Results of Amsoil 10W-40 lab test @ 4000 Mi

[ulflyer]

To my surprise the viscosity came back it the low 30w range with a caution from the lab to change oil and filter soonest.

With BRP claiming 9000 miles between oil changes I expected much better results.

This was the second oil change done just before departing for Spyderfest. I've done lots of lab tests on previous '11 Can Am where it too tested about the same. In other words, at 4000 miles the oil is due for an immediate change.

I plan on trying a Motul Blend next to see if the viscosity holds up any better.

[murphybrown]

To my surprise the viscosity came back it the low 30w range with a caution from the lab to change oil and filter soonest.

With BRP claiming 9000 miles between oil changes I expected much better results.

This was the second oil change done just before departing for Spyderfest. I've done lots of lab tests on previous '11 Can Am where it too tested about the same. In other words, at 4000 miles the oil is due for an immediate change.

I plan on trying a Motul Blend next to see if the viscosity holds up any better.

BRP's blend and full synthetic? I am interested in that. Thks

[szohar]

I am surprised from those results.

Did someone with prior to 2014 model did a lab test on Amsoil?

[Jeriatric]

To my surprise the viscosity came back it the low 30w range with a caution from the lab to change oil and filter soonest.

With BRP claiming 9000 miles between oil changes I expected much better results.

This was the second oil change done just before departing for Spyderfest. I've done lots of lab tests on previous '11 Can Am where it too tested about the same. In other words, at 4000 miles the oil is due for an immediate change.

I plan on trying a Motul Blend next to see if the viscosity holds up any better.

4K.....Wow...not good!

Under normal riding conditions?
More town(shifting) than open road(etc)?
Normal ambient temps or?

Just curious.
Jer

[ulflyer]

I am surprised from those results.

Did someone with prior to 2014 model did a lab test on Amsoil?


I did several tests when I had the "11 RT Se with similar results.
Just expected better with the "14 based on BRP's suggested 9000 mi change.

[ulflyer]

4K.....Wow...not good!

Under normal riding conditions?
More town(shifting) than open road(etc)?
Normal ambient temps or?

Just curious.
Jer

Mostly open road, lot of interstate/open road, moderate temps, very little town riding.

[szohar]

When I talked with Amsoil they told me I can double the 4,700 miles on my oil and filters, so I assumed the oil can last 9,000+ miles. I am not sure if someone from Amsoil see those emails.

[ulflyer]

BRP's blend and full synthetic? I am interested in that. Thks

Changed my mind at last minute and ordered full syn Motul 7100. Its a highly rated motorcycle oil and I've been wanting to give it a try. Will also test it at 4K, but that will be well into summer temps when I ride a lot less.

[DrewNJ]

I asked the question awhile back if people were going to do the 9k OCI's and everyone said yes.....
Sorry, but that is way to long IMHO. I don't even run that long in my cars and they run lower rpms and don't have the oil serving double duty with the clutch..just sayin'....

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[Chupaca]

good to know. Although I have an RS and change oil right about 4,000 anyway would be an interesting study on the different brands. We do get a lot of questions on what to use....:thumbup: Thanks..!! :2thumbs:

[SB1]

Changed my mind at last minute and ordered full syn Motul 7100. Its a highly rated motorcycle oil and I've been wanting to give it a try. Will also test it at 4K, but that will be well into summer temps when I ride a lot less.

Looking at the Motul it appears to be rated SM, correct me if I am wrong but is this not discouraged for the clutches?
Could the oil be changed every 4.5k with filters every 9k?

[AbNormy]

wouldn't those results indicate a heavier/thicker viscosity is called for? used to think the 5/30 or even the 10/40 recommendation was just another way for manufacturers to get planned obsolescence in new vehicles till I saw enough cars running that light weight oil in hotter climates and getting lots of trouble free miles..still amazes me it doesn't evaporate in the heat we run them at with catalysts and ethanol...caught my dealer having put 20/50 in mine when i'd always been real careful to run 10/40 amsoil, they swore up and down it wouldn't create a problem...that's when I did my first oil change myself...still think i'll use a quart of 20/50 to 3 of the 10/40 just to use it up during the summer season. But i wonder what effect it would have on the clutches...

[joebryanjr]

I am not an expert on motorcycle oils but I remember when 10W40 was recommended for cars and it was found to be detrimental. The auto manufacturers started recommending against using 10W40 oil.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Looking at the Motul it appears to be rated SM, correct me if I am wrong but is this not discouraged for the clutches?
Could the oil be changed every 4.5k with filters every 9k?

I checked a site selling it and the classification was JASO MA is this what you thought meant " SM " ??????......mikeguyver :thumbup:

[SB1]

I checked a site selling it and the classification was JASO MA is this what you thought meant " SM " ??????......mikeguyver :thumbup:
When I did a search this is what I pulled up, notice under performance - standards. http://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/61288/original/7100_4T_10W-40_(GB).pdf?1362492545

After looking at the owners manual i could NOT find anything that warned against the SM rating. This i all the 2014 manual states.
Engine Oil
Recommended Engine Oil
The same oil is used for the engine,gearbox, clutch, and the Hydraulic Con-trol Module (HCM) on the SE6 model.
Use the XPS 4-STROKE SYNTH.BLEND OIL (SUMMER) (P/N 293 600121) or a 5W40 semi-synthetic (min-imum) or synthetic motorcycle oilmeeting the requirements for API ser-vice SL, SJ, SH, SG or higher classifi-cation. Always check the API servicelabel on the oil container.
NOTICE Do not add any oil addi-tives to the recommended oil. Thismay lead to gearbox and clutch mal-functions.

[jcthorne]

wouldn't those results indicate a heavier/thicker viscosity is called for? used to think the 5/30 or even the 10/40 recommendation was just another way for manufacturers to get planned obsolescence in new vehicles till I saw enough cars running that light weight oil in hotter climates and getting lots of trouble free miles..still amazes me it doesn't evaporate in the heat we run them at with catalysts and ethanol...caught my dealer having put 20/50 in mine when i'd always been real careful to run 10/40 amsoil, they swore up and down it wouldn't create a problem...that's when I did my first oil change myself...still think i'll use a quart of 20/50 to 3 of the 10/40 just to use it up during the summer season. But i wonder what effect it would have on the clutches...


No, those results show the oil being used is not holding up in the engine. It is shearing and wearing out. A better quality oil of the correct weight is called for. Not a heavier weight of the same poor quality.

The warning against SM rated oils does not apply to the 2014s as they do not have the centrifugal clutch. Still as they DO have a wet clutch system, a JASO MA-2 rated oil would be preferred.

I use the Valvoline full synthetic 10w10 motorcycle oil rated JASO MA-2 in mine and Louise Spyders but have not sent off 5k mile oil samples for analysis yet. I can say that the BRP XPS synthetic blend DID NOT hold up for 4600 miles specified on my 2013. It had sheared to a MUCH lighter weight by 3000 miles. That was the last of the XPS my bike will see.

[ulflyer]

Looking at the Motul it appears to be rated SM, correct me if I am wrong but is this not discouraged for the clutches?
Could the oil be changed every 4.5k with filters every 9k?

NO, its been reformulated to API SN, Jaso Ma2. However, a lot of sellers still have stock that is SM, MA. I made sure I ordered from a site that said thiers was the new stuff.

[ulflyer]

No, those results show the oil being used is not holding up in the engine. It is shearing and wearing out. A better quality oil of the correct weight is called for. Not a heavier weight of the same poor quality.

The warning against SM rated oils does not apply to the 2014s as they do not have the centrifugal clutch. Still as they DO have a wet clutch system, a JASO MA-2 rated oil would be preferred.

I use the Valvoline full synthetic 10w10 motorcycle oil rated JASO MA-2 in mine and Louise Spyders but have not sent off 5k mile oil samples for analysis yet. I can say that the BRP XPS synthetic blend DID NOT hold up for 4600 miles specified on my 2013. It had sheared to a MUCH lighter weight by 3000 miles. That was the last of the XPS my bike will see.

You might want to do a test at 3000. I tried a variety of oils in my "11 and Valvoline held up almost, but not quite, as good as Amsoil. Castrol was definitely the worse. I never tried Mobil 1 as it used to be only MA rated....not sure what it is now.

[DrewNJ]

IMHO the key really is just more frequent changes vs what brand name is on the bottle.

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[ulflyer]

IMHO the key really is just more frequent changes vs what brand name is on the bottle.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk

I agree with you about frequency. The point about brands is that some are clearly better than others in terms of how well they hold viscosity.

How often do you change yours?

[MarkLawson]

Agree, my plans are to do the first change between 2k and 2.5k,then each thereafter at 5k. Planning to use Mobil1 moto type.

PK

Search the forum first before switching to Mobil 1. I recall some reports of clutch slippage after switching to it. This would have been 2 or 3 years ago.

[DrewNJ]

I agree with you about frequency. The point about brands is that some are clearly better than others in terms of how well they hold viscosity.

How often do you change yours?

IMHO oil brand is more personal preference. I'm staying with the 3k mile OCI that I have always used on my bikes.
Maybe its overkill, maybe not, but it has always worked for me.

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[sddinnh]

IMHO oil brand is more personal preference. I'm staying with the 3k mile OCI that I have always used on my bikes.
Maybe its overkill, maybe not, but it has always worked for me.

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I think I agree with this, especially since the oil is common to both the trans and the engine. IMHO it's the transmission gears that really beat up on the oil, not the engine.

[Jeriatric]

Long rides in hot weather can cause oils to lose viscosity.

The thinner oil fails to protect bearings and other critical components from wear.

Higher values reflect better film strength.

fwiw

:doorag:

[ulflyer]

IMHO oil brand is more personal preference. I'm staying with the 3k mile OCI that I have always used on my bikes.
Maybe its overkill, maybe not, but it has always worked for me.

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk

Definitely a good number to use for maximum care of your motor.

[MarkLawson]

This is the current approval for M1 10w40 moto oil as of May 2014

SN, JASO MA1
2006

According to the SN rating it meets the BRP spec, and as an SN rated, does not have the additional codes indicating additives or friction modifiers.

From what I read, it seems MA2 is less components bad for the catalytic converter.

If there is more or a reason to seek out an MA2, please explain.

Thanks
PK

I cannot speak to the codes as I don't know much about them. As suggested, it might be worthwhile to do a search concerning Mobil 1 (motorcycle blend) and it's use in the Spyder. Not all reported results were positive. The codes then also met BRP's requirements, but some of the real world results indicated problems. I love the oil myself & have run it in my Goldwings for many years.

[den1953]

I can't yet speak for the 1330 Rotax Can AM yet as I don't own one yet, but I do use this Amsoil in my Victory Cross Country. I don't push it to 9000 miles however and change mine every 6000 miles. My engine is oil & air cooled and probably runs hotter than your water cooled ones. I've never had my oil tested but I've never had a problem with Amsoil and changes at 6000 mile intervals. I'm no expert, but I do take good care of my rides and I feel that a 6000 mile oil change interval is more appropriate sounding than a 9000 mile one. Just my two cents worth.

[BikerDoc]

I ran 9300 to my 12300 mile maintenance with no oil use and barely did colored from translucent with brp blend

[ulflyer]

I ran 9300 to my 12300 mile maintenance with no oil use and barely did colored from translucent with brp blend

Doc, color doesn't mean anything relative to shearing. I guarantee that if you test yours at 5K you'll find the viscosity has sheared down to as little as 20 weight. If you plan on keeping your ACE a long time, and I imagine you do,
I'd recommend you test your favorite oil. Blackstone will send you free bottles and you mail it back with about $25, or you can get WIX samples online or from NAPA for a bit less. Unless I find some magic oil formula, I don't plan on exceeding 4000 miles between changes.

A friend of mine recently had BRP Blend put in her '12 and if
I can catch her at the 3-4K range I'll do a test on it. I've tested several oils, but never the BRP blend, and would like to know how it fares compared to other oils.

[SB1]

I ran Shell T6 in my Yamaha Tour Deluxe and Mobile 1 V Twin in my Ultra. Have not had any issue with either. I will run the T6 in my RTS 1330 and do the changes every 4500.

[ulflyer]

I ran Shell T6 in my Yamaha Tour Deluxe and Mobile 1 V Twin in my Ultra. Have not had any issue with either. I will run the T6 in my RTS 1330 and do the changes every 4500.

I've thought of that oil but theres so many interesting ones that
I wanted to test and never got around to it. Can I talk you into testing the t6 at 4000? I'd sure like to know how it fares.

Heres the type kit I use:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wix-24077-Oil-Analysis-Kit-to-Send-to-Laboratory-/231236182612?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35d6c02254

[SB1]

I've thought of that oil but theres so many interesting ones that I wanted to test and never got around to it. Can I talk you into testing the t6 at 4000? I'd sure like to know how it fares.Will do, was thinking of doing that anyway. Just to be certain "Blackstone" is the lab you used, I like consistency?

[ulflyer]

Will do, was thinking of doing that anyway. Just to be certain "Blackstone" is the lab you used, I like consistency?

I've used Blackstone on my cars in the past and they are good, but have used only WIX on my previous '11 and now on '14 because I got a good deal on a doz of the prepaid kits. Wix uses a lab in Atlanta called ALS. Whichever you use, mail it in a brown puffy or box and ans "no" to the PO litany. While used oil is legal to mail, some clerks don't know it and won't accept your word. The test above on mine was mailed 2 Jun and I got an email report on 10 Jun.

[SB1]

I've used Blackstone on my cars in the past and they are good, but have used only WIX on my previous '11 and now on '14 because I got a good deal on a doz of the prepaid kits. Wix uses a lab in Atlanta called ALS. Whichever you use, mail it in a brown puffy or box and ans "no" to the PO litany. While used oil is legal to mail, some clerks don't know it and won't accept your word. The test above on mine was mailed 2 Jun and I got an email report on 10 Jun.
Will do, it will be a couple of months I am currently on the Dino oil with 1500 miles. I ride quite a bit so not to long.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

.So is BAJARON full of hooey about Amsoil..........? ? ? ? ?................His test reports appear to differ from yours ....Mikeguyver :thumbup:

[Ramjet]

You know this is interesting. I would like to see test results from different labs on the same oil from the machine.

I seriously question how any synthetic is shearing in 4000 miles of highway riding. maybe the machine is running too hot?

I would be more interested in the ferrous content along with other metals in the sample.

I change even with Amzoil every 4000 miles even in my cars.

[sddinnh]

The way it was explained to me in fluid dynamics is that the viscosity of oil is a byproduct of the long oil molecules in the oil. These long oil molecules are what rides between the surfaces for them to slide on. Over time. these molecules are essentially "chopped" up shorter and shorter by the transmission gears and the viscosity changes. Oil that runs only in engines (cars, bikes with separate transmission oil) is not subject the this and thus maintains it's viscosity longer. Oil that runs in both the engine and transmission does not maintain it's viscosity as long. Thats why transmissions generally run much heavier oil so it holds up longer by starting out heaver. JMHO and what I was taught :dontknow:

[DrewNJ]

A friend of mine recently had BRP Blend put in her '12 and if
I can catch her at the 3-4K range I'll do a test on it. I've tested several oils, but never the BRP blend, and would like to know how it fares compared to other oils.

please post up your findings if you do get the opportunity. this would be very interesting to see for sure!



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[jcthorne]

The way it was explained to me in fluid dynamics is that the viscosity of oil is a byproduct of the long oil molecules in the oil. These long oil molecules are what rides between the surfaces for them to slide on. Over time. these molecules are essentially "chopped" up shorter and shorter by the transmission gears and the viscosity changes. Oil that runs only in engines (cars, bikes with separate transmission oil) is not subject the this and thus maintains it's viscosity longer. Oil that runs in both the engine and transmission does not maintain it's viscosity as long. Thats why transmissions generally run much heavier oil so it holds up longer by starting out heaver. JMHO and what I was taught :dontknow:


Actually modern transmissions are going to thinner and thinner oils. The latest Mercon LV is essentially a 0 weight oil but has a film strength better than 75w gear oil. The thinner oils flow better and have less drag for fuel efficiency. Weight and film strength are not directly related as they once were.

[ulflyer]

.So is BAJARON full of hooey about Amsoil..........? ? ? ? ?................His test reports appear to differ from yours ....Mikeguyver :thumbup:

Mike, I wouldn't touch that one with a 10 foot pole. I think too much of Ron to contradict him.

Perhaps its the results of us using different labs. All I know is that I had 6 tests done on the 998 using a variety of motorcycle oils, and now the first test on the 1330. Every one of these showed oil shearing significantly from 2000-3000 miles. I used the same lab ALS.

The question in my mind is, WHEN IS AN OIL TOO THIN? The labs say when it shears down significantly from its higher weight...in our case 40W. But look at most cars now using 0W-20! Surely BRP knows oil shears rapidly...this is nothing new in the bike world; almost all that share oil with gearbox/clutch experience this. Yet BRP says it ok to use their BLEND for 9000 miles? I can about guarantee you that by that time its 10W or so. BRP, is that fine with you?

So, until I get an informed answer about how thin I can run an oil, I'll keep checking mine till I come up with a solution that satisfys me. It need not suit others and I'm not trying to say any of you should follow my lead; just tossing out info as I get it as I know some others are also interested in oil results. Each of you need to do what makes you feel comfortable. :)

[sddinnh]

WHEN IS AN OIL TOO THIN? The labs say when it shears down significantly from its higher weight...in our case 40W. But look at most cars now using 0W-20! Surely BRP knows oil shears rapidly...this is nothing new in the bike world; almost all that share oil with gearbox/clutch experience this. Yet BRP says it ok to use their BLEND for 9000 miles? I can about guarantee you that by that time its 10W or so. BRP, is that fine with you?

That's a good question. But, I think I'll stick to 3-4000 miles changes until I get more definitive information, either from BRP or another dependable source. Look at it this way, It can't hurt anything and at worst I'm replacing oil that doesn't need to be replaced.

[ulflyer]

That's a good question. But, I think I'll stick to 3-4000 miles changes until I get more definitive information, either from BRP or another dependable source. Look at it this way, It can't hurt anything and at worst I'm replacing oil that doesn't need to be replaced.

I agree. You can use about any cycle oil and be saft at 3K. I enjoy trying and testing various formulas and if I can find something that will give me 4K I'd be happy. Otherwise, I'll go 3K also.

[Ramjet]

The shear strength of many synthetic is rather high again I would like to see that oil tested and see the results of different labs before I would be convinced. Of course I am not saying you should spend the money I just am making conversation so to speak.

Plus the synthetics have a much lower pour point to begin with so I really am suspect of those labs results and the analysis from this lab.

That said I would not go 9000 miles I like the 4k-4.5k change intervals. Even with Amzoil.

The he more I think about it the more I am questioning this Lab and the results.....

[jerpinoy]

If you change your oil often than the recommended intervals then you are giving your hard earn money to the oil companies and not helping the environment. JMHO.

[ulflyer]

The shear strength of many synthetic is rather high again I would like to see that oil tested and see the results of different labs before I would be convinced. Of course I am not saying you should spend the money I just am making conversation so to speak.

Plus the synthetics have a much lower pour point to begin with so I really am suspect of those labs results and the analysis from this lab.

That said I would not go 9000 miles I like the 4k-4.5k change intervals. Even with Amzoil.

The he more I think about it the more I am questioning this Lab and the results.....

Only way to know is to send of two samples at same time, one to a diff lab. I'd be glad to do that if someone will foot the bill for a Blackstone test...about $25.Someone on BITOG forum did that with auto oil and the results were the same.

I would think since NAPA, WIX, and I think O'Reilly, use this lab (ALS) it must be suitable. I did use Blackstone for the first test on my '11 and it also came back showing severe shearing. Thats when I began tested nearly every oil change and got interested in trying diff oils mostly out of curiosity.

From tests others have done on BITOG on a variety of bikes and a variety of oil, I haven't seen any 10-40, and no 5-40 exceed 4000 other than in some bikes that do not share oil with gear/clutch. Usually the major shearing is by 2000 mi.

20-50 and 20-40 seems to hold up very well in other bikes but BRP doesn't sanction use of this. I did test the use of a quart of 20-50 along with 10-40 in my '11 one summer and that helped considerably. Two quarts was even better.

[jcthorne]

This is one of the reasons I installed the oil pressure gauge that so many told me was a waste of money. The low viscosity over milage shows up in low idle oil pressures. My last drain of BRP XPS was down to 9psi at hot idle. Fresh oil and its near 30 again. Running the Valvoline synthetic MC oil this time and will keep an eye on the gauge and send it off for testing.

[Tango]

If you change your oil often than the recommended intervals then you are giving your hard earn money to the oil companies and not helping the environment. JMHO.

I agree with this. :thumbup: The Gold Wing calls for oil and filter every 8,000 miles. Or one year. And that's using Dino oil! Most riders here would fall under the one year change interval. Those under the Mason/Dixon line probably put more miles on. I usually change my oil and filter every fall to have fresh oil circulate before parking for the winter. :thumbup: Have been doing this with my cycles for 35 years. Never had an engine problem. :popcorn: Tom :trike:

[ulflyer]

I agree with this. :thumbup: The Gold Wing calls for oil and filter every 8,000 miles. Or one year. And that's using Dino oil! Most riders here would fall under the one year change interval. Those under the Mason/Dixon line probably put more miles on. I usually change my oil and filter every fall to have fresh oil circulate before parking for the winter. :thumbup: Have been doing this with my cycles for 35 years. Never had an engine problem. :popcorn: Tom :trike:

I don't believe The GW has a shared sump does it? They are one of the few machines that exceed the numbers I've been posting. Another one is the BMW.

[sddinnh]

Older BMW 1200's used a dry clutch and separate gear oil (which I maintain is a different animal), the latest water cooled ones have moved to a wet clutch and common oil for both the engine and the transmission. They were only introduced last year, so the results are still out on those.

[ulflyer]

This is one of the reasons I installed the oil pressure gauge that so many told me was a waste of money. The low viscosity over milage shows up in low idle oil pressures. My last drain of BRP XPS was down to 9psi at hot idle. Fresh oil and its near 30 again. Running the Valvoline synthetic MC oil this time and will keep an eye on the gauge and send it off for testing.


JT, this is new to me and really interesting. Never knew about the viscosity/oil pressure relationship. What kind of
miles do you get on the oil before the pressure drops? Did you notice the pressure starting to drop earlier, that it, for some time before you changed the oil?

[Tango]

I don't believe The GW has a shared sump does it? They are one of the few machines that exceed the numbers I've been posting. Another one is the BMW.


Gold Wing uses only one oil for both. And the clutch fouls easily if you use a friction modified oil. :thumbup: Tom :trike:

[Ramjet]

The labs you are using are mainly labs that deal with Automobile Oils the oil that you use in a cycle is a different animal in that most cars are not running wet clutches like a MC does. I still am very skeptical of the results you are getting.

To to the post talking about the environment well let's get one thing straight I recycle oil so that is of not concern of mine if it was that important we would all be riding bicycles.:doorag:

[Jeriatric]

Read for yourself.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Tri ple_Protection_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf

$18.00 a gallon @ our local Auto Zone. nojoke

:doorag:





I ran Shell T6 in my Yamaha Tour Deluxe and Mobile 1 V Twin in my Ultra. Have not had any issue with either. I will run the T6 in my RTS 1330 and do the changes every 4500.

[ulflyer]

Read for yourself.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Tri ple_Protection_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf

$18.00 a gallon @ our local Auto Zone. nojoke

:doorag:

About $13 at Walmart (for a gal compared to $13 qt for Motul 7100)! I'll let you know how the Rotellaa tests out shortly after I hit the 2500 mile mark with it! Thats what I put in mine yesterday. BTW, this oil has been a favorite of many bikers for some years now and I believe theres several Spyder owners using it but don't publicize it Early on a couple owners said it caused their clutch to slip and this kept me from using it in my '11, but I'm giving it a try in the '14.

I have Motul 7100, with it claims of wonderfulness, in the garage for the next change after the Rotella.

[ulflyer]

[QUOTE=Ramjet;826829]The labs you are using are mainly labs that deal with Automobile Oils the oil that you use in a cycle is a different animal in that most cars are not running wet clutches like a MC does. I still am very skeptical of the results you are getting. Quote

I've read hundreds of UAO motorcycle reports on BITOG forum , some from reputable cycle racers and others with a lot of mechanical knowledge, and never read anything that suggested the labs were not competent to test motorcyle oils. Indeed, unless you tell them they don't know, or care, what type machine the test oil came from.

Nevertheless, I respect your views and would encourage others with differing views to chime in. That's a good way to learn.:)

BTW, if you know of a lab that specializes in motorcyle oil tests I'd be glad to give it a try.

[Jeriatric]

About $13 at Walmart (for a gal compared to $13 qt for Motul 7100)! I'll let you know how the Rotellaa tests out shortly after I hit the 2500 mile mark with it! Thats what I put in mine yesterday. BTW, this oil has been a favorite of many bikers for some years now and I believe theres several Spyder owners using it but don't publicize it Early on a couple owners said it caused their clutch to slip and this kept me from using it in my '11, but I'm giving it a try in the '14.

I have Motul 7100, with it claims of wonderfulness, in the garage for the next change after the Rotella.

IMO....the temps that these engines have to operate at add to viscosity loss. Then, start running one in constant high ambient temps and it gets worse.

When we took our trip up north, much of the time my spyder was running 3 to 4 bars(hardly HOT). As soon as we got to Thousand Oaks(inland) on highway 101. The spyder went to 5 bars and that's where it stayed. If memory serves me, we were registering 113 degrees in the desert.

While 5/10w 40 may work in Canada.....some of us actually ride where it gets hot and STAYS HOT. Again, jm2c.

Look forward to hearing about your test results. If, you DO NOT notice any operational differences. It would be great if you could hold out on the test, until you match the mileage of your previous 'A' oil test. Just a thought.

[ulflyer]

IMO....the temps that these engines have to operate at add to viscosity loss. Then, start running one in constant high ambient temps and it gets worse.

When we took our trip up north, much of the time my spyder was running 3 to 4 bars(hardly HOT). As soon as we got to Thousand Oaks(inland) on highway 101. The spyder went to 5 bars and that's where it stayed. If memory serves me, we were registering 113 degrees in the desert.

While 5/10w 40 may work in Canada.....some of us actually ride where it gets hot and STAYS HOT. Again, jm2c.

Look forward to hearing about your test results. If, you DO NOT notice any operational differences. It would be great if you could hold out on the test, until you match the mileage of your previous 'A' oil test. Just a thought.

I might push it to 3000 but frankly I expect it to be sheared to point of needing change by then. Perhaps I'll be surprised and if so, it may become my oil of choice. At the price, I don't mind changing it every 3000. :)

Its going to be awhile before I reach those miles as I don't have any trips planned and with hot WX at my doorstep I'll be riding less.

[jcthorne]

JT, this is new to me and really interesting. Never knew about the viscosity/oil pressure relationship. What kind of
miles do you get on the oil before the pressure drops? Did you notice the pressure starting to drop earlier, that it, for some time before you changed the oil?


The hot idle oil pressure was pretty steady up until about 2600 miles and then started dropping. By 3000 it was down to 9psi. This is with the BRP XPS installed at the dealer. I am on Valvoline synthetic now and the pressure is back up and the valve train is much quiter. Will have to watch and see how this oil fill goes as I put miles on the bike.

I had previously seen this behavior in my GT500 some years back when Motorcraft synthetic changed suppliers/blends and prompted a change to Rotella. I would like to use Rotella in the Sypder but not sure on the wet clutch. It worked very well in our Harley with a wet clutch though.

[ulflyer]

The hot idle oil pressure was pretty steady up until about 2600 miles and then started dropping. By 3000 it was down to 9psi. This is with the BRP XPS installed at the dealer. I am on Valvoline synthetic now and the pressure is back up and the valve train is much quiter. Will have to watch and see how this oil fill goes as I put miles on the bike.

I had previously seen this behavior in my GT500 some years back when Motorcraft synthetic changed suppliers/blends and prompted a change to Rotella. I would like to use Rotella in the Sypder but not sure on the wet clutch. It worked very well in our Harley with a wet clutch though.

Thanks JT for the info. Your info about the pressure dropping fairly rapidly from 2600 on correlates with tests I have done and with a multitude of tests done on BITOG. Basically, all 10-40 oil starts shearing rapidly from about 2000 on in a shared sump engine.

For those interested in reading about tests others have done: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums you'll see a thread there similar to this one with comments from non-Can Am owners. I go by "TC1446".

You've got me interested in pressure gauge so I'm going to look up your previous threads about installation to see if its anything I can do, or have done. I'd really like to have it on my 1330 as I expect to have this machine a long time and want to give it quality care.

[garb55]

Shell makes 3 different Rotella T oils
Rotella T 15w-40 is dino. oil and is for diesel engines [$12.98 a gal. Walmart]
Rotella T5 10w-30 is a blend [$16.00 a gal. Walmart]
Rotella T6 5w-40 is full synthetic [$21.00 a gal. Walmart]
I ran T6 in my 2008 GS SM5 for 6 years [36000 miles] with no problems
I am now running T6 in my 1330 [changed oil at 3000 miles break in service now have total of 6000 miles on bike]
I installed an oil pressure gauge before oil change and at idle when engine is at running temp. the oil pressure is 9 to 11 psi
with both oils even when oil is new
BRP I believe states in service manual that above 5psi is ok [I think that is correct]
The oil pressure switch is set really low
At 3000 rpm I am running at a little above 40psi
All gauges vary a little so this is my check point for my gauge [Digital pro sport gauge]
Don9007190072

[jcthorne]

Read for yourself.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Tri ple_Protection_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf

$18.00 a gallon @ our local Auto Zone. nojoke

:doorag:


That data sheet is not for Rotella T6 Synthetic. That is for the regular Rotella T, sometimes called T5. The T6 runs about $21 a gallon at WalMart or Sams. A bit more at the autoparts stores and truck stops. Oh, and the T6 is a 5W-40.

[Jeriatric]

That data sheet is not for Rotella T6 Synthetic. That is for the regular Rotella T, sometimes called T5. The T6 runs about $21 a gallon at WalMart or Sams. A bit more at the autoparts stores and truck stops. Oh, and the T6 is a 5W-40.

Right you are.

[ulflyer]

Right you are.

Both T and T6 are now Jaso Ma2, api SN. T5 is not rated MA at all.

[Bad Dog6]

You might try Oil Analyzers Inc. They are recommended by Amsoil. I have not tested oil in my Spyder but I have on every other vehicle I have owned over the years and the test results have always supported Amsoil's claims. Would be interested to compare to Blackstone's.

[ulflyer]

You might try Oil Analyzers Inc. They are recommended by Amsoil. I have not tested oil in my Spyder but I have on every other vehicle I have owned over the years and the test results have always supported Amsoil's claims. Would be interested to compare to Blackstone's.

Thanks for the info. In case anyone wants to know about the Lab I've been using, here is their web site. I use the lab in Atlanta:

http://www.l-a-b.com/lab/als-laboratory-group-ltd-tribology-division-dba-als-tribology-aka-als-staveley-services

[BajaRon]

I love oil threads... but sometimes I just sit back and watch. Especially when my experience differs from others.

I can only go with what I've done and it's not to discredit what ulflyer has posted. We simply have had different experiences with oil testing and I have no explanation for this. I assume that all testing facilities use the same methods so results should not vary that much as long as all other parameters are the same.

Motorcycle oil is an automotive lubricant and will not make any difference in the test results. This is certainly not a factor in the differences in testing outcomes.

I've had my 10w-40 Amsoil tested several times. I've had a few with slight fuel dilution and that, I'm sure, is a function of too rich a setting on my Juice Box. The JB is not extremely adjustable through the power band like the PC unit. But I digress.

In my worst test so far, with 6,400 hard, hot miles on the oil, I ended up with a 13.3 cST viscosity rating. As you can see in the conversion chart below, that's not too bad. Especially with the 1.7% (though slight) fuel contamination which will lower the viscosity index.

As you can see in this conversion chart, each SAE viscosity rating has a range within the cST index (Left side of the chart).

I have also tested BRP oil for another person with about 5.5k on it. That test came back pretty ugly with a lot of RED - Warning! Danger Will Robinson! notations. If you're going to run extended mileage with anything but a high quality, Type IV true synthetic oil in your Spyder I would highly recommend having it tested. And, as ulflyer points out, it doesn't hurt to have your Amsoil, or whatever true synthetic oil you choose tested as well.

I use Oil Analyzers, Inc. (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oaitesting.com%2F&ei=vnugU-K4KY-SqgbPuIKYCg&usg=AFQjCNFJUMY_Eg6_QhubjiKS4F1ahvK4Ww&bvm=bv.68911936,d.b2k) but I'm not saying they are any better or worse than another testing service. They are a certified facility so I believe their results can be trusted.

Just to see what would happen I sent a sample of Amsoil but said it was Castrol. The results came back similar to previous Amsoil tests but with this statement; 'We acknowledge the FLUID INFORMATION (manufacturer and/or product name) was provided, however we were not able to validate it within our database or from the fluid manufacturer.'

In other words, they were saying that my sample was NOT a Castrol product of any kind. It means they were paying attention and I thought that was significant.

I hope this information helps someone make an informed decision on what I consider to be an important aspect of ownership... Lubrication! :ohyea:

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd365/BajaRon/Amsoil/CSTtoVisOil_zpsecd1c63e.jpg

[BajaRon]

This topic is getting pretty heavy, almost to a BITOG level.

Can I ask, BajaRon, which BRP oil was tested, the full synthetic or the blended.

PK

It was the blended oil. And BITOG has some very good information.

I figure it's like the candy store. Some go for the simple stuff like a lemon drop. Others go for the Cheesecake with exotic toppings. You get both ends of the spectrum here on Spyderlovers and everything in-between!

(Excuse me while I check to see if there is any of that cheesecake left in the fridge....)

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Read for yourself.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Tri ple_Protection_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf

$18.00 a gallon @ our local Auto Zone. nojoke

:doorag:
IT'S AN " SM " OIL ! ! ! ..........Mikeguyver :yikes:

[Jeriatric]

IT'S AN " SM " OIL ! ! ! ..........Mikeguyver :yikes:

Oh no!!!! :roflblack:

[SB1]

IT'S AN " SM " OIL ! ! ! ..........Mikeguyver :yikes:

But the 1330's do NOT carry the same SM warning that the previous models did.

[AbNormy]

Now I don't feel quite so bad about finding out my dealer put 20/50 not 10/40 amsoil last fall, except it was fall not spring or summer. I chewed them out and rightly so cause they didn't tell me I only discovered it by accident, drained it and put 10/40 in. But it's hot here and I drive 10-12 miles each way to work. So I saved the 20/50 and think I'll at least use a qt with the other 2.5 qts 10/40 to use it up, or do y'all think it'll be ok just 20/50 in the summer?


Living the dream while I still can!

[ulflyer]

Now I don't feel quite so bad about finding out my dealer put 20/50 not 10/40 amsoil last fall, except it was fall not spring or summer. I chewed them out and rightly so cause they didn't tell me I only discovered it by accident, drained it and put 10/40 in. But it's hot here and I drive 10-12 miles each way to work. So I saved the 20/50 and think I'll at least use a qt with the other 2.5 qts 10/40 to use it up, or do y'all think it'll be ok just 20/50 in the summer?


AbNormy, with a handle like that, you can use anything you want! :D

I did use a quart with a second for topping off in my previous '11 Rt over a period of several oil changes with no obvious issues.
It brought the viscosity up enough that it was still in the safe zone at the 4K mile changes that I used.

[BajaRon]

IT'S AN " SM " OIL ! ! ! ..........Mikeguyver :yikes:

You know the 'SM' rating stands for don't you.... 'Slip Much?'. :roflblack:

[ulflyer]

You know the 'SM' rating stands for don't you.... 'Slip Much?'. :roflblack:


Pretty sure its rated SN......'Slip No-more" :D

[Ramjet]

misconception go to: Read and learn this is a great site to get educated.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

[AbNormy]

Ulflyer seen young Frankenstein? If you knew me before I sobered up 20+ yrs ago you'd understand lol...hard headed I am...

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

[BajaRon]

misconception go to: Read and learn this is a great site to get educated.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

Great article but a bit off tangent to what is being discussed here.

Wear is wear and BITOG is right in saying that you need a relatively large number of samples to really know what your metal content readings are telling you. But you only need 1 sample test to tell you if your oil is breaking down prematurely which indicates that you definitely need to A- Change your oil more often or B- Use a superior lubricant.

BITOG is looking at Metal Content which indicates actual wear and the oil's ability to lubricate and protect. This requires time and a large number of samples.

We are discussing SHEAR (the loss of viscosity) which does not indicate actual wear but does give a very good indication of how likely it is that the oil being tested is lubricating effectively. 1 test is all you really need to determine this.

Once you get an oil that is maintaining proper viscosity throughout the service interval. Then you can start comparing it to other oils that also maintain proper viscosity by checking metal content readings. But we are really talking about fleet operations here, not individual Spyder owners.

Another point I would make is that BITOG is looking at engine only applications whereas we are discussing a combined Engine/Transmission where shear is a much bigger problem.

Proper viscosity is not only critical when changing oil, it is also critical that the oil MAINTAIN proper viscosity. Transmissions are much harder on an oils viscosity than the engine. Once viscosity begins to break down then so does the oil's ability to lubricate and protect. Of course it would be expected to see higher metal content when an oil has lost significant viscosity. But as BITOG says, you can't be sure until you get several tests using this approach.

But you can be pretty sure with just 1 test when looking at Shear and Viscosity degradation.

So, measuring viscosity only is not the whole story. But if the oil is not able to maintain adequate viscosity then that is really the end of the story regardless of what an individual metal analysis might indicate.

[Magdave]

So Ron do you think the oil change interval should/will be shortened in the 2014 if it shears this fast?

[BajaRon]

So Ron do you think the oil change interval should/will be shortened in the 2014 if it shears this fast?

If it is confirmed that the oil you are using has sheared to the point that it is no longer offering adequate lubrication then yes, I would recommend shortening the oil change interval until you get good test results.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Pretty sure its rated SN......'Slip No-more" :D

POST #57, use the link, under specs , the 2 nd line down : SM SL SJ SH -----or maybe I'm not reading it right ????? :gaah: :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:....I think I am ....Mikeguyver :thumbup:

[ulflyer]

POST #57, use the link, under specs , the 2 nd line down : SM SL SJ SH -----or maybe I'm not reading it right ????? :gaah: :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:....I think I am ....Mikeguyver :thumbup:

Oh shoot, you got me on this one BK!!! :opps: I think maybe I was thinking of the fact rotella had been upgraded to Jaso MA2.
(Had to come up with some excuse!):D
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_States_Shell_Rotella_T_Tri ple_Protection_15W-40_%28CJ-4%29_%28en-US%29_TDS.pdf

[Jeriatric]

30 December 2008 - 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Richard Moore, Staff Engineer
Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.
Westhollow Technology Center, PO Box 4327, Houston, TX 77210, United States of America


Date: 1/18/2008


We recently ran the JASO MA friction test on Rotella T with Triple
Protection 15W-40, Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) and our soon to be introduced (within the next 2 months) ★Rotella T(6)Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4.




All three oils passed the wet clutch friction test.




Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) has more than 1.2% ash (JASO MA spec limit) so it can not be classified as JASO MA.




However, Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 and our soon to be introduced Rotella T(6) Synthetic ★5W-40 CJ-4 do meet JASO MA."


If you have any additional questions please call us at 800-231-6950.
Thank you for your interest in Shell products.




●Note: rating update since 2008 - T6 is now a JASO, MA, &


"MA2" rated oil.

[Jeriatric]

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Personally found his research and discovery worth the read. You, may, or, may not.

This page Copyright © 2003-2011, by Mark Lawrence of calsci.

[BajaRon]

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Personally found his research and discovery worth the read. You, may, or, may not.

This page Copyright © 2003-2011, by Mark Lawrence of calsci.

That article is a bit dated but still has generally sound advise. There are several paragraphs which deal specifically with motorcycles (which he correctly explains are a much different environment for motor oil than a car engine).

Here he explains how they create multi-grade oil. All oils naturally get thinner as they heat up. But what is needed is an oil that starts out thin when cold and gets thicker as it heats up.

To make a 10w-40 oil, the manufacturer would start out with a 10 weight oil as the base stock. All by itself, this oil would thin out so much at normal operating temperatures that the oil film would be useless. So, they add these very special very long molecules, the VIIs. The VII molecules are as much as 1000 times as long as an oil molecule. The VII molecules curl up in a little ball at room temperature, but as the temperature gets higher they uncurl and stretch out, like a cat sleeping in the sunlight. The more stretched out the molecule is, the more it impedes the normal flow of the oil, thus raising the effective viscosity. Now, this sounds just a little too good to be true. Well, there are two catches: first, these molecules are not lubricants, so the more of them that you add the less oil you have sitting around lubricating things. Secondly, these VII molecules can be broken into pieces by various pressures and forces, like being squeezed through the transmission gears in a motorcycle or the hydraulic valves in a diesel engine. Every time a VII molecule gets broken, the oil loses some of its high temperature viscosity. Synthetic oils made from pure PAOs and/or Diesters typically have very few VIIs, so these oils are far less subject to viscosity breakdown due to shearing of the VII package. As a result, synthetics are far more stable in a motorcycle engine.

[Ramjet]

Heck my 750 hp Mustang Shelby does not shear oil like these BRP Rotax motors do maybe the design is the real issue? High Rev running hot not what I call a motor that is easy to maintain a or cheap for that matter. I thought the 1330 was such great improvement over the previous years?

[BajaRon]

Heck my 750 hp Mustang Shelby does not shear oil like these BRP Rotax motors do maybe the design is the real issue? High Rev running hot not what I call a motor that is easy to maintain a or cheap for that matter. I thought the 1330 was such great improvement over the previous years?

It's not the engine really. It's the transmission. Your Shelby doesn't run the engine oil through the transmission gears or you'd have the same problem only worse because of the HP and torque.

It's just the nature of the beast. In a perfect world you'd have a a compartment for the engine, a different compartment for the clutch and another compartment for the transmission. That way each could be lubricated with the optimum oil product. But that would add weight and size which is unacceptable in a motorcycle. So, instead we ask 1 oil to do 3 very different jobs well. That is a tall order.

Even the best oils struggle. And lesser oils fail.

[Jeriatric]

Heck my 750 hp Mustang Shelby does not shear oil like these BRP Rotax motors do maybe the design is the real issue? High Rev running hot not what I call a motor that is easy to maintain a or cheap for that matter. I thought the 1330 was such great improvement over the previous years?

If you feel the need to continue to take swipes at BRP....please make them intelligible. The 990 rotax doesn’t shear oil any worse than the KTM 990. They are both free reving twins. As far as the 1330 and how well it behaves in the spyder, long term, has yet to be seen. Only time will tell. jm2c Shoot higher. :doorag:

[BajaRon]

Not to nit pick or discredit your words, the Honda CRF450r four stroke MX bike was designed with separate engine oil and gearbox oil and still 11 years later has kept this design. It allows the engine to run on the best oil with no clutch problems, and the gearbox is able to run a properly rated gear oil. It can be done, but is not the norm.

It is leaning towards the simple and best will be a proper break in followed by quality oil, changed more often than the recommended interval.

PK

True, there were, and still are some, that have these 3 (or 2 of the 3) separated. My Triumph and BSA had 3 separate compartments. Many Harley's and other motorcycles did too. But it is rare today as size and weight have become more and more important. The great improvements in lubricants allows them to combine these functions.

But the biggest factor is still the transmission, not the engine.

[Ramjet]

One oil cannot do it all Ron I agree. But lower reeving motors will not shear the oil like the Rotax. Sure some other MFG have high rev motor that suffer the same characteristics. If the motor is running at 4000 and you shift like most do with the handlebar shifting this clutch plates and tranny gears are turning at high RPM.

He he he he the Shelby does not get babied but it does get Amzoil.........


But be clear here jerbear we are talking BRP.

I ran a Victory and did several oil samples at 4500 miles they share the oil unlike the Harley's and never not one time in this interval changes did I have shear. Not once. The point is the lower reeving motors will shear like the Rotax the Victory is one oil bike as well.

[Bob Denman]

What's your point? :dontknow:

And now that you've sold your :spyder2:; why has your trashing of the bikes, their design,and BRP been ramped up to an entirely new level?

[DrewNJ]

One oil cannot do it all Ron I agree. But lower reeving motors will not shear the oil like the Rotax. Sure some other MFG have high rev motor that suffer the same characteristics. If the motor is running at 4000 and you shift like most do with the handlebar shifting this clutch plates and tranny gears are turning at high RPM.

He he he he the Shelby does not get babied but it does get Amzoil.........


But be clear here jerbear we are talking BRP.

I ran a Victory and did several oil samples at 4500 miles they share the oil unlike the Harley's and never not one time in this interval changes did I have shear. Not once. The point is the lower reeving motors will shear like the Rotax the Victory is one oil bike as well.
wow, you have really become anti-brp/anti-rotax recently...so sorry that you have become so bitter...

the rotax vtwin has been used in the Aprilia bikes with no specific oil related issues for years so you can't over think the oil.

Something to keep in mind is that Aprilia specs 15/50 oil. BRP doesn't like to stock a lot of oil on their shelves so they are notorious for specing one common oil for multiple platforms, even if it may not really be the best weight to run.

All oil shears and breaks down. A lighter weight oil will shear faster. Higher revs and a wet clutch will shear it faster. it is what it is.
IMHO fuel dilution is a bigger concern in all gas engines and your not filtering fuel dilution.... which is why I'm skeptical of the 9k+ OCI in the new machines.

personally, I do 3k mile changes with the BRP kits and am comfortable with that. a good friend runs the spec 4.6k on the same oil with with a lot of miles on his machine. if I were extending my OCI I would feel more comfortable adding a quart of 20/50 vs. worrying about what brand oil I was using...

still, probably the best idea is to change the oil once in awhile and use what works for you.

ride more, worry less.....[emoji106]

Sent from my Venue 8 3830 using Tapatalk

[BajaRon]

Agree, was not nit picking .

Too bad Rotax didn't design a split system with the 1330, regardless, as mentioned, other machines run long, far, and fast with shared systems.

PK

Didn't take it that way at all. You are correct in what you said.

[den1953]

My Victory is the same way with the engine, tranny and primary all using the same oil, so essentially the same thing. I am going 6000 miles on Amsoil 10W40 motorcycle oil made for use with wet clutches. I am changing the filter at 3000 half-way through the 6000 mile interval. From what you have been saying, this oil is breaking down some by 4000 miles. Am i risking damage by going 6000 miles on my Amsoil? I know this isn't a Can AM ACE 1330 but there is similarity in the two engine designs.

[Bob Denman]

:dontknow: My guess... take a sample, and have it analyzed. :thumbup:

[ulflyer]

My Victory is the same way with the engine, tranny and primary all using the same oil, so essentially the same thing. I am going 6000 miles on Amsoil 10W40 motorcycle oil made for use with wet clutches. I am changing the filter at 3000 half-way through the 6000 mile interval. From what you have been saying, this oil is breaking down some by 4000 miles. Am i risking damage by going 6000 miles on my Amsoil? I know this isn't a Can AM ACE 1330 but there is similarity in the two engine designs.

Den, from what I've read on BITOG forum, the Victory is pretty easy on oil, but to be sure, I'd strongly suggest anyone that has concerns similar to yours, to pick up an oil test kit and mail it off. That way you'll know what the viscosity is at a giving mileage point, plus some useful data on how your engine is wearing. I use the Wix kits found online. Amsoil distributors might have kits, and NAPA and O'reilly has, or can get them for you. Roughly about $25. This is the only way you can get a definitive answer to your question; anything else in conjecture. Let us know how you make out. :)

[BajaRon]

As already mentioned, getting a sample tested is the only way to really know. Different riding conditions and even riding styles can make a difference in how long your oil lasts. Depending completely on someone else's experience may not be the best way to go.

Plus, the more people who test their oil, the better data base we can establish to advise others.

[Jeriatric]

"The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use."

Hope you find the read worth your time. :doorag:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm .

[MikeT]

Hope you find the read worth your time. :doorag:
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm .
Thanks Jerbear for the interesting read. The obvious million dollar question is: can Mobil 1 be used in a Spyder????????
Mike

[Jeriatric]

Thanks Jerbear for the interesting read. The obvious million dollar question is: can Mobil 1 be used in a Spyder????????
Mike

I would say - Yes. (Providing the version selected meets BRP's oil requirement criteria.)

That said. It seems brand is less important than ones choice of the base stock they may prefer to run (dyno/syn). Equally important to base stock is the additive package a given brand offers. Followed by, each individuals decision on how many miles to run between oil changes. Example: Change oil every 3K and filters every other OC (or 6K). Choices :doorag:

[Jeriatric]

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php


Thanks Jerbear for the interesting read. The obvious million dollar question is: can Mobil 1 be used in a Spyder????????
Mike


Without sounding like a smarty pants, are you specifically referring to Mobil1 4t 10w-40. If so, what I read says yes.

PK


I would say - Yes. (Providing the version selected meets BRP's oil requirement criteria.)

That said. It seems brand is less important than ones choice of the base stock they may prefer to run (dyno/syn). Equally important to base stock is the additive package a given brand offers. Followed by, each individuals decision on how many miles to run between oil changes. Example: Change oil every 3K and filters every other OC (or 6K). Choices :doorag:

[Jeriatric]

"The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use."

Hope you find the read worth your time. :doorag:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm .

If the professors study has merit and fresh oil shears at the rate he states. Wouldn't 50w become 40w in short order. One would think so. Based on his year long study. :doorag:

[DrewNJ]

Not to toss a wrench in the works, but the couple that just posted hitting 100k miles said they ran BRP oil and had no issues, expecting many more miles.

PK
Doesn't surprise me at all. The BRP oil debate has also been beat to death on some of the Seadoo forums where the motors get run considerably harder than any spyder. Most of the high hour machines are mostly run on BRP oil.
I think BRP has it figured out. However, people are always over thinking oil on probably ly every platform.

[Ed_H]

I wonder if spyder brp oil is relabeled Shell. Just found this decade old collaboration between Shell and Rotax.

http://www.shell.com/global/products-services/solutions-for-businesses/aviation/news-and-library/press-releases/2014/press-release06052014.html

Of course, this is aero stuff but the brp/rotax/shell connection may be there. Just food for thought.

[ulflyer]

I started this thread simply to report the results of a lab test on the 1330ACE motor. I think I've made it clear that I'm not trying to convince anyone to use any particular oil or when to change it. Honestly folks, I really don't care.

What I am doing is to let those who are interested in oil know how it has performed for me and what FACTS I have gathered. If you are not interested, don't read about it.

I enjoy trying different brands of oil and searching for what works best in my machines. I've done a lot of lab tests for my satisfaction. The big question in my mind is WHEN IS OIL TOO THIN? I know for a FACT that certain oils will thin down to 20 weight in 2000 miles. At 4000 its much much less. Is this too thin? Does it matter?

Perhaps not, if you go by anecdotal reports. I simply don't know.

I leave it to each person to decide what makes them happy.:bowdown::D

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Back when the Spyder was first introduced BRP stated " you had to use FULL SYNTHETIC OIL " or the Spyder would self destruct :roflblack:...I am overstating this .......However now without any major modifications to the engine metallurgy you can safely use " BLENDED OIL " ...WTF ....was BRP yanking our chain then...or ...now ? ? ?.....................I'd really like to know your thoughts on this one.......Thanks Mike :thumbup:

[ulflyer]

Back when the Spyder was first introduced BRP stated " you had to use FULL SYNTHETIC OIL " or the Spyder would self destruct :roflblack:...I am overstating this .......However now without any major modifications to the engine metallurgy you can safely use " BLENDED OIL " ...WTF ....was BRP yanking our chain then...or ...now ? ? ?.....................I'd really like to know your thoughts on this one.......Thanks Mike :thumbup:

BK, I don't think they were being devious, but perhaps just not so informed as we'd like to think engineers, and maybe the public relations types, should be. Many of us, too, used to firmly believe that synthetic oil is the only thing worth using.
More and more the oil company's have begun refining dino products to a much higher degree than just a few years ago, to the point that they almost match synthetic for longevity.

Indeed, much of our so called "synthetic" is highly refined dino oil with a base stock of synthetic additives. Theres not really many pure synthetic (that is, no dino oil involved) oils out there anymore. If you notice, more and more auto makers are leaning towards a dino/syn blend now, as is BRP.

To my way of thinking, based on lab tests I've done and many hundreds of tests others have done, nearly all motorcycles with shared gear/clutch boxes will significantly shear the oil down from a 40W in the first 2-3000 miles. As I mentioned in previous posts, how thin is too thin?

Most bike makers, other than BRP, allow use of 20w-50, at least in warm weather. This weight holds up very well to 4K or more without adverse shearing. I'd like to know why Rotax motors can't use the same weight oil.

As several posters have already said, if you want to be safe, change it every 3-4K miles. I expect I will do just that with filter changes every other time. I'm still in the testing phase, hoping to find an oil that I'm comfortable using for 4K. With my '11, I added some 20-50 to the 10-40 and got good results, but again, that's going against BRP recommendations and if you have an oil related problem, you might be up the creek. With 4 years warranty on the '14, I don't want to do anything to void that warranty.

I've never used BRP blended oil, but have used Castrol blend that some say makes the BRP oil. Don't have any facts to prove that tho. I did use, and test, the Castrol and it didn't work out very well at all. I'd like to see a lab test done on the BRP, especially by those who have run it for extended miles as suggested by BRP. Would be real curious to see what the viscosity is. Email Blackstone Lab and they will send you a free sample kit. Return it with $25 for the test.

BTW, I've done a lot to talking about viscosity, but the lab reports tell you a lot about how the motor is wearing and can give you a heads up if there appears to be wear issues, or water/fuel in the oil, etc. Viscosity is just one of many items checked.

[sddinnh]

:agree: We all learn as we go along. It is part of human nature to take something basic and keep improving it and moving it forward.

[ulflyer]

ulflyer, I would not be offended by any posts here. My mention of the BRP oil was not focused at anyone, or any machine, simply that it worked for them. As for oil samples, they are exactly as you posted and so often get open to debate.

On the aircraft, I have seen samples over the years when the oil drained out metallic into the bucket yet the sample was good. Other engines had great looking drains and based on one metal being too much, they told us with certainty what part was failing.

Me personally, I was being lazy. Always ran M1 in my daily driver Nissan and Tacoma pickups, ran M1 in the wifes Corrolla. Based on how clean the inside of the rocker area is when I refill the oil, I decided it would be good for the Spyder.

BITOB topics and posts get crazy heated...Sometimes I would like to suggest that the people use the drain oil to preserve their chassis and bodywork, since they will have a great engine.

I would love to see all your results on a sheet, just for easy comparison.

PK

PK, no offense taken....didn't mean to make it sound that way. Actually, I'd like to hear from others who have put a lot of miles on, say 50-75K, and how their motor is faring.

If you want just the viscosity numbers reported by the lab (cSt 100c) I can list the numbers for five tests I did with the '11 and one test on the '14. You'll need to take the numbers and compare them on a viscosity chart to get the viscosity range. One of the the tests was too bad to even list a number as the oil had apparently been diluted with gas from the malfunctioning throttle body. All oils were Jaso MA2. Where I used a quart of 20-50, I used the same for topping off.

Test, miles on bike,miles on sample,type oil, cSt 100c,Lab

1 11400 3000 Amsoil10-40 11.4 "caution"
2 15000 3000 Amsoil 10-40/qt20-50 13.1 "normal"
3 19120 3000 Valvoline 10-40 11.6 "caution"
4 23024 3024 Amsoil 10-40 TB dilution....... " Severe"
5 27256 3256 Amsoil 10-40/qt20-50 13.7 "normal"
6 31000 2000 Castrol 10-40 11.1 "caution"

test on 1330

1 6700 4000 Amsoil 10-40 10.6 "caution"

Viscosity Chart
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

:clap::clap:....Wow, ulflyer, and PMK, we all have 2014 White RT - Se's..................so what type of oil are you both using ? ? ?, after following this thread I am leaning towards the Rotella 5w-40....full syn ( T - 6 ? ).......any thoughts ........I know it's also " SM " but from what I've read ...that's OK in the 1330 ACE .......Mikeguyver :thumbup:

[ulflyer]

We are dealing with a modern 4t engine with a shared gearbox oil.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Based on the chart, and your results, while the lab is cautioning, the chart as I see it still has your 100 cST values not bad for either the engine or gearbox. The engine oil is still falling within a typical 30 wt, and the gear oil properties are 80 to 85 wt. Both of these would seem to be about what is purchased for new fluids. Straight 30 is not uncommon of an acceptable oil range for many engines. If you check the gear oil on a 2t race bike, they call out around an 80 wt.

When I am building or tuning high suspension, there is a lot of focus on the 40c cST. The charts, will show huge swings of true viscosity for the same "weight" fluid.

In regards to the reports that you had done, did they also include an analysis of metals and contaminants? Those trends can be the ones to really watch, but you must be pretty much locked in with one lab, so they can compare each test to note trends.

For grins, do you have the ability to run the same oil in another engine, say a lawnmower, or better still a constantly run engine such as a pump or generator.

PK

Thanks for the feedback. The cautioning occurred at 3000 miles and while not bad at that point, if run on to 4000-4500 which BRP specified it would be down in very low 30 or even 20 weight, especially the Castrol (which was done at 2000K).

The 1330 test at 4000K was way down in the 30W block; cannot imagine running it to 9000 or more as BRP specifies.

The reports all contain metals, contaminants, and additives, as well as TBN. The test kits are by WIX and the lab ALS. I have several kits left and after another test or two on the 1330 I'll probably hold off on any more till it gets on up in miles.

I replaced the Amsoil on the 1330 with Rotella T, 15-40 (Jaso MA2), and will test it at 2000. Only got about 500 on it so it will be awhile before I get to 2K, what with hot WX and no trips planned.

Unfortunately, I don't have any other engines other than autos.

[ulflyer]

:clap::clap:....Wow, ulflyer, and PMK, we all have 2014 White RT - Se's..................so what type of oil are you both using ? ? ?, after following this thread I am leaning towards the Rotella 5w-40....full syn ( T - 6 ? ).......any thoughts ........I know it's also " SM " but from what I've read ...that's OK in the 1330 ACE .......Mikeguyver :thumbup:

Mike, I'm still trying various brands, but most likely will settle on Amsoil. Its a good solid, proven product and I haven't found anything better. Its been my "go to" oil for many years. My second choice synthetic would be Valvoline, readily available at Walmart. I never tried Mobil 1 as it used to be only Jaso MA, but I believe someone said earlier that its now MA2. If so, I'm sure its a good oil.

Never tried the 5-40 but some on BITOG with shared sump motors have not had good results. The further apart the numbers the quicker it shears.

Bottom line, It dont' matter much what you use if you change it often enough. That number is going to be no more than 4000 for me, maybe less, depending on what oil I settle on. With the 1330 oil filter good for 9K, you only have to change it every other time which makes for a really easy oil change when you only have to dump the oil and not pull tupperware.

[Jeriatric]

What do the rotax engineers who designed and factored for oil shear know that we don't know? Something tells me...a lot.

They for sure know what vescosity to start off with. What it will shear to, and when. Based on all kinds of scenarios....heat, high RPM's, filtering etc. Just to name a few.

While we all want the best. My gut tells me they have a handle on what they recommend and why. jm2c

[ulflyer]

Safe to assume, there was no abnormal amounts of wear items.

I about fainted when I read 9600 miles on a gearbox oil using a multi weight engine oil. After some thought, for us, it is unlikely we will see but 5k per year. So one or two oil and filter changes per year is my guess for us. (Probably a tire also).

PK

You're right about wear items. All very normal, in fact, lower than the 998 motor in its early stages. Iron 14, copper 5, aluminum 10. All others were <1.

[ulflyer]

What do the rotax engineers who designed and factored for oil shear know that we don't know? Something tells me...a lot.

They for sure know what vescosity to start off with. What it will shear to, and when. Based on all kinds of scenarios....heat, high RPM's, filtering etc. Just to name a few.

While we all want the best. My gut tells me they have a handle on what they recommend and why. jm2c


For sure, follow your gut. Thats what I'm doing also. :D