BUDS

[ponyexp]

How expensive is a buds system less computer??

[Maxson]

Newbie question: What is BUDS?

[Marker]

Newbie question: What is BUDS?

I found this site that explains what and how BUDS works . This site sells them but buyer beware as BRP Buds is only meant for BRP dealers.

http://www.brpdiagnostics.com/buds-how-it-works/

[finless]

From what I have been told BRP wont sell you BUDs unless you are a dealer. I believe that is illegal and against fair trade / competition laws in the US but that has been argued before.

Bob

[ARtraveler]

From what I understand--BUDS is for dealers only. There are some available out there, but they may not contain the latest and greatest from BRP. I am guessing that current updates will be the problem unless you are a dealer. :dontknow:

[Lamonster]

This is what was sent to me regarding BUDS from BRP.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/images/buds.pdf

[DrewNJ]

Brpdiagnostics is legit. The only downside I have heard from a few that have it is that they don't get the updates quite as quickly as the dealer.

[finless]

This is what was sent to me regarding BUDS from BRP.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/images/buds.pdf

I still contend that is a illegal policy here in the US. It does not allow 3rd parties to have a business and service the Spyder. This is called unfair competition.

I work for a major company that was class action sued for the same thing. That is, not giving 3rd party service companies the diagnostic software to allow them to service my companies products thus giving the company I work for a monopoly on service. My company lost that class action in 1992 and we had to allow anyone to be able to purchase the diagnostic software to service the products.

So if someone was to fight BRP on this policy I am sure BRP would loose. But who is going to do that? In my companies case it was a 500 million a year revenue stream that was locked out to any competition. Obviously enough to incent a company and lawyers to go after.

Bob

[Cruzr Joe]

I still contend that is a illegal policy here in the US. It does not allow 3rd parties to have a business and service the Spyder. This is called unfair competition.

I work for a major company that was class action sued for the same thing. That is, not giving 3rd party service companies the diagnostic software to allow them to service my companies products thus giving the company I work for a monopoly on service. My company lost that class action in 1992 and we had to allow anyone to be able to purchase the diagnostic software to service the products.

So if someone was to fight BRP on this policy I am sure BRP would loose. But who is going to do that? In my companies case it was a 500 million a year revenue stream that was locked out to any competition. Obviously enough to incent a company and lawyers to go after.

Bob


BRP is canadian based and a lawsuit may have to start there???

Cruzr Joe

[Jeriatric]

http://www.ipvancouverblog.com/canadiancompetitionlaw-abuseofdominance/

[Lamonster]

I still contend that is a illegal policy here in the US. It does not allow 3rd parties to have a business and service the Spyder. This is called unfair competition.

I work for a major company that was class action sued for the same thing. That is, not giving 3rd party service companies the diagnostic software to allow them to service my companies products thus giving the company I work for a monopoly on service. My company lost that class action in 1992 and we had to allow anyone to be able to purchase the diagnostic software to service the products.

So if someone was to fight BRP on this policy I am sure BRP would loose. But who is going to do that? In my companies case it was a 500 million a year revenue stream that was locked out to any competition. Obviously enough to incent a company and lawyers to go after.

Bob

You may be right but the least the other company could is remove the BRP logos from their software. For sure they own those.

[Nils888]

Next question. What are the people that are doing Laser alignments that are not BRP dealers doing???

[ponyexp]

Thanks for the input. It's good to get your inputs and points of view. We have some good people out there, Thanks
Denny

[finless]

BRP is canadian based and a lawsuit may have to start there???

Cruzr Joe

To sell products in the US requires compliance. So if I wanted to buy BUDs since I am in the US they would have to sell it to me. Other countries, whatever their laws are. My company is world wide so we have to go by laws for a country we sell in.

Just like this law for France, Toubon's law. If you don't translate your UI or documentation to French, you can't sell your product in France or pay the fines!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_Law


Bob

[Dizneyman]

The software is "Intellectual property" of BRP, and they do not have to sell it. It is very common in the high tech world for diagnostic software to not be sold to the general public, but only authorized dealers and service providers. The company I work for does the same, as does companies such as Kodak, NCR, Pitney Bowes etc. It protects the service revenue, and ensures proper service.

[MidTNDawg]

How expensive is a buds system less computer??

There are not a lot of days that go by without changes here. Even if you purchase you are, practically speaking, instantly out of date.

[Magdave]

Next question. What are the people that are doing Laser alignments that are not BRP dealers doing???

:agree::popcorn::popcorn:

[Pennyrick]

[QUOTE=finless;761956]To sell products in the US requires compliance. So if I wanted to buy BUDs since I am in the US they would have to sell it to me. Other countries, whatever their laws are. My company is world wide so we have to go by laws for a country we sell in.
Bob[/QUOTE

Bob:

I think this phrase is key... "Distribution and use of grey market products is in direct violation of intellectual property and copyright laws"

Legally, BRP has the right to protect their copyright everywhere they do business. Perhaps more importantly, BRP has to protect against an unauthorized person using their software to alter a vehicle to make it dangerous or unsafe to ride. I don't know the details of your company's stuff but maybe it wasn't completely proprietary.

[finless]

The software is "Intellectual property" of BRP, and they do not have to sell it. It is very common in the high tech world for diagnostic software to not be sold to the general public, but only authorized dealers and service providers. The company I work for does the same, as does companies such as Kodak, NCR, Pitney Bowes etc. It protects the service revenue, and ensures proper service.

And so I work for Xerox. And we got a class action in 1992 from 3rd party service providers, lost it, and now we have to sell our diagnostic software or sell access to it if it is embedded. So there you have it!

"Intellectual property" or not, you cant have a monopoly with it and based on many class actions like it including Kodak for it's service diagnostics, BRP could be forced to do the same. Again though I don't see high priced class action lawyers jumping on this one against BRP.

Bob

[Magdave]

You can buy a GM Tech2 that communicates with older GM cars no problem. The problem starts ~2012 models now everything has to be hooked up to GM's main web portal for any updates. I went through this with my 2012 Terrain . I added factory remote start and it had to be programed. The tech guy at the dealership I worked with let me watch everything and you had to drill down several sub menus to get to where you needed to be. There are so many computer systems on the newer cars and each is ID'ed by Vin as to what is allowed to be updated or changed.

[finless]

"The Federal and Ninth Circuits agree that “intellectual property rights
do not confer a privilege to violate the antitrust laws.” 40 In Kodak , the Ninth
Circuit noted that “two principles have emerged regarding the interplay
between these [antitrust and intellectual property] laws: (1) neither patent nor copyright
holders are immune from antitrust liability, and (2) patent and copyright holders may refuse to
sell or license protected work.”41

1 In 1994, Xerox settled an antitrust suit brought against it by a class of ISOs. Under the settlement, Xerox suspended its parts policy for 6 1/2 years and agreed to license its diagnostic software to ISOs for 4 1/2 years.



Bob

[Sny]

Next question. What are the people that are doing Laser alignments that are not BRP dealers doing???
If needed, they send you to a dealership for the steering position reset/re-zero.

[SpyRyd]

If needed, they send you to a dealership for the steering position reset/re-zero.

It's my understanding that some/many independent laser alignment folks have a "version" of BUDS. It is also my understanding that Lamont has the "real" BUDS that he uses to reset steering sensors following a laser alignment.

[Magdave]

It's my understanding that some/many independent laser alignment folks have a "version" of BUDS. It is also my understanding that Lamont has the "real" BUDS that he uses to reset steering sensors following a laser alignment.
Just like Microsoft there are always updates to Buds like the recent 2013 ECM update. That said I bet any old version will zero the steering. DPS has not changed.:dontknow:

[SpyRyd]

Just like Microsoft there are always updates to Buds like the recent 2013 ECM update. That said I bet any old version will zero the steering. DPS has not changed.:dontknow:

When I used the term "version" I wasn't referring to an outdated release but rather a non-BRP BUDS. Poor choice of words for sure.

[Dizneyman]

http://www.spydercomfort.com/independant%20dealers.htm

[SNOOPY]

Brpdiagnostics is legit. The only downside I have heard from a few that have it is that they don't get the updates quite as quickly as the dealer.


True, you buy yearly updates from them.

Whereas BRP dealers may get a few updates through the year.

You can get systems for the Can Am about $1000-$1200 plus $100 updates if needed for newer bikes.

Seadoo systems are a little more and require the DESS cable hook up.

Don't buy into all the hype, but it is expensive.
.

[SNOOPY]

Next question. What are the people that are doing Laser alignments that are not BRP dealers doing???



Not all laser alignments need the BUDS reset.

Only if they are off quite a bit, then you can take it to a dealer for reset.

I did my laser alignment w a friend and it worked great and needed no reset, threw no codes.

I'll have it checked when it goes to the dealer next time.

.

[arntufun]

It's my understanding that some/many independent laser alignment folks have a "version" of BUDS. It is also my understanding that Lamont has the "real" BUDS that he uses to reset steering sensors following a laser alignment.



Where are these laser alignment sponsors getting this so called "version" of buds ????????:popcorn:

[fastfraser]

Where are these laser alignment sponsors getting this so called "version" of buds ????????:popcorn:

WWW.SPYDERCOMFORT.COM (http://www.SPYDERCOMFORT.COM) 900 bucks plus updates.:yikes:

[finless]

I believe Digital Millennium Copyright Act supports BRP's right to maintain a closed software system.
Try to buy Dish Network's or Direct TV's decoding software.

It's illegal and people have been prosecuted for attempting to recreate it.

The software is deemed proprietary.

If BRP wanted to be really nasty about, they could concoct a bullet that would disable a Spyder connected to a gray market copy of the software.

I think the Dish thing is different. The decoding software allows for paid content. Having it allows you to cheat the paid service and steal content.

Servicing a spyder is different. Just like servicing a copier or a car. It is an antitrust issue to not allow 3rd party service of a vehicle. I understand about the updates and this is why my company when they were forced to release the diagnostic software also had a subscription fee for updates. Also we are not saying they have to release source code or any proprietary info like how BUDs works. But if taken to court they might be forced to sell BUDs to anyone that wants it to provide service. Right now, BRP holds a monopoly on servicing the spyder even for basic service items!

Bob

[Nils888]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Bob Denman]

Do you think that we're getting a little bit far away from the original question?? :shocked:
I couldn't care less about intillectual property this; or authorized that!
What are the laser alignment folks doing when it comes time to re-set those sensors?

[Jeriatric]

Do you think that we're getting a little bit far away from the original question?? :shocked:
I couldn't care less about intillectual property this; or authorized that!
What are the laser alignment folks doing when it comes time to re-set those sensors?

Off topic? Really Bob? Care for some ice cream with that cheese....:joke:

As to how they are reseting. BUDS - original, or lite. :roflblack:

[DR Buck]

WWW.SPYDERCOMFORT.COM (http://www.SPYDERCOMFORT.COM) 900 bucks plus updates.:yikes:


There is nothing at this link that indicates they sell BUDS.

[Bob Denman]

Off topic? Really Bob? Care for some ice cream with that cheese....:joke:

As to how they are reseting. BUDS - original, or lite. :roflblack:
One time... :shocked:

The ONE time, that I actually try to act all serious... :shocked:

And I get crap for it! :gaah:
:D I guess that I've earned it! :thumbup: :roflblack:

[NancysToy]

The process is simple, you can purchase a Toyota special tool that connects to the OBD port, or as most DIY guys will do, it can also be done with two paperclips.
The Spyder doesn't have an OBD port. It's diagnostic port is proprietary, too.

[DrewNJ]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I knew you had to be lingering somewhere in the shadows!
Funny isn't it? Same song and dance, different venue.....like déjà vu.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NancysToy]

I don't think that is the case as the connector can be purchased at any electrical supply house.
Perhaps "proprietary" was the wrong word to use. BRP uses a connector of their own choosing...it dos not match th OBD configuration or spec.

[NancysToy]

Sorry, my comparison was to Toyota systems that can use or may not require an oem program, not stating the Can Am uses OBD style connectors.

Again, for the Tacoma, the oem service manual explains both methods of resetting the steering angle sensor and other vehicle stability sensors. One method uses the Toyota equivalent of a BUDs setup, but it also explains how to accomplish the same task without the specialty equipment.

PK
BUDS does it only though the computer interface and a prescribed procedure. There is no alternate for the Spyder, I'm afraid. It is unlikely that there is any work-around that would be feasible.