Akrapovic RT Exhaust - Dyno & Cat Removal Questions

[stewartj239]

I am considering the Akrapovic exhaust for my 2013 RT-S. From what I understand, they offer a "Sport" and "Sport Touring" silencer, but they are really the same except for their shape. I have been unable to locate a dyno chart comparing it to the stock exhaust. As a matter of fact, the Two Brothers exhaust is the ONLY aftermarket option that I've seen a dyno for and it shows a 3-4 HP increase. It doesn't seem like much to me. It makes me wonder if the stock exhaust isn't as restricted as I assume it is.

So my question is, does anyone have a dyno of the Akrapovic showing what I'm gaining in performance for the money - or even a seat of the pants opinion? Also, if the Akrapovic is mated with a cat bypass, will the two of them together lean out the FI mapping to the point that I would require a juice box, or will the stock ECM be able to handle both modifications? Thanks.

[Mike,P]

Who makes the cat bypas ???

[stewartj239]

Who makes the cat bypas ???

Here's the link:

http://www.spyder1attitude.com/cat-bypass.html

Others on this forum have installed it with great results.

[Bob Denman]

If you lose the converter and pop for the Akrapovic; the weight savings alone would be substantial... :thumbup:
I'm guessing here; but it should be about 50 lobs...

[stewartj239]

If you lose the converter and pop for the Akrapovic; the weight savings alone would be substantial... :thumbup:
I'm guessing here; but it should be about 50 lobs...

Wow!!! I guess my biggest worry is whether the ECM can handle them both without running too lean. I am very fortunate because I have a 2013 that does not exhibit the heat related issues. I know I'm not running lean and I don't want to upset that, but I also want to make some upgrades.

[Orange monster]

Wow!!! I guess my biggest worry is whether the ECM can handle them both without running too lean. I am very fortunate because I have a 2013 that does not exhibit the heat related issues. I know I'm not running lean and I don't want to upset that, but I also want to make some upgrades.

I don't have any facts but I would bet that the bike would be to lean for comfort if we remove both without a tuning device. As of right now I can not find anyone offering a tuner for the 2013 yet. For the best performance I think we need to remove the cat, add free flowing muffler, and remove factory airbox and install the Kewl Metal high flow intake system. With the 50lbs of weight reduction and the more air in and more air out we should be able to get some good gains! After that there isn't anything else let on the aftermarket to improve performance. You would think that after 6 years we would have cam options, big bore kits, and several high flow intake options with cool air intake ducting to foglight holes.

[billrob71]

I don't have any facts but I would bet that the bike would be to lean for comfort if we remove both without a tuning device. As of right now I can not find anyone offering a tuner for the 2013 yet.


I called two brothers about a juice box pro for my 13 and they said it was in R&D and would be out in about 3 weeks and that was as of Yesterday.

[stewartj239]

I don't have any facts but I would bet that the bike would be to lean for comfort if we remove both without a tuning device.

And that is what I'm looking to avoid. I was hoping that some members have done both mods with good results.

[Bob Denman]

The more you tickle the dragon's tail; the quicker you'll get burned... :shocked:
i can see changing the can out back...
I'd be VERY cautious beyond that...

[SNOOPY]

The more you tickle the dragon's tail; the quicker you'll get burned... :shocked:
i can see changing the can out back...
I'd be VERY cautious beyond that...



I'm with you, it's seem like dangerous territory replacing the cat also w/ no tune work.

[stewartj239]

I know that replacing the cat by itself has yielded great results by many members on this forum. If I had to choose between the cat and the exhaust, I'm thinking the cat would be the mod to make.

[SNOOPY]

I know that replacing the cat by itself has yielded great results by many members on this forum. If I had to choose between the cat and the exhaust, I'm thinking the cat would be the mod to make.



Does changing out the cat only mess w/ other stuff?

Seems like a big change to me, moreso than a muffler change?

[stewartj239]

Does changing out the cat only mess w/ other stuff?

Seems like a big change to me, moreso than a muffler change?

No, not really. Take a look at the link I posted. The removal is simply a bolt on - just like replacing the OEM exhaust. I would like to replace both. I know the ECM can adjust to one or the other, but I am not sure about both. As stated, there are plenty of people who have removed the cat and I have yet to see a negative result.

[Orange monster]

No, not really. Take a look at the link I posted. The removal is simply a bolt on - just like replacing the OEM exhaust. I would like to replace both. I know the ECM can adjust to one or the other, but I am not sure about both. As stated, there are plenty of people who have removed the cat and I have yet to see a negative result.

I think what he is saying is that removing the cat would have more affect on the A/F mixture than removing the muffler, which I agree. Are you saying you have seen post where people removed the cat and nothing else and did not use a fuel controller of any kind with good results?

[SNOOPY]

I think what he is saying is that removing the cat would have more affect on the A/F mixture than removing the muffler, which I agree. Are you saying you have seen post where people removed the cat and nothing else and did not use a fuel controller of any kind with good results?



That's what I was wondering.

[Orange monster]

I called two brothers about a juice box pro for my 13 and they said it was in R&D and would be out in about 3 weeks and that was as of Yesterday.

Thats good news! I just hope they do a map for a muffler swap only, a map for muffler swap and high flow intake, and a map for muffler swap, cat removal, and high flow intake install. With the 2012 the cat was in the muffler so when you swapped it out you removed the cat at the same time. It would only be fair that they gave us a map for the cat removed as well.:pray:

[billrob71]

Thats good news! I just hope they do a map for a muffler swap only, a map for muffler swap and high flow intake, and a map for muffler swap, cat removal, and high flow intake install. With the 2012 the cat was in the muffler so when you swapped it out you removed the cat at the same time. It would only be fair that they gave us a map for the cat removed as well.:pray:


Not sure but was just happy it was in the works .

[dizzyspots]

Im at a bit of a loss as to the cost of some of these mods...especially exhaust. $450 for 12 inches of exhaust tubing..(another $40 for gaskets!)
Am I missing something here?

WHy is a simple cat bypass that I can have done on my Toyota at any quality custom exhaust shop about $100...put it under my Spyder and suddenly its worth almost $500???

[Benggolf]

In the 2013 STS, is the catalytic converter part of the OEM muffler?
I believe the dealer has a Akraprovic "Sports" exhaust for the RS/RT (2012?) he intends to install it on my STS.

Will this install cause any issues? Or should I insists he orders the correct one from BRP?
Or maybe it is the same part for all models with the current 998 engine?

[Bob Denman]

No. The converter is a separate can...

[retired1]

I don't have any facts but I would bet that the bike would be to lean for comfort if we remove both without a tuning device. As of right now I can not find anyone offering a tuner for the 2013 yet. For the best performance I think we need to remove the cat, add free flowing muffler, and remove factory airbox and install the Kewl Metal high flow intake system. With the 50lbs of weight reduction and the more air in and more air out we should be able to get some good gains! After that there isn't anything else let on the aftermarket to improve performance. You would think that after 6 years we would have cam options, big bore kits, and several high flow intake options with cool air intake ducting to foglight holes.

I don't know how you would find it, but back in '09 or '10 there was a big bore kit available for the 990.

[Bob Denman]

These engines are pretty much "locked-down" by their computers...:yikes:
Are you referring to the Aprilia pieces?
They might bolt on; but your talking about engine bits designed to work in a fullblown 400 pound sportbike; not a 700 pounder... :shocked:
You need a different powerband for our application... :gaah:

[stewartj239]

I think what he is saying is that removing the cat would have more affect on the A/F mixture than removing the muffler, which I agree. Are you saying you have seen post where people removed the cat and nothing else and did not use a fuel controller of any kind with good results?

Yes. The stock ECM will handle the removal of the cat. Once you swap it out, you let the bike idle for 10-15 minutes and it will adjust. I can provide links to some threads on this forum that already cover this. It is a true bolt-on modification.

From what I've read, the ECM can handle and adjust up to a 20% change. That's why I'm wondering if doing the exhaust (in addition to the cat removal) - primarily with the Akrapovic, will put it over the 20% where the stock ECM won't be able to adjust.

[stewartj239]

Im at a bit of a loss as to the cost of some of these mods...especially exhaust. $450 for 12 inches of exhaust tubing..(another $40 for gaskets!)
Am I missing something here?

WHy is a simple cat bypass that I can have done on my Toyota at any quality custom exhaust shop about $100...put it under my Spyder and suddenly its worth almost $500???

Funny. This topic was covered as well. Some people have done this themselves for well under $200, but those who have bought and installed the kit have said that they they can kind of understand the price after seeing how tight some of the clearances are in there and how everything needs to align / match up perfectly.

[SNOOPY]

Thats good news! I just hope they do a map for a muffler swap only, a map for muffler swap and high flow intake, and a map for muffler swap, cat removal, and high flow intake install. With the 2012 the cat was in the muffler so when you swapped it out you removed the cat at the same time. It would only be fair that they gave us a map for the cat removed as well.:pray:

Interesting that the 2012's had cat and muffler combined and people changed out the exhaust. W no issues. That almost tells me that you can change the cat and muffler on the 2013's w no issues.

almost lol

[SNOOPY]

Im at a bit of a loss as to the cost of some of these mods...especially exhaust. $450 for 12 inches of exhaust tubing..(another $40 for gaskets!)
Am I missing something here?

WHy is a simple cat bypass that I can have done on my Toyota at any quality custom exhaust shop about $100...put it under my Spyder and suddenly its worth almost $500???


Welcome me to the world of powersports. Nice to meet you. :roflblack:

[stewartj239]

Interesting that the 2012's had cat and muffler combined and people changed out the exhaust. W no issues. That almost tells me that you can change the cat and muffler on the 2013's w no issues.

almost lol

I think he was talking about the RS where the cat was in the muffler. I believe the RT has always had it prior to the muffler. Either way, your point is valid. The Akrapovic exhaust in that scenario would be replacing them both.

[SNOOPY]

I think he was talking about the RS where the cat was in the muffler. I believe the RT has always had it prior to the muffler. Either way, your point is valid. The Akrapovic exhaust in that scenario would be replacing them both.


Yeah, wasn't sure about the RTs. Everything I've read about the last couple years of RS's and ST's show them also having many interchangeable parts. Not so much the RTs

[Bob Denman]

The RS and ST bikes are a lot like brothers; the RT is a bit more like a first cousin. :D

[SNOOPY]

The RS and ST bikes are a lot like brothers; the RT is a bit more like a first cousin. :D


I thought it it was like an overweight father. :roflblack:



No offense meant lol

[Bob Denman]

:roflblack: you may be right! :roflblack:

[dizzyspots]

2012 RT still under warranty...will pulling the cat or adding aftermarket exhaust void BRP or extended warranty??

[stewartj239]

2012 RT still under warranty...will pulling the cat or adding aftermarket exhaust void BRP or extended warranty??

BRP sells the Akrapovic aftermarket exhaust right out of their accessories catalog, so I can't imagine that any aftermarket exhaust would void the warranty. As far as the cat goes, if it does, then just put it back on before taking it in for repair :)

[quickster47]

I've not heard one myself but from what I've read the OEM muffler has a mucho better sound if you remove the catalytic converter.

Carl

[3 Wheel Addict]

How does removing "anything" after the o2 sensor make a difference in the engine as far as being lean or rich? The o2 sensor is in the head pipe and there is none after the cat (which really surprises me) so any changes after the o2 sensor really should not make any difference. Now unless the factory put that o2 sensor in there for tuning and its not used for operation, but it's a heated sensor and that means its active at idle.

[Bob Denman]

2012 RT still under warranty...will pulling the cat or adding aftermarket exhaust void BRP or extended warranty??
Let's put it this way...
If your shocks go bad, or your handlebar grips fall off; no.
If you suffer engine damage ? :dontknow: :shocked:

Do you think that they're NOT going to try and use it to keep from paying for an engine? :roflblack:

[SNOOPY]

Let's put it this way...
If your shocks go bad, or your handlebar grips fall off; no.
If you suffer engine damage ? :dontknow: :shocked:

Do you think that they're NOT going to try and use it to keep from paying for an engine? :roflblack:


Very good points indeed. :thumbup:

[SNOOPY]

How does removing "anything" after the o2 sensor make a difference in the engine as far as being lean or rich? The o2 sensor is in the head pipe and there is none after the cat (which really surprises me) so any changes after the o2 sensor really should not make any difference. Now unless the factory put that o2 sensor in there for tuning and its not used for operation, but it's a heated sensor and that means its active at idle.


Very good point.

I think replacing the muffler and cat w/ less restrictive "may" be harmful as in relieving possible needed back pressure?

[stewartj239]

Very good point.

I think replacing the muffler and cat w/ less restrictive "may" be harmful as in relieving possible needed back pressure?

But isn't that the benefit of EFI? Won't it automatically adjust to the changes (within reason). With a carbed engine, you'd just rejet. These types of changes are common.

[SNOOPY]

But isn't that the benefit of EFI? Won't it automatically adjust to the changes (within reason). With a carbed engine, you'd just rejet. These types of changes are common.



I'm old, I know how to rejet a carb. lol


.

[vmaxman]

I don't have any facts but I would bet that the bike would be to lean for comfort if we remove both without a tuning device. As of right now I can not find anyone offering a tuner for the 2013 yet. For the best performance I think we need to remove the cat, add free flowing muffler, and remove factory airbox and install the Kewl Metal high flow intake system. With the 50lbs of weight reduction and the more air in and more air out we should be able to get some good gains! After that there isn't anything else let on the aftermarket to improve performance. You would think that after 6 years we would have cam options, big bore kits, and several high flow intake options with cool air intake ducting to foglight holes.

I agree I have a ST and want more power, removing cat, good after market free flowing mufflar and Kewl high flow intake will make a great difference in power. Like you I have not been able to find tuner, that is until now. Dynojet Power Commander V has just come out with one for the 2013 ST, RSS, and RT. Check Revzilla web site, selling for $411.63, their phone number is 877-792 9455. You can also check it out on Dynojet web site. How it compares to what and when Power Commander or Two Bros. Juice Box, I do not know since they have none yet for the 2013's.

[stewartj239]

I agree I have a ST and want more power, removing cat, good after market free flowing mufflar and Kewl high flow intake will make a great difference in power. Like you I have not been able to find tuner, that is until now. Dynojet Power Commander V has just come out with one for the 2013 ST, RSS, and RT. Check Revzilla web site, selling for $411.63, their phone number is 877-792 9455. You can also check it out on Dynojet web site. How it compares to what and when Power Commander or Two Bros. Juice Box, I do not know since they have none yet for the 2013's.

That is great to hear. I wonder what maps they offer with it. Typically they give you a stock map along with others for the most popular exhaust / filter combinations.

[flybuddy]

Just an FYI on a couple of issues I've seen raised on this thread. Yes, you can remove the "CAT" on an RT which makes it less of a "DOG":)..When I removed mine, I left the stock muffler on and it was only about 2 decibels louder. It also ran well although I did get a little surging at mid level rpms. Startron fuel additive eliminated most of that. After a year with never having been in a shop I eventually had it hooked up to BUDS for updates. Whatever transpired there seemed to smooth it out completely and upped the fuel mileage by about 3mpg.
As far as cost on the cat-bypass. I had same thoughts about the expense given what I perceived it to be. Bought it anyway after SA lowered price and I changed my mind about the value of the mod when I installed it. It's VERY tight under there and every bend, hook, etc has to be perfect. I was very glad I didn't try to go cheap. If you look at it from the perspective of cat bypass OR aftermarket muffler, it's not only cost competitive but gives you more bang for the buck.

[mob133]

have to agree with flybuddy.this thing has to be perfect or you wont get it on ihad one I had to send back,looked good but just wouldn't fit they to care of it very promptly,as to performance took bike to dealer other day,owner and mechanic both took test rides they are now looking into stocking catbypass and elkas said machine went from a tourer to a sport model

[stewartj239]

After a year with never having been in a shop I eventually had it hooked up to BUDS for updates. Whatever transpired there seemed to smooth it out completely and upped the fuel mileage by about 3mpg.

Thanks flybuddy. Not to be ignorant, but what is BUDS? Is this a firmware update done by the dealer? Also, I am thinking that I will do the cat removal first, then maybe do the exhaust down the road. It sounds like both offer an equal performance gain, but removing the cat also gets rid of the heat that comes with it.

[Bob Denman]

BUDS is the diagnostic computer that the dealer uses...
Somebody mentioned the issue of fuel injected systems being able to compensate for changes...
They can; but only up to a predetermined point. :shocked:

No doubt; removing the catalytic converter and installing a less-restrictive muffler will open things up, and let the bike breather easier...
But you'll also need to open up the breathing side of this "air pump" for maximum gains...
And you'll definitely be working in the realm of fuel controllers of some sort in order to keep your engine happy...
Risky ground indeed!

[flybuddy]

BUDS is the diagnostic computer that the dealer uses...
Somebody mentioned the issue of fuel injected systems being able to compensate for changes...
They can; but only up to a predetermined point. :shocked:

No doubt; removing the catalytic converter and installing a less-restrictive muffler will open things up, and let the bike breather easier...
But you'll also need to open up the breathing side of this "air pump" for maximum gains...
And you'll definitely be working in the realm of fuel controllers of some sort in order to keep your engine happy...
Risky ground indeed!

Good point---I failed to mention that I installed a K&N air filter before the cat removal. As Bob said, BUDS is the dealer computer from BRP used to do ECM updates and diagnostics.

[stewartj239]

BUDS is the diagnostic computer that the dealer uses...

OK. I'll check with my dealer. I'm assuming that this system also updates the software as well.


No doubt; removing the catalytic converter and installing a less-restrictive muffler will open things up, and let the bike breather easier...
But you'll also need to open up the breathing side of this "air pump" for maximum gains...
And you'll definitely be working in the realm of fuel controllers of some sort in order to keep your engine happy...
Risky ground indeed!

Coming from the 2-wheel world, these are pretty routine upgrades. I think the main question, as you've pointed out, is how far the stock ECM will adjust before you need an aftermarket tuner.

[Bob Denman]

I guess that I've learned the HARD way just how expensive it can get... :shocked:

[stewartj239]

I guess that I've learned the HARD way just how expensive it can get... :shocked:

For sure. Just looking at this thread, the cat removal kit, exhaust and PCV alone will run you close to $1500. I'm thinking that the stock ECM can handle the cat removal, but maybe not that and the exhaust, but at that point you're committed to having to buy the PCV. I might just go with the cat removal and leave it at that.

Now beyond this thread, I'm looking to get the Elka suspension, adjustable wind deflectors and the ISCI front brake. Those 3 items will run another $2500 on top of that!

[SNOOPY]

Just an FYI on a couple of issues I've seen raised on this thread. Yes, you can remove the "CAT" on an RT which makes it less of a "DOG":)..When I removed mine, I left the stock muffler on and it was only about 2 decibels louder. It also ran well although I did get a little surging at mid level rpms. Startron fuel additive eliminated most of that. After a year with never having been in a shop I eventually had it hooked up to BUDS for updates. Whatever transpired there seemed to smooth it out completely and upped the fuel mileage by about 3mpg.
As far as cost on the cat-bypass. I had same thoughts about the expense given what I perceived it to be. Bought it anyway after SA lowered price and I changed my mind about the value of the mod when I installed it. It's VERY tight under there and every bend, hook, etc has to be perfect. I was very glad I didn't try to go cheap. If you look at it from the perspective of cat bypass OR aftermarket muffler, it's not only cost competitive but gives you more bang for the buck.


have to agree with flybuddy.this thing has to be perfect or you wont get it on ihad one I had to send back,looked good but just wouldn't fit they to care of it very promptly,as to performance took bike to dealer other day,owner and mechanic both took test rides they are now looking into stocking catbypass and elkas said machine went from a tourer to a sport model



Thank you both for your info, much appreciated. :thumbup:

[Bob Denman]

For sure. Just looking at this thread, the cat removal kit, exhaust and PCV alone will run you close to $1500. I'm thinking that the stock ECM can handle the cat removal, but maybe not that and the exhaust, but at that point you're committed to having to buy the PCV. I might just go with the cat removal and leave it at that.

Now beyond this thread, I'm looking to get the Elka suspension, adjustable wind deflectors and the ISCI front brake. Those 3 items will run another $2500 on top of that!

:lecturef_smilie:You must choose, WISELY... ;)

[bluestratos]

I have the Akrapovic Muffler already and it actual made a slight power improvement and a much better sounding exhaust note, not louder, just better. I have the cat bypass ordered and on its way and I have a performance chip coming as well. When they get here I will be wrapping everything back to the muffler. This will lower the heat under the Tupperwaree and should have a noticeable power increase ( I am told about 15% or higher). I won't know how much louder until I get it done this winter.

[taxmyzer]

I have the Akrapovic Muffler already and it actual made a slight power improvement and a much better sounding exhaust note, not louder, just better. I have the cat bypass ordered and on its way and I have a performance chip coming as well. When they get here I will be wrapping everything back to the muffler. This will lower the heat under the Tupperwaree and should have a noticeable power increase ( I am told about 15% or higher). I won't know how much louder until I get it done this winter.
Keep us posted on the results.

[Bob Denman]

:agree: A video with some sound in it would be pretty cool... :thumbup:

[bluestratos]

Will do, the parts should all be here with in a few weeks, as soon as the weather turns wet I will start the winter projects.

[Bob Denman]

Waiting patiently...
...tongs in hand :bbq::bbq::bbq:

[crazyspyder]

:ohyea:I had the dealer install my cat bypass and after market muffler, just to be safe of any warranty issues. after 5k miles and a service trip my dealer told me to invest on a power management, I was ok with one or the other ...but...both you will need it! :2thumbs: I had the exhaust HT titanium coated and titanium HT wrapped aswell..very cool!:clap:

[Bob Denman]

The more things you change; the more changes you need to make... :shocked:

[steve0530]

No, not really. Take a look at the link I posted. The removal is simply a bolt on - just like replacing the OEM exhaust. I would like to replace both. I know the ECM can adjust to one or the other, but I am not sure about both. As stated, there are plenty of people who have removed the cat and I have yet to see a negative result.

If you replace the exhaust the computer will compensate, no need for any mods. If you change out the air filter for a high flow you will need to fatten up the fuel flow.

[stewartj239]

If you replace the exhaust the computer will compensate, no need for any mods. If you change out the air filter for a high flow you will need to fatten up the fuel flow.

Just to clarify, you think it will adjust for BOTH the cat removal AND the Akrapovic exhaust? That would be awesome because the PCV with the Auto Tune option is ~ $900 retail.