What do you guys think of these pictures?

[Desert Spyder]

This guy was on the Dragon going 45 in a 15. Notice the body english and how far away from the brake pedal he is. In his own words he said he wanted to keep the bike flat around the corners. Sometimes the nanny slowed him down. I see the sports bike in a big lean approaching two cruisers. Not sure if the Spyder was with him. Then you see him approaching the car which he is obviously going to pass within seconds on a double line. Then I was thinking about those idiots in NYC who caused mayhem on the streets. I have never been on the Dragon but is this the norm there? Because if it is God help us.

[SNOOPY]

I don't know about being the norm, but there are always accidents there. Someone in a crowd is always trying to show off, whether it be in a car or a motorcycle.

It's a long enough stretch of road that you can find a spot to ride at your own pace...usually.

Unless things have changed recently. lol

[Dan McNally]

This guy was on the Dragon going 45 in a 15. Notice the body english and how far away from the brake pedal he is. In his own words he said he wanted to keep the bike flat around the corners. Sometimes the nanny slowed him down. I see the sports bike in a big lean approaching two cruisers. Not sure if the Spyder was with him. Then you see him approaching the car which he is obviously going to pass within seconds on a double line. Then I was thinking about those idiots in NYC who caused mayhem on the streets. I have never been on the Dragon but is this the norm there? Because if it is God help us.

Seems to me that sticking that leg out offsets some of the reason you lean into the curve . . . I lean into curves, but I'm gripping the saddle with my legs when I do.

[Orange monster]

I get my crazy lean on in the corners but my foot never leaves the brake pedal!:yikes: We were taking corners on the Pig Trail at 20 mph over posted speeds with no problem and no nanny intervention easily but I keep both feet on the pegs at all times! Wow is all I can say...lol

[flamingobabe]

I do believe it is Kenny Butler...he was at Owner's Event...nice guy
77337

[Illinois Boy]

This guy was on the Dragon going 45 in a 15. Notice the body english and how far away from the brake pedal he is. In his own words he said he wanted to keep the bike flat around the corners. Sometimes the nanny slowed him down. I see the sports bike in a big lean approaching two cruisers. Not sure if the Spyder was with him. Then you see him approaching the car which he is obviously going to pass within seconds on a double line. Then I was thinking about those idiots in NYC who caused mayhem on the streets. I have never been on the Dragon but is this the norm there? Because if it is God help us.


Been on the Dragon before so here are my observations:

First off; you cannot really diagnose as much as you might think from a still-photo; however I will try.

The leg extension is intended to add extra weight to the outside of the corner in the attempt to reduce wheel-lift (when the Nanny kicks-in); thus improving their speed in the corner.

Keeping one's foot near the brake pedal is necessary when skill is absent. In other words, those that are physically fit, and know their machines can move their foot away from the brake pedal as demonstrated in the photos, because they have set themselves up properly with the vehicle (in their minds).

Lastly... I didn't see anything terribly wrong with any of the positioning in the photos, given that is was a snapshot (split-second) in time. Many times, when safe, you may cross or touch the "lines" if that helps in establishing your "line" into a corner... and apparently these riders where trying their best to do the run as fast as it allowed.

Just my two-cents...

[SNOOPY]

As far as saying "you can cross the lines" when safe, that is reckless driving in Virginia and I think also in North Carolina where this was probably taken. I know the times I was on the dragon it was common knowledge there that if the cops saw you cross the line whatsoever you would get a reckless driving ticket. :shocked:

[NancysToy]

Been on the Dragon before so here are my observations:

First off; you cannot really diagnose as much as you might think from a still-photo; however I will try.

The leg extension is intended to add extra weight to the outside of the corner in the attempt to reduce wheel-lift (when the Nanny kicks-in); thus improving their speed in the corner.

Keeping one's foot near the brake pedal is necessary when skill is absent. In other words, those that are physically fit, and know their machines can move their foot away from the brake pedal as demonstrated in the photos, because they have set themselves up properly with the vehicle (in their minds).

Lastly... I didn't see anything terribly wrong with any of the positioning in the photos, given that is was a snapshot (split-second) in time. Many times, when safe, you may cross or touch the "lines" if that helps in establishing your "line" into a corner... and apparently these riders where trying their best to do the run as fast as it allowed.

Just my two-cents...
Wheels lift on the inside of a corner, not the outside!

[Chupaca]

I don't stick my leg out never had to but don't have my foot on the brake much. Between downshifting and the nanny I can get around corners pretty quick. Nanny usually kicks in way before I do...!! :thumbup:

[SilverSurfer]

Yeee-hawwww! Nice ST.


:yes:

[chuck gross]

It loks to me like the rider may have very short legs. I can usually hang a cheek and keep my foot on the brake

[Desert Spyder]

Well, we seem to be evenly divided on this. There is a thrill for sure about taking corners hard but at 3X the speed limit on the Dragon, maybe its just me but it sounds foolish. You just don't know whats around the corner no matter how good of a rider you are. I probably wouldn't have said anything until I saw that leg way out where it don't belong. I haven't been in the cycle scene for a long time, since 2008. Probably have 60,000 mi on two bikes, most of that straight roads. In the EMS I have seen the results of small machine vs big machine. Not pretty. Even small machine vs nothing but the asphalt. As a Spyder owner I argue on the side of common sense, safety, and being good stewards of the road AND our specific machine. How many times have you read on SL about the personalities of HD owners and speed bikes then we turn around and do the same damn thing they are doing? I am sure Mr. Butler is a very nice guy. He didn't seem too argumentative on our FB thread while explaining what he was doing along with his experience. His friends, however, were more defensive and at least one of them was an owner. My son-in-law is a quadriplegic. I would hate to see anyone else live that kind of life, or worse.

[ARtraveler]

I think I am going to leave the Dragon to better drivers and with more experience than I. I don't want to be in a place where a large % of drivers are driving beyond their abilities. That can lead to bad things.

[otter28169]

At 275 pounds I weigh about 1/3 of what my RS-S does. I "hang ham" at times in the corners because it helps to keep my body more comfortable and allow me better leverage on the controls while coming out of the apex. It may, or may not, help the spyder by moving more weight to the inside of the corner, and getting that weight closer to the pavement. Everybody on the road is dangerous, we all have bad habits. People whom choose to doddle along going slower than the flow of traffic on an interstate, blocking two lanes of traffic in an effort to overtake another vehicle while staying right at the speed limit, are just as dangerous as speeders. These vehicles cause cars to get into big packs. Then when someone does something stupid, there is a 40 car pile up (just like in NASCAR at Daytona or Talladega). Personally, I would not have bought an ST if I wanted to ride hard like that. It does seem kinda silly to not have the sport model.

Just sayin'..............

[sledmaster]

We have two things going on here, the rider leaning into the corners and that of the leg lift. For those of you who are familiar with riding a snowmobile, leaning is required, not optional, to take a corner with any amount of speed and keep the inside ski on the ground. In these photos, the rider is actually leaning a very small amount. When I choose to ride a Spyder like a sled it is to keep the inside wheel down and I lean way further than what we see here in these photos. The second issue is that of the leg up in the air on two of the photos. This is most curious. I agree with the observation the rider must have short legs. Either that or he is just having fun with us and showing off. Nobody I know rides like that, I would chalk it up as an exhibitionist. But to suggest somebody is at their limits because they are leaning slightly is not accurate. This guy is really barely leaning at all. Again, anyone familiar with riding sleds knows what I be saying here. And on sleds, only the short guys with short legs really leaning out will ever have a leg up in the air. These pictures really show nothing of concern or alarm, taken at face value. IMO.

[captblack]

I have ridden with Kenny many times and he is always safe and sane. I think he was showing off for the camera and if you viewed a lot of the pictures (especially Killboy's) you see people do this all the time. Some of the women even show body parts :yikes:

Maybe you missed the picture of Lamont riding the Dragon on his RT with a wheel off the ground ...:doorag:

[Illinois Boy]

Wheels lift on the inside of a corner, not the outside!

I know that... I was saying (apparently poorly) that extending the outside leg allows extension of the body across the machine to the inside to hold down the wheel. I personally do not do that... but one could and apparently these people do.

[Illinois Boy]

As far as saying "you can cross the lines" when safe, that is reckless driving in Virginia and I think also in North Carolina where this was probably taken. I know the times I was on the dragon it was common knowledge there that if the cops saw you cross the line whatsoever you would get a reckless driving ticket. :shocked:

I might be wrong, but I didn't notice anyone across the line. One pic's wheel was on the line but not crossed over it.

As far as being reckless... probably by the letter of the law... but I wasn't talking to the letter of the law.


I did see on one picture, the line taken by the rider was wrong; but as I said, pics are hard to determine from.

[Bob Denman]

Show off for the cameras just ONE too many times... :yikes:
I don't know the guy, so I can't comment on his riding skills. Based on those photos; I'd stay far away
JMHO :dontknow:

[Desert Spyder]

My apologies to Mr. Butler in advance for any and all offense he may have feel incurred in this discussion. I don't know how tall he is, his weight, or his inseam. And I will concede that he is a much better rider than I am. You haven't been rYding unless you do it in the twisties. Regarding the center divider line, I do that all the time in the twisties but only when I can see oncoming traffic and especially when there is no black & white around. The cops are just doing their job to slow things down and prevent accidents. In the twisties, I am very cautious, especially going downhill. My wife will get mad at me if I'm too slow. On roads with steep cliffs, like the Million Dollar Hwy, I stay as far away from the edge as I can get away with so I don't have a vertigo moment or wet my Depends.Now on the straightaways, thats where I catch up. I may never have a chance to do the Dragon. But if I do I may want to ryde with Mr. Butler to learn a few things. We are never too old to learn. But we may be too stubborn sometimes to reason and understand. BTW, you HAVE to lean in order to rryde the Spyder properly. How Seth and all the other enabled ryders do what they do, I don't know. But I know my friend Seth is nuts.

[Flanker]

Been on the Dragon before so here are my observations:

First off; you cannot really diagnose as much as you might think from a still-photo; however I will try.

The leg extension is intended to add extra weight to the outside of the corner in the attempt to reduce wheel-lift (when the Nanny kicks-in); thus improving their speed in the corner.

Keeping one's foot near the brake pedal is necessary when skill is absent. In other words, those that are physically fit, and know their machines can move their foot away from the brake pedal as demonstrated in the photos, because they have set themselves up properly with the vehicle (in their minds).

Lastly... I didn't see anything terribly wrong with any of the positioning in the photos, given that is was a snapshot (split-second) in time. Many times, when safe, you may cross or touch the "lines" if that helps in establishing your "line" into a corner... and apparently these riders where trying their best to do the run as fast as it allowed.

Just my two-cents... I haven't been on the dragon, but I heartily second the rest, and add that's not much of a lean by sport bike standards (even at speed).

[daveinva]

A few items:

-- My vote goes to he's showing off. Everybody does it for the Dragon camera guys, stock practice.

-- Crossing the double-yellow at speed is a no-no in 99.9% of situations (i.e., emergency maneuvers excepted). Just don't do it, it's a bad habit that erases your margin for safety, and only needs to fail once for you and your loved ones to have a really bad day.

-- At speed, i.e. above parking lot speeds, your body weight is almost certainly meaningless to the Spyder. Shifting your weight to the inside does little to keep the wheel of the Spyder to the ground-- if it wants to come up, physics is going to force it to come up. Shifting your weight in this sense is better than NOT shifting your weight, but it's not a large contributor to keeping the Spyder planted at twisties speed (definitely in slow-speed cornering, though).

What shifting your weight to the inside *does* do is keep yourself balanced atop a vehicle that's trying to fling you off of it. It makes it easier to control the bike in the corners, and proper steering, throttle and braking can keep you planted in the corners.

-- Which leads me to my only gripe about having a footbrake versus a handbrake: again, I think the guy here is showing off for the camera, but that situation is a real-life one for anyone taking a Spyder into a sharp left turn. :shocked: More than once I've had to cool my speeds in lefts because I knew there was no way I was going to reach the brake hanging off all drunken-monkey style to the inside. A handbrake solves that problem, and would probably help any Spyder perform better in the twisties as a result.

-- Visit the Dragon on weekday mornings, just after dawn, and you'll never see a soul, let alone any weekend warriors who don't know how to ride. Keep an eye out for deer, and have fun! :doorag:

[bruiser]

The owners manual says to lean to the inside of a curve. Which is what this gentleman is doing, albeit somewhat exaggerated. Like others, I tend to hang cheek in a turn as well. I also put my weight on the pegs, this helps keep me in the saddle. I think someone else mentioned riding styles. Most of us have our own style. I have to blow my own horn here and say I was complemented by a gentleman and his wife on the "Veterans Ride" at Spyderfest this year about my riding style on the "twisties". I have ridden the Dragon. I wasn't really impressed that much and actually prefer the Rattler. Commenting on the lean of the sport bike, every one that I saw on the Dragon and in Dragon videos is doing that lean. IMHO, that's inherent of a sport bike rider. Doing that lean on a cruiser will probably result in one of two things, scrapping the heck out of the pegs or scrapping the heck out of your skin. Or both. Finally, I really don't see anything wrong with the way he (RS rider) is riding. He's having fun, and that's what riding a Spyder is all about. Can I get an amen??

[Yazz]

The owners manual says to lean to the inside of a curve. Which is what this gentleman is doing, albeit somewhat exaggerated. Like others, I tend to hang cheek in a turn as well. I also put my weight on the pegs, this helps keep me in the saddle. I think someone else mentioned riding styles. Most of us have our own style. I have to blow my own horn here and say I was complemented by a gentleman and his wife on the "Veterans Ride" at Spyderfest this year about my riding style on the "twisties". I have ridden the Dragon. I wasn't really impressed that much and actually prefer the Rattler. Commenting on the lean of the sport bike, every one that I saw on the Dragon and in Dragon videos is doing that lean. IMHO, that's inherent of a sport bike rider. Doing that lean on a cruiser will probably result in one of two things, scrapping the heck out of the pegs or scrapping the heck out of your skin. Or both. Finally, I really don't see anything wrong with the way he (RS rider) is riding. He's having fun, and that's what riding a Spyder is all about. Can I get an amen??

Amen! (This said by a drunk-monkey rider...)

[jerpinoy]

Lets have fun on our :spyder2: not on hospital bed and justifying the stupidness.

[daltmeyer]

Wut? The speed limit is 15? When I was there in July it was 35 I think.

[blambert]

I have never been on the dragon but if you want some twisters come to AZ and ride the devils highway route 666. Runs along the AZ NM border. On my RS I come in hard get out at a 45 degree angle on the bike and I am always looking at the end of the turn as I enter the turn - never looking down. I have a ICSI hand brake so I can get of the right peg when I need to but never brake in a curve unless emergency. Hit the apex and punch the gas the torque on the rear tire gives you grip from the apex to out of the curve and the prepare hard going into the next curve. I find it similar to skiing a mogul run on a ski slope.

[rabtech]

The dragon is a blast. However it will bite you. Most of the dragon is in Tennessee. The North Carolina side has just a couple of miles of the actual 11.
I have the scratches to prove it. And I never crossed the center line.:joke:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/10/se5a3ega.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/10/ra6eqa6u.jpg

[Bob Denman]

...And if the Dragon can dump a "Duck"; what do you think it can do to someone that's not set up real well for the twisties?? :yikes:

[Barlock]

“Aerodynamically the bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly, but the bumblebee doesn't know that, so it goes on flying anyway.” ~ Mary Kay Ash

[Desert Spyder]

Wut? The speed limit is 15? When I was there in July it was 35 I think.

I was quoting the ryder in the pictures.

[WackyDan]

He is leg up and foot off the brake in order to showboat for the camera... Many riders do it. Doesn't make it safe to do, but if you want to have a neat shot go for it. I prefer to have pictures of myself actually riding hard then showboating.

[Desert Spyder]

This isn't the Dragon, its somewhere in Europe, I think. I'm not a pro and I am sure the VSS may have been altered on this. I hear this is pretty easy in a parking lot vs. not.

[Spyder Tony]

-- At speed, i.e. above parking lot speeds, your body weight is almost certainly meaningless to the Spyder. Shifting your weight to the inside does little to keep the wheel of the Spyder to the ground-- if it wants to come up, physics is going to force it to come up. Shifting your weight in this sense is better than NOT shifting your weight, but it's not a large contributor to keeping the Spyder planted at twisties speed (definitely in slow-speed cornering, though).

What shifting your weight to the inside *does* do is keep yourself balanced atop a vehicle that's trying to fling you off of it. It makes it easier to control the bike in the corners, and proper steering, throttle and braking can keep you planted in the corners.


I respectfully disagree. Mathematics would disprove this with the equation on how Mass & velocity affect Centrifugal force...F=ma (Force equals Mass times Acceleration). For Example...it would require you to exert less force to swing a golf ball suspended on a string in a circular motion than it would to swing a bowling ball suspended on a string in a circular motion...because the bowling ball has more mass (weighs more).
I have a GS and an ST and both machines benefit from my leaning in twisties at high speeds. Simply put...I have tried both leaning & not leaning, or leaning very little. My experience has been that the more pronounced my lean, the greater speed I can take the turn in the twisties. I agree that it also has an added benefit of keeping the rider in the seat rather than succumb to the centrifugal force...but when my lean is less pronounced, the Nanny is much quicker to intervene and slow things down. My lean is much more pronounced than the lean depicted in the photos...but my leg (Knee specifically) is firmly planted on the Spyder body holding me in place, not hanging out.

[Desert Spyder]

I respectfully disagree. Mathematics would disprove this with the equation on how Mass & velocity affect Centrifugal force...F=ma (Force equals Mass times Acceleration). For Example...it would require you to exert less force to swing a golf ball suspended on a string in a circular motion than it would to swing a bowling ball suspended on a string in a circular motion...because the bowling ball has more mass (weighs more).
I have a GS and an ST and both machines benefit from my leaning in twisties at high speeds. Simply put...I have tried both leaning & not leaning, or leaning very little. My experience has been that the more pronounced my lean, the greater speed I can take the turn in the twisties. I agree that it also has an added benefit of keeping the rider in the seat rather than succumb to the centrifugal force...but when my lean is less pronounced, the Nanny is much quicker to intervene and slow things down. My lean is much more pronounced than the lean depicted in the photos...but my leg (Knee specifically) is firmly planted on the Spyder body holding me in place, not hanging out.

Tony, what about going downhill vs uphill? What does physics say about that? I don't know why but I can go around a corner in the twisties at say 35 mph and I feel more in control going uphill than down at the same speed, and I don't know why.

BTW, I tried holding my leg out today rounding a corner. My hip cramps up. You have to be in shape to do the hokey pokey apparently.

[Spyder Tony]

Tony, what about going downhill vs uphill? What does physics say about that? I don't know why but I can go around a corner in the twisties at say 35 mph and I feel more in control going uphill than down at the same speed, and I don't know why.

BTW, I tried holding my leg out today rounding a corner. My hip cramps up. You have to be in shape to do the hokey pokey apparently.

I confess that I don't know about the physics of going uphill vs downhill although I suspect that inertia would play a factor on downhill force...this is strictly conjecture, however.

As far as the hokey pokey part, that was just plumb funny!!!

[Bob Denman]

This is tarting to sound a lot like Math Class again... :shocked:
77533

[Silvervette05]

I've been on the tail of the dragon in my 95 vette, a may try it with my 08 rs

[Dan_Ashley]

I confess that I don't know about the physics of going uphill vs downhill although I suspect that inertia would play a factor on downhill force...this is strictly conjecture, however.

As far as the hokey pokey part, that was just plumb funny!!!
I am fairly confident that given a 600 pound to 950 pound machine plus rider, that most uphill vs downhill forces would become nearly unnoticed, if that were the only difference. What I think may make a difference is the camber of downhill twisting roadways. The camber of the same roadway could merely be the inverse of the other direction. But inside turns are tighter than outside turns. Camber during design would probably be an average of some sort of the two turns at expected speed. Normalizing an engineering statement to handle all these variables could be quite challenging.