting the bike down, the system is overwhelmed with the quantity of vapors generated by the overheated fuel tank. As stated many times, the heat on the fuel tank is the problem, the evap system could never be designed to be large enough for the vapor load being thrown at it. Not even close, the canister would be the size of the bike. No, the evap system should not have been placed next to the engine and hot exhaust, but its big enough if the tank were not heated by the engine and exhaust.

The heat needs to get out and the tank needs to be protected from the heat that is still there. Reduce the quantity of vapors at the source and the evap system would likely work fine as designed. Perhaps even its location once the heat is lowered. The 2014 design with the evap can in the rear is a better design and may be were we are headed. At least for the 2013s as there is no battery in the way back there. The heat needs to be solved first.

[Craniac]

Craniac the clips gone or won't play


https://vimeo.com/110059713
I hooked a hose to the evap overflow then hit it with an ignition source.
2013 ST with several heat mods. It is not as severe now as when I first got the bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AbNormy]

So much for EPA questions!


Living the dream while I still can!

[hchays]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.

[Jeriatric]

For years and years, post after agonizing post, all of the problems BRP is now being required to respond to have been presented here ad nauseum.

Who knows why BRP failed to properly address the problems. It could be the severity of them was never properly presented to top management. Or, if they were, a concious decision was made to not address them. What ever the case. They are now being forced to answer for them.

The horse is out of the barn. Many here knew it was only a matter of time before it happened, and pleaded with BRP to stop it. They did not. I, for one, will now let them look for their horse.

[Bob Denman]

Folks: it seems to be getting a bit "testy" in here...:shocked:
Why not let everybody cool-off a bit, and tackle this mess from another direction?
JC is right...
Gather up an accurate pile of information first!
Find out what machknes are manifesting which problems, and then move forward from there.:thumbup:
Shouldn't we all be on the same team anyway? Fighting amongst ourselves is just a waste of valuable time.

[PMK]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.


I'm not sure if he agreed or did not agree, and honestly this should not be an issue for anyone posting here. First off, the wife and I own a 2014, so we are partially exempt from BRP's attitude, but still suffer on other matters BRP.

Overall folks, I read and see what is posted, then cringe as the bickering happens. I am no coach, but must be honest, play as a team, drop the egos or this will be over before it starts.

From discussions via PM's the heat, fumes and possibly fires are based on possibly several factors.

Before this topic gets locked, someone should steer the course to gather real data and let others (BRP and NHTSA) read worthy information, not bickering and muscle flexing, as you waive your hands telling others to get off the lawn.

Seriously, take a deep breathe and see how this all looks to an outsider looking in.

The best that will happen is the problem is resolved and none of you suffer a loss in value or loss via fire.

Not that I prefer to quote famous people, but as said before "a house divided will not stand". Suck it up and fight together, none of you are strong enough to beat BRP on their homefield. If another fire occurs and someone dies, it may be over for at least the 2013 and prior models.

All the best with it people.

PK

[Bob Denman]

An Old Klingon Proverb: "Only fools fight in a burning house"; comes to mind...:shocked:

[KX5062]

I read and see what is posted, then cringe as the bickering happens.

PK

Yep. :sour:

[AppleSpyder]

Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."

I am not sure if the information we could gather here would be of any help or not. Would BRP look at it or would NHTSA even consider it if it wasn't filed as a complaint? I have no idea and I am just wondering if we can do something to help in some way. If we could/would gather the information who would we submit it to?

[cognaccruiser]

Yep. :sour:

Ditto that.

Infighting and bickering not productive.

Gary

[Magdave]

Disagreement is fine just keep it respectful. Sometimes reading threads a person cannot detect the tone of the voice and that is the bane of internet posting. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion but lets keep it on topic I do not want to see this thread closed it is too important to all 2013 and prior owners.

The problems and solutions we...:bdh:. Most of the solutions that have worked well were costly which is why I believe BRP hasn't done them. Sure less expensive "fixes" have helped reduce the fire danger but not as much as is needed. Ceramic coated headers, proper fuel tank insulation, CAT insulated cover and more engine bay airflow is the solution. We shall see what BRP trots out to solve this long standing problem. I hope it happens by next summer...:dontknow:

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=AppleSpyder;894999]Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."
QUOTE]
I think that would be a GREATstart! :2thumbs:

[SpyderBandit]

I am fairly new to the Spyder world having bought my 09 phantom this past spring. Although I love the machine and still own a 2 wheeler, I must say I would have been hesitant to by a Spyder if I had read threads like this. I wonder how many potential sales BRP is losing from threads like this one.:sour:

[Rick11Flor]

I too have requested BRP fix my bike and did a lemon law suite on this issue. And BRP has done nothing to repair this issue. I hope this fixes all our issues and BRP. can get back to doing business like they should have from the start. By helping thous unsatisfied customer's.

rick&flor. thank you all

[SpyderAnn01]

I am fairly new to the Spyder world having bought my 09 phantom this past spring. Although I love the machine and still own a 2 wheeler, I must say I would have been hesitant to by a Spyder if I had read threads like this. I wonder how many potential sales BRP is losing from threads like this one.:sour:

Not many as most people are like you and don't do research before they buy.


I too have requested BRP fix my bike and did a lemon law suite on this issue. And BRP has done nothing to repair this issue. I hope this fixes all our issues and BRP. can get back to doing business like they should have from the start. By helping thous unsatisfied customer's.

rick&flor. thank you all

So what happened with the Lemon Law Suit? You say they have done nothing to repair your Spyder, were they ordered to repair it or did you lose the lawsuit?

[Bob Denman]

:agree: What was the dispositon of this case? :dontknow:
We're not getting the entire story...

[jcthorne]

Jcthorne, I'm not sure why you insist on arguing with everything I say. I don't know you, you don't know me so I'm not sure what your problem is and really don't care anymore. You argued with me, but agreed with PMK when they agreed with my statement WTF.... Anyway, if you want to continue to attack me because you don't agree with what I say, but agree with people that agree with what I say then keep on attacking by yourself. I'm getting a shower, hopping on my 2013 Spyder and going for a ride. Winter is closing in and we will have plenty of time to argue in the next few months.

Honestly, I am not trying to argue with you although it may seem that way. I am not attacking you. Trying to get the word out on where the 2013 problems lie. Seems we each make statements the other does not read the way intended. Somewhere in between the answer lies. The only entity I would like to attack is BRP for letting the problem go unanswered for so long and blaming the owners for their own design deficiencies.

Please do not consider my remarks as attacks on you or siding with PMK. I do not know either of you and frankly feel we would likely get along fine in person. Both of you seem very technically capable. Good folks to know. Sorry if I get a bit worked up on this subject. We own 2 2013 RTs. That a good deal of coin tied up in BRP products to have so little support and watch all the new toys and features rolled out and folks that came after us having fun when our Spyders are defective and BRP is ignoring the problem. When folks on this forum try and blame the owners, it rubs salt in a VERY sore wound.

[PMK]

Would this help?

"doing a poll in these forums...you know, what year machine, what model, what gearbox, where you live and ambient temps on a typical ride, one up or two up, a list of homegrown mods to select from and most importantly does the bike smell bad or has it burned to the ground."

I am not sure if the information we could gather here would be of any help or not. Would BRP look at it or would NHTSA even consider it if it wasn't filed as a complaint? I have no idea and I am just wondering if we can do something to help in some way. If we could/would gather the information who would we submit it to?

Here's the thing, baby steps like a poll of whatever items or criteria would at least group or lump the data in one spot. No need to present it to anyone or plan to, rather let those that have done nothing and have no issues have their spot, those people that have insulated items have their spot and those that have retuned have their spot, all within the same pole. May not even hurt to have it where those this did accomplish mods and the machined burned to also have a box to check.

Possibly a true forum type poll is not the best format, maybe a means to have a spreadsheet that can follow with each post. Consider also to limit the posts to just completing the spreadsheet. Keep words or post dry to minimize excess that can lead to bickering.

Sometimes, making another persons job easy gets solid results.

PK

[flamingobabe]

just to throw this in the pile.....my 2013 ST with 24k and some change has been running great since the flash and new side panels....and multiple other things BRP has done along with what Mark has done......but I put 12k on a very hot Spyder...how much damage was done that will show it's ugly face down the road.....all rubber parts are compromised ....plug wires already replaced....they were crumbling.....so who will be responsible......after a full days ride, 400 miles, I still have some gas boiling...but not as bad....I still get great mpg.....33 to 37....I'm I still running too lean.....time will tell....just afraid that BRP and NHTSA will just over look me....5 complaints and have never been contacted

[Magdave]

just to throw this in the pile.....my 2013 ST with 24k and some change has been running great since the flash and new side panels....and multiple other things BRP has done along with what Mark has done......but I put 12k on a very hot Spyder...how much damage was done that will show it's ugly face down the road.....all rubber parts are compromised ....plug wires already replaced....they were crumbling.....so who will be responsible......after a full days ride, 400 miles, I still have some gas boiling...but not as bad....I still get great mpg.....33 to 37....I'm I still running too lean.....time will tell....just afraid that BRP and NHTSA will just over look me....5 complaints and have never been contacted
Don't feel bad. I called BRP to check my case numbers and the one about the gas dripping is still open. I asked why no contact has ever happened and....crickets. There is plenty of mention of the "sport" models in the request which includes the ST and there is mention of the panels that were sent on a case by case request instead of a total recall. NTHSA has a good grip on what is going on I have exchanged several emails with the investigator who's email was mentioned earlier in this thread. He is more than interested to receive documented verifiable data from any owner including those who have made ,ESPECIALLY made confidential, deals with BRP to get off any of the 2013's. They will be treated confidentially by NHTSA. So if you have measurements of heat temp pictures, pictures of gas dripping etc they want to hear from you including any fixes you may have tried that made a difference and some after fix measurements showing improvements.:thumbup:

[Jeriatric]

"ESPECIALLY made confidential, deals with BRP to get off any of the 2013's."

BRP wouldn't do that. Would they? :roflblack:

[Magdave]

"ESPECIALLY made confidential, deals with BRP to get off any of the 2013's."

BRP wouldn't do that. Would they? :roflblack:
I know of a couple myself. Just not the way to do business and treat the rest of us. It shows they know they have a problem. Not recalling the ST's and only giving panels to those that ask is another poor deal. What about all the people who do not know about it?

[Jeriatric]

If one thinks back. NHTSA has not been in a very acommodating mood as far as manufacturers and their willingness to lend a blind eye to known problems goes. I wouldn't want to be one of the ones they are focusing on at this time.

[PMK]

From another forum and this applies to Toyota Tacoma trucks. They are having a recall based on the rear spring failing and puncturing the fuel tank with possible fires.


There is a new recall for the rear springs: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

Report Receipt Date: SEP 29, 2014
NHTSA Campaign Number: 14V604000
Component(s):
All Products Associated with this Recall expand
Details close
4 Associated Documents expand
Manufacturer: Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing
SUMMARY:
Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing (Toyota) is recalling certain model year 2005-2011 Toyota Tacoma Pre-Runner and 4x4 vehicles manufactured September 14, 2009, to October 11, 2010. In the affected vehicles, one of the leaf springs may fracture due to stress or corrosion. While being driven, the broken leaf could move out of position and contact surrounding components including the fuel tank, possibly puncturing the tank and causing a fuel leak.
CONSEQUENCE:
If the fuel tank leaks fuel from being punctured, there is an increased risk of a fire.
REMEDY:
The remedy for this recall is still under development. The recall is expected to begin November 28, 2014. Owners may contact Toyota customer service at 1-800-331-4331.
NOTES:
Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov (http://www.safercar.gov).

PK

[PMK]

Just an idea on maybe letting those effected vehicles, and those posting about the heat concerns document in a common place. The attached file has a header and proper cell formats, but you get the idea.

PK








MODEL YEAR




MODEL




HEAT ISSUES



Y or N




FUEL ODOR



Y or N




FUEL DRIPPING



Y or N




WRAPPED EXHAUST



Y or N




INSULATED FUEL TANK



Y or N




ADDITIONAL VENTING OF LOWER UNDERBODY



Y or N




VEHICLE BURNED



Y or N




EMAIL



ADDRESS





COMMENTS




(PROBLEM CONTINUES OR DOES NOT CONTINUE)

[Rick11Flor]

Not many as most people are like you and don't do research before they buy.



So what happened with the Lemon Law Suit? You say they have done nothing to repair your Spyder, were they ordered to repair it or did you lose the lawsuit?
I can't tell you over this forum but it is still on going and I think I will end up with a 14 with free warrenty🙈🙉🙊

rick&flor. thank you all

[Magdave]

I can't tell you over this forum but it is still on going and I think I will end up with a 14 with free warrenty������

rick&flor. thank you all

And that is another part of the problem problem IMHO. Some people are having confidential settlements with BRP. My state does not have a motorcycle lemon law.:mad:

[Bob Denman]

Dave,
I HOPE that you're not faulting him for that...
Wouldn't you take a new bike, if it was offered? :dontknow:

[Magdave]

Dave,
I HOPE that you're not faulting him for that...
Wouldn't you take a new bike, if it was offered? :dontknow:
Absolutely :thumbup: That isn't the point Bob very few are getting that kind of treatment but many have the same issues. :dontknow:I can't even get BRP to even try to resolve my open case over gas drips on the garage floor. That case is over a year old.

[spyder3]

Absolutely :thumbup: That isn't the point Bob very few are getting that kind of treatment but many have the same issues. :dontknow:I can't even get BRP to even try to resolve my open case over gas drips on the garage floor. That case is over a year old.

I think if proven that some "special" people got new bikes, that will open a can of worms for BRP....:lecturef_smilie:

[oldguyinTX]

Absolutely :thumbup: That isn't the point Bob very few are getting that kind of treatment but many have the same issues. :dontknow:I can't even get BRP to even try to resolve my open case over gas drips on the garage floor. That case is over a year old.

You are absolutely correct. I know of someone who had their engine replaced by BRP (no model or year can be mentioned) and this person is under a gag order from BRP not to post it on social media. This is what they do. They pick and choose, make settlements, and then impose gag orders if you want resolution. Hell of a way to run a company.

[SpyderAnn01]

I think if proven that some "special" people got new bikes, that will open a can of worms for BRP....:lecturef_smilie:

"Got" is probably not the right word to use nor is "special".

[SpyderAnn01]

You are absolutely correct. I know of someone who had their engine replaced by BRP (no model or year can be mentioned) and this person is under a gag order from BRP not to post it on social media. This is what they do. They pick and choose, make settlements, and then impose gag orders if you want resolution. Hell of a way to run a company.

I would think that that is a pretty typical way of running a company. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and those who squeak the loudest get the most grease. Just life.

[PMK]

I think if proven that some "special" people got new bikes, that will open a can of worms for BRP....:lecturef_smilie:

Amen brother...If this comes forward, especially in court, if true, it will be brutally difficult to hide or defend. As of now, I bet that program has stopped.

PK

[spyder3]

"Got" is probably not the right word to use nor is "special".

Semantics.

[Bob Denman]

"Words", is all that we have in here... :D

[WolfeeK9]

My 2012 RT Limited also has fumes emitting from it after a ride and I must leave garage door open for long periods after a ride to limit fumes in my garage. Even while sitting between rides it emits a gas fume smell but not as strong as after a ride. I do not over fill my tank I stop filling when handle of gas pump clicks off. I have had pressure at times when unscrewing gas cap also. I received and replaced with new cap as per BRP refitting of gas caps still have same issues.

[Magdave]

Just a word from the investigator. Although he is glad to receive emails you MUST go to the NHTSA website to file a complaint not by emailing him.:thumbup:

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Owners

[crazyspyder]

I did file a complaint, my right to do so...but I believe this thread will soon be locked and closed soon. similar thread already done so.:shocked:

[CruiseRT]

I did file a complaint, my right to do so...but I believe this thread will soon be locked and closed soon. similar thread already done so.:shocked:

I think you are right.
I just talked with investigator and sent more information.

[Jeriatric]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAyDmJvjxbg

[cuznjohn]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAyDmJvjxbg

did you hear about the guy that got aids in his eye, he also got it from looking for love in all the wrong places... sorry i had to hijack the post for that one

[finless]

I did file a complaint, my right to do so...but I believe this thread will soon be locked and closed soon. similar thread already done so.:shocked:

The other post got closed by Lamont due to the posts about organizing a lawsuit. Stay off that subject and this should stay open!

Bob

[MidTNDawg]

The other post got closed by Lamont due to the posts about organizing a lawsuit. Stay off that subject and this should stay open!

Bob

in Super Contributor's best interest for a class action to be formed here. And FWIW, I don't think it is in Spyder Owner's best interest either.

[Jeriatric]

The other post got closed by Lamont due to the posts about organizing a lawsuit. Stay off that subject and this should stay open!

Bob


in Super Consultant's best interest for a class action to be formed here. And FWIW, I don't think it is in Spyder Owner's best interest either.


Most who talk about such things have an itchy triger finger and NO bullets in their gun. Ya know what I mean!

[Magdave]

NO LAWSUIT talk this needs to stay open it is way too important to the affected owners. Thank You:thumbup:

[DrewNJ]

..

[MidTNDawg]

Most who talk about such things have an itchy triger finger and NO bullets in their gun. Ya know what I mean!

and you are correct.

[Magdave]

Keep on topic guys do not even discuss the discussion of it. :banghead:

[Jeriatric]

Keep on topic guys do not even discuss the discussion of it. :banghead:

Dave, doesn't that make.....your head hurt?

Reality is. If Lamont wants a reason to close a post. He'll find one. Actually, he can do so without reason. After all. He owns the ball field.

[oldguyinTX]

Keep on topic guys do not even discuss the discussion of it. :banghead:

:agree::agree: That subject is NOT something that should be on this thread, so knock it off if you want this thread to stay open so that folks can exchange information.

[Magdave]

I know Bear just give it a rest OK :thumbup:

[Jeriatric]

I know Bear just give it a rest OK :thumbup:

:bowdown:

[finless]

:bowdown:

Bad bear, bad bear! ;)

Bob

[ptouch12]

The other post got closed by Lamont due to the posts about organizing a lawsuit. Stay off that subject and this should stay open!

Bob

So we are unable to express our true feelings or suggestions on this forum because Lamont is cozy with BRP?

[oldguyinTX]

So we are unable to express our true feelings or suggestions on this forum because Lamont is cozy with BRP?

Are you actively trying to get this thread closed? Lamont's relationship/or not relationship with BRP is irrelevant to this thread. Folks need to stay focused on what is being discussed for the greater good. If you want to talk about relationships, lawsuits, feelings, etc., take it to another forum. Spyderlovers is not the only one out there. If we want to be on this forum, we have to abide by the Administrator's rules.

[DrewNJ]

IBTL!

[MidTNDawg]

I have only had 2 Spyders. But I have never had any problem with either of them. No heat, no fumes, not steering problems, nor anything else.

[Magdave]

So we are unable to express our true feelings or suggestions on this forum because Lamont is cozy with BRP?

Since you decided to post your first post on the forum on this thread just keep it on topic and do not try and highjack an important thread. If you want to talk about something other than the NHTSA investigation take to off topic please. :thumbup:

[Magdave]

I have only had 2 Spyders. But I have never had any problem with either of them. No heat, no fumes, not steering problems, nor anything else.

You are one of the lucky ones and I assume you do not have a 2013 RT? There are many satisfied Spyder owners no doubt not all of them have issues. :thumbup:

[reggystan]

I had forgotten about this issue for a while now and thought it was taken care of. But every model Spyder I've ever owned always had this bad gas fume smell, on my 08 I couldn't ride with my helmet visor open for long periods of time because the gas or fumes from the motor would make my eyes watery and irritated so I quit using the tall windscreen to get more fresh air, Then I got an 09' and it did the same, My 12' and 13' RT also did the same and finally I resorted and put the Vertika air scoops which forces air into the side vents down instead of the vacuuming effect it has. This took care most of the gas smell and it was actually ok until you parked the vehicle in the garage. I was always scared to let it cool in the garage so I would always run the fan on high to circulate the air in there and the whole garage would smell like gasoline. Now fast forward to 2014. Rode my 14' RT down from Canada and my first official ride on the RT and the smell is back. I had such a bad headache from the gas smell it's just unbearable. I thought I was the only one. I also have this humming sound when you first turn the key and everyone tells me its perhaps the fuel pump and it's normal. When your riding it always sounds like a hummingbird with a faint humm sound, worse when you wear a helmet then you really can hear it. I spoke with BRP rep at Spyderfest and they said it is within the normal operating procedure, What???? So now I've had to resort to buying and putting the air scoops back on, but first it needs to get painted to match the bike and hopefully no more gas fumes. I'm glad not all is experiencing this and hope there is a solution coming soon. Anyway I'm usually not very vocal about issues but I think this is pretty important. Hard to enjoy riding when you've got a headache from fuel smells plus all your clothes smells horrible at the end of the day. You literally smell like you've been wrenching all day and not riding! LOL

[crazyspyder]

my dealer to this day tells me that it is NORMAL (stenching-fouled - gas fumed smell). that goes for the squealing brakes and HEAT.
oooh and the fact that my spyder has been in their service shop a dozen times at 2-3 week at a time, so guess what ? I got very
minimum riding time this summer.:banghead: I am being patient though......and let the warranty do its job!:thumbup:

[ThreeWheels]

I had forgotten about this issue for a while now and thought it was taken care of. But every model Spyder I've ever owned always had this bad gas fume smell, on my 08 I couldn't ride with my helmet visor open for long periods of time because the gas or fumes from the motor would make my eyes watery and irritated so I quit using the tall windscreen to get more fresh air, Then I got an 09' and it did the same, My 12' and 13' RT also did the same and finally I resorted and put the Vertika air scoops which forces air into the side vents down instead of the vacuuming effect it has. This took care most of the gas smell and it was actually ok until you parked the vehicle in the garage. I was always scared to let it cool in the garage so I would always run the fan on high to circulate the air in there and the whole garage would smell like gasoline. Now fast forward to 2014. Rode my 14' RT down from Canada and my first official ride on the RT and the smell is back. I had such a bad headache from the gas smell it's just unbearable. I thought I was the only one. I also have this humming sound when you first turn the key and everyone tells me its perhaps the fuel pump and it's normal. When your riding it always sounds like a hummingbird with a faint humm sound, worse when you wear a helmet then you really can hear it. I spoke with BRP rep at Spyderfest and they said it is within the normal operating procedure, What???? So now I've had to resort to buying and putting the air scoops back on, but first it needs to get painted to match the bike and hopefully no more gas fumes. I'm glad not all is experiencing this and hope there is a solution coming soon. Anyway I'm usually not very vocal about issues but I think this is pretty important. Hard to enjoy riding when you've got a headache from fuel smells plus all your clothes smells horrible at the end of the day. You literally smell like you've been wrenching all day and not riding! LOL

That's disappointing news.
As a counterpoint, my 2010 would occasionally stink up my garage, but not so bad that I was worried. More of an inconvenience. I was never able to determine the specific conditions that caused it, but I suspect it was when the gas tank was low.
My 2014 seems to fine. No smells at all. Although I do have the whining fuel pump. Complain to your dealer and they should replace it for you.

[MouthPiece]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[DrewNJ]

So much for the F3 being the hot topic around here....

[oldguyinTX]

So much for the F3 being the hot topic around here....

This thread has nothing to do with the F3. There is a separate forum for that.

[DrewNJ]

What's an F3?

[FireSale]

An F3 is a middle grade tornado, not as bad as the F5, but worse than the F1.

[obiwan57]

Having recently purchased a 2013 RT Limited, and dealing with some of these heat and gas vapor issues, I agree that we should stay on topic, and avoid talk of litigation. I have formally registered complaints with the NHTSA, and corresponded with Mr. Robert Young of the NHTSA, who is working these issues. I think the long-term benefit of us 2013 Spyder owners is more important than having someone upset the process with premature talk about class action lawsuits.

[Bob Denman]

An F3 is a middle grade tornado, not as bad as the F5, but worse than the F1.

Are you saying that it "BLOWS"?? :D

[Tnpapa]

Have a 2013 rs that is almost unrideable in 80 plus temperatures due to the heat from the bike. Gives you first degree burns. Have posted a complaint to the proper safety administration.

[Bob Denman]

Thank-you for doing so. :thumbup:
Sorry to hear that you're experiencing this, but still... :welcome: :2thumbs:

[DrewNJ]

An F3 is a middle grade tornado, not as bad as the F5, but worse than the F1.
Thank you...[emoji5]

[oldguyinTX]

I printed it & I have read through it a couple of times. Here is what jumped out at me:

Page 7, #14; "fully describe all assessments, analyses, tests, test results, studies, surveys, simulations, investigations, inquiries and/or (collectively, "actions") wherein temperature readings were noted that support BRP's marketing claim of "improved heat management" found at http://can-am.brp.spyder/shopping-tools/why-chose-an-am-spyder/the-new-2014-spyder-rt.html for the MY2014 Spyder RT models. Provide all documents comparing/contrasting the temperature readings BRP relied upon when making that claim."

Page 8, #18 (g); "Separately for each of the 16 fires BRP identifies that are, or could be, within the scope of 12V-582, provide all documents related to each fire.

Page 8, #19 (d); "Separately, for each of the 30 fires BRP identifies that are, or could be, within the scope of 12V-581, provide all documents related to each fire.

Page 9, #20 (d); "Separately, for each of the 3 fires that BRP identifies prompting its recall, provide all related documents."

Boys & girls, that is a total of 49 fires that BRP has identified. Not once in my agonizingly long year of dealing with BRP have they ever acknowledged even 1 fire to me. Have they to any of you? I think that this is really going to bite BRP in the :cus:. Not to mention the marketing claim of "improved heat management" which implies that they knew all along that there was a heat problem with the 2013 RT's. I was told today by a BRP representative that the 2014 RT was "a completely designed bike" with new panels and twin radiators relocated to the front that "reverse in stop and go traffic".

I think that we are getting closer to some resolution with this. Below are 2 Emails from Bob Young a NHTSA.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 1:39 PM, <Robert.Young@dot.gov<mailto:Robert.Young@dot.gov>> wrote:
You should have your cannister weighed, Dwight. If more than 485 grams, it should be replaced.

Bob Young

Vehicle Defects Investigator

USDOT/NHTSA/ODI

202-366-4806 (tel:202-366-4806)<tel:202-366-4806 (tel:202-366-4806)>

I hope that helps. Make certain, too, that they check the roll-over and purge valves (per BRP diagnostic recommendations). In any event, please let me know what they find.

Bob Young

Vehicle Defects Investigator

USDOT/NHTSA/ODI

202-366-4806 (tel:202-366-4806)

Keep your fingers crossed. I know mine are.

[Jeriatric]

"Not to mention the marketing claim of "improved heat management" which implies that they knew all along that there was a heat problem with the 2013 RT's."

Have said this before and think it's worth repeating. One way to diminish a previously known problem is to make it worse. That is what happened in 2013. Those who have had heat issues prior to 2013 should not be discounted.

[uralski]

This is great news they have to step up now what really get me is all the dealers from what i read when you ask them if this is a common problem they all say the same thing i never heard of this before yup OK lets hope justice will be served i am about ready to trade my 2013 because of the fuel smell been to the dealer 2 times on more time then i will file a lemon law this surelly will help anyone that wants file a lemon law on their bike
When I asked about using the lemon law a couple of years ago on a different motorcycle, I was told the law didn't apply to motercycles just cars.

[Magdave]

When I asked about using the lemon law a couple of years ago on a different motorcycle, I was told the law didn't apply to motercycles just cars.
It varies by state mine does not have one.Needless to say lets stay on topic this is something for another thread. :thumbup:

[cuznjohn]

An F3 is a middle grade tornado, not as bad as the F5, but worse than the F1.

well a light year has 2/3 rd's less calories than a regular year

[SpyderAnn01]

I printed it & I have read through it a couple of times. Here is what jumped out at me:


Boys & girls, that is a total of 49 fires that BRP has identified. Not once in my agonizingly long year of dealing with BRP have they ever acknowledged even 1 fire to me. Have they to any of you? I think that this is really going to bite BRP in the :cus:. Not to mention the marketing claim of "improved heat management" which implies that they knew all along that there was a heat problem with the 2013 RT's. I was told today by a BRP representative that the 2014 RT was "a completely designed bike" with new panels and twin radiators relocated to the front that "reverse in stop and go traffic".

I.

Of course BRP or their dealers wouldn't have "acknowledged even 1 fire" to you, they believed that they had fixed the problems.

[cuznjohn]

see i complained about the heat on my 13 rt quite a bit, and spent close to 5k to try to fix it. i sold the bike and the new owner also has heat with it but it doesn't get to him as much as it did to me

[Magdave]

If you have not seen it here is a NHTSA PDF that explains the whole process of what is going on:thumbup:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/documents/MVDefectsandRecalls.pdf

[mastertek2000]

any more news on this topic ???

[Bob Denman]

:agree: Would you like some Bratwursts while we wait? :D
:bbq::bbq::bbq:

[Magdave]

Nuthin' new if you read the above PDF it is happening in steps. The step we are in will move on after DEC 5 deadline for BRP to respond. NHTSA has been testing bike and have results and are talking to owners. That is all that is happening....for now.

[Bob Denman]

Thanks, Dave... :thumbup:

[Mickay]

Hopefully, pre-2013 will stay in the course, like mine 2010 RTS PE , boiling gas, irriting eyes, dripping gas ,smell clothes. When new my dealer told me it's was normal operation. So i keep riding it like that not without inconvenient.
But i'm in canada so Transport Canada don't bite to hard if it's not push by NHTSA.
(I remember at that time when i complaint for the erratic power steering)
Please BRP waiting for good news for pre-2013 for canadian owner in december.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Lone Spyder Ryder]

deja vu my first 08 was one of the 109. I just bought a 2013 SE5 ST Limited, I just started riding it the last few weeks back and forth to the store or run a short errand. Did take it to Lodi to have some thing fixed happened to it before I got it. But did ride it long enough to know that the sides get hot enough in 80 degree to make you keep your leg away from the side and the fuel smell at some long lights and I have left it our a few times when i got home and got a gas smell.
I do like the looks of the 2013 and was looking forward to riding again and will wait to see how it goes. I ordered the BajaRon swaybar kit and Lamonster highway brackets and pegs. Oh well it is what it is, and that is all it is.
You all ride safe.:thumbup:

[Lone Spyder Ryder]

If you read the letter it is for ALL years they are investigating especially since the 2011 police bike flamed on. The 2013 because of the frame design is more prevalent in having the issues there really is a difference in available airflow room on a 2013 over previous years. I thought both you and Drew knew the facts involved here there have been hundreds of posts about the 2013 differences. My quote on the 20 mph pertained to SE models only and not because of heat it is because of tranny issues. You can lug a SM if you want to but performance will suffer due to being in the lower torque range.It also is not good for the clutch disks. I did not support your theory about faster higher revs means less heat, We all have to stop at lights and stop signs don't we?:dontknow: If you go to the NHTSA reporting sight and look for 2013 Spyder you will see the # of reports on it. I have never looked for other years but I assume there are more.
Spyders have been burning up since 08 and I know that for sure.

[smcconnel]

Well, it seems I'm one of the people who just cant stand the heat that comes out between the seats. I thought initially it was just....well too tight tighty whities.....it was quite painful on many occasions.

I for one hope they deal with it as they should but ultimately corporate greed willweigh its ugly head. I'm too new an owner to put BRP down for their customer service and dont know much about their attempts at customer loyalty (but by reading here....it's either non-existent or so little as to be...)

*anxiously awaiting their response*

[SpyderAnn01]

Hopefully, pre-2013 will stay in the course, like mine 2010 RTS PE , boiling gas, irriting eyes, dripping gas ,smell clothes. When new my dealer told me it's was normal operation. So i keep riding it like that not without inconvenient.
But i'm in canada so Transport Canada don't bite to hard if it's not push by NHTSA.
(I remember at that time when i complaint for the erratic power steering)
Please BRP waiting for good news for pre-2013 for canadian owner in december.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Did you replace the gas cap?

[Raknid]

Did you replace the gas cap?

We have a 2012 RT with the replacement gas cap and it still fills the garage with fumes. There are others with pre-2013 models experiencing the same.

[M109Dreamer]

We have a 2012 RT with the replacement gas cap and it still fills the garage with fumes. There are others with pre-2013 models experiencing the same.
I agree, we have at 11 RTS/SE5 and still have the gas fume issue, especially in the summer after a long ride.

[SpyderAnn01]

On my 2010 RT the boiling gas never happened after the new gas cap was installed. It always smelled of gas, as did my 2013.

[Mickay]

Did you replace the gas cap?


At the same time they make the recall. Receive by mail. and nothing change.

[mastertek2000]

any news on this dead line is getting closer ?????????????????

[Magdave]

any news on this dead line is getting closer ?????????????????

Won't hear anything till after the deadline I am sure. NHTSA will need time to digest it and discuss it with BRP.:thumbup:

[thrinsag]

Really?? 'Bout time the NHTSA did something. I have written BRP twice about the heat and other issues on my 2013 ST-SE5 since the beginning of this year and they haven't answered with a single word. It will be so easy for them to get away with their incompetence or carelessness. And, I would be wiling to bet they count off a kazillion dollars on R&D, yet it is obvious they do none of it. Well, hope their britches get in the fire on this one. I will be corresponding with the NHTSA.

[Bob Denman]

Why'd you buy their product if you hate them so much? :dontknow:

"Well, hope their britches get in the fire on this one."

Would you prefer that the Spyder be taken off the market?? :yikes:

[mastertek2000]

I love my spyder just wa t a fix that is a I ask for

[Bob Denman]

That's cool; I've got no problem with anyone looking for solutions...
But I will admit, to growing tired of "BRP bashing"... :opps:

[mastertek2000]

That's cool; I've got no problem with anyone looking for solutions...
But I will admit, to growing tired of "BRP bashing"... :opps:
I feel you bob this is my second spyder I am sure it won't be my last like I said I love my spyder just want a fix

[JerryB]

Hi Bob,

Re: But I will admit, to growing tired of "BRP bashing"...

Not me; IMO it is well-deserved.

I had a very simple technical question; went to their website & sent them a CONTACT US message.

I received a yadda-yadda generic response. Then it has the audacity to say that if I wanted further information ( 'further;' it had NONE ) that I should call this phone number. So I did; do you think I could get 'any' info out of them? Nada, negatory, nothing.

Sorry state of affairs.

I own and operate a small business; if I treated my customers like that I would be out of business in a week.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) On the positive side: You & I seem to like the same type of jokes. :yes:

[ekfraz]

I love my Spyder but can't stand the heat, I hope they get everything worked out.

[DrewNJ]

IMHO- Life is WAY to short. If you all are THAT unhappy with the product or how you've been treated, then its time to move on.... You DO have a choice.

[Mickay]

I can't wait to hear all the reason from BRP to NHTSA to justify after investigation that everything is like it was design by there engineer and is probably a misunderstood of there customer they don't know how to use there product.

[Mickay]

So no reason to make any recall.

[Bob Denman]

IMHO- Life is WAY to short. If you all are THAT unhappy with the product or how you've been treated, then its time to move on.... You DO have a choice.
:agree: I know that there are a whole bunch of folks looking for answers...
I also know that 2013 was a model year that got caught "in-between". :shocked:
Nobody knows what is going to happen; I'd HATE to see it sink the entire product line...

[Raknid]

I just want to ensure our ride is safe. First... want to make sure it does not start on fire while my wife is riding. Secondly, I don't want it to burn down my house ...or the neighbor's. I have no desire for BRP to go out of business.... nor will I be an apologist for them if there is an issue. We otherwise love our Spyder and I praise BRP for their boldness and innovation. Just need to make sure it is safe. Not looking to bury the company or put their workers out of jobs.

[BajaRon]

My opinion, which is worth way less than what you'll pay for it, is; this is a Catch 22 for BRP. No matter which way they go it will have some hefty negative consequences, including additional exposure to court litigation. I'd say the legal beagles are earning their paycheck on this one.

With people lined up, axes in hand, BRP doesn't want to supply the grinders. All the while, some owners are left twisting in the wind.

No one wants it to be this way, and someone will probably have to take responsibility (you would assume this would be BRP). Hopefully, an unnecessarily ugly situation will soon be headed towards a satisfactory solution. I think this is the best we can hope for. The sooner, the better.

[Bob Denman]

:agree: :clap: Thank you... :thumbup:

[shelbydave]

Gonna give my opinion, although nobody wants it...
NHTSA is dealing with a specific issue - fires. This covers the melted parts, the fuel issue, and other related stuff.

90% of the complaints I've read on here relate to the "hot foot" or other "comfort" issues, and those guys seem to think they can jump on the NHTSA bandwagon, and get some sort of results... Don't hold your breath waiting!!

While the investigation is legit, and BRP has been trying to address these issues, the comfort issues just simply aren't legitimate complaints to roll into this issue. To those people, I still say, just move on to another toy if it brings you that much grief.

I'll crawl back in my hole again because I really don't give a crap if I offend anyone...

[Bob Denman]

:clap: You are 100% correct... :2thumbs:

[jaherbst]

IMHO- Life is WAY to short. If you all are THAT unhappy with the product or how you've been treated, then its time to move on.... You DO have a choice.


At what loss? Come on now stop thinking only of yourself. A lot of people out there who got burned in there purchase from BRP. Let's not shove them under the bus because we do not have the same problem. I had a 2013 and know how they feel. It cost me nearly $12,000 to get rid of it.

Jack

[wyliec]

Gonna give my opinion, although nobody wants it...
NHTSA is dealing with a specific issue - fires. This covers the melted parts, the fuel issue, and other related stuff.

90% of the complaints I've read on here relate to the "hot foot" or other "comfort" issues, and those guys seem to think they can jump on the NHTSA bandwagon, and get some sort of results... Don't hold your breath waiting!!

While the investigation is legit, and BRP has been trying to address these issues, the comfort issues just simply aren't legitimate complaints to roll into this issue. To those people, I still say, just move on to another toy if it brings you that much grief.

I'll crawl back in my hole again because I really don't give a crap if I offend anyone...

Are you just complaining about the piggybacking of other issues on to the fire issues being addressed by the NHTSA, or are you complaining about the complainers of everything from A to Z? And, yes I did see where you used the word opinion.

[Magdave]

I do not have a hot foot issue that is easily fixed. I and many others are concerned about the gas fumes that are excessive on the 2013 especially. NHTSA has asked for the CARB certification tests and documents on the EVAP system. That should tell you what they are looking at as a possible fire hazard. We will be learning more in the coming months but BRP has had some people try (test pilots) a heat fix kit with a reversing fan and drilled holes that has not worked that well. They are looking for a fix but it will cost them more that they would like IMHO. Coated headers, fully insulated gas tank and CAT cover is what I believe may work. :dontknow:

[cuznjohn]

Gonna give my opinion, although nobody wants it...
NHTSA is dealing with a specific issue - fires. This covers the melted parts, the fuel issue, and other related stuff.

90% of the complaints I've read on here relate to the "hot foot" or other "comfort" issues, and those guys seem to think they can jump on the NHTSA bandwagon, and get some sort of results... Don't hold your breath waiting!!

While the investigation is legit, and BRP has been trying to address these issues, the comfort issues just simply aren't legitimate complaints to roll into this issue. To those people, I still say, just move on to another toy if it brings you that much grief.

I'll crawl back in my hole again because I really don't give a crap if I offend anyone...

i beg to differ with you, i had a canister replaced but mt main complaint to the NHTSA and to BRP was the hot foot issue. i didn't have any fires or melting parts but i was contacted by the gentleman from the NHTSA to bring my bike for him to take heat readings for the survey. when he found out i sold the bike he thanked me for my time. but the hot foot issue was also being investigated

[DrewNJ]

At what loss? Come on now stop thinking only of yourself. A lot of people out there who got burned in there purchase from BRP. Let's not shove them under the bus because we do not have the same problem. I had a 2013 and know how they feel. It cost me nearly $12,000 to get rid of it.

Jack
A $12,000 loss is peanuts if you TRULY fear for your life or your property burning down.
If I had one of those problem child machines and was TRULY worried about the things I read about on here that people are bitching about, I would have traded it in LONG ago.

I had a new Jeep many many years ago, one of the first new vehicles I ever owned, that kept burning up computers and would leave me stranded.
Traded it in and moved on.....looking back, it was probably one of the best moves I've made. I took a loss for sure.
Is it fair or right? No. But like I said, life is way to short to sweat this stuff.
And I certainly didn't go all crazy on the Jeep forums either.

Remember, this is a hobby. If your not happy, its time to move on.....
The fact is that we all have a choice and we all know the risks. People choose to own and operate their own machine.

[chuck gross]

At what loss? Come on now stop thinking only of yourself. A lot of people out there who got burned in there purchase from BRP. Let's not shove them under the bus because we do not have the same problem. I had a 2013 and know how they feel. It cost me nearly $12,000 to get rid of it.

Jack

:agree: Yes some of us have upwards of thirty thousand invested in a machine that keeps us wondering if it could burst into flames not all of us can afford to take a 12 grand or more hit as much as we may want to upgrade. at this point I am just going to sit back and enjoy the ryde that I have and try not to stress out about it.
I do not wish any thing bad for BRP they have always done right by me and have fixed any issues other than the obvious gas fume heat thing.

[garb55]

If I had one of the heat problem bikes
I could not just sell it to another person
If that person had a fire and there house burned down, or they got hurt, or, god forbid someone was killed
I would feel like I just shot someone
I would have to live with that the rest of my life
I am not like that
Don

[chuck gross]

Don, too bad BRP doesn't have your morales I think they are darn lucky no one has burned to death ( yet )
and I sure hope it never happens for everyone concerned.

[jcthorne]

While the fires are a terrible thing and someone is likely to get hurt if this goes on, It would be pretty hard to get trapped on a burning bike and not be able to get off and get away. Its not nearly as worrysome to me as a fire prone car. Sure, the loss would be financially large, but its pretty unlikely I would get seriously hurt if my Spyder caught fire. They don't explode without warning. I can say, if mine caught fire, I'd likely not risk any sort of injury to try and put it out. Let it go. Insurance and BRP can fight over who's problem it is.

For now, our 2013s are running great. No thanks to BRP. We enjoy our rides very much but I can tell you, dropping another $25k to trade up to 2014s is not going to happen unless BRP takes that loss. (we have a pair of 2013 RT-Ses)

[Jeriatric]

I'll start listening to how they want me to waste THEIR money. Till then....ah, never mind. :banghead:

[SpyderAnn01]

While the fires are a terrible thing and someone is likely to get hurt if this goes on, It would be pretty hard to get trapped on a burning bike and not be able to get off and get away. Its not nearly as worrysome to me as a fire prone car. Sure, the loss would be financially large, but its pretty unlikely I would get seriously hurt if my Spyder caught fire. They don't explode without warning. I can say, if mine caught fire, I'd likely not risk any sort of injury to try and put it out. Let it go. Insurance and BRP can fight over who's problem it is.

For now, our 2013s are running great. No thanks to BRP. We enjoy our rides very much but I can tell you, dropping another $25k to trade up to 2014s is not going to happen unless BRP takes that loss. (we have a pair of 2013 RT-Ses)

I must disagree with you. There are plenty of Spyder riders that would have trouble getting off quickly without getting burned. First of all you have to find a place to stop. I was travelling at freeway speed when mine caught fire, lucky for me I was in a construction zone and there was only one lane of traffic with a break down lane. Imagine if I had been in the middle lane of 3 or 4 going CA freeway speed and had to get to the shoulder quickly without getting run over. I think that if you got hit by a vehicle while trying to get to the shoulder to get off your burning Spyder that would also be a bad thing. Or would you suggest just stopping in the lane and jumping off and risking getting hit by traffic? That thought scared the you know what out of me. How about people riding 2 up? Or our enabled riders? Those with bad hips and knees, those with handicapped tags? If you consider a few seconds of smoke "not exploding without warning" then you certainly don't have anything to worry about.

I'm happy that you aren't worried and that you will be safe in the event of a fire. Let's just hope that everyone will be that lucky.

[jcthorne]

I must disagree with you. There are plenty of Spyder riders that would have trouble getting off quickly without getting burned. First of all you have to find a place to stop. I was travelling at freeway speed when mine caught fire, lucky for me I was in a construction zone and there was only one lane of traffic with a break down lane. Imagine if I had been in the middle lane of 3 or 4 going CA freeway speed and had to get to the shoulder quickly without getting run over. I think that if you got hit by a vehicle while trying to get to the shoulder to get off your burning Spyder that would also be a bad thing. Or would you suggest just stopping in the lane and jumping off and risking getting hit by traffic? That thought scared the you know what out of me. How about people riding 2 up? Or our enabled riders? Those with bad hips and knees, those with handicapped tags? If you consider a few seconds of smoke "not exploding without warning" then you certainly don't have anything to worry about.

I'm happy that you aren't worried and that you will be safe in the event of a fire. Let's just hope that everyone will be that lucky.


I was looking at it from my perspective, not trying to suggest BRP should not have to fix them. They must and I do agree many would have more problems and take longer to pull over and get off than I would. I suppose I was trying to respond to the folks suggesting I give up and trade the bikes in. We are riding our 13s, they are doing OK while waiting on an update. Not parked and not going to let the fire danger keep us from riding. Also not going to fork out $25,000 to fix BRPs mistakes. They WILL fix these or buy them back.

Or insurance will buy me a replacement if our indeed do succumb to fire. But that is not likely with our revisions.

[wyliec]

I must disagree with you. There are plenty of Spyder riders that would have trouble getting off quickly without getting burned. First of all you have to find a place to stop. I was travelling at freeway speed when mine caught fire, lucky for me I was in a construction zone and there was only one lane of traffic with a break down lane. Imagine if I had been in the middle lane of 3 or 4 going CA freeway speed and had to get to the shoulder quickly without getting run over. I think that if you got hit by a vehicle while trying to get to the shoulder to get off your burning Spyder that would also be a bad thing. Or would you suggest just stopping in the lane and jumping off and risking getting hit by traffic? That thought scared the you know what out of me. How about people riding 2 up? Or our enabled riders? Those with bad hips and knees, those with handicapped tags? If you consider a few seconds of smoke "not exploding without warning" then you certainly don't have anything to worry about.

I'm happy that you aren't worried and that you will be safe in the event of a fire. Let's just hope that everyone will be that lucky.


I was looking at it from my perspective, not trying to suggest BRP should not have to fix them. They must and I do agree many would have more problems and take longer to pull over and get off than I would. I suppose I was trying to respond to the folks suggesting I give up and trade the bikes in. We are riding our 13s, they are doing OK while waiting on an update. Not parked and not going to let the fire danger keep us from riding. Also not going to fork out $25,000 to fix BRPs mistakes. They WILL fix these or buy them back.

Or insurance will buy me a replacement if our indeed do succumb to fire. But that is not likely with our revisions.

Both are excellent posts. Thank you.

[hchays]

The sad part is that all the people that took the hit and traded their 2013 in on a 2014 will more than likely get no money back from BRP. So now they enjoy the ride of a $35,000-$40,000 Spyder. At least it helped BRP see what people are willing to spend on a Spyder! Unless prices change (for the better) I believe I'm a one and done with purchasing a new Spyder.

[SpyderAnn01]

The sad part is that all the people that took the hit and traded their 2013 in on a 2014 will more than likely get no money back from BRP. So now they enjoy the ride of a $35,000-$40,000 Spyder. At least it helped BRP see what people are willing to spend on a Spyder! Unless prices change (for the better) I believe I'm a one and done with purchasing a new Spyder.

Agreed.

[MikeinGA]

The sad part is that all the people that took the hit and traded their 2013 in on a 2014 will more than likely get no money back from BRP. So now they enjoy the ride of a $35,000-$40,000 Spyder. At least it helped BRP see what people are willing to spend on a Spyder! Unless prices change (for the better) I believe I'm a one and done with purchasing a new Spyder.


Agreed.

I agree I have a 2011 RS-S SE5 from July 2011 after about 2 1/2 years it started to have problems. That's not bad, the bad part is it a long lead time on parts. My Spyder was a the dealers from 9/30/2014 to 11/29/2014 due to parts. The tech went through 2 TCM modules, 3 transmission sensors, and a shifter paddle, so it took a about a week to get the parts from BRP. That's why Spyders have a poor ratting of keeping Spyders on the road. BRP does not care once you drive off lot and they have your money. I don't think there worth $20,000 to $30,000. I have to 2016 on my Warranty, after that I strip it down for parts. I will not buy another Spyder.
That's IMHO.

Mike

[soreknuckles]

Well, I for one know of ONE sale that all this comedy has cost. My wife was all set to pull the trigger on an RT but has since backed off. I for one don't want her riding a vehicle that may or may not make it home. I had a '57 HD that was a pos and I don't need another. I also don't want my garage burned down, my house burned down, or anything else burned down. I do not want anyone in my family or anyone else hurt. I do not want a machine that spends more time at a dealer who may or may not have any idea what he is doing. I do not want to purchase a machine from a company who may not come out of this debacle. This is not "bashing" anyone or any company, but to release a machine like this on the public needs some answers. I feel for the guys that are having problems. If I paid what they get for these things and had the problems, I would be p.o.ed too. For some, riding is not just a "hobby" either. I am sure there have been many folks who have changed their minds about a purchase.

[ivanlee]

:agree:
I agree I have a 2011 RS-S SE5 from July 2011 after about 2 1/2 years it started to have problems. That's not bad, the bad part is it a long lead time on parts. My Spyder was a the dealers from 9/30/2014 to 11/29/2014 due to parts. The tech went through 2 TCM modules, 3 transmission sensors, and a shifter paddle, so it took a about a week to get the parts from BRP. That's why Spyders have a poor ratting of keeping Spyders on the road. BRP does not care once you drive off lot and they have your money. I don't think there worth $20,000 to $30,000. I have to 2016 on my Warranty, after that I strip it down for parts. I will not buy another Spyder.
That's IMHO.

Mike
:agree: I have a 2008 PE #301 purchased in November 2007, that will be stripped down and sold for parts next year. Have had gas smell from day one , dps &Heating issues I have never trusted it on the road.

[chuck gross]

I agree I have a 2011 RS-S SE5 from July 2011 after about 2 1/2 years it started to have problems. That's not bad, the bad part is it a long lead time on parts. My Spyder was a the dealers from 9/30/2014 to 11/29/2014 due to parts. The tech went through 2 TCM modules, 3 transmission sensors, and a shifter paddle, so it took a about a week to get the parts from BRP. That's why Spyders have a poor ratting of keeping Spyders on the road. BRP does not care once you drive off lot and they have your money. I don't think there worth $20,000 to $30,000. I have to 2016 on my Warranty, after that I strip it down for parts. I will not buy another Spyder.
That's IMHO.

Mike

:agree: My 2013 STL was in the shop for about 2 months last April to June to fix the stalling issue that had eluded my mechanic since I bought it in May of 2013 first they thought it might be transmission/clutch plate related as it always shuttered when in reverse since new
so they fixed that and asked if they could keep it to ride a few times and make sure the stalling was gone I was completely ok because I wanted it fixed as bad as they did that fixed the shuddering but not the stalling so per direction of BRP they replaced the spark plugs and wires purge valve for the second time kept it to test drive, that didn't fix it so then they replaced the throttle body, kept it to test drive and finally no more stalling I was extremely happy with the results as it never ran so dang good wow totally worth the wait I have put about 4K on since with no issues but it does scare me when the extended warranty runs out if I can afford to keep it running I am hoping they have worked all the bugs out and none of these were heat related and with any luck BRP will come up with a good solution to the heat and gas fume issue I do have to say the heat is better with the air scoop panels except in stop and go traffic or really hot weather. I love ryding my STL and am pulling for BRP to help fix all the issues for everyones benefit.

[DrewNJ]

..

[Yazz]

Well, I for one know of ONE sale that all this comedy has cost. My wife was all set to pull the trigger on an RT but has since backed off. I for one don't want her riding a vehicle that may or may not make it home. I had a '57 HD that was a pos and I don't need another. I also don't want my garage burned down, my house burned down, or anything else burned down. I do not want anyone in my family or anyone else hurt. I do not want a machine that spends more time at a dealer who may or may not have any idea what he is doing. I do not want to purchase a machine from a company who may not come out of this debacle. This is not "bashing" anyone or any company, but to release a machine like this on the public needs some answers. I feel for the guys that are having problems. If I paid what they get for these things and had the problems, I would be p.o.ed too. For some, riding is not just a "hobby" either. I am sure there have been many folks who have changed their minds about a purchase.

No, riding is not a 'hobby' for me either. Riding a '09 GS that has had no problems.

Don't know why you're comparing a '57 HD with what ever year, except a '13 RT, that your beloved wants to buy. Don't know when you bought the '57, but the older the bike, the more TLC/mechanical skills you need. Rebuilding a '98 HD evo carburetor as we speak.

Feel sorry for you wife...

[DrewNJ]

No, riding is not a 'hobby' for me either. Riding a '09 GS that has had no problems.

Don't know why you're comparing a '57 HD with what ever year, except a '13 RT, that your beloved wants to buy. Don't know when you bought the '57, but the older the bike, the more TLC/mechanical skills you need. Rebuilding a '98 HD evo carburetor as we speak.

Feel sorry for you wife...
Not a hobby? What is it then? Are you paid to ride a spyder? Or are you required to ride a spyder?

[cuznjohn]

lets see if you understand this,,, i ride to live BUT i don't live to ride,,,does that make sense

[wyliec]

lets see if you understand this,,, i ride to live BUT i don't live to ride,,,does that make sense

I hate to say this; but, Drew has/wins this one.

And, DrewNJ is my hobby. I don't get paid to read his posts, and they're not required reading; but, I enjoy the hell out of his argumentative stance, in my leisure time.

DrewNJ, does that pretty much cover it?

[DrewNJ]

The majority of us ride our spyders for the same reason. Its something we enjoy, that also distracts us from some of the aggravations in life that we don't enjoy so much.
However, when the hobby (yes, hobby) becomes part of the aggravation that its supposed to be distracting us from, then that's when its time to find a new hobby.
And I have to say, there are some VERY miserable folks on here right now. Maybe its time to cut loose and move on for some??

[DrewNJ]

I hate to say this; but, Drew has/wins this one.

And, DrewNJ is my hobby. I don't get paid to read his posts, and they're not required reading; but, I enjoy the hell out of his argumentative stance, in my leisure time.

DrewNJ, does that pretty much cover it?
glad I'm able to entertain....[emoji13] [emoji106]

[chuck gross]

The majority of us ride our spyders for the same reason. Its something we enjoy, that also distracts us from some of the aggravations in life that we don't enjoy so much.
However, when the hobby (yes, hobby) becomes part of the aggravation that its supposed to be distracting us from, then that's when its time to find a new hobby.
And I have to say, there are some VERY miserable folks on here right now. Maybe its time to cut loose and move on for some??

I think everyone has a right to post what they want after all you don't have to read it either, I don't agree with everything that is said on here but I don't feel the need to try to rub their nose in it if I don't agree with what they are saying after all misery loves company

[DrewNJ]

I think everyone has a right to post what they want after all you don't have to read it either, I don't agree with everything that is said on here but I don't feel the need to try to rub their nose in it if I don't agree with what they are saying after all misery loves company
I agree 100%!

[PMK]

The majority of us ride our spyders for the same reason. Its something we enjoy, that also distracts us from some of the aggravations in life that we don't enjoy so much.
However, when the hobby (yes, hobby) becomes part of the aggravation that its supposed to be distracting us from, then that's when its time to find a new hobby.
And I have to say, there are some VERY miserable folks on here right now. Maybe its time to cut loose and move on for some??

I will agree, some but not all are just miserable.

As mentioned, it is a hobby, people, life is short and you should do your best to have fun. If the Spyder as is doesn't do it, then make a change. Change is to either make the proper mods, or find something better to ride, lastly find a non moto hobby and enjoy that.

If your hobby is just complaining, being negative and closed minded, some people here are living the dream.

I certainly hope BRP brings you good news. Just realize, it may not be the fumes and fire killing you, the mental anguish is doing rather well in that department.

PK

[soreknuckles]

I guess it's hard for some to understand, but some folks ride motorcycles and spyders as their main form of transportation, weather permitting. Riding to work or calling on customers is not a "hobby". I'm sorry you can't get that. I'm glad to see how some of you act when you disagree.....I'm gone.........

[Bob Denman]

Not a hobby? What is it then? Are you paid to ride a spyder? Or are you required to ride a spyder?
What to you; is just a "Hobby"...;)

...May just be a "Way of Life"; to others... :2thumbs: