Can we talk about tire pressure

[Magdave]

Just a reminder that with the temps falling it is a good time to check your tire pressure. When for an hour ride today and still had some instability over 65mph :mad: When I got home and let things cool down I checked my pressures. I have not checked them in 1 month but here is what I found Frt 14psi rear 24.5psi. A month ago they were Frt 18 rear 28. Could that be a factor in my squirrelly 65+ situation? Cooler temps always cause pressures to drop. Now the discussion. I have been driving Corvettes for over 10yrs in fact traded my '98 for the Spyder and found that using nitrogen instead of air had some benefit to it.
1. Air(oxygen) can and does weep through rubber.
2. Nitrogen does not

I know a lot of people say nitrogen is snake oil but my experience tells me differently. With air after a long drive my tire pressures were usually 4-5lbs higher when they were hot. With Nitrogen it was usually 2-3 lbs. With air every fall I had to add air because the TPMS would start yelling at me. I ran year round with nitrogen and cold tire pressure remained the same. Nitrogen molecules are larger that some of the gasses(oxygen) in air that weep through rubber. That is the scientific reason it does not weep as much. We all know racers use nitrogen because it simply is more stable and predictable for hot tires. Since we have 2 ply crappy tires I would assume they may weep even more. Yes I know air is 79% nitrogen but that 21% can and does shrink more with lower temps than pure Nitrogen does. I am considering going to full nitrogen on my Spyder and wonder if anyone else has and what results were?
Thanks for your thoughtful replies :thumbup:

[NancysToy]

No comment on the nitrogen, but if you checked your tires after a ride, even after a cool-down, you may wish to check them again in the morning. Tires should be checked cold, and it takes them a long time to reach ambient temperatures...especially tires as big as those the Spyder uses. JMHO

[Magdave]

No comment on the nitrogen, but if you checked your tires after a ride, even after a cool-down, you may wish to check them again in the morning. Tires should be checked cold, and it takes them a long time to reach ambient temperatures...especially tires as big as those the Spyder uses. JMHO

No I checked them cold 10hrs after the ride and they were set at the previous pressures cold but the ambient was 10-15deg higher at the time. I actually set them .5lbs higher than my 18/28 because I know the temps will be dropping in the next week or two.

[Jlbrandt]

Dealer told me to use nitrogen in rear tire. He says they are seeing better tire wear.

[DJFaninTN]

i use nitrogen in our cars and I can attest that my pressures stay constant. i've always gotten great tire wear since switching over years ago. when I finally get a spyder it will have nitrogen it all it's tires.

[Bob Denman]

Call me cheap ;); but I think that a lot of the hoopla concerning the use ot nitrogen in tires is just an excuse to sell you something...
I use the cheap nitrogen that's got a little bit of air left in it :D...and I check my pressures before hitting the road! :thumbup:

[Frank G]

I, also think you are making a big deal over nothing. Air up those crappy tires to the pressure you like and go out and ride. If not, go out and install some non crappy tires and inflate with whatever you see fit. my2$

[Bob Denman]

That two cents was worth at LEAST a nickel! :thumbup: 77568

[Magdave]

i use nitrogen in our cars and I can attest that my pressures stay constant. i've always gotten great tire wear since switching over years ago. when I finally get a spyder it will have nitrogen it all it's tires.

Ya know thinking about how quickly the rear tire wears(and usually the center) I wonder how much of that is due to the 4-5 extra lbs that air causes when hot hmmm....

[happyspyder2039]

Just a reminder that with the temps falling it is a good time to check your tire pressure. When for an hour ride today and still had some instability over 65mph :mad: When I got home and let things cool down I checked my pressures. I have not checked them in 1 month but here is what I found Frt 14psi rear 24.5psi. A month ago they were Frt 18 rear 28. Could that be a factor in my squirrelly 65+ situation? Cooler temps always cause pressures to drop. Now the discussion. I have been driving Corvettes for over 10yrs in fact traded my '98 for the Spyder and found that using nitrogen instead of air had some benefit to it.
1. Air(oxygen) can and does weep through rubber.
2. Nitrogen does not

I know a lot of people say nitrogen is snake oil but my experience tells me differently. With air after a long drive my tire pressures were usually 4-5lbs higher when they were hot. With Nitrogen it was usually 2-3 lbs. With air every fall I had to add air because the TPMS would start yelling at me. I ran year round with nitrogen and cold tire pressure remained the same. Nitrogen molecules are larger that some of the gasses(oxygen) in air that weep through rubber. That is the scientific reason it does not weep as much. We all know racers use nitrogen because it simply is more stable and predictable for hot tires. Since we have 2 ply crappy tires I would assume they may weep even more. Yes I know air is 79% nitrogen but that 21% can and does shrink more with lower temps than pure Nitrogen does. I am considering going to full nitrogen on my Spyder and wonder if anyone else has and what results were?
Thanks for your thoughtful replies :thumbup:I use it in my 11 Subaru & noticed a 2 MPG increase. Just not sure I want to spend $20 for 3 tires on spyder

[Magdave]

I use it in my 11 Subaru & noticed a 2 MPG increase. Just not sure I want to spend $20 for 3 tires on spyder
Yep that is the question. BRP should be doing it during setup IMHO.

[flaggerphil]

My dealer put nitrogen in my tires. I our race series most of the teams use nitrogen instead of "air."

That being said, every vehicle I've ever owned has had to have the tire pressure adjusted a bit over time.

[flybuddy]

Consumer reports did a study on this years back and found a 2.2 avg pressure loss in Nitro tires vs 3.5 for air (they didn't specify duration but the study lasted a year on 62 tires).
Also the nitrogen is not 100%, 93% is considered "pure" in the industry. That's only a 15% diff. Another issue is for those of us that check air monthly, how to you top off with nitro conveniently.

[samewok]

I have a TPMS on my Spyder. I love it!!!

[Flanker]

No comment on the nitrogen, but if you checked your tires after a ride, even after a cool-down, you may wish to check them again in the morning. Tires should be checked cold, and it takes them a long time to reach ambient temperatures...especially tires as big as those the Spyder uses. JMHO My thoughts, exactly.

[OldCowboy]

Nitrogen for non-racing vehicles is nothing more than snake oil for tires.

[happyspyder2039]

Nitrogen for non-racing vehicles is nothing more than snake oil for tires. Personal preferance- like oil,Gas, laundry detergent, Dog/Cat food, hotdogs, steaks I could go on. What works for some may not for other so

[Bob Ledford]

Dave

i have both to deal with and really don't see any advantage to nitrogen. The SRX that my wife owns has nitrogen, my Silverado has compressed Air and so does the Spyder. The Spyder requires more attention then the other two" I guess it is the OEM Kenda Tires?

[Cruzr Joe]

Just a reminder that with the temps falling it is a good time to check your tire pressure. When for an hour ride today and still had some instability over 65mph :mad: When I got home and let things cool down I checked my pressures. I have not checked them in 1 month but here is what I found Frt 14psi rear 24.5psi. A month ago they were Frt 18 rear 28. Could that be a factor in my squirrelly 65+ situation? Cooler temps always cause pressures to drop. Now the discussion. I have been driving Corvettes for over 10yrs in fact traded my '98 for the Spyder and found that using nitrogen instead of air had some benefit to it.
1. Air(oxygen) can and does weep through rubber.
2. Nitrogen does not

I know a lot of people say nitrogen is snake oil but my experience tells me differently. With air after a long drive my tire pressures were usually 4-5lbs higher when they were hot. With Nitrogen it was usually 2-3 lbs. With air every fall I had to add air because the TPMS would start yelling at me. I ran year round with nitrogen and cold tire pressure remained the same. Nitrogen molecules are larger that some of the gasses(oxygen) in air that weep through rubber. That is the scientific reason it does not weep as much. We all know racers use nitrogen because it simply is more stable and predictable for hot tires. Since we have 2 ply crappy tires I would assume they may weep even more. Yes I know air is 79% nitrogen but that 21% can and does shrink more with lower temps than pure Nitrogen does. I am considering going to full nitrogen on my Spyder and wonder if anyone else has and what results were?
Thanks for your thoughtful replies :thumbup:


"2 ply crappy tires", just curious if you did any research on your Spyder before you bought it, seems that you are unhappy with everything related to Spyders. Just a observation from this end.

Cruzr Joe, a Happy Spyder Owner





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[Bob Ledford]

My dealer put nitrogen in my tires. I our race series most of the teams use nitrogen instead of "air."

That being said, every vehicle I've ever owned has had to have the tire pressure adjusted a bit over time.


racers also use nitrogen for another reason.... It is portable, cheap and high pressure for air tools and the adjusting of tire pressures for track conditions

[bruiser]

I'll dive in here. The biggest reason for nitrogen use in tires is deterioration. Water in air reacts with rubber compounds and corrodes metal rims and any exposed cord steel inside the tire. Water is present in compressed air, that's why there are drains on compressors. Some shops don't do a good job of keeping water out of the compressed air. That water is carried right through the lines and hose direct to the tire. Once in there, it stays. One of the best things to do before filling/topping off a tire is to press the valve stem on the air chuck, if mist comes out, there's water in the line. I can tell you from fact, I have taken tires off rims and have had as much as a pint of water come out of the tire. Sometimes more. Too, there is a procedure to follow if putting nitrogen in tires that have previously been filled with air. The tires must go through a nitrogen/air purge. This is normally done three times before the final fill with nitrogen. Newly mounted tires are not subject to this procedure, unless air is used for the preliminary mounting. Another consideration. The tire dealer should have a system that generates 100% nitrogen. This system is expensive hence the high cost of nitrogen fills.

Bottom line, if you're going to replace the air with nitrogen, it has to be done properly with the purge procedure. If not, you're wasting you're money.

I have nitrogen in my truck tires. It was put in when I had the new tires mounted. I haven't noticed much change ant change in fuel mileage. I have noticed a better ride. I have had them topped off twice in two years. The tire dealer does not charge for top off. They also have the 100% nitrogen system. Would I put it in our Spyders. no. Because It's not worth the cost to do it properly.

JMHO.

[Magdave]

"2 ply crappy tires", just curious if you did any research on your Spyder before you bought it, seems that you are unhappy with everything related to Spyders. Just a observation from this end.

Cruzr Joe, a Happy Spyder Owner





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So you are going to defend Kenda tires now ?:roflblack: No I did not research the tires on it I though $24k would get me some decent ones though.... I paid less for my Terrain. Right now I am frustrated because the myriad of issue mine is having so glad yours is so good have fun riding.

[Magdave]

:thumbup:
I'll dive in here. The biggest reason for nitrogen use in tires is deterioration. Water in air reacts with rubber compounds and corrodes metal rims and any exposed cord steel inside the tire. Water is present in compressed air, that's why there are drains on compressors. Some shops don't do a good job of keeping water out of the compressed air. That water is carried right through the lines and hose direct to the tire. Once in there, it stays. One of the best things to do before filling/topping off a tire is to press the valve stem on the air chuck, if mist comes out, there's water in the line. I can tell you from fact, I have taken tires off rims and have had as much as a pint of water come out of the tire. Sometimes more. Too, there is a procedure to follow if putting nitrogen in tires that have previously been filled with air. The tires must go through a nitrogen/air purge. This is normally done three times before the final fill with nitrogen. Newly mounted tires are not subject to this procedure, unless air is used for the preliminary mounting. Another consideration. The tire dealer should have a system that generates 100% nitrogen. This system is expensive hence the high cost of nitrogen fills.

Bottom line, if you're going to replace the air with nitrogen, it has to be done properly with the purge procedure. If not, you're wasting you're money.

I have nitrogen in my truck tires. It was put in when I had the new tires mounted. I haven't noticed much change ant change in fuel mileage. I have noticed a better ride. I have had them topped off twice in two years. The tire dealer does not charge for top off. They also have the 100% nitrogen system. Would I put it in our Spyders. no. Because It's not worth the cost to do it properly.

JMHO.
Exactly my experience with my Vettes and I forgot to mention the water part it caused my chromed rims to bubble on the beads causing leaks which is why I went nitro to begin with thanks for sharing good info:thumbup:

[Bob Denman]

Other than the fact that they're only a two-ply tire; what's wrong with the oem Kendas?? :dontknow:
Are they sneaking out at night to steal from other houses in your neighborhood?
Are they adicted to painkillers?
Are they cheating on their income taxes?

You've been rather non-specifc; what's up??

[bruiser]

Mine just leave rice on the garage floor. :joke:

[Magdave]

Other than the fact that they're only a two-ply tire; what's wrong with the oem Kendas?? :dontknow:
Are they sneaking out at night to steal from other houses in your neighborhood?
Are they adicted to painkillers?
Are they cheating on their income taxes?

You've been rather non-specifc; what's up??
:roflblack: Uh the fact that they are 2 ply is enough. How about a 3-5k life on the rear that is just unacceptable in a world that has Kuhmo's that will go 50k and cost less?

[bruiser]

2 ply. That's why I had to replace the rear tire on my RTS when it went flat a few months back. I drove at a very slow speed probably 1/3 mile to a parking lot and the inside of the tire was toast by the time I stopped. I drove 1/2 mile on a flat tire on my fully loaded work van. All it needed was a plug and air and It was good to go.

[Bob Denman]

I haven't heard of anybody going 50,000 miles on a Kumho yet...
Sorry Dave; you get the Bull:cus: card thrown for that one. :gaah:
Even I got 7,000 miles out the OEM, and only 8,000 out of the Falken that I tried next...
The front tires had 17,000 miles on them... They were almost ready for replacement, but could have been stretched to 20,000 miles.

I don't like the idea of a two-ply tire either; but calling it junk without factual data or more information is just... inflammatory. :gaah:

[NancysToy]

I'll dive in here. The biggest reason for nitrogen use in tires is deterioration. Water in air reacts with rubber compounds and corrodes metal rims and any exposed cord steel inside the tire. Water is present in compressed air, that's why there are drains on compressors. Some shops don't do a good job of keeping water out of the compressed air. That water is carried right through the lines and hose direct to the tire. Once in there, it stays. One of the best things to do before filling/topping off a tire is to press the valve stem on the air chuck, if mist comes out, there's water in the line. I can tell you from fact, I have taken tires off rims and have had as much as a pint of water come out of the tire. Sometimes more. Too, there is a procedure to follow if putting nitrogen in tires that have previously been filled with air. The tires must go through a nitrogen/air purge. This is normally done three times before the final fill with nitrogen. Newly mounted tires are not subject to this procedure, unless air is used for the preliminary mounting. Another consideration. The tire dealer should have a system that generates 100% nitrogen. This system is expensive hence the high cost of nitrogen fills.

Bottom line, if you're going to replace the air with nitrogen, it has to be done properly with the purge procedure. If not, you're wasting you're money.

I have nitrogen in my truck tires. It was put in when I had the new tires mounted. I haven't noticed much change ant change in fuel mileage. I have noticed a better ride. I have had them topped off twice in two years. The tire dealer does not charge for top off. They also have the 100% nitrogen system. Would I put it in our Spyders. no. Because It's not worth the cost to do it properly.

JMHO.
Good explanation. The water in the air is really the biggest enemy, especially as far as wheel corrosion and tire deterioration is concerned. Few gas stations, home garages, or even tire shops go to the expense and trouble of installing air driers. Those can do a good job, but are typically restriced to instrumentation and pneumatic controls systems, where the water can wreak real havoc. They are also used where air is compressed into high pressure cylinders, to prevent corrosion to the cylinders, and to avoid other problems. Instead of nitrogen, bottled air is often a good alternative, just because it is dry.

The nitrogen purge procedure is seldom used, from what I have seen, but is quite essential. In addition, overfilling the hot tires is a good idea, so they can be bled down to the proper cold pressure when they are cool. You can't drive to the tire shop and keep them cool, and taking them off and taking them to the tire store is a lot of work. Probably easier to just check your tire pressure frequently as an alternative. JMHO

[Magdave]

I haven't heard of anybody going 50,000 miles on a Kumho yet...
Sorry Dave; you get the Bull:cus: card thrown for that one. :gaah:
Even I got 7,000 miles out the OEM, and only 8,000 out of the Falken that I tried next...
The front tires had 17,000 miles on them... They were almost ready for replacement, but could have been stretched to 20,000 miles.

I don't like the idea of a two-ply tire either; but calling it junk without factual data or more information is just... inflammatory. :gaah:

http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComments=y&commentStatus=P&tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+AST&fromTireDetail=true&partnum=25HR5EAST&tirePageLocQty=%26partnum%3D25HR5EAST

Click all reviews and by mileage nuff said except I know Falkens suck why do you thing they are the cheapest on the market. I used Kumhos on my Vettes plus they come with a warranty.

http://www.ehow.com/info_12161014_fourply-rated-tires-mean-motorcycle.html

[bruiser]

I agree Scotty. That's what is used for firefighter SCBA and some dive tanks. I say some because dive tanks can contain other mixtures.

[flaggerphil]

I've got 10,000 miles on my OEM rear tire it's going just fine.

[Cruzr Joe]

9000 on mine and it needed replacing

Cruzr Joe


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[Bob Denman]

http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComments=y&commentStatus=P&tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+AST&fromTireDetail=true&partnum=25HR5EAST&tirePageLocQty=%26partnum%3D25HR5EAST

Click all reviews and by mileage nuff said except I know Falkens suck why do you thing they are the cheapest on the market. I used Kumhos on my Vettes plus they come with a warranty.

http://www.ehow.com/info_12161014_fourply-rated-tires-mean-motorcycle.html

You're trying to compare mileage with cages, to what we can get with Spyders... :lecturef_smilie:

[Magdave]

You're trying to compare mileage with cages, to what we can get with Spyders... :lecturef_smilie:
It has to be better than a crappy 2 ply balloon tire :roflblack:

[NancysToy]

I very much suspect BRP did the 2-ply tire for a couple of reasons. Weight would be one. On a light vehicle like the Spyder it is important to keep the unsprung weight to a minimum. Thicker, stiffer tires have more meat, so they weigh more. Second, they obviously desired a certain amount of sidewall flex in the tires, if you look at their recommended tire pressures. That is undoubtedly for suspension and handling reasons...although most of us run higher pressures and improve the handling with suspension mods, seeking a different level of performance than they apparemntly envisioned. All vehicles are delivered with the tires the engineers thought would do the job the way they wanted, at the price point the accountants projected. No common production vehicle I know of uses the very best, although some better ones are sometimes offered as options. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if the factories all supplied the perfect tire for every owner and application. If the Kenda doesn't suit you, so be it. Change to something else if you find something you like. That doesn't mean they are crap...just production quality tires, aimed at the masses. JMHO

[Bob Denman]

Thank you, Scotty! :agree: :2thumbs:

[Magdave]

My understanding is the Kuhmos weigh less than the Kenda. It has to be true I read it on the internet in SL. Being a GM retiree who worked in the wheel mounting room you do not want to get me started on the crappy OEM tire issues we had. It is all about the Benjamins and BRP (Kenda)is ripping us off on tire prices. The engineers also thought the 2013 changes were a good idea too:roflblack:

[bruiser]

I very much suspect BRP did the 2-ply tire for a couple of reasons. Weight would be one. On a light vehicle like the Spyder it is important to keep the unsprung weight to a minimum. Thicker, stiffer tires have more meat, so they weigh more. Second, they obviously desired a certain amount of sidewall flex in the tires, if you look at their recommended tire pressures. That is undoubtedly for suspension and handling reasons...although most of us run higher pressures and improve the handling with suspension mods, seeking a different level of performance than they apparemntly envisioned. All vehicles are delivered with the tires the engineers thought would do the job the way they wanted, at the price point the accountants projected. No common production vehicle I know of uses the very best, although some better ones are sometimes offered as options. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if the factories all supplied the perfect tire for every owner and application. If the Kenda doesn't suit you, so be it. Change to something else if you find something you like. That doesn't mean they are crap...just production quality tires, aimed at the masses. JMHO


Amen.

[AZCowboy]

I very much suspect BRP did the 2-ply tire for a couple of reasons. Weight would be one. On a light vehicle like the Spyder it is important to keep the unsprung weight to a minimum. Thicker, stiffer tires have more meat, so they weigh more. Second, they obviously desired a certain amount of sidewall flex in the tires, if you look at their recommended tire pressures. That is undoubtedly for suspension and handling reasons...although most of us run higher pressures and improve the handling with suspension mods, seeking a different level of performance than they apparemntly envisioned. All vehicles are delivered with the tires the engineers thought would do the job the way they wanted, at the price point the accountants projected. No common production vehicle I know of uses the very best, although some better ones are sometimes offered as options. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if the factories all supplied the perfect tire for every owner and application. If the Kenda doesn't suit you, so be it. Change to something else if you find something you like. That doesn't mean they are crap...just production quality tires, aimed at the masses. JMHO
I guess you were lucky not to have one of your front tires come apart inside giving you a death wobble almost wrecking the bike. Even the shop couldn't get it off the lot. You know all that safety stuff that is suppose to shut you down when something goes wrong? Well it didn't work and no alarms either. So much for all that safety system but they do go off when the outside temp is to high. RJ

[AZCowboy]

I very much suspect BRP did the 2-ply tire for a couple of reasons. Weight would be one. On a light vehicle like the Spyder it is important to keep the unsprung weight to a minimum. Thicker, stiffer tires have more meat, so they weigh more. Second, they obviously desired a certain amount of sidewall flex in the tires, if you look at their recommended tire pressures. That is undoubtedly for suspension and handling reasons...although most of us run higher pressures and improve the handling with suspension mods, seeking a different level of performance than they apparemntly envisioned. All vehicles are delivered with the tires the engineers thought would do the job the way they wanted, at the price point the accountants projected. No common production vehicle I know of uses the very best, although some better ones are sometimes offered as options. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if the factories all supplied the perfect tire for every owner and application. If the Kenda doesn't suit you, so be it. Change to something else if you find something you like. That doesn't mean they are crap...just production quality tires, aimed at the masses. JMHO
We have sharp curves up through the mtns with strong cross winds and speed limit 75 mph. On those roads you better be doing 80 plus not to be run down. With stock I was lucky to go 65 mph. With car tire on rear it was so much safer and was able to pass big trucks doing 90 plus with full control on the tail of the Harley's. A new sway bar was also a big help. Going to replace front tires with car tires 175/65 R14.

[flybuddy]

I very much suspect BRP did the 2-ply tire for a couple of reasons. Weight would be one. On a light vehicle like the Spyder it is important to keep the unsprung weight to a minimum. Thicker, stiffer tires have more meat, so they weigh more. Second, they obviously desired a certain amount of sidewall flex in the tires, if you look at their recommended tire pressures. That is undoubtedly for suspension and handling reasons...although most of us run higher pressures and improve the handling with suspension mods, seeking a different level of performance than they apparemntly envisioned. All vehicles are delivered with the tires the engineers thought would do the job the way they wanted, at the price point the accountants projected. No common production vehicle I know of uses the very best, although some better ones are sometimes offered as options. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if the factories all supplied the perfect tire for every owner and application. If the Kenda doesn't suit you, so be it. Change to something else if you find something you like. That doesn't mean they are crap...just production quality tires, aimed at the masses. JMHO

Good points BUT the engineers have made a few mistakes in their original design. Also, the decision to use 2 ply tires may not have been performance based but more of a financial one.

[Bob Denman]

That's a good point...
But can you name me ONE manufactureer of even a single product, that doesn't use financial considerations as a decision-making tool? :dontknow:
The business of business; is making money... to stay in business! :thumbup:

[Magdave]

That's a good point...
But can you name me ONE manufactureer of even a single product, that doesn't use financial considerations as a decision-making tool? :dontknow:
The business of business; is making money... to stay in business! :thumbup:

Some things you just can't skimp on to save a buck. Would you rather have Ice Milk than Ice Cream :lecturef_smilie:

[bruiser]

That's a good point...
But can you name me ONE manufactureer of even a single product, that doesn't use financial considerations as a decision-making tool? :dontknow:
The business of business; is making money... to stay in business! :thumbup:


A very true statement. Does anyone remember the Firestone/Ford debacle?

[Cruzr Joe]

do a little pre inspection before you buy a product and if you think it may be inferior in one area, replace that area and you will be happy or do not replace it and be unhappy for the life of that product.

Cruzr Joe

[Magdave]

do a little pre inspection before you buy a product and if you think it may be inferior in one area, replace that area and you will be happy or do not replace it and be unhappy for the life of that product.

Cruzr Joe
I missed the Spyder that was in the showroom with all the plastic off. If I had seen it I probably would not be here now all the engineering flaws are rather obvious when it has it's clothes off. Sorta like a woman with Spanx on :yikes:

[Richardv]

That's a good point...
But can you name me ONE manufactureer of even a single product, that doesn't use financial considerations as a decision-making tool? :dontknow:
The business of business; is making money... to stay in business! :thumbup:

So, ..... why sticking to it rather than upgrading...? 😏

Richard