"Catastrophic Engine Failure"

[3tracs]

Hello SpyderLover Family!

I just wanted to get some opinions from you about my recent turn of bad luck with my beloved Spyder; 3Tracs. (For the record, he is a 2008 Can Am Spyder GS SM5; currently with 13,400 mile on the odometer. I purchased him new on August 27th, 2009, with only 14 miles on the odo). BEST warranty expired 10 months ago.

On the afternoon of July 15th, 2013, I was on the interstate doing 60-62 mph (in a 65 zone) when I suddenly heard a loud ticking noise coming from the motor. I immediately rolled off the throttle when the bike lurched twice. I instantly pulled in the clutch and the engine died. I coasted to the side of the interstate, put the transmission in neutral and pressed the start button when all I heard was a high pitched whine of the starter and knew the engine was locked up tight.

Right away I had him towed to my local dealer, and was told that they would try to take a look within the week, as they were very backed up. I totally understood and said I would check back. They called me a day later and said that the preliminary exam showed "major front cylinder damage" and that they would have to look into it more.

The next week I stopped in and they had 3Tracs on the lift with the front cylinder off. Here are the pics, but I warn you, they are not for the faint of heart :yikes: :
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2991

So far, the technician believes that a valve dropped, striking the cylinder, and it broke it off creating the mess that you see.

I asked what kind of "failure" could cause such a thing and they told me that they'll have to dig into it deeper to find out for sure. I asked about a timing issue, and they don't think that is the case as there isn't any damage to the other valves. To me, this looks like a cut and dry valve failure of some sort. I had 700 mile to go to the manufacturer scheduled valve check per the new updated maintenance schedule from BRP, but of course that doesn't guarantee that it could of been diagnosed before hand... I know that metal doesn't break until it breaks. Meaning; any metal fatigue may not have even existed.

My dealer is in contact with BRP on how to proceed as they haven't come across anything like this with a Rotax motor before. I'm hoping to have some good news by the end of the week...

So, that is quite a lot to throw out there. What does everyone think? I'm remaining positive as I have a lot of faith in my dealer and with BRP. The Spyder is a great machine and this is hopefully my only "bump in the web".

Thanks for listening, (reading)!

[ChasingWind]

Ouch - that's so sad - those pics are brutal - defiantly a valve failure - very doubtful any valve adjustment could of forecasted a valve failure like that - very hard to see down that far unless you take the heads off. Good luck - hopefully everything will turn out ok and you will be back riding soon

[Chupaca]

:pray: they delve into it and find the source of the problem. Agree with the tech does not look like a timing problem but the would have to check the broken valve in depth..good luck..!! :pray:

[wyliec]

Just out of curiosity, you only opted for a 1 year BEST warranty? I only ask b/c someone on here had thought they only had a 1 year BEST warranty and when they checked they found it was a 3 year one.

[Flanker]

:cus: dude! What a crummy stroke of bad luck! The first pic I looked at was one of the middle ones; instantly said, ":cus:!, dropped valve!". I dropped an intake valve in a 454 Chevy motor, years ago. It was a used vehicle that had been abused (and allegedly repaired at the expense of the previous youthfully over exuberant owner), and I'd been abusing it myself (shame on me!). Quite the opposite of your experience with your Spyder. That is just freaky! I sincerely hope BRP throws something your way, good luck!

[Bob Denman]

:agree: dropped valve... :shocked:
Bummer... :gaah:

[Dan McNally]

I cringed, looking at those photos. I hope BRP steps up to the plate and fixes that . . .

[Sarge707]

Considering the "Very Positive " way you brought this up and I know for a fact having 14 BRP products over 25 years that a Good Tech and Service Manager who is on your side can Go a "Long Way!" to helping a person out it a situation like this!nojoke

I Hope:pray: they will come through for you!!

[dabreitbach]

Yup. Dropped valve. The pic of the head & valves show's the broken valves stem. Its straight and if it was a timing issue it would be bent from the valve hitting the piston. Its bad luck but thats a clean break. Its also very very rare.

[Bob Denman]

Considering the "Very Positive " way you brought this up and I know for a fact having 14 BRP products over 25 years that a Good Tech and Service Manager who is on your side can Go a "Long Way!" to helping a person out it a situation like this!nojoke

I Hope:pray: they will come through for you!!

:agree: Very well said! :thumbup:

[NancysToy]

Yup. Dropped valve. The pic of the head & valves show's the broken valves stem. Its straight and if it was a timing issue it would be bent from the valve hitting the piston. Its bad luck but thats a clean break. Its also very very rare.

:agree:

[MrLooney]

It would be really nice to get a very close look at the ends of the broken valve. Both the stem and head to see if there is any signs of fatigue or cracking.

If the stem was cracked, it would show a dark area across part of the broken surface end and a shiny portion at the fresh new break. This would indicate to me metal fatigue and this problem started some time earlier back when there was still warrantee time on your Roadster. Only a matter of time before it finally expired.

The only way I know of that could have kept this from happening is to totally dismantle the engine and have each piece magnifluxed. Replace any questionable parts and reassemble.

These things happen from time to time. It could have been any one of 100's of parts that can fail. Let's just hope BRP will show a good faith and help at least in parts replacement or carry the full load for you since you are the first owner.

Good Luck

[Big Arm]

Sorry to hear about this........:pray: that all goes well for you !!!!

[billrob71]

Dam that really sucks, hope BRP will step up and help ya out.

[MikeinGA]

That's low mileage for a valve to drop. What type of oil did you use? I like to keep track that due to the Can-am Spyders engines in the beginning used a synthetic oil. Rotax engines on the hole don't have valve problems. I looked at your pics and looked like you took care of it.

Mike

[DrewNJ]

Wow! I just mentioned this to a good riding friend who has a long history of being big into the Aprilia scene (pretty much same motor), and he said he has only ever heard of ONE previous failure with a dropped valve. It just doesn't happen....

He did mention to check the top of the stem at the retainer/cotter and see if everything is all intact...:dontknow:

[3tracs]

Just out of curiosity, you only opted for a 1 year BEST warranty? I only ask b/c someone on here had thought they only had a 1 year BEST warranty and when they checked they found it was a 3 year one.

When I bought it, it came with the 2 year plus 1 year of BEST. Unfortunately I relied on my previous luck with vehicles and thought that after 3 years I would be okay. In hind-site, I very much wish I would have bought the full 3 year BEST. :(

[3tracs]

Thank you all for your comments!

I really appreciate you all taking the time to read and comment. This is a great group of people and I'm proud to stand with you.

I'm confident that everything will work out in the end. I've been told by many folks who own, or have owned vehicles with Rotax motors, that they're shocked as this is something that just doesn't happen, and that the Rotax motors are very durable; thus the reason for them being used in our Spyders.

In the meantime, I'm just stepping back to let my dealer and BRP look into it. They currently only have one Can-Am tech as they are also a Harley Davidson dealer, and have been very busy, but my service adviser has been awesome in keeping me in the loop.

Stay tuned! :thumbup:

Thanks again!

Harry
3Tracs

[Farmbanker]

Just out of curiosity that looks like it is in Metro's shop in CR? They really went to bat for me and if it is Metro I'm sure they will go to bat for you....

[3tracs]

Just out of curiosity that looks like it is in Metro's shop in CR? They really went to bat for me and if it is Metro I'm sure they will go to bat for you....

Yep, he's at Metro Harley Davidson, Suzuki and Can-Am in Cedar Rapids, awaiting surgery :). Hopefully they can get him back on three wheels soon.
I'll be checking in with them on Friday.

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[Farmbanker]

You are in good hands. They are experienced with this sort of thing. They put a whole new engine in my RT after it blew up. Also a rare event but still very frustrating. I was just in there for service yesterday....

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[3tracs]

Stopped to check on the patient today, and the problem is just what you all expected: a dropped valve.

They also found that the front piston rod is bent slightly, and a cog at the bottom had half its teeth sheared off (see the pics in the updated folder link below). I don't remember what that cog does, but it got beat up pretty bad.

2 New pictures: http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2991

It looks pretty grim... I believe in order to replace that rod, they would need to break down the entire engine, which sounds expensive. Thoughts?

They told me that BRP is very interested in what happened and my technician will be calling them and sending the pics for evaluation. I've been impressed with all the help Metro Can-Am has provided, and am also very grateful that BRP is in contact with them about my Spyder.

I'd appreciate all your thoughts onwhat to do next. I'm still hopeful for a good outcome and look forward to getting 3Tracs back on his tires!

Thanks for checking in and stay tuned! :)

[NancysToy]

Ouch again! It is beginning to look like the dropped valve was an end result, not the initial cause. For instance, skipped timing could make a piston contact a valve, which in turn breaks off the valve head. That usually bends the valve stem, but not always, especially with high compression engines when the valve is barely off its seat. The twisted connecting rod is a mystery...not a typical failure. At any rate, that engine ingested a lot of metal. I doubt you have seen the last of the hidden damage. At this point your best bet is a replacement engine. With a little luck and cooperation maybe BRP will provide the engine and you would just be responsible for the labor costs...which would be lower for replacement than for a rebuild. Of course the best scenario would be for them to pick up the entire tab, but that's a lot to hope for.

[Farmbanker]

I'm betting Metro is hoping BRP will help out with a different engine. When mine cratered and he saw all the metal pieces in there, the tech didnt feel comfortable that he would find every little piece. Fyi, my engine was diagnosed as timing chain failure. Dont think the valve broke off like yours did. Even if it cost a bit more, new engine would make me feel more confident.

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[wftb]

a valve can break off and drop at any time on any piston engine .they are usually flawed and pass unnoticed in the inspection process when the engine is first built . i have had 2 valves break and drop on me .you can get away with less than a total engine failure only if the stem breaks up high and the valve stays in its guide .then you will lose the piston and maybe the cylinder head but everything else is usually OK .this happened to a ford diesel i owned.my 343 v8 in a 1969 javelin was not so lucky .it broke down low at high revs and took out the con rod , crank , put a hole in the block and destroyed one cylinder head .when that valve stands up sideways , everything goes .

[dabreitbach]

Once that valve dropped into the cylinder it took out everything else. That valve won't compress like the fuel charge and then other things start to break down the line (rod, cylinder timing gears, ect) when that piston tries to compress that valve ( which ain't goin to happen ). That is all damage from that valve dropping.

[NancysToy]

Once that valve dropped into the cylinder it took out everything else. That valve won't compress like the fuel charge and then other things start to break down the line (rod, cylinder timing gears, ect) when that piston tries to compress that valve ( which ain't goin to happen ). That is all damage from that valve dropping.
Not so sure...the rod looks twisted, which would not be typical of damage from a dropped valve head. Yes, it could have bent and twisted when the piston hit the valve, but it would not be common...more often just a bent rod. The possibility of big end rod bearing damage is high when you see such a twist (look for play in the big end when twisted). The damaged timing gear (?) is more likely a cause than a sympton of a damaged valve...especially when the head snapped off cleanly. Tghe amount of piston and head damage is significant, but not as catastrophic as you would expect if there was enough mayhem to bend the rod. There is certainly more to this story. JMHO

[3tracs]

They told me that BRP is very interested in what happened and my technician will be calling them and sending the pics for evaluation. I've been impressed with all the help Metro Can-Am has provided, and am also very grateful that BRP is in contact with them about my Spyder.

I'd appreciate all your thoughts onwhat to do next. I'm still hopeful for a good outcome and look forward to getting 3Tracs back on his tires!

Thanks for checking in and stay tuned! :)

Here's another update;

BRP had asked my dealer to investigate further, which they did (see the pictures in post #1). They were told that even though my Spyder is out of warranty that were not "shutting the door" on helping out. I would have been thankful for any assistance.

Well, BRP "shut the door". My dealer called Monday to check status and was told in not so many words that none would be considered.

Now my dealer is in a pickle because they had related to me that BRP was interested in what happened, and would help, so they spent their time and money taking out the motor for diagnosis. And now, nothing.

So my question to you all is this: what could I have done to prevent this dropped valve? I have never red lined my Spyder, I've never even chirped the tire! It's my baby and has been treated as such.

I now have a $13,000 paperweight at the dealer, one that I still owe $3000 on... :confused:

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[beanoil]

IMO, YOU could not have done anything to prevent the valve breaking. Sometimes things just happen. And while I'm disappointed that BRP "shut the door", I'm not surprised. You are well past the time portion of the warranty. All that being said, I think I would have to reach out and contact BRP on my own and see if their couldn't be a reasonable compromise brought forth for both parties. I don't think you are out of options here, your mileage to failure certainly isn't the norm for these engines, but it will take some patience and detective work on your part. If the valve just plain broke, there will be telltale signs as mentioned earlier. The BUDS system will reveal if you had a light throttle hand over time, and if you have maintenance records, that would show you took care of the beast according to their maintenance schedule. All that adds up to encourage BRP help out. If you choose to rebuild, (I'm a once bitten kind of fellow) I'd contact Kibblewhite and see if they can make a set of their Black Diamond valves for you, to ensure some longevity for the second go round. A head, cylinder, valve kit, gaskets, piston, (hopefully the connecting-rod isn't tweaked) and labor would have to be weighed against a new replacement engine, or maybe a used engine from a wrecked Spyder (or maybe an Aprilia bike.. same engine different trans) as a heart donor for the transplant. Good luck to you, it sounds like the dealer has been willing to help out so far, I hope BRP rethinks their decision. That's really low miles for a catastrophic failure.

[ARtraveler]

I am surprised that BRP is sort of throwing you to the wolves. IMO--not a great customer service move. I say this, providing you have not abused the :spyder2: when it was in your control. As mentioned, BUDS can help determine that factor.

Catastrophic engine failures are fairly rare, and should be considered carefully by the manufacturer.

I would also recommend on discussing the issue with BRP. You seem to have a cool head about you, and that will go a long way in dealing with BRP.

Please keep us posted on how this all plays out. The Rotax engine is supposed to be good on longevity. A failure at less than 14,000 miles is way out of the ordinary.

[bruiser]

Hope you can work things out. Have to agree with AK on this one.

[DrewNJ]

Not trying to be a dick, but sorry all, I have to side with BRP on this one....Why would BRP assume ANY liability for the repair on a 5 year old machine that is almost a year out of warranty?? 14k isn't a ton of miles but it isn't "new" either. Come on now....Sure it sucks, but it isn't BRP's responsibility. The failure is just one of those things that can happen on ANYTHING mechanical we own. All of us have to assume some responsibility when we keep these machines or any other machine outside of the warranty period.

[Illinois Boy]

Would have to agree with DrewNJ...

[Bob Denman]

Both parties are in a dificult position with this:
3tracs is looking at an astronomical repair bill...
and BRP is looking at setting themselves up to cover everything that breaks on every bike... forever! :shocked:
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this miserable position; perhaps a negotiated sharing of the costs can be arranged? :dontknow:

[wyliec]

Not trying to be a dick, but sorry all, I have to side with BRP on this one....Why would BRP assume ANY liability for the repair on a 5 year old machine that is almost a year out of warranty?? 14k isn't a ton of miles but it isn't "new" either. Come on now....Sure it sucks, but it isn't BRP's responsibility. The failure is just one of those things that can happen on ANYTHING mechanical we own. All of us have to assume some responsibility when we keep these machines or any other machine outside of the warranty period.

I agree; but, BRP needs to be consistent with repairs out of warranty. There was a member about a year or 2 ago whose VCM (I think I have the correct terminology) needed to be replaced outside of the warranty period. BRP picked up the tab. I can't remember his name other than he was from the southwest and may still be here.

The only reason I remember was that he was still able to drive the spyder with the (supposed) faulty VCM; but, didn't have the money to have his spyder checked out to make sure what the actual problem was. At the time he wasn't sure if it was the VCM; other members had pointed him in that direction.

[Greenhorse]

I have been watching this one. Would have been nice if BRP did step up and do something, but then that opens the door to other out of warranty problems. I would look for a complete engine from another bike. Maybe BRP was not expecting such a complete failure.

[wyliec]

I was looking for regarding BRP covering a part out of warranty. You can read all the posts or go to #28 & 36.


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?45913-How-long-can-I-ride-in-Limp-Mode/page2

[DrewNJ]

I was looking for regarding BRP covering a part out of warranty. You can read all the posts or go to #28 & 36.


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?45913-How-long-can-I-ride-in-Limp-Mode/page2

There are also threads about BRP replacing fender brackets outside of warranty. However, there is a big difference in absorbing bracket and vcm costs for customer relations vs absorbing the cost of an entire motor with several internal mechanical moving parts that really nobody knows the history of except the OP.

Believe me, I feel the OP's pain, but also don't feel BRP is doing anything wrong here. It's just the world we live in.


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[beanoil]

There is a Rotax 990 engine 32k miles for sale on the Aprilia RF1 website right now... 500.00 in So Cal. That would get you all the basic parts to put your ride back together.

[Frank G]

There are at least 2 spyder motors on E-Bay for sale. Not sure I would attempt a rebuild on your old core unless the rebuilder stood behind it, and you trust them.:dontknow:
Most motors from totaled bikes are not damaged, and a reputable salvage yard will back them. ASK before you buy, also your Credit Card may give you some purchase protection. Yes, there are MC salvage yards. Good Luck

[Silvervette05]

I have an 08 sm5 with 10,750 miles on it.

[MrMuzic]

What became of the bike ? Did you eventually get it fixed ? Dispose of it ? Part it out ? Leave it at the dealer to have his way with it to try and recoup the money he was out in the diagnose ? Are you still riding a Spyder ?

Kevin

[jaherbst]

It was four years ago and he is probably not on here anymore.

Jack

[ARtraveler]

Also agree. Way old post (2013). Reading through it I saw many who are no longer with the site. Most of the advice given was good too. It would have been nice to know the final outcome. We get a lot of that on here. The problem gets discussed and the final solution is never posted. :thumbup::thumbup:

[pegasus1300]

It was four years ago and he is probably not on here anymore.

Jack

His last visit was 8/16/16.

[Freddy]

This one's more recent. :popcorn:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?107688-09-GS-oil-light-on-and-res-full-bad-grinding-from-engin