Elio financials..!!

[Chupaca]

so if you look at the financials released by Paul Elio...do you think they will make it. Keep seeing folks placing orders...:dontknow:

http://gas2.org/2013/08/16/financials-show-that-elio-motors-is-really-probably-not-gonna-happen/

[Bob Denman]

What was it, that P.T. Barnum said? :dontknow:
I wouldn't rule them out just yet; they seem to have enough lives; to make an entire litter of kittens jealous!
Time will tell...

[bluestratos]

Me thinks this stinks, lol.., look at the advertising cost/budget. I would love to see them succeed but......

[BajaRon]

Looks like, if you have sent them money, it might be a good time to see if you can get it back. Good luck to all you brave 'Donaters' out there. Hope he can pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Unlike Bullwinkle, he'll probably get just 1 chance....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRW7pITY5Cg&feature=kp

[MarkLawson]

I don't know.

From scanning through the article, the first thing I saw was the tone of the article, which suggests the writer is not onboard. I'm fine with that, as long as it is kept professional. This piece was not professional, even if it was accurate, about which I have no clue. It could also mean that the writer is actively against the success of Elio. If that is the case, then I would think caution is needed while reading it.

Again, I don't know.

[Dan_Ashley]

I hate it when people get taken.

I like to to buy things that actually exist.

I would be surprised if anyone gets any money back. After all, did they not get a t shirt? A bankruptcy judge would probably rule that they received value, however minimal, for the $100 that was paid.

I don't care if a rich tycoon gets taken for $100, but lots of people who sent in money are not rich.

[Lamonster]

I don't know.

From scanning through the article, the first thing I saw was the tone of the article, which suggests the writer is not onboard. I'm fine with that, as long as it is kept professional. This piece was not professional, even if it was accurate, about which I have no clue. It could also mean that the writer is actively against the success of Elio. If that is the case, then I would think caution is needed while reading it.

Again, I don't know.

Caution should have been taken before handing your hard earned cash over to a company that was selling something to good to be true.

[Dan_Ashley]

Caution should have been taken before handing your hard earned cash over to a company that was selling something to good to be true.
....but, .... They ARE selling underware!

[MouthPiece]

It's called "risk takers". This country used to have a bunch of them. I don't know now in today's day and age. Too much "guvment" BS.

Chris

[Texas]

The primary reason the company takes the deposits isn't to reserve your vehicle; instead, it's to provide supporting documentation when trying to get financing. Unfortunately, there have been several companies that have unsuccessfully tried this in the past. The reason is because of the type of vehicle they are trying to bring to market. It's a 3-wheeled 'enclosed' vehicle. The book is still being written on the safety requirements for this vehicle. I'm guessing they're also trying to get funding under the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program, which is extremely difficult to achieve. I love the idea that I could start seeing these vehicles on the road; and I would even consider buying one of them after a safe period of time. Unfortunately, they most likely won't be able to get the vehicles to a consumer's garage due to the inability to secure financing, either from the government, or privately.

If I had a deposit with this company, I would immediately ask for a refund. Then, once the first vehicle lands on the showroom floor, give them a deposit if that is what they require. Otherwise, you may very well find yourself $500 poorer.

[Dan_Ashley]

The primary reason the company takes the deposits isn't to reserve your vehicle; instead, it's to provide supporting documentation when trying to get financing. Unfortunately, there have been several companies that have unsuccessfully tried this in the past. The reason is because of the type of vehicle they are trying to bring to market. It's a 3-wheeled 'enclosed' vehicle. The book is still being written on the safety requirements for this vehicle. I'm guessing they're also trying to get funding under the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program, which is extremely difficult to achieve. I love the idea that I could start seeing these vehicles on the road; and I would even consider buying one of them after a safe period of time. Unfortunately, they most likely won't be able to get the vehicles to a consumer's garage due to the inability to secure financing, either from the government, or privately.

If I had a deposit with this company, I would immediately ask for a refund. Then, once the first vehicle lands on the showroom floor, give them a deposit if that is what they require. Otherwise, you may very well find yourself $500 poorer.
What you describe is exactly what killed Apterra. And the Apterra was a lot cuter!

[MarkLawson]

Caution should have been taken before handing your hard earned cash over to a company that was selling something to good to be true.

Absolutely! As I have no investments tied to Elio, I have no dog in this fight. It is interesting & I would like to see them succeed. My concerns are about the article. As written, I can't see any neutrality in the writer. As such, it lacks credibility in my mind. Not saying he is wrong, but can't say I'm confident in what was written.

[Bob Denman]

What you describe is exactly what killed Apterra. And the Apterra was a lot cuter!

90352
I do think that I agree with you... :D :thumbup:

[BikerDoc]

I hate it when people get taken.

I like to to buy things that actually exist.

I would be surprised if anyone gets any money back. After all, did they not get a t shirt? A bankruptcy judge would probably rule that they received value, however minimal, for the $100 that was paid.

I don't care if a rich tycoon gets taken for $100, but lots of people who sent in money are not rich.
Some folks put up 1000 instead of 100 for a better place in line. I guess that means they will see their money burning more clearly

[BajaRon]

I don't know.

From scanning through the article, the first thing I saw was the tone of the article, which suggests the writer is not onboard. I'm fine with that, as long as it is kept professional. This piece was not professional, even if it was accurate, about which I have no clue. It could also mean that the writer is actively against the success of Elio. If that is the case, then I would think caution is needed while reading it.

Again, I don't know.

I understand what you are saying and my feeling is that you can take this 2 different ways.

1- The guy doesn't like the product, the promoter, or is just having a bad day.

OR

2- The guy doesn't really care one way or the other but knows this promoter, knows where this is headed and is a bit angry that people are being taken.

But as you say, bottom line it isn't so important what the writer's motivation is as it is whether the information is true or not. If the financial projection document sited was generated by the company, then I'd say the 'Writing is on the wall' and I'd be trying to get my money back.

For my part I hope it goes well and everyone is happy. But my position has zero effect on the outcome.

[Bob Denman]

Some folks put up 1000 instead of 100 for a better place in line. I guess that means they will see their money burning more clearly

90358

[ARtraveler]

I have looked at these before thanks to some information from another SL member.

These are the least informative and non-GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) statements that I have seen.

They are actually pro-forma--(As If) and are based on predictions. A beautiful rendition of "smoke and mirrors" with a lot of things left out. Caveat Emptor

What we would really like to see is the "real thing."

I teach accounting and am a CPA.

[Woodsrider]

I gave 'em 100 back in...um...2011 I think, when they did first round. A nice logo'd T-shirt these days is $20 plus ship, I got that, a bumper sticker, and a few years of entertainment.

I don't expect to ever see an Elio, especially since the 'limited' time offer to put a deposit in and get a place in line has been running 3 years. If you put $500 in today, you're ahead of anyone who put in $100, at any time.

They announced several production dates, and they had one that was only a few months away at the time and got a lot of suckers to toss in $1k non-refundable to get their reservation number in stone. Only to push back the date, and push back the date.

I really can't think this is anything but a long scam.

[Dan_Ashley]

I found a good pro-forma spreadsheet for Elio Motors: http://forward-now.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Elio-Motors-Financials.xls

How can I post this on Spyderlovers? But here it is, I am going to start reviewing it now.

Edit: the first thing I noticed is that they expect to sell 250,000 units per year. That is 25% more than all Harley's sold per year in the US, and it represents about 56% of the entire US motorcycle market. The Toyota Prius sold 186,000 vehicles in 2008. I have not yet found more recent sales numbers for the Prius. Never-the-less, 250,000 Elio cars seems to me to be a very aggressive estimate.

[SNOOPY]

Caution should have been taken before handing your hard earned cash over to a company that was selling something to good to be true.


Unfortunately happens too often anymore. :(

[Rando]

Take the Elio debate to the Elio forums. There are a bunch. Just do a Google search. The most active one is: http://www.elioowners.com

[ivanlee]

I hate it when people get taken.

I like to to buy things that actually exist.

I would be surprised if anyone gets any money back. After all, did they not get a t shirt? A bankruptcy judge would probably rule that they received value, however minimal, for the $100 that was paid.

I don't care if a rich tycoon gets taken for $100, but lots of people who sent in money are not rich.

lll

[Chupaca]

I put a $1,000.00 up front for a 2008 Spyder GS, I feel I was taken for $ 15,000. Overheating , steering, problems. No BRP customer support, Accessories and parts priced to high, Some dealers Ripping customer's off.
When I get the ELIO I will gave you one guess where the CAN AM SPYDER IS GOING.:bdh:

But you did get a roadster and if you still have it have been ryding it for about five years. It may not be all you thought it would be but you have to admit it is better than a tee shirt and a bumper sticker...oh and how long did you have to wait..?? :roflblack:

[SNOOPY]

Take the Elio debate to the Elio forums. There are a bunch. Just do a Google search. The most active one is: http://www.elioowners.com


Wow


.

[SNOOPY]

I put a $1,000.00 up front for a 2008 Spyder GS, I feel I was taken for $ 15,000. Overheating , steering, problems. No BRP customer support, Accessories and parts priced to high, Some dealers Ripping customer's off.
When I get the ELIO I will gave you one guess where the CAN AM SPYDER IS GOING.:bdh:


Wow


..

[Dan_Ashley]

Wow


..it takes all kinds...I just ignore some of them.

[ivanlee]

But you did get a roadster and if you still have it have been ryding it for about five years. It may not be all you thought it would be but you have to admit it is better than a tee shirt and a bumper sticker...oh and how long did you have to wait..?? :roflblack:

Ll

[Dan_Ashley]

6 1/2 years, waited 9 months, has never been ridden more than 100 miles from home, never have trusted it, yes I :roflblack:
All the time what a sucker I was investing over $26,000 in this spyder , You learn with experience and stop buying the product from BRP that has no customer service, fighting for warranty, overheating problem, steering, and gas smell,
So keep buying the spyder and supporting a company that could care less about customer's.:roflblack:
I am very happy with my ride. It is 100% excellent. But this thread is about Elio. Let's try to stick to that.

[SNOOPY]

6 1/2 years, waited 9 months, has never been ridden more than 100 miles from home, never have trusted it, yes I :roflblack:
All the time what a sucker I was investing over $26,000 in this spyder , You learn with experience and stop buying the product from BRP that has no customer service, fighting for warranty, overheating problem, steering, and gas smell,
So keep buying the spyder and supporting a company that could care less about customer's.:roflblack:

I find this interesting.

Do you still have it? Why?

If not, why you still on a Spyder forum?

.

[msj4848]

Take the Elio debate to the Elio forums. There are a bunch. Just do a Google search. The most active one is: http://www.elioowners.com

I wonder how many elio owners there are on elioowners.com...:clap:

[Dan_Ashley]

I wonder how many elio owners there are on elioowners.com...:clap:
I don't know how many prototypes that were constructed. Do you?

[msj4848]

6 1/2 years, waited 9 months, has never been ridden more than 100 miles from home, never have trusted it, yes I :roflblack:
All the time what a sucker I was investing over $26,000 in this spyder , You learn with experience and stop buying the product from BRP that has no customer service, fighting for warranty, overheating problem, steering, and gas smell,
So keep buying the spyder and supporting a company that could care less about customer's.:roflblack:

How did you go from being taken for 15k to investing over 26k? 9 grand in mods would make for a pretty dope spyder!

[msj4848]

I don't know how many prototypes that were constructed. Do you?

I think we all know that legitimate, useful information concerning elios is hard to come by.

[Dan_Ashley]

I think we all know that legitimate, useful information concerning elios is hard to come by.
No kidding. That is one reason I posted the link in post above with the pro formas.

[ivanlee]

How did you go from being taken for 15k to investing over 26k? 9 grand in mods would make for a pretty dope spyder!
Ll

[msj4848]

Farkle-licious!

[Chupaca]

$9,000 plus

If the recall work was done on the dps your steering should not have been a problem. Your heating issue may have something to do with all the work done. I see were the added expense comes in and if or when you get your Elio let me know where your going to toss your 08. :roflblack::roflblack: I ryde with a lot of them some with better than 75,000 and no problems...yours would make a good show bike..:thumbup:

[Rando]

I wonder how many elio owners there are on elioowners.com...:clap:At least one.

[Dan_Ashley]

At least one.
Do you think Mr. Elio owns the prototype and is also on that forum?

[ARtraveler]

6 1/2 years, waited 9 months, has never been ridden more than 100 miles from home, never have trusted it, yes I :roflblack:
All the time what a sucker I was investing over $26,000 in this spyder , You learn with experience and stop buying the product from BRP that has no customer service, fighting for warranty, overheating problem, steering, and gas smell,
So keep buying the spyder and supporting a company that could care less about customer's.:roflblack:

MORE HIJACK:
Sorry. This thread is about Elio--not another rant on the :spyder2:.

Speaking of money--I have over $100K invested in :spyder2: and I am a VERY HAPPY SPYDER OWNER. Sorry for the yelling--but I think it was needed here. Lets go back to the Elio thread.

PS: I will match my 2 Spyders with $6K in accessories each, to your $9K. Both of these vehicles are still on the road and have very happy owners.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20864&thumb=1&d=1311885595
UN-HIJACK:

[Bob Denman]

:agree: This is where we're questioning the possibility of Elio being able to deliver on their promises...
If you're afraid to ride your bike because something bad MIGHT happen... :dontknow: :roflblack:

[crazyspyder]

I love my spyder RT and drive it daily rain or shine. but, I also like to keep an open mind about new and greater possibilities. I hope that the ELIO takes root and becomes a stepping stone to our gas crises. I hear HARLEY
has a all new electric model coming out as well. dont know why our society has to be so dependent on oil and gas, its a hard process but we need to be weaned from it. :thumbup:

[ahh-cool]

I put up $100 for a deposit. Here's my thinking, after doing some research on it I believe he was being truthful, as far as delivering a very economical car.
I figured it was worth the risk. If he can deliver it and it's not a piece of crap it could be very beneficial for this country.
If he fails I want to believe he really believed he could do it, and for that alone it is worth $100 to me
Stefan

[Bob Denman]

That is a VERY reasonable outlook... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_55.gif
Give them a chance, and let's all see what happens.

[kawakii]

I put up $100 for a deposit. Here's my thinking, after doing some research on it I believe he was being truthful, as far as delivering a very economical car.
I figured it was worth the risk. If he can deliver it and it's not a piece of crap it could be very beneficial for this country.
If he fails I want to believe he really believed he could do it, and for that alone it is worth $100 to me
Stefan

I love this answer and it's exactly how I feel about the Elio company. Sometimes taking a small risk if you can afford it in hopes it may change our country for the better is worth the risk.

I'd love an Elio but it'd have to be a summer/ fall vehicle - can't see it doing too well in our NH winter weather.

[bullant12]

I agree with Dan Ashley. I am not putting a dime until I see a finished product. The idea of placing a deposit for a company that doesn't even have a single product to prove how reliable they are, is a risk itself. Numbers are like scriptures, everybody can read them, and interpret them as they see them. You can change the numbers all you want, but until the product is not out there and prove to the rest of the world this is what is going to change our views, the idea of a $6,800 vehicle getting 84 MPG is still to be seen, no matter how much the CEO can go out there and show us prototype(s).

This is just my opinion. Hopefully those that gave the big deposits will get their product and be happy. I can wait a few years while the Elio takes it's growing pain years out of the way... in the meantime my garage is full as it is.

[Dan_Ashley]

I agree with Dan Ashley. I am not putting a dime until I see a finished product. The idea of placing a deposit for a company that doesn't even have a single product to prove how reliable they are, is a risk itself. Numbers are like scriptures, everybody can read them, and interpret them as they see them. You can change the numbers all you want, but until the product is not out there and prove to the rest of the world this is what is going to change our views, the idea of a $6,800 vehicle getting 84 MPG is still to be seen, no matter how much the CEO can go out there and show us prototype(s).

This is just my opinion. Hopefully those that gave the big deposits will get their product and be happy. I can wait a few years while the Elio takes it's growing pain years out of the way... in the meantime my garage is full as it is.I hope it works out too. I think a three wheel car that is a lot less expensive than the T-Rex would be fun! I also hope nobody sends in $100 (or more) if they can't afford to lose it.

[lonestarmedic]

The concept is ggod, the design makes sense. Been following it for about 4 years. Always the same mass e-mailing of a bright future and send us money to reserve a car. I have no money invested. Bring a few prototypes on a U.S. tour so I can see one and see it run. Clay models are cool. I did Play -Do modelling as a kid.

JB

[Rando]

Bring a few prototypes on a U.S. tour so I can see one and see it run.JBJul 04, 2014 - Jul 06, 2014 Tacoma, WA Freedom Festival Stay tuned for times and locations!
Jul 11, 2014 - Jul 13, 2014 Portland, OR Area Mall. Stay tuned for detailsMall Hours
Jul 18, 2014 - Jul 20, 2014 San Francisco Bay Area Mall. Stay tuned for detailsMall Hours
Jul 25, 2014 - Aug 10, 2014 Los Angeles, CA Stay tuned for details
Aug 16, 2014 - Aug 17, 2014 Metropolitan Detroit, MI Woodward Dream CruiseStay tuned for details
Aug 22, 2014 - Aug 24, 2014 Birmingham, AL Mall Event. Stay tuned for details.Mall Hours
Aug 29, 2014 - Aug 31, 2014 New Orleans, LA Mall Event. Stay tuned for details.Mall Hours
Sep 26, 2014 - Oct 01, 2014 Dallas, TX Texas State Fair.Stay tuned for details
Oct 04, 2014 - Oct 12, 2014 Albuquerque, NM. BALLOON FIESTA!!!Stay tuned for details
Oct 17, 2014 - Oct 19, 2014 Rome, GA Wings Over North Georgia Airshow.Stay tuned for details!
Oct 30, 2014 - Nov 03, 2014 Ft. Lauderdale, FLFt. Lauderdale International Boat Show.Show Hours

[PatGund]

I don't know.

From scanning through the article, the first thing I saw was the tone of the article, which suggests the writer is not onboard. I'm fine with that, as long as it is kept professional. This piece was not professional, even if it was accurate, about which I have no clue. It could also mean that the writer is actively against the success of Elio. If that is the case, then I would think caution is needed while reading it.

Again, I don't know.

If you look at anything Jo Borras has written about the Elio, (or small cars in general), you'll find he's not exactly a fan........

[Dan_Ashley]

If you look at anything Jo Borras has written about the Elio, (or small cars in general), you'll find he's not exactly a fan........
That us why I posted a link to his alleged data source in post #19. You can download the spreadsheet and decide for yourself. If you do that, as you read through it ask yourself whether the assumptions make sense.

For example, is there a market for 250,000 Elios every year. This represents 46% of the entire US motorcycle market, and more (I think--needs verification) than the entire annual VW sales.

Then ask yourself if there is sufficient costs allocated to advertising and selling. What is the % cost of sales for GM, Ford? Would Elio be less because it is smaller, would Elio be greater on a % basis because it is new?

Then look at at the executive salaries. I am not convinced you can buy executive talent for the costs listed. If that were just salary, without bonuses or benefits then maybe...but those are fully costed items.

Then look at other items. There are lots of things in there to discuss.

Look at it and decide if the probability of achieving ALL those cost points is realistic.

I am of the opinion that the reason they can't get financing is because of what I pointed out here--but maybe I'm wrong....

[dndfindley]

Take the Elio debate to the Elio forums. There are a bunch. Just do a Google search. The most active one is: http://www.elioowners.com

Are you now the censor? Are you the one who decides what we can or cannot talk about? I haven't posted about the Elio nor did I intend to but after I read your post I had to.

[SNOOPY]

That us why I posted a link to his alleged data source in post #19. You can download the spreadsheet and decide for yourself. If you do that, as you read through it ask yourself whether the assumptions make sense.

For example, is there a market for 250,000 Elios every year. This represents 46% of the entire US motorcycle market, and more (I think--needs verification) than the entire annual VW sales.

Then ask yourself if there is sufficient costs allocated to advertising and selling. What is the % cost of sales for GM, Ford? Would Elio be less because it is smaller, would Elio be greater on a % basis because it is new?

Then look at at the executive salaries. I am not convinced you can buy executive talent for the costs listed. If that were just salary, without bonuses or benefits then maybe...but those are fully costed items.

Then look at other items. There are lots of things in there to discuss.

Look at it and decide if the probability of achieving ALL those cost points is realistic.

I am of the opinion that the reason they can't get financing is because of what I pointed out here--but maybe I'm wrong....


You forgot to factor in a good dose of greed. :popcorn:


.

[wyliec]

Are you now the censor? Are you the one who decides what we can or cannot talk about? I haven't posted about the Elio nor did I intend to but after I read your post I had to.

Actually, Lamont had said previously to post on the Elio forum, and he was directing that comment to Rando, because he was making so many Elio posts. I believe that was the reason for Rando's comment.

Just in case you're sort of new here, Lamont had made that comment awhile ago; but, it appears quite a few members missed it.

[DrewNJ]

Hmmm....what a novel business plan to sell $100+ t-shirts.....

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk

[Bob Denman]

Actually, Lamont had said previously to post on the Elio forum, and he was directing that comment to Rando, because he was making so many Elio posts. I believe that was the reason for Rando's comment.

Just in case you're sort of new here, Lamont had made that comment awhile ago; but, it appears quite a few members missed it.

:agree: He caught some grief... :shocked:

It's a fine line between reporting something newworthy, and being perceived as having an agenda... :yikes:
I don't know where he falls in this one; but he's certainly been following the directions that were given about it! :thumbup:
So please; cut him some slack...

[StanProff]

Well,, gotta say a word or two. I think it is a good concept. It is not competition for Spyders or conventional 3 wheelers. I wish them well and hope it goes to market and is a success. Seems some make fun of people who throw a deposit on it, I haven't nor do I intend to. But hey, I've wasted much more on scratch-off's. I guarantee I waste much more on my pilgrimage to Sam's every few weeks and end up spending a couple of hundred on a lot of stuff I don't really need :D. I don't think it does any good to be negative about something or belittle folks just because they feel something is worth a shot. After all, the folks that want to take a chance on something don't need my or anyone Else's permission to take that chance. Heck, I lost quite a few thousand dollars a few years ago to try and bring a product to market that I believed in, I didn't even get my wife's permission on that one, :lecturef_smilie: allthough I wouldn't recommend that :shocked:. Anyway it, is what it is. The Chinese will make it sooner or later. I'd rather see it made here.

[ARtraveler]

You are right and I suppose I have thrown a few sarcastic barbs about the product, not about those who believe in it though.

However, I do think that when someone posts a cheerleader post about something like Elio it is fair game to make counter points.

:agree: x 2. It makes for interesting discussion material and the product is yet to be offered to the public. I have been watching this progress from day one and they have not won me over yet.

[Dan_Ashley]

:agree: x 2. It makes for interesting discussion material and the product is yet to be offered to the public. I have been watching this progress from day one and they have not won me over yet.me too. I just wanted to discuss it. Nothing more.

[jerpinoy]

So if I sent $ 6800 deposit I should get the first Elio made with serial number 000,0001 this is first out 250,000 unit.:yes::yes::yes::yes: .

[ARtraveler]

So if I sent $ 6800 deposit I should get the first Elio made with serial number 000,0001 this is first out 250,000 unit.:yes::yes::yes::yes: .

Way to go!!!~ Be careful though, we have an ongoing discussion about those GS premier editions, the RT premier editions etc. And yes, maybe Jay Leno has some value to his #1 Spyder. I did not find it helped me on my trade in of #474 though. :roflblack:

[Bob Denman]

:agree: Be careful about getting into a bidding war with Jay Leno... :shocked: :bowdown:

[Spyder Tony]

90352
I do think that I agree with you... :D :thumbup:

Looks like you might get your chance to see the Aptera on the street afterall...maybe.

New company set to resurrect the Aptera automobile:
http://www.gizmag.com/aptera-independent-production-us/27868/

[Bob Denman]

THAT would be outstanding! :D :2thumbs:
Let's hope that they BOTH make it to the market! :thumbup:

[Dan_Ashley]

Looks like you might get your chance to see the Aptera on the street afterall...maybe.

New company set to resurrect the Aptera automobile:
http://www.gizmag.com/aptera-independent-production-us/27868/


The end of the article says this: "The 2g could end up in the US$50,000 to $55,000 price range. According to Deringer, that would put it at about $15,000 to $20,000 more than the Chinese Aptera, but in his words, “it would be a better car.”
that makes the Chineese Aptera about $30,000 or so.

[Bob Denman]

So it'll be in the T-Rex pricing neighborhood... :shocked:
It's STILL pretty dang cool! :2thumbs:

[Dan_Ashley]

So it'll be in the T-Rex pricing neighborhood... :shocked:
It's STILL pretty dang cool! :2thumbs:
"You could buy a car for that much money."

No. Wait. That was the guy at the gas station talking about my Spyder.

[Bob Denman]

Yeah; you sure could! :shocked:
But it'd only be a CAR! :D

[Rando]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/06/24/the-tiny-three-wheel-car-that-could-be-the-next-big-thing/

[Bob Denman]

:D Thanks! :thumbup:

[Dan_Ashley]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/06/24/the-tiny-three-wheel-car-that-could-be-the-next-big-thing/

Here is a quote from the article: "... the 55 horses with which it will roll off the assembly line should suffice, albeit barely... the car’s brakes, which faded faster than a black shirt in a bucket of bleach when asked to bring the car to halt...Ride quality seemed adequate, at least over the well-paved roads to which we had access. While the Elio felt stable at higher speeds, low-speed handling was unpleasantly heavy, given the car’s unfortunate lack of power steering. This would definitely not be our choice for careening around twisty roads, though our biceps could probably stand the workout they’d get..." It also says that the prototype is powered by an old GEO motor, not by the one planned for the production version. The article does not say why that is.

But in all honesty, it is a fairly positively worded article. It does say that Elio Motors was started in 2009. That makes the company 5 years old. It also said the company plans to hire 1,500 workers starting in March, 2015. Or, at least, that is what I understood it to say. I checked the company's web site today. There are no "career opportunities" and no way of submitting resumes on the web site. site.

At a corporate age of five years, it seems odd to me that a company does not have a product, does not have a near-final prototype, does not have any mechanism to attract new human talent, and is still pursuing start-up funding.

Does anyone have any way of knowing how many employees the company has right now?

[ARtraveler]

Here is a quote from the article: "... the 55 horses with which it will roll off the assembly line should suffice, albeit barely... the car’s brakes, which faded faster than a black shirt in a bucket of bleach when asked to bring the car to halt...Ride quality seemed adequate, at least over the well-paved roads to which we had access. While the Elio felt stable at higher speeds, low-speed handling was unpleasantly heavy, given the car’s unfortunate lack of power steering. This would definitely not be our choice for careening around twisty roads, though our biceps could probably stand the workout they’d get..." It also says that the prototype is powered by an old GEO motor, not by the one planned for the production version. The article does not say why that is.

But in all honesty, it is a fairly positively worded article. It does say that Elio Motors was started in 2009. That makes the company 5 years old. It also said the company plans to hire 1,500 workers starting in March, 2015. Or, at least, that is what I understood it to say. I checked the company's web site today. There are no "career opportunities" and no way of submitting resumes on the web site. site.

At a corporate age of five years, it seems odd to me that a company does not have a product, does not have a near-final prototype, does not have any mechanism to attract new human talent, and is still pursuing start-up funding.

Does anyone have any way of knowing how many employees the company has right now?

Also, do the math on just 1500 workers. Figure 30K per year, employer taxes (7.5%), Insurance at $1000 per month or so.

1500 workers at $30,000 = $45,000,000
7.5% employer payroll tax $ 3,375,000
1500 X $12,000 year/health $18,000,000

Minimum Employee Cost $66,375,000

That's a lot of $100 deposits :yikes::yikes:

[Dan_Ashley]

Also, do the math on just 1500 workers. Figure 30K per year, employer taxes (7.5%), Insurance at $1000 per month or so.

1500 workers at $30,000 = $45,000,000
7.5% employer payroll tax $ 3,375,000
1500 X $12,000 year/health $18,000,000

Minimum Employee Cost $66,375,000

That's a lot of $100 deposits :yikes::yikes:The pro-forma I posted a link to in post #19 has a total head count of 400 at full production. Forbes is quoting 1,500.

There must be a reason for this 275% increase in the number of employees being planned. That is a very large increase for a company that has not yet started production.

I wonder what other cost drivers in that pro-forma are no longer current...

[spydaman60]

Also, do the math on just 1500 workers. Figure 30K per year, employer taxes (7.5%), Insurance at $1000 per month or so.

1500 workers at $30,000 = $45,000,000
7.5% employer payroll tax $ 3,375,000
1500 X $12,000 year/health $18,000,000

Minimum Employee Cost $66,375,000

That's a lot of $100 deposits :yikes::yikes:that means about 15,000 or more units have to move off the line before they start making money!:yikes:

[Dan_Ashley]

that means about 15,000 or more units have to move off the line before they start making money!:yikes:

This does not include fixed costs, costs of sales, and so forth.

According to the pro-forma in post 19, they don't go positive until they sell about 9,273 units per month. This represents about 111,276 units per year. Note that in 2012, Porsche sold about 120,000 units world wide. Of course there is no comparison between a Porsche and an Elio. It is a lot of cars though. In 2012 VW sold 117,000 Jettas.

[ARtraveler]

This does not include fixed costs, costs of sales, and so forth.

According to the pro-forma in post 19, they don't go positive until they sell about 9,273 units per month. This represents about 111,276 units per year. Note that in 2012, Porsche sold about 120,000 units world wide. Of course there is no comparison between a Porsche and an Elio. It is a lot of cars though. In 2012 VW sold 117,000 Jettas.

Under scrutiny, the Elio numbers just don't add up. Dan is absolutely correct above also. When the "real" costs are added in, the numbers just do not add up. There are some really big fixed costs here that make the employee cost numbers look like cheap stuff. Machinery, Raw Materials/Inventory, Overhead costs, etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on--but accounting numbers can be ad nauseum to most. But--you folks get the idea for sure.

Additional per my employee numbers. Just using Elio's statements. My numbers do not include the Administrative numbers. I bet those people are not going to work for $30K per year. Mr. Elio is not going to do all the work by himself. With 10 upper level people making only $100 K--that's another million. If those people were paid higher (and I am guessing that $100K is :cus: money to most--just do the math again.

The deeper we delve, the scarier it gets.

[Dan_Ashley]

I think this would have made a real good take home mid-term exam for the managerial analysis graduate (MBA) class I used to teach. It would require pulling together concepts from marketing, accounting, finance, production and operations management, and strategic planning. Probably a 10 page paper would be my expectation. Maybe I'll go teach a class as an adjunct/emeritus to see how this would work out.

[ARtraveler]

I think this would have made a real good take home mid-term exam for the managerial analysis graduate (MBA) class I used to teach. It would require pulling together concepts from marketing, accounting, finance, production and operations management, and strategic planning. Probably a 10 page paper would be my expectation. Maybe I'll go teach a class as an adjunct/emeritus to see how this would work out.

Now you have given me a great idea for a term paper for my Managerial Accounting class. A lot could be accomplished as per above. Thank you Dan. :yes::yes:

[spyryder]

I think this would have made a real good take home mid-term exam for the managerial analysis graduate (MBA) class I used to teach. It would require pulling together concepts from marketing, accounting, finance, production and operations management, and strategic planning. Probably a 10 page paper would be my expectation. Maybe I'll go teach a class as an adjunct/emeritus to see how this would work out.

Ok maybe I'm oversimplifying this and I haven't looked at the financials for Elio, but they're selling a Nissan Micra here in Canada for $9998 :yikes: http://www.nissan.ca/en Why wouldn't Elio be able to make a profit seeing as it's about half the size of the Nissan? :dontknow:

[ARtraveler]

Ok maybe I'm oversimplifying this and I haven't looked at the financials for Elio, but they're selling a Nissan Micra here in Canada for $9998 :yikes: http://www.nissan.ca/en Why wouldn't Elio be able to make a profit seeing as it's about half the size of the Nissan? :dontknow:

Nissan has all the manufacturing equipment, dealership network, national reputation, and employees in place. To them, its just another stock keeping unit.

Elio is start up and has nothing in place. Lots of money and other things needed to make this all work.

[Bob Denman]

Simply put:
Half the size; rarely means, half the costs!

[spyryder]

Nissan has all the manufacturing equipment, dealership network, national reputation, and employees in place. To them, its just another stock keeping unit.

Elio is start up and has nothing in place. Lots of money and other things needed to make this all work.

What about the GM plant and all of the equipment which they've secured in Shreveport? That must account for something?

[ARtraveler]

What about the GM plant and all of the equipment which they've secured in Shreveport? That must account for something?

Good point. I am not sure how much actual equipment was left (if any) when GM closed the manufacturing plant. Would guess if there is assembly line equipment in place, that it would require a bunch of re-tooling to be compatible with Elio. We are talking motorcycle (their description) to car here. Could still be a lot of $$$$$$$$ involved. :dontknow:

[Dan_Ashley]

What about the GM plant and all of the equipment which they've secured in Shreveport? That must account for something?
Remember it was a Hum vee plant. The Elio is smaller in stature so Some of the equipment mods that come to mind:

fiberglass molding
robotic NCR welding and programming
powder coating equipment and robotic controls
assembly line conveyors
tire mounting and balancing
crane and lift operations throughout
crating and prep for shipping
fluid (oil, coolant, etc) handling
engine and transmission assembly and mounting
steering linkage robotic programming
Warehousing, racking, binning and inventory control
metal stamping and forming.
staff selection, training and supervision


I am sure there are more. For a production of 250,000 units, running at 76% efficiency (Very high for a start up), running six days a week, 52 weeks a year you get 24 x 60 x .76 = 1,094 production minutes per day. You have to produce 801 cars a day. That means you have to roll a finished car out every minute and 22 seconds. This means probably 20 to 40 production lines are needed to meet the production goals.

Did I point out that this is a start up and there are bound to be design errors in the assembly lines? Also, this is a brand new product from a company with no track record. There are no production level three wheel cars on the road that I am aware of. Neither the Stallion nor the T-Rex is a mass produced vehicle.

If Elio started on a much smaller scale, perhaps by outsourcing most of the manufacturing and fulfillment functions, he could probably be successful at a wholesale price point of $9,000 or so. Then he could gradually ramp up.

...but with their organizational design, product mix, unit volume, price points and corporate goals, I seriously question the viability of this firm. One of my big concerns is the seeming lack of progress over the last five years. There seem to be few, if any, employees; there are no mechanisms for Elio to recruit engineering staff--not even a place where an engineer can email a resume.

So, it seems to me that Elio has overly optimistic financial pro-formas, unsustainably low price points, no discernible staff, and, other than part time board of directors, no executives.

Investment banker will notice these issues. That will affect start up funding.

[spydaman60]

Remember it was a Hum vee plant. The Elio is smaller in stature so Some of the equipment mods that come to mind:

fiberglass molding
robotic NCR welding and programming
powder coating equipment and robotic controls
assembly line conveyors
tire mounting and balancing
crane and lift operations throughout
crating and prep for shipping
fluid (oil, coolant, etc) handling
engine and transmission assembly and mounting
steering linkage robotic programming
Warehousing, racking, binning and inventory control
metal stamping and forming.
staff selection, training and supervision


I am sure there are more. For a production of 250,000 units, running at 76% efficiency (Very high for a start up), running six days a week, 52 weeks a year you get 24 x 60 x .76 = 1,094 production minutes per day. You have to produce 801 cars a day. That means you have to roll a finished car out every minute and 22 seconds. This means probably 20 to 40 production lines are needed to meet the production goals.

Did I point out that this is a start up and there are bound to be design errors in the assembly lines? Also, this is a brand new product from a company with no track record. There are no production level three wheel cars on the road that I am aware of. Neither the Stallion nor the T-Rex is a mass produced vehicle.

If Elio started on a much smaller scale, perhaps by outsourcing most of the manufacturing and fulfillment functions, he could probably be successful at a wholesale price point of $9,000 or so. Then he could gradually ramp up.

...but with their organizational design, product mix, unit volume, price points and corporate goals, I seriously question the viability of this firm. One of my big concerns is the seeming lack of progress over the last five years. There seem to be few, if any, employees; there are no mechanisms for Elio to recruit engineering staff--not even a place where an engineer can email a resume.

So, it seems to me that Elio has overly optimistic financial pro-formas, unsustainably low price points, no discernible staff, and, other than part time board of directors, no executives.

Investment banker will notice these issues. That will affect start up funding.dan, think i'll put a call into "mr. elio" and tell him he better speak to you before he goes any farther!! looks to me like all he'll be going to is jail!! :roflblack::roflblack:

[Dan_Ashley]

dan, think i'll put a call into "mr. elio" and tell him he better speak to you before he goes any farther!! looks to me like all he'll be going to is jail!! :roflblack::roflblack:I don't think what he is doing is criminal. I just think he would benefit from engineering management consulting. Like hiring Parsons Engineering, or Beckham etc. this would not be inexpensive. Planning skills like that will run in the $100,000 range...or more.

[Rando]

I was able to locate a video of the very first Elio prototype test drive. Enjoy!

http://imageevent.com/okbueno/mopic;jsessionid=b80mzkwlu2.eagle_s?p=41&n=1&m=-1&c=10&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

[Bob Denman]

I don't think what he is doing is criminal. I just think he would benefit from engineering management consulting. Like hiring Parsons Engineering, or Beckham etc. this would not be inexpensive. Planning skills like that will run in the $100,000 range...or more.

I would guess that he was being, "Overly optimistic"; for the benefit of prospective investors and customers... :yikes:

I'm still hopin'... :thumbup:

[Papa Jim]

I put up $100 for a deposit. Here's my thinking, after doing some research on it I believe he was being truthful, as far as delivering a very economical car.I figured it was worth the risk. If he can deliver it and it's not a piece of crap it could be very beneficial for this country.If he fails I want to believe he really believed he could do it, and for that alone it is worth $100 to meStefanI couldn't have said it better , finally someone who sees the posibility and is willing to help bring it to pass.

[Dan_Ashley]

I couldn't have said it better , finally someone who sees the posibility and is willing to help bring it to pass.
I think he believed he could have done it too.

[ahh-cool]

I agree with Dan Ashley. I am not putting a dime until I see a finished product. The idea of placing a deposit for a company that doesn't even have a single product to prove how reliable they are, is a risk itself. Numbers are like scriptures, everybody can read them, and interpret them as they see them. You can change the numbers all you want, but until the product is not out there and prove to the rest of the world this is what is going to change our views, the idea of a $6,800 vehicle getting 84 MPG is still to be seen, no matter how much the CEO can go out there and show us prototype(s).

This is just my opinion. Hopefully those that gave the big deposits will get their product and be happy. I can wait a few years while the Elio takes it's growing pain years out of the way... in the meantime my garage is full as it is.
I believe it was 1980 That I purchased my first new car. It was a Chevy Sprint. I don't remember how much I paid but I do remember getting 65 M.P.G.(stick shift)
I gave that car to my sister who lives in N.Y. and she told me how after the snow plows would cover the cars everybody else had to dig their cars out and it would just drive over the snow embankment.
anything is possible you just have to believe
If you can dream it, you can achieve it
Stefan