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vnmous1
07-16-2008, 07:45 AM
(for those of you on other forums, sorry for the dual posting)
Checked the oil at 500 miles and was down a little over a half quart. Anyone else have similar usage at that point? My guess is that it is down that much based on the first 300 miles; Detroit to Chicago in about 6 hours. Lots of 55/65/75 mph varying and stops for 30 min or more about every 1.5 hours. Max rpm was about 5k for the first 200 miles, up to 6.5k after that to about 400 miles. Probably not enough pressure to seat the rings, but enough that there won't be any long term probs. After 500, some low load trips to 8k through the first couple of gears.

In any case, I topped it off and will have 1st maint done prior to 700.

Oh...one other quick thing...the Spyder is actually my wifes and I had her out for lessons tonight. She did great and felt confident. Her first time with a bike with gears. So, I decided to measure off the turning radius so she can talk with the license examiner and explain to him/her why hers is huge compared to the 2-wheeled 250s. I got 24 ft!!! Yowsah!

I was doing some full-lock acellerating turns and actually starved the thing. I was stunned that I could do that with injection but it was pulling more Gs than a conventional bike would. It wasn't the tank pickup as I had a half tank. Anyone else starved one??

Thanks

bj

beerman
07-16-2008, 07:57 AM
Perhaps you were not starving it, I beleive it was the traction and stability control working. They do that when they sense rear tire slipage while turning. I a straight line you can melt the rear tire if you want but not while turning.

BRPjunkie
07-16-2008, 07:58 AM
Probably not starving it out, but VSS kicking in.

bjeffrey
07-16-2008, 08:17 AM
At 3200 miles I've been noticing my mpg decreasing so I pulled the Spyder 1/2 into the garage. Checked tire pressure..okay, pulled the side cover off and pulled the oil dipstick out...NOTHING. Wiped it off ..screwed it back in, pulled it out (okay cut with the jokes)....Nothing. Dealership was closed so I ran up to the local auto parts store and picked up some 10w40 synthetic cycle oil, they didn't have the 5w40. I had to add almost a full quart.

I was set to take a 2 hr highway trip on the bike up to Midland, Mi for a job interview the next day, if I hadn't checked the oil that could have been bad.

I'm still thinking I was shorted on the initial 600 mile oil change / checkup at the dealership. Am I wrong? could this be using that much oil?

sabunim5
07-16-2008, 08:28 AM
bjeffrey, You could have burnt some oil in that many miles. You may also be losing some of the oil through the crankcase breather into the airbox. If so, it drains out of the airbox on the front right side. Pull your front right panels and see if there is oil that has dripped out of the right front of the airbox. It has been a common problem. I reported it to my dealer.
sabunim5

bjeffrey
07-16-2008, 08:46 AM
Thanks sabunim5 I will check the airbox. I know now I need to check the oil level more often. My dealership is backed up a week for Spyder work (so they say) so I'll be changing the oil myself.

NancysToy
07-16-2008, 01:27 PM
[quote=vnmous1;41468I was doing some full-lock acellerating turns and actually starved the thing. I was stunned that I could do that with injection but it was pulling more Gs than a conventional bike would. It wasn't the tank pickup as I had a half tank. Anyone else starved one??
[/quote]
Are you sure it just wasn't the VSS kicking in? Fuel injection shouldn't starve.
-Scotty

SpyderMark
07-16-2008, 08:46 PM
At 3200 miles I've been noticing my mpg decreasing so I pulled the Spyder 1/2 into the garage. Checked tire pressure..okay, pulled the side cover off and pulled the oil dipstick out...NOTHING.

You didn't mention whether the engine was up to operating temp, or if you followed the FULL procedure for checking the oil. I know it may seem crazy, but there is a specific procedure for checking the oil that if not followed can result in inaccurate readings.

From page 82 of the Spyder Operator's Guide:

NOTICE:

To obtain a precise reading of the engine oil level, follow this procedure and make sure engine is at normal operating temperature.


1. Park the vehicle on a firm, level surface.
2. Start the engine and let it run at idle for at least 30 seconds.
3. Stop the engine.
4. Remove the left middle side panel.
5. Unscrew and remove oil dipstick.
6. Wipe the dipstick clean.
7. Reinstall and screw in the dipstick completely.
8. Again, unscrew and remove the dipstick.
9. Check the oil level on the dipstick. It should be near or equal to the upper mark.


Regards,


Mark

bjt
07-16-2008, 09:11 PM
I'm curious, SpyderMark or anyone else, how much variance can there be if you check the oil on a level surface with the engine cold? Is it just a matter of a few mils on the dipstick or the difference between showing full and showing empty?

vnmous1
07-16-2008, 09:12 PM
I think you guys are right...probably stability control. As I said...I've been taking up the rev range now (turned 600 tonight) so I'll see what usage looks like once I've had the service done and now that I've started to stand on it a bit.

b j

SpyderMark
07-17-2008, 07:36 AM
I'm curious, SpyderMark or anyone else, how much variance can there be if you check the oil on a level surface with the engine cold? Is it just a matter of a few mils on the dipstick or the difference between showing full and showing empty?
That's a good question -- I've never checked! My assumption, based on all the hoopla in the manual and on the label, is BRP determined the difference to be significant.

I've been wondering if this might have anything to do with the problems some have seen with oil in the crankcase breather tube going to the airbox. The Lycoming O-320 installed in our AA-5 (it's an airplane) was very fussy about the oil level. The manual said between four and eight quarts, but if you put in anything over six she would just spit it out the crankcase vent... and all over the belly -- what a mess!

I'll check the wifey's Spyder when I get home from work tonight to see where it checks when cold (I know it checked full after our last ryde).

Regards,

Mark

Way2Fast
07-17-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm curious, SpyderMark or anyone else, how much variance can there be if you check the oil on a level surface with the engine cold? Is it just a matter of a few mils on the dipstick or the difference between showing full and showing empty?

The reason BRP tells you to check the oil after running the engine is because the Spyder uses a dry sump lubrication system. When oil is allowed to sit in the storage tank for a length of time (as in a cold engine) there is a chance that the tank valve might leak and allow oil to drain out of the storage tank and go back into the engine. If this happens, the dipstick will show a false reading. Adding oil will overfill the system. To my knowledge the manufacturers of ALL dry sump engines instruct you to check oil soon after shutting the engine off to get the most accurate reading.

Richard

SpyderMark
07-18-2008, 06:55 AM
I'm curious, SpyderMark or anyone else, how much variance can there be if you check the oil on a level surface with the engine cold? Is it just a matter of a few mils on the dipstick or the difference between showing full and showing empty?

OK, I usually check the oil in Wifey's Spyder after we get back from a ride. Last time I checked (last weekend) level was right at the full mark on the dipstick. BTW, her Spyder hasn't used ANY oil since I did the break in and initial oil change (2,000+ miles).

I checked Wifey's Spyder last night when I got home; it's been sitting for a couple of days. Oil level indicated right at the add line.

I'll check it again after our next ride just to be sure, but I'm confident, at least on Wifey's Spyder, the oil level will indicate low if the SOG procedure isn't followed.

Regards,

Mark

NancysToy
07-18-2008, 08:09 AM
People have offered many suggestions as to improvements for the Spyder. Nobody has mentioned the ridiculous oil level checking procedure. They could easily weld a bung to the tank at the proper level, put a bullseye sight-glass in there, and put a small view hole in the cover. My Beemer has this, albeit for a wet sump system. It is a pain to get down on your knees to peer in the hole, but lots less trouble than removing the cover. Are you listening BRP?
-Scotty

Putt-Putt
07-18-2008, 09:46 AM
DITTO:2thumbs:

bjeffrey
07-18-2008, 10:06 AM
When I checked my oil level I had just riden home from work on it. I checked it...added 1/2 a qt, let it sit for about an hr, went back out and ran it for 30 sec or so...checked it again and had to add almost another 1/2 qt to get it to the full line. I'm changing the oil myself this weekend and will keep a close eye on it after that.

Following "proper" procedures for checking oil level I still think I was shorted oil at the initial 600 mile checkup.

trikester
07-18-2008, 11:58 AM
At about 400 miles my Spyder's oil level (checked as per instructions) is still right at the full mark. I checked it when I picked it up at the dealers (because of a previous horror story here on this forum) and it was at the full mark. So I have had no noticeable oil usage in about 400 miles.

NancysToy
07-18-2008, 01:19 PM
I checked the oil at the dealer prior to delivery, too. Actually, they insisted, and showed me the procedure. Before the 625 mile checkup (at 850 miles) it was within tolerances. After they changed the oil, it was exactly correct. At 2,200 miles or so, it is still in the same place, and has been every time I checked. I always do the check after a reasonably long ride, shut down, take off my gear and the cover, start and run 30 seconds, then shut off and check. No observable oil usage.
-Scotty

barb36jack31
07-18-2008, 02:01 PM
Just checked my oil after reading these posts. I checked it cold and the oil was in the middle of the dipstick. I then rode the machine until it was at operating temp. Pulled the panel off and checked the oil. The oil was very frothy on the dipstick, but was a bit higher on the stick than before. I still have no confidence that I am getting an accurate reading. Wish I just had a sight glass.

Jack H.

smokster
07-18-2008, 04:29 PM
The reason BRP tells you to check the oil after running the engine is because the Spyder uses a dry sump lubrication system. When oil is allowed to sit in the storage tank for a length of time (as in a cold engine) there is a chance that the tank valve might leak and allow oil to drain out of the storage tank and go back into the engine. If this happens, the dipstick will show a false reading. Adding oil will overfill the system. To my knowledge the manufacturers of ALL dry sump engines instruct you to check oil soon after shutting the engine off to get the most accurate reading.

Richard
What happens if you over flow the system a bit?

NancysToy
07-18-2008, 07:03 PM
What happens if you over flow the system a bit?
Oil level shouldn't really matter that much in a dry sump system, as long as there is sufficient oil to feed the pump, and not so much that the return overflows the tank when hot. BRPs tolerances seem to be low, though, judging from their exacting level checking procedure, and the narrow "safe" zone on the dipstick. Not sure of a reason. It does seem to be a small oil tank. Some folks have indicated oil level as the cause of excess blow-by into the air box, but I have seen nothing I would call proof of the theory. Not really that logical to me. Sure would like to hear a BRP engineer sound off on this topic for a while.
-Scotty

Way2Fast
07-18-2008, 09:26 PM
I know it's a different engine, but the oil level is very critical in the Rotax 4-tec used in Sea-doo PWC. The engine runs best with the storage tank level only up to midway on the dipstick. Fill it to the upper level and the engine looses performance/rpm.

SpyderMark
07-19-2008, 09:10 AM
When I checked my oil level I had just riden home from work on it. I checked it...added 1/2 a qt, let it sit for about an hr, went back out and ran it for 30 sec or so...checked it again and had to add almost another 1/2 qt to get it to the full line.

I wonder if a 30-second run after sitting for an hour was enough to get it to "normal operating tempurature." I know the SOG doesn't specify, but most report seeing three to four bars on the temp gage under normal circumstances. I would think that would be a good standard for "normal operating temperature."

I'm sure part of the issue regarding BRP's exacting procedure to check the oil is expansion of the fluid (oil) when it gets hot. When a fluid gets hot it expands requiring more room to store the same volume. Try filling your fuel tank on a cold morning, then let it sit all day in the hot sun. I can almost guarantee the tank will overflow as the gas expands. For the oil to get hot, the engine must run for a period of time.

Recently, I checked the oil at normal operating temp on our Spyder. The level on the dipstick indicated "full." Checked it again a few days later before starting and the level indicated "add."

Regards,

Mark

NancysToy
07-19-2008, 10:45 AM
I wonder if a 30-second run after sitting for an hour was enough to get it to "normal operating tempurature." I know the SOG doesn't specify, but most report seeing three to four bars on the temp gage under normal circumstances. I would think that would be a good standard for "normal operating temperature."
:agree::agree:


Recently, I checked the oil at normal operating temp on our Spyder. The level on the dipstick indicated "full." Checked it again a few days later before starting and the level indicated "add."

Sounds like it may be "wet-sumping" a bit, with the check valve leaking by. Not a problem if it is not excessive, either filling the sump to the point of interference with the crank or overwhelming the scavenging pump, and not draining the oil tank too low.
-Scotty

Way2Fast
07-19-2008, 11:20 AM
I wonder if a 30-second run after sitting for an hour was enough to get it to "normal operating tempurature." I know the SOG doesn't specify, but most report seeing three to four bars on the temp gage under normal circumstances. I would think that would be a good standard for "normal operating temperature."

I'm sure part of the issue regarding BRP's exacting procedure to check the oil is expansion of the fluid (oil) when it gets hot. When a fluid gets hot it expands requiring more room to store the same volume. Try filling your fuel tank on a cold morning, then let it sit all day in the hot sun. I can almost guarantee the tank will overflow as the gas expands. For the oil to get hot, the engine must run for a period of time.

Recently, I checked the oil at normal operating temp on our Spyder. The level on the dipstick indicated "full." Checked it again a few days later before starting and the level indicated "add."

Regards,

Mark

The 30 second "run" is not intended to get the oil to normal operating temperature, but rather to make sure the oil storage "dry sump" tank is filled. There might be a slight rise in oil level due to expansion when the engine is run longer, but it is not as significant as making sure the tank is at it's "operating level" when the dipstick is read.

Richard

SpyderMark
07-19-2008, 08:10 PM
The 30 second "run" is not intended to get the oil to normal operating temperature, but rather to make sure the oil storage "dry sump" tank is filled. There might be a slight rise in oil level due to expansion when the engine is run longer, but it is not as significant as making sure the tank is at it's "operating level" when the dipstick is read.

Then why does the SOG specify to ensure the engine is at operating temp before checking the oil?

Regards,

Mark

SpyderMark
07-19-2008, 08:14 PM
Sounds like it may be "wet-sumping" a bit, with the check valve leaking by. Not a problem if it is not excessive, either filling the sump to the point of interference with the crank or overwhelming the scavenging pump, and not draining the oil tank too low.

Right, that's what I thought too. That's why I think NOT following the SOG recommended oil level check procedure can lead to inaccurate readings -- and an overfilled oil sump.

Some (including me) have speculated an overfilled oil sump might lead to the excess oil winding up in the airbox via the crankcase breather tube.

Regards,

Mark

bjt
07-20-2008, 05:53 AM
From what I gather from this discussion, as long as I am sure that the correct amount of oil was put in at the oil change, there is no harm in me checking the oil with the engine cold and, as long as there is oil showing on the dipstick, believing that the level is okay. A cold level will only show less than the warm level amount, not more, correct? If I checked the oil cold and I didn't have any oil on the dipstick, I would recheck it following the proper warm engine check procedure before I added any oil.

SpyderMark
07-20-2008, 08:07 AM
From what I gather from this discussion, as long as I am sure that the correct amount of oil was put in at the oil change, there is no harm in me checking the oil with the engine cold and, as long as there is oil showing on the dipstick, believing that the level is okay.

That's assuming a "cold" check is the same for every machine, and that each machine reacts the same for a "cold" check. And then you would need to know how long after shutting down it takes for the oil to drain out of the resevoir back to the engine. Then what happens if the outside temp is 40 degrees F instead of 80 degrees F?

If you check it "cold" and no oil is showing, how would you know the difference between a situation where the oil has simply drained back to the engine, and the level is actually low? If the oil is just a little low, but enough oil has drained back to the engine, nothing would show on the stick. Would you ride it before confirming the oil level?

I believe the main reason BRP specifies a procedure is so that the conditions are the same every time you check the oil. If you take all the variables out of the equation you will get the most accurate check -- every time.

Regards,

Mark

bjt
07-20-2008, 03:05 PM
If you check it "cold" and no oil is showing, how would you know the difference between a situation where the oil has simply drained back to the engine, and the level is actually low? If the oil is just a little low, but enough oil has drained back to the engine, nothing would show on the stick.




If I checked the oil cold and I didn't have any oil on the dipstick, I would recheck it following the proper warm engine check procedure before I added any oil.


In that last part of my sentence, I mean that I would follow the BRP oil check procedure just to verify that I truly had to add any oil. I probably should have stated it that way.

I guess I'm just saying that it may be possible to verify an okay oil level without following the full BRP procedure. It won't be dead nuts accurate, but it could be good enough if you are in a hurry.

SpyderMark
07-20-2008, 06:28 PM
I guess I'm just saying that it may be possible to verify an okay oil level without following the full BRP procedure. It won't be dead nuts accurate, but it could be good enough if you are in a hurry.

I suppose if you checked enough times and got the same indications you could learn to "trust" a reading not taken by the book.

Regards,

Mark

Putt-Putt
07-20-2008, 08:42 PM
If and I say if The dry sump system is working properly Your oil will not drain back into the engine. I've owned several Triumphs--BSAs--Nortons-- were dry sump systems. And none of them drained back into the engine. I had to add oil twice to my spyder before oil change. But when I changed oil only 4 qts of oil came out.

SpyderMark
07-21-2008, 07:50 AM
I had to add oil twice to my spyder before oil change. But when I changed oil only 4 qts of oil came out.

Putt-Putt, I'm curious, have you noticed any oil in your airbox?

Regards,

Mark

Putt-Putt
07-21-2008, 08:23 AM
Yes the air box did have oil in it. You'd think that if that much oil was going in the air box you'd have blue smoke from the exhaust. But i don't, and no leaks on the garage floor. :dontknow:

SpyderMark
07-21-2008, 12:12 PM
Yes the air box did have oil in it. You'd think that if that much oil was going in the air box you'd have blue smoke from the exhaust. But i don't, and no leaks on the garage floor. :dontknow:

How much oil did you add between changes?

Regards,

Mark

Putt-Putt
07-21-2008, 06:15 PM
About 2 qts.---Had to fill two times @ 1,200 and 2,600 miles just ticking bottom of dip stick. Last 400 miles put oil level down about 1/4 of the way from top fill mark. So it went though quite a bit of oil.

SpyderMark
07-22-2008, 08:32 AM
About 2 qts.---Had to fill two times @ 1,200 and 2,600 miles just ticking bottom of dip stick. Last 400 miles put oil level down about 1/4 of the way from top fill mark. So it went though quite a bit of oil.

Hmmmmmm. I think you mentioned in another thread you switched to Shell Rotella T 5W40 Synthetic and your oil consumption ended?

Regards,

Mark

Putt-Putt
07-22-2008, 08:46 AM
You are correct. And so far with the Shell oil it has not used any oil in 1,500 miles. I got got my fingers crossed hope it stays that way.

SpyderMark
07-22-2008, 11:53 AM
You are correct. And so far with the Shell oil it has not used any oil in 1,500 miles.

As Arte Johnson used to say, "Veddy Eentrestink." I wonder if it had more to do with the engine finally breaking in than the switch to different oil. I can't imagine why a different oil would make that much difference... :dontknow:

Regards,

Mark

Putt-Putt
07-22-2008, 12:20 PM
Makes two of us. :dontknow:

barb36jack31
07-22-2008, 05:14 PM
What a pain in the butt! In 60+ years of riding, this is the most complicated protocol for checking the oil that I have seen. It is like counting the **** and dividing by four to see how many cows are in the pasture.

NancysToy
07-22-2008, 05:46 PM
What a pain in the butt! In 60+ years of riding, this is the most complicated protocol for checking the oil that I have seen. It is like counting the **** and dividing by four to see how many cows are in the pasture.
:agree: Don't forget to hold your mouth right, either.