Oil Change Frequency

[dicko]

Does anyone know why the Spyder Oil change is at such a short interval?

Is it a hang-up of BRP because all their other Rotax powered vehicles (SeaDoo, SkiDoo, Quads etc.) run in extreme conditions?

Because of tighter manufacturing tolerances, higher quality materials and highly refined oils, cars have moved their servicing schedules from 4,000mi to 6,000mi and now to 9,000mi over the last 25 years or so. Some bikes are now moving from 4,000mi to 6,000mi intervals yet the Spyder is asking for 3,000mi. I'll still keep a check on the oil level, but I'm tempted to go for 4,000 - 4,500mi intervals given that where I live we don't get extreme daytime temperatures (50-85 F) or extreme humidity. Minimum overnight is about 35 F during winter with one or two frosts.

[SpyderMark]

Because of tighter manufacturing tolerances, higher quality materials and highly refined oils, cars have moved their servicing schedules from 4,000mi to 6,000mi and now to 9,000mi over the last 25 years or so.

First, it generally doesn't serve us well to compare our Sypder's engine with automobile engines. The Spyder shares its oil between the engine and transmission. The Spyder's transmission places a great deal more stress on the oil than an automotive engine making comparisons between the two invalid.

Second, several automobile manufacturers (most notably Toyota and Audi/Volkswagon) have recently begun revising optimistic oil change schedules for some of their newer products after engines in those models began dying prematurely. The deceased engines experienced a host of problems not the least of which included bearing failures. Most of the failures were traced back to serious sludge issues. Sludge forms as a result of several phenomena, but mostly from heat and detergents in the oil washing nasty stuff off internal engine parts. How can this be bad you ask? Well, these nasty particles are too small for the filter to catch, which is OK because they are also too small to cause any direct engine damage. They are, consequently, held in suspension by the oil, which eventually becomes too saturated with impurities to hold any more. When that happens, they begin settling back out of suspension -- and back on the engine's internal parts. When sludge forms in an engine's oil distribution pathway it may prevent the oil from doing its job of lubricating critical parts. That's bad.

Click HERE (http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm)and HERE (http://www.yotarepair.com/sludge%20article.html)for good reading about oil sludge.

Bottom line: What's the easiest way to avoid sludge? How about a shorter oil change interval?


Some bikes are now moving from 4,000mi to 6,000mi intervals yet the Spyder is asking for 3,000mi.

Let's not forget the relative newness of the Spyder. Yes, the engine is a proven design, with years of service in other applications. But, the Spyder is rather unique in that the engine is tightly cowled, and it's pulling around a much larger vehicle which generates much drag on the highway.

My assumption would be BRP has set the oil change interval based on data gathered during the R&D phase. Laboratory testing of oil samples collected from prototypes can tell you a great deal about the kind of impurities in the oil and their cumulative effect on an oil's efficacy and durability.

It could very well be that BRP revises its recommended oil change schedule a few years down the road after more data accumlates from customer use. In the mean time, I would carefully consider all the possible ramifications of ignoring BRP's current recommendations in this area...

Regards,

Mark

[baxter2215]

:agree: Well said, spydermark

[NancysToy]

I agree with Mark, in that the common transmission adds stress to the oiling system. It is also a difficult component to protect with light weight oil. Think of the heavier oil in a manual transmission in a car. We should also consider the rigors of a wet clutch, and the contaminants it adds to the oil.

I wouldn't assume that BRP did a lot of thinking or testing on the oil change intervals. Maybe they did, but 3,000 miles is an old standard, and could have just as easily been a fall back position. Better to go with the proven article than chance major failures which would cost a great deal of money, and damage the manufacturers reputation.
-Scotty

The Spyder engine is subjected to a great deal of heat, from the limitations of the cooling system, and from the enclosed bodywork. It has a common transmission, light oil, and a wet clutch. I, for one, am not about to chance damage, when an oil change is relatively cheap. Even at $200, an oil change costs only 1.25% of what the Spyder cost. That is a pretty decent return on my dollar, as far as I am concerned. I'll stick with the factory intervals.

[johnboyjohn.pretious]

Many years ago when starting out in the enginering trade I asked an old timer why did oil have to be changed so often in an engine. His reply was very simple. Boy, oil is cheaper to change than bearings!!! I know now he was right...

[NancysToy]

Many years ago when starting out in the enginering trade I asked an old timer why did oil have to be changed so often in an engine. His reply was very simple. Boy, oil is cheaper to change than bearings!!! I know now he was right...
My old man, who was a master mechanic, said exactly the same thing to me. Thanks for the memory!
-Scotty

[dicko]

Thank you gentlemen for a most informative reply. I will stick to the regular schedule. The addition of the gear box and the fact that a bike revs harder that a car was always going to make some difference. Got the oil. A friend organized a bulk-buy at a significant discount from a local retailer of http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/6179_Power1_GPS%20_465159_2007_08.pdf . I bought it initially for my Yamaha XV1600 and GSXR750 but it will suit the Sypder as well.

[SpyderMark]

I wouldn't assume that BRP did a lot of thinking or testing on the oil change intervals. Maybe they did, but 3,000 miles is an old standard, and could have just as easily been a fall back position. Better to go with the proven article than chance major failures which would cost a great deal of money, and damage the manufacturers reputation.

Yup, you could very well be right Scotty -- we've all heard 3,000 miles between changes for YEARS. BRP could very well have avoided testing and simply slapped a "safe" number in the manual.

Good catch,

Mark

[NancysToy]

Yup, you could very well be right Scotty -- we've all heard 3,000 miles between changes for YEARS. BRP could very well have avoided testing and simply slapped a "safe" number in the manual.

Good catch,

Mark
I suspect that is the case with most manufacturers. If they researched it, we would see one model with 2,500 miles, another with 3,750, etc. Personally, I like the computer in my wife's HHR that figures it out as you drive, depending on how the vehicle is driven. We still change it at a fraction of what the computer says, and never go more than 5,000 miles, but it is a very logical approach. Few people realize that stop and go city driving is considered "hard service".

I might add that on all the motorcycles I actually change the oil seasonally, for storage, no matter what. I also stick to the manufacturer's recommendation. I don't count the seasonal changes, and start over, because it is too difficult to keep track of the mileage on this fleet. Maybe that's not green, but it is the conservative approach to making sure the engine survives. When you are riding and driving machinery that is up to 50-75 years old, you take every bit of caution you can to save the engine for posterity.
-Scotty

[Putt-Putt]

I change my oil every 3,000 in everything I own, always have.
But I do wounder why when I used the BRP oil the Spyder used oil and quite a bit. Had to add oil twice between oil changes. Since switching to Shell Rotella 5/40 no more oil loss.
:dontknow:

[SpyderRider2492]

I change my oil every 3,000 in everything I own, always have.
But I do wounder why when I used the BRP oil the Spyder used oil and quite a bit. Had to add oil twice between oil changes. Since switching to Shell Rotella 5/40 no more oil loss.
:dontknow:

I saw the Shell Rotella in Wally World today and was wondering if this is compatible with the Spyder ? I was amazed at the cost of the BRP oil at over $11.00 a quart, that seemed toooo much and the Rotella was around $18.00 per gallon if I remember right. I will be ready to do the 3000 soon and want to ask if any others have used this brand of oil as well.

Barry B. PE 2492 silver/black.:dontknow:

[Putt-Putt]

Several people use the Shell Rotella synthetic 5/40. What everyone says it is compatible. I have no problems with it. And i also use it in my BRP Outlander 800 whitch also uses the BRP 5/40 has worked great.

[SpyderMark]

Thank's you help make up my mind. I will go to 5,000 miles. My goldwing calls for oil change every 8,000 miles it shares the gear box.

What oil temp does your Goldwing maintain compared to your Spyder? What's the highest temp the oil sees inside the engine? Different engines distribute oil to different areas depending on the whether the oil is also serving engine cooling duties. How much more oil does your Goldwing keep in the sump? Are the specific shear forces the oil experiences different between the two machines? Different kinds of gears put different stresses on the oil. How "dirty" is the engine in your Goldwing compared to your Spyder? Some engines pick up a great deal more "grunge" in the oil than others. All of these factors (and more) affect how quickly the oil deteriorates in an engine. If you can't answer these questions it might not serve you well to make comparisons between your Goldwing and your Spyder.

Also, if you're gonna take the risk of damaging your machine by flouting the manufacturer's recommendations, you might consider not doing it so publicly. You never know who is reading -- and saving for future reference -- your posts...

Regards,

Mark

[ataDude]

Two key words in your reply your which is my machine. And recommendations.You can't answer these question are i'm sure you would have.:hun: Last time I looked I was in the USA and can say what I please with out you telling what to post.

Good grief... Mark was just trying to give advice... good advice, at that IMHO....things to consider... particularly about posting on the net. The information you (anyone) post stays in the ether world permanently and is indexed and cross-referenced by all of the search engines.

For example, Google "gvcntx" and see what you get...

This is the type of response I haven't seen on this forum before and I hope it doesn't grow, infect and destroy.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do...

[SpyderMark]

You can't answer these question are i'm sure you would have.:hun:

Since I intend to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, I have no NEED to...;)


Last time I looked I was in the USA and can say what I please with out you telling what to post.

You are correct sir, you certainly may post whatever you like! Somehow you inferred I was "telling you what to post." I assure you, nothing could be further from the truth.:thumbup:

To clarify, I've heard rumors and stories of denied insurance and warranty claims based on information gathered by investigators from public forums like this one. It seems reasonable to me that a claim by an individual he or she is arbitrarily modifying a manufacturer's maintenance recommendations might certainly be used as grounds for denial of warranty coverage. I suggested (or thought I did) you consider NOT posting your intentions in such matters publicly. Perhaps I should have been less circumspect. At any rate, I apologize for any confusion...

I honestly felt the tenor of my post was that of a friendly suggestion; I'm sorry you took it otherwise.


Regards,

Mark

[NancysToy]

To clarify, I've heard rumors and stories of denied insurance and warranty claims based on information gathered by investigators from public forums like this one. It seems reasonable to me that a claim by an individual he or she is arbitrarily modifying a manufacturer's maintenance recommendations might certainly be used as grounds for denial of warranty coverage. I suggested (or thought I did) you consider NOT posting your intentions in such matters publicly. Perhaps I should have been less circumspect. At any rate, I apologize for any confusion...
I have to agree that going so public on such a thing, is sticking one's neck out. It can be tough enough to get a manufacturer to honor engine warranty claims if you merely change your own oil. Most folks don't document it adequately, saving receipts, etc. Heck, if you buy the oil in case lots, you don't even have a closely dated receipt for the second and possibly the third change. At very least, you are put on the defensive. IMO telling the world outright means sticking your neck out. It would make me uncomfortable. We can all do maintenance any way we please, but I wouldn't flaunt it while my machine was under warranty. Now we all have to be sworn to secrecy. :D
-Scotty

[Roadkill]

+Sticking one's neck out is fine as long as your leatherneck blunts the axe.

I'll wind up doubling my intervals using pure synthetic AMSOIL with EAoM filtration, comfortable with the AMSOIL warranty backing me.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/lit/french/g1363F.pdf
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf

That's Roadkill, two ells. (You know, just in case someone's saving my posts for future reference...)

Ride on.
Roadkill

[Spyderman62]

Well....since all the experts are here tonight lets see how they answer this question - now that we have opened Pandoras Box so to speak. I have been dealing/selling oil lubricants for several years, and with small exception, there is a myth/misconception I would like for us to ponder. So....considering that our Spyders use the same oil for the transmission and engine, there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. Anyone want to guess that difference? I'll tell you. It is in the contents. You have to have the ability for an oil to lubricate, remove heat, and clean an engine, but in a motorcycle, it also has to have properties to allow for clutch components to not slip while you are driving, plus the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed. How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles? I am also concerned about the oil used by and manufactured for BRP. There are many high quality oils out there, I wonder how their stuff compares, when put to the 4 ball test or other oil quality tests. Ok I have rambled enough.

[bjt]

Well....since all the experts are here tonight lets see how they answer this question - now that we have opened Pandoras Box so to speak. I have been dealing/selling oil lubricants for several years, and with small exception, there is a myth/misconception I would like for us to ponder. So....considering that our Spyders use the same oil for the transmission and engine, there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. Anyone want to guess that difference? I'll tell you. It is in the contents. You have to have the ability for an oil to lubricate, remove heat, and clean an engine, but in a motorcycle, it also has to have properties to allow for clutch components to not slip while you are driving, plus the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed. How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles? I am also concerned about the oil used by and manufactured for BRP. There are many high quality oils out there, I wonder how their stuff compares, when put to the 4 ball test or other oil quality tests. Ok I have rambled enough.

Based on your experiance, what oil would you recommend?

[BAZMAN]

I DID MY 1ST OIL CHANGE AT 1000 MILES. I USED THE BRP OIL, THATS WHAT MY DEALER SUGGESTED. THE OIL WAS REALLY DARK. MY NEXT CHANGE WILL BE AT 4000 MILES. I AM GOING TO TRY AMSOIL AS I HAVE ALWAYS HAD GOOD LUCK WITH THEIR PRODUCTS. THEY CLAIM THAT YOU CAN GO TWICE AS LONG BETWEEN CHANGES WITH THEIR OIL, BUT I THINK 6000 MILES IS TOO LONG WITH THE SPYDER, BECAUSE OF THE HIGH RPMS AND THE ENGINE RUNNING HOTTER. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE I LOOKED AT THE SHELL 5W40 SYNTHETIC AT WALLY WORLD. I REPEAT!!! NOWHERE ON THE CONTAINER DOES IT SAY IT CAN BE USED IN A MOTORCYCLE. AFTER LAMONT CHANGED OUT THE SHELL OIL TO "MOTORCYCLE OIL", PART OF HIS CLUTCH PROBLEM WENT AWAY.
IF YOU WANT CHEAPER SYNTHETIC MOTORCYCLE OIL, WALLY WORLD SELLS MOBIL 1 "MOTORCYCLE OIL" FOR ABOUT $8.70 A QUART.
ALSO LAMONT HOW ABOUT AN UP DATE ON YOUR CLUTCH.!!!

[Spyderman62]

I DID MY 1ST OIL CHANGE AT 1000 MILES. I USED THE BRP OIL, THATS WHAT MY DEALER SUGGESTED. THE OIL WAS REALLY DARK. MY NEXT CHANGE WILL BE AT 4000 MILES. I AM GOING TO TRY AMSOIL AS I HAVE ALWAYS HAD GOOD LUCK WITH THEIR PRODUCTS. THEY CLAIM THAT YOU CAN GO TWICE AS LONG BETWEEN CHANGES WITH THEIR OIL, BUT I THINK 6000 MILES IS TOO LONG WITH THE SPYDER, BECAUSE OF THE HIGH RPMS AND THE ENGINE RUNNING HOTTER. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE I LOOKED AT THE SHELL 5W40 SYNTHETIC AT WALLY WORLD. I REPEAT!!! NOWHERE ON THE CONTAINER DOES IT SAY IT CAN BE USED IN A MOTORCYCLE. AFTER LAMONT CHANGED OUT THE SHELL OIL TO "MOTORCYCLE OIL", PART OF HIS CLUTCH PROBLEM WENT AWAY.
IF YOU WANT CHEAPER SYNTHETIC MOTORCYCLE OIL, WALLY WORLD SELLS MOBIL 1 "MOTORCYCLE OIL" FOR ABOUT $8.70 A QUART.
ALSO LAMONT HOW ABOUT AN UP DATE ON YOUR CLUTCH.!!!
I stand firm about the " for motorcycles use" application on oil. And sounds like Lamonster knows all to well also. I personally will be using AMSOIL. I have used their product or over 8 years, and like someone else said, they have a warrany to back up their claims. They also make very good filters, but may not yet have one for the Spyder. I will also extend the oil change interval to around 4500. The high revs don't make oil dirty so much. The wear of parts, and the seal at the piston rings and valve seat and guides make the oil get the dirty the fastest. Of course, unless the oil is analyzed, changing the oil because it looks dark is a bad and expensive habit. It can look dark in as early as 250 miles after changing it. So from my humble corner of Spyderworld, I will make this recommendation: Use a high quality oil from a MAJOR oil co available at ANY motorcycle shop. I would recommend against any oil that has the motorcycle brand name on it, as NO motorcycle company makes oil. Lastly, BRP CAN NOT VOID your warranty if you use another brand of motorcycle rated oil. And here is why - The market is open in this area. For a manufacturer to insist on using their oil, they would have to provide the oil at no charge. They do not do that, so they have to allow the consumer to use whatever brand of oil they choose.....as long as it meets the criteria of their motorcycle. All motorcycle oil does to my knowledge. I expect more on this thread, but this is how we learn and prevail right? Thanks for the question. By the way, anything I have said that is on the controversial side, I can provide documented proof to back up the comment.

[bjt]

I stand firm about the " for motorcycles use" application on oil. And sounds like Lamonster knows all to well also. I personally will be using AMSOIL. I have used their product or over 8 years, and like someone else said, they have a warrany to back up their claims. They also make very good filters, but may not yet have one for the Spyder. I will also extend the oil change interval to around 4500. The high revs don't make oil dirty so much. The wear of parts, and the seal at the piston rings and valve seat and guides make the oil get the dirty the fastest. Of course, unless the oil is analyzed, changing the oil because it looks dark is a bad and expensive habit. It can look dark in as early as 250 miles after changing it. So from my humble corner of Spyderworld, I will make this recommendation: Use a high quality oil from a MAJOR oil co available at ANY motorcycle shop. I would recommend against any oil that has the motorcycle brand name on it, as NO motorcycle company makes oil. Lastly, BRP CAN NOT VOID your warranty if you use another brand of motorcycle rated oil. And here is why - The market is open in this area. For a manufacturer to insist on using their oil, they would have to provide the oil at no charge. They do not do that, so they have to allow the consumer to use whatever brand of oil they choose.....as long as it meets the criteria of their motorcycle. All motorcycle oil does to my knowledge. I expect more on this thread, but this is how we learn and prevail right? Thanks for the question. By the way, anything I have said that is on the controversial side, I can provide documented proof to back up the comment.

Thanks. I have been thinking this way also but without your knowledge to back it up. Others on the forums have had similar recommendations but I believe you are the first to say that there is a difference between a motorcycle oil and a car / diesel oil of the same rating. Makes great sense to me. Unless I come into millions $$$$, I am in this with my current Spyder for the long haul and I want to give myself the best chance of it lasting for many, many years.

[NancysToy]

Use a high quality oil from a MAJOR oil co available at ANY motorcycle shop. I would recommend against any oil that has the motorcycle brand name on it, as NO motorcycle company makes oil. Lastly, BRP CAN NOT VOID your warranty if you use another brand of motorcycle rated oil.
I will play the devil's advocate here and point out that there does not currently seem to be any motorcycle oil on the market that meets BRPs viscosity spec of 5W-40. Use an alternate weight of oil at your own risk, warranty-wise. The burden of proof will be on you in the instance of major engine or transmission failure. That being said, I agree on the use of labeled motorcycle oils.
-Scotty

[bjt]

I will play the devil's advocate here and point out that there does not currently seem to be any motorcycle oil on the market that meets BRPs viscosity spec of 5W-40. Use an alternate weight of oil at your own risk, warranty-wise. The burden of proof will be on you in the instance of major engine or transmission failure. That being said, I agree on the use of labeled motorcycle oils.
-Scotty

Agreed. Kind of puts us between a rock and a hard place, doesn't it. :D My dealer used Spectro brand oil on my first service and I've used it on the two oil changes that I've done. They use Spectro Blue, non-synthetic, but I believe it comes in 5W-40. Their reasoning for using Spectro oils is that they have used it for years in many high performance engines and it hasn't failed them yet AND it is cheaper than the BRP oil.

[Spyderman62]

I will play the devil's advocate here and point out that there does not currently seem to be any motorcycle oil on the market that meets BRPs viscosity spec of 5W-40. Use an alternate weight of oil at your own risk, warranty-wise. The burden of proof will be on you in the instance of major engine or transmission failure. That being said, I agree on the use of labeled motorcycle oils.
-Scotty
I will have to check to see what weight oil is available from AMSOIL. You may be right about other oils not being available in that weight range. Normally you will see 0 or 5 W 20 ish on car engines, and up till now, 10 w30 on motorcycles. I do like the post after yours about the Spectra oils. Again, any quality motorycle oil having the 5W40 weight class should be safe. The quest continues huh?

[Putt-Putt]

I have used car oils (Valvoline) for decades with motorcycles and never ever have I had a problem with an engine or trans. due to oil. This includes several different bike brands- high performance Drag racing and at least a few hundred thousand miles. Shell Rotella is rated for severe use in diesels witch puts a lot more stress on oil than a gas engine. I think this is a lot of scare tactics to get you to use the more expensive oil. They want you to use the more expensive oil to make more money. Just look at the gas prices mostly all political reasons for increases. Just mention motorcycles or marine and the price takes a jump. We have pulled stock engines apart for drag racing that have been using car rated oil to modify for racing with No abnormal wear from those used with motorcycle rated oil. Do you see any service ratings on the oil container from say Shell Rotella that are different than on BRP oil or any motorcycle oil? If you use the same rated oil whats the difference?:spyder:

[bjt]

...If you use the same rated oil whats the difference?:spyder:

The "secret" ingredients. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Thinking/thinking-017.GIF

[Way2Fast]

I wouldn't use XP-S (BRP's labeled oil) if it cost $1 a gallon ! This is the same 4 stroke synthetic oil that BRP warns against using in their supercharged 4-tec Sea-doo personal watercraft. Using this oil in their watercraft will result in the SC clutch slipping and will void the warranty. The 4-stroke XP-S "MINERAL" oil is the only BRP motor oil approved for use in the supercharged engines. BRP speaks with a forked tongue when they say to use the synthetic XP-S in the Spyder which also has an oil lubed clutch. This oil is not a motorcycle specific oil. It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines, the mineral oil for engines with a SC clutch and the synthetic for those without superchargers.

The reason oil companies make 0W and 5W oils is to increase fuel mileage in automobiles...to be able to post a higher mpg number on the window sticker. Such "thin" oils are not as protective as a heavier weight oil, especially in warm weather operation...where most motorcycles are used. Unless you ride in zero degree weather, there is no need for a 5W oil. 10W-40 is more than sufficient and is recommended by most motorcycle manufacturers. Ever think why BRP is the only manufacturer to specify a 5W oil ???

Richard

[SpyderMark]

Oh goodie... more oil wars!


...there becomes a major difference between automotive oil, and motorcycle oil. ...the oil needs the ability to protect the engine and mostly the transmission, against the "shear" forces applied to the oil from the gears etc. These special additives are NOT found in automotive oils because they are not needed.

Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 is manufactured specifically for the diesel engine market, but the container label states it is "suitable" for use in gasoline engines. Although it may be suitable for use in gasoline engines, this is a diesel engine oil specifically formulated to handle the shear forces of diesel engines.


How then, can Shell Rotella T or any other brand of NON motorcycle rated oil, be of any value without those friction modifiers that are essential to an oil rated for motorcycles?

I think you're getting two different additive packages mixed up. One set of additives is specifically included to reduce oil break down due to shear forces. Another set of additives is included to reduce internal engine friction -- so-called "friction modifiers."

Manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils (and oils forumulated for diesel engines) say these special oils contain additives that guard against breakdown of the oil due to shear forces. Here's how:

An ordinary multi-grade automotive oil -- say 5W40 -- is a base 5 weight oil when cold. That's a pretty thin oil. When it gets hot, however, it becomes the equivalent of a 40 weight oil. How does it do that? I'm glad you asked!

Modern multi-weight oils contain special polymers that change shape with heat. When they get hot, they elongate affecting the viscosity of the oil -- in simple terms it becomes relatively thicker. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, over time, shear forces inside the engine can break these elongated polymers into smaller pieces. When that happens, the smaller pieces of the broken polymers can no longer affect the oil's viscosity the way they did when they were longer, and the oil's viscosity decreases -- it becomes relatively thinner.

Manufacturers of motorcyle-specific oils claim their oils are resistant to breakdown of this sort. In fact, resistance to breakdown is one of the main marketing points for motorcycle-specific oils. But there is credible evidence suggesting there might be a lot more marketing than science in these claims. You might start here if you're inclined to a little research helping separate the facts from the hype. (http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm) You'll want to carefully read results 4 and 5 of the section titled "Preliminary Conclusions."

The fact is, oil DOES break down. In fact, a fresh multi-grade oil with a 5W40 rating may only be a 5W20 after 3,000 miles of use -- that's one of the reasons you should change the oil at the recommended interval. In fact, many manufacturers resisted the push to switch to multi-grade oils when they first became available -- a good single-grade oil DOES NOT break down due to shear forces because there are no polymers to break. Of course, there a number of other major benefits provided by multi-weight oils that outweigh (ha! I made funny!) this singular strength, especially since a simple oil change, which you must do anyway for other reasons, returns your multi-grade oil back to its full potential. But I digress...

The other additive you mentioned was friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are added to gasoline-engine oils (automotive gasoline-engine only, not motorcycle or diesel) to reduce internal engine friction. These additives are aimed at increasing fuel mileage and have nothing to due with preventing break down due to shear forces. Motorcycle manufacturers learned when these types of oils became available that the friction modifiers can interfere with clutch operation, and so recommended their customers avoid them.

API SL (and earlier) gasoline-engine oils may or may not contain friction modifiers. Those that do are labeled as "Energy Conserving." All API SM gasoline-engine oils 30 weight and below automatically contain friction modifiers as part of the new SM standard regardless of how they are labeled (heavier weight API SM oils may or may not). This change to the SM standard (the automatic inclusion of friction modifiers) is why BRP specifically warns against the use of API SM rated oils.

As I mentioned, motorcycle-specific oils do not contain these friction modifiers -- and neither does Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40, despite its API SM rating. To put it another way, since they are not specifically intended for use in gasoline engines, there is no requirement for oils marketed for diesel engines to add friction modifiers in order to meet the API SM standard.

In short, since Shell Rotella T Synthetic meets BRP viscosity specifications, is purportedly shear stable like motorcycle-specific oil and DOES NOT contain friction modifiers, I believe it is perfectly suitable for use in your Spyder's engine. I've been using it in our Spyder for 3,000+ miles with no clutch issues. In fact, I've used Shell Synthetic oil in ALL my motorcycles for years (10,000+ miles on my Triumph Tiger 1050) with no clutch issues.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, with an oil change interval of only 3,000 miles, you could probably use vegatable oil with no problems in the Spyder...

Although there is a specific prohibition regarding towing in the Spyder Operator's Guide, there is no detail explaining why (dangerous handling qualities, possible clutch problems, excessive wear on the engine, all of the above, none of the above). Let's wait until we get DATA about Lamonster's clutch before we start making guesses as to what caused it to slip.

Regards,

Mark

[SpyderMark]

It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines,

I don't see a problem with the different viscosity requirements between these machines -- lower temps require lower viscosity base oil. While I could foresee some crazy Spyder Ryder climbing on his or her machine in sub-zero weather, I think the ice might interfere with such an endeavor for the PWC enthusiast.;)

Regards,

Mark

[Spyderman62]

Oh goodie... more oil wars!



Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 is manufactured specifically for the diesel engine market, but the container label states it is "suitable" for use in gasoline engines. Although it may be suitable for use in gasoline engines, this is a diesel engine oil specifically formulated to handle the shear forces of diesel engines.



I think you're getting two different additive packages mixed up. One set of additives is specifically included to reduce oil break down due to shear forces. Another set of additives is included to reduce internal engine friction -- so-called "friction modifiers."

Manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils (and oils forumulated for diesel engines) say these special oils contain additives that guard against breakdown of the oil due to shear forces. Here's how:

An ordinary multi-grade automotive oil -- say 5W40 -- is a base 5 weight oil when cold. That's a pretty thin oil. When it gets hot, however, it becomes the equivalent of a 40 weight oil. How does it do that? I'm glad you asked!

Modern multi-weight oils contain special polymers that change shape with heat. When they get hot, they elongate affecting the viscosity of the oil -- in simple terms it becomes relatively thicker. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, over time, shear forces inside the engine can break these elongated polymers into smaller pieces. When that happens, the smaller pieces of the broken polymers can no longer affect the oil's viscosity the way they did when they were longer, and the oil's viscosity decreases -- it becomes relatively thinner.

Manufacturers of motorcyle-specific oils claim their oils are resistant to breakdown of this sort. In fact, resistance to breakdown is one of the main marketing points for motorcycle-specific oils. But there is credible evidence suggesting there might be a lot more marketing than science in these claims. You might start here if you're inclined to a little research helping separate the facts from the hype. (http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm) You'll want to carefully read results 4 and 5 of the section titled "Preliminary Conclusions."

The fact is, oil DOES break down. In fact, a fresh multi-grade oil with a 5W40 rating may only be a 5W20 after 3,000 miles of use -- that's one of the reasons you should change the oil at the recommended interval. In fact, many manufacturers resisted the push to switch to multi-grade oils when they first became available -- a good single-grade oil DOES NOT break down due to shear forces because there are no polymers to break. Of course, there a number of other major benefits provided by multi-weight oils that outweigh (ha! I made funny!) this singular strength, especially since a simple oil change, which you must do anyway for other reasons, returns your multi-grade oil back to its full potential. But I digress...

The other additive you mentioned was friction modifiers. Friction modifiers are added to gasoline-engine oils (automotive gasoline-engine only, not motorcycle or diesel) to reduce internal engine friction. These additives are aimed at increasing fuel mileage and have nothing to due with preventing break down due to shear forces. Motorcycle manufacturers learned when these types of oils became available that the friction modifiers can interfere with clutch operation, and so recommended their customers avoid them.

API SL (and earlier) gasoline-engine oils may or may not contain friction modifiers. Those that do are labeled as "Energy Conserving." All API SM gasoline-engine oils 30 weight and below automatically contain friction modifiers as part of the new SM standard regardless of how they are labeled (heavier weight API SM oils may or may not). This change to the SM standard (the automatic inclusion of friction modifiers) is why BRP specifically warns against the use of API SM rated oils.

As I mentioned, motorcycle-specific oils do not contain these friction modifiers -- and neither does Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40, despite its API SM rating. To put it another way, since they are not specifically intended for use in gasoline engines, there is no requirement for oils marketed for diesel engines to add friction modifiers in order to meet the API SM standard.

In short, since Shell Rotella T Synthetic meets BRP viscosity specifications, is purportedly shear stable like motorcycle-specific oil and DOES NOT contain friction modifiers, I believe it is perfectly suitable for use in your Spyder's engine. I've been using it in our Spyder for 3,000+ miles with no clutch issues. In fact, I've used Shell Synthetic oil in ALL my motorcycles for years (10,000+ miles on my Triumph Tiger 1050) with no clutch issues.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, with an oil change interval of only 3,000 miles, you could probably use vegatable oil with no problems in the Spyder...

Although there is a specific prohibition regarding towing in the Spyder Operator's Guide, there is no detail explaining why (dangerous handling qualities, possible clutch problems, excessive wear on the engine, all of the above, none of the above). Let's wait until we get DATA about Lamonster's clutch before we start making guesses as to what caused it to slip.

Regards,

Mark
SpyderMark I think we are saying mostly the same thing. But correct me if I am wrong...There is a difference in the oil "additives" for lack of a better technical term, that separates oil used in gasoline engine, and oil used in motorcycle engines. I am prepared ( mental exercises in progress.....) to accept that I may be wrong. And this excludes the weight ratings, or SA,SB,SC......ratings. Simply the formulation that makes an oil acceptable for use in an engine that also uses the same oil for a wet clutch and transmission. And also, this is not to make a difference between mineral or synthetic ( all three types). Of note, yes I should have stated that oils contain polymers that allow the oil to have the properties of a 0 weight to a 40 or 50 weight by their characteristics being affected by heat. And lastly, the "shear forces" of a transmission, do not exist even in a diesel engine. Wrong type of shear. I am speaking of a shear force exerted on an oil like an axle differential exerts force on a gear oil. In either case, thanks for the response to the "oil war". May we all become more wiser for it, and take more responsibility for maintaining our machines with the knowledge gained here!

[Putt-Putt]

I wouldn't use XP-S (BRP's labeled oil) if it cost $1 a gallon ! This is the same 4 stroke synthetic oil that BRP warns against using in their supercharged 4-tec Sea-doo personal watercraft. Using this oil in their watercraft will result in the SC clutch slipping and will void the warranty. The 4-stroke XP-S "MINERAL" oil is the only BRP motor oil approved for use in the supercharged engines. BRP speaks with a forked tongue when they say to use the synthetic XP-S in the Spyder which also has an oil lubed clutch. This oil is not a motorcycle specific oil. It is interesting to note that the BRP synthetic oil is 5W-40 while the BRP
mineral oil is 10W-40, yet both these oils are recommended for Rotax 4-stroke PWC engines, the mineral oil for engines with a SC clutch and the synthetic for those without superchargers.

The reason oil companies make 0W and 5W oils is to increase fuel mileage in automobiles...to be able to post a higher mpg number on the window sticker. Such "thin" oils are not as protective as a heavier weight oil, especially in warm weather operation...where most motorcycles are used. Unless you ride in zero degree weather, there is no need for a 5W oil. 10W-40 is more than sufficient and is recommended by most motorcycle manufacturers. Ever think why BRP is the only manufacturer to specify a 5W oil ???

Richard

I couldn't of said it better. As I said before with the BRP oil (5w/40) my spyder used oil. Had to add oil twice before a 3,000 mile change, Since changing to Shell Rotella 5w/40 I'm no longer using oil between oil changes.
:agree:

[SpyderMark]

But correct me if I am wrong...There is a difference in the oil "additives" for lack of a better technical term, that separates oil used in gasoline engine, and oil used in motorcycle engines. ...the formulation that makes an oil acceptable for use in an engine that also uses the same oil for a wet clutch and transmission.

AFAIK, there are no additive packages included in motorcycle oils intended to specifically aid wet-clutch operation. I've never seen any claims by a motorcycle oil manufacturer that their oil works better with a wet clutch than other oils. As mentioned, certain gasoline engine oils contain friction modifiers suspected of interfering with wet clutch operation, but there are many gasoline engine oils out there that do not. Any motor oil that meets an engine manufacturer's specifications -- assuming it does not contain friction modifiers -- will work just fine with a wet clutch.


And lastly, the "shear forces" of a transmission, do not exist even in a diesel engine. Wrong type of shear. I am speaking of a shear force exerted on an oil like an axle differential exerts force on a gear oil.

I can't speak specifically about how the shear forces of a motorcycle transmission compare to the shear forces experienced by oil in a diesel engine, but I don't think it's an important distinction. Why? Because manufacturers who market oil for diesel engines make the same claims regarding "shear stability" -- meaning they can better withstand shear forces than ordinary oil -- as manufacturers of motorcycle-specific oils. At this point it's simply a matter of degree -- is motorcyle oil MORE shear stable than diesel oil? Again, I don't think it's important. Here's why:

According to those who market it, the polymers added to motorcycle-specific oil are shear resistant. The marketing claims state these oils resist breakdown due to shear forces allowing them to maintain viscosity better than ordinary oil. However, there is more than a little evidence out there that these claims (at least for motorcycle-specific oil) are simply marketing hype. One example is the article you can read for yourself at the link in my last post.

The authors of that article independently tested and compared several different oils -- some ordinary oil, others motorcycle-specific -- after different intervals of use (800 miles, 1500 miles, etc). The data showed similar viscosity reductions between ALL petroleum based oils. In other words, the "shear-stable" motorcycle oils were no better at maintaining viscosity over time and use than ordinary oils. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Of particular note, the testing found the greatest reduction in viscosity occurred over the first 800 miles of use. Which makes sense to me; you can only chop up those polymers so much, eventually the pieces are too small to chop any smaller and the viscosity stabilizes. Perhaps the 3,000 mile change interval specified by BRP doesn't seem so crazy...

Also of interest in the article, synthetic oils (even those without supposed shear-stable polymers) were FAR BETTER at maintaining viscosity than motorcycle-specific petroleum oil, and the difference between synthetic oils with and without those supposed shear-stable polymers was not statistically significant. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

The authors of the article approached the manufacturers of the tested oils asking them to review the data and respond to the obvious conclusion. They weren't able to get a straight answer from any of them. In my mind, that places in question the validity of manufacturers' claims that motorcycle-specific oils are shear stable. Interestingly (and disturbingly, if not surprisingly), a careful read of the marketing claims shows shear stability is really the ONLY supposed benefit provided by motorcycle-specific oil above any other high-quality motor oil which meets an engine manufacturer's specifications.

Since marketing claims they hold up better under the hard use seen in motorcycle transmissions remain questionable (at least in my mind), I can see no benefits to using motorcycle-specific oils -- especially since they cost so much more.

Just to be safe though, I'll continue to use shear-stable Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40. I'll get all the benefits of a synthetic oil, and shear stability (whatever that means) as well. Besides, I'm sure Shell's marketers use the term "shear stable" in the same spirit as the marketers of motorcycle-specific oils -- they just do it more cheaply...;)

Regards,

Mark

[Spyderman62]

SpyderMark - thanks for the reply - I agree that the manufactures make a lot of "advertising claims" that when put under scrutiny, are nothing more than $100 claims of nothing. It is now time for me to dig through some paperwork and find the info concerning oil and the stuff that makes one brand/type better or lesser than another. I appreciate the info posted. Will be back on this subject soon.

[BAZMAN]

THE ONLY REFERENCE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THE FACT!! THAT WHEN LAMONT CHANGED THE OIL WHILE ON HIS TRIP, THE SLIPPING WAS REDUCED SO HE COULD CONTINUE AND FINISH HIS TRIP. IF IT WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRAILER THE FULL PROBLEM WOULD HAVE CONTINUED.
THIS IS THE ONLY INFO WE HAVE AT THIS TIME.
HOPEFULLY LAMONT WILL HAVE AN ANSWER SOON.
BUT I DOUBT HE WILL BE USING SHELL OIL ANYTIME SOON.

[Putt-Putt]

I did a research study on oils a couple of years ago and this is what I came up with. In order best oils period.
1. Red Line
2. Golden Spectro
3. BMW brand oil
4. regular; Spectro
5. Ams-Oil

I'm still going to use Shell Rotella, but if not available I will use Valvoline. Like I said I never had a oil related problem with any motorcycle I ever owned, and thats been quite few of them. More than most people have owned. I think these specific marketed oils are just a bunch of hype to get in your pocket book. And as far as I'm concerned the oil companys have got way to much of mine and your money now.

[SpyderMark]

THE ONLY REFERENCE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THE FACT!! THAT WHEN LAMONT CHANGED THE OIL WHILE ON HIS TRIP, THE SLIPPING WAS REDUCED SO HE COULD CONTINUE AND FINISH HIS TRIP.

Actually, there are many facts available -- all one must do is take the time to do the research. Lamont's experience is certainly a data point, but certainly not the ONLY data point.


IF IT WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRAILER THE FULL PROBLEM WOULD HAVE CONTINUED.

I can think of a few reasons besides changing the oil that might have caused this result, but like you I would be speculating. I agree we shouldn't jump to any conclusions regarding Lamont's clutch until we have ALL the facts...

Regards,

Mark

[Putt-Putt]

I ran into one of the guys here in my area that has a spyder. I met him about a month and a half ago at which time he said he just picked up his spyder. I have not seen him on it, and I figured I would because this is a very small community 2,600 people. I asked him don't you ride your spyder much. He said it's been in the shop a few times and he just got it back. He said once it just wouldn't start; second time the clutch went out and had to have it replaced. He's only got a little over 400 miles on it. And obviously it had the BRP oil in it at that time. He said he has not gotten on it at all, following The BRP recommended break in procedure to the letter. So this is another clutch incident. Just thought this might be of interest.

[Roadkill]

I did a research study on oils a couple of years ago and this is what I came up with. In order best oils period...

+Chuckle... Snicker...

Ride on.
Roadkill

[diane0805]

Well...it's not just the extra "stuff" in the motorcycle oil...but the lack of extra stuff. Many auto oils, including the synthetics, have friction modifiers. These additives reduce engine wear and are specifically designed to gain milage. For motorcycles in which the clutch (e.g. "wet clutch") share the engine oil, these friction modifiers prevent the clutch from operating properly (excessive slip) and MAY even cause damage. That being said...it is not generally advisable to use a synthetic auto oil, like 10W-40 as a replacement for the same weight motorcyle oil - 10W-40. Motorcyle oils should indicate "JASO MA" certification, and should be absent the friction certification (i can't remember the acronym)