View Full Version : oil light on , black shards of metal came out of the engine drain hole
has been running fine , including last night .when i started it up today , the oil light went out after the engine fired like it usually does .after wiping the seat down , i noticed the oil light had come back on .shut it off to reset it because ever since i have owned it this has happened off and on .light stayed out until i got to the end of my driveway and then it came back on .so i parked it and took a car to work .drained the oil tonight to find about a dozen black shards of metal came out of the block drain .most of them are random shapes except one is about 1/4" long ,1/8" base and tapers at the top like a triangle. this is a 2009 gs se5 with 7700 km on it .what does the oil pump look like ? is it a gear pump ? i need to know what might have grenaded in there .and the oil has been changed regularly , usually amsoil but ctc was out so last change i used a jug of BRP i bought at the dealers a while back .
Bob Denman
07-17-2013, 06:58 AM
This is beyond normal backyard stuff... :shocked:
It sounds as if you should call the dealer. :gaah:
Good Luck; please let us know what is found!
going to dealer tomorrow to pick up a new pressure switch and filters etc to change the oil .there were no signs of any metal in either of the filters so i am hoping that nothing got in to the bearings etc . if someone could post a picture of the oil pump it would be helpful .and knowing how the oil goes through the pump would be helpful .if the oil goes from the tank to the pump and then through the filters and through the bearing circuit , i have nothing to worry about .if the pump draws through the filters first then through the pump and in to the bearings , if the pump lost part of a tooth then my engine is probably toast .the metal is hard black and non ferous , will not stick to a magnet if that helps anyone .i will be doing all work myself as this bike was out of warranty when i got it .i am just trying to see what i am up against .
boborgera
07-17-2013, 08:17 AM
going to dealer tomorrow to pick up a new pressure switch and filters etc to change the oil .there were no signs of any metal in either of the filters so i am hoping that nothing got in to the bearings etc . if someone could post a picture of the oil pump it would be helpful .and knowing how the oil goes through the pump would be helpful .if the oil goes from the tank to the pump and then through the filters and through the bearing circuit , i have nothing to worry about .if the pump draws through the filters first then through the pump and in to the bearings , if the pump lost part of a tooth then my engine is probably toast .the metal is hard black and non ferous , will not stick to a magnet if that helps anyone .i will be doing all work myself as this bike was out of warranty when i got it .i am just trying to see what i am up against .
Before you DO anything clean the oil screen at the bottom of the oil tank, you might find more metal there also...:dontknow:
ARCTIC
07-17-2013, 08:29 AM
I think if you don't dig right in and find the source of the metal chunks, you will be purchasing a long-block soon (if you don't need it already) Could it be chunks of piston skirting? Someone who knows please speak up but I don't believe the pump gears are going to be anything but steel. Doubt the gears are aluminum
these are not aluminum shards .some kind of non ferrous steel or alloy , maybe a stainless alloy of some sort .have not tried to cut one with a pair of pliers to get an idea of hardness but i will try tonight .
Rotaxer
07-17-2013, 09:51 AM
going to dealer tomorrow to pick up a new pressure switch and filters etc to change the oil .there were no signs of any metal in either of the filters so i am hoping that nothing got in to the bearings etc . if someone could post a picture of the oil pump it would be helpful .and knowing how the oil goes through the pump would be helpful .if the oil goes from the tank to the pump and then through the filters and through the bearing circuit , i have nothing to worry about .if the pump draws through the filters first then through the pump and in to the bearings , if the pump lost part of a tooth then my engine is probably toast .the metal is hard black and non ferous , will not stick to a magnet if that helps anyone .i will be doing all work myself as this bike was out of warranty when i got it .i am just trying to see what i am up against .
If this is the way you are going to proceed, after changing filters and sending unit, check oil pressure with a manual gauge to see what you have cold to hot. Also remember that if the oil light is on and you in fact have oil pressure verified by manual gauge, revving engine to 3000- 3500 rpm for 20 -30 seconds is necessary to make the light go out and reset the ECM. Good luck
boborgera
07-17-2013, 09:54 AM
Most Steel is NOT magnetic...
Jeriatric
07-17-2013, 09:57 AM
if someone could post a picture of the oil pump it would be helpful.
You can download a shop manual for around thirty dollars. :doorag:
Chupaca
07-17-2013, 10:05 AM
not aluminum yet all the metals you mention are affected by a magnet. Outside of the aluminum don't know what metal like materials are in the engine. But when you change oil check pressure light goes out we will still wonder. Do check the screen. They have made it so trash in the oil doesn't recirculate but it had to come from somewhere..let us know how it goes...:dontknow:
NancysToy
07-17-2013, 11:45 AM
It is not uncommon to find a few pieces of metal in engine oil especially after oil types or brands are changed. Leftover flashing from gear teeth and shavings and paticles from the break-in process can be slow in making their way to the sump, and the magnets and screens. Often pieces will be flushed out by an oil like Amsoil, with good detergent qualities and superior flow characteristics. In most cases it is not something to worry about....just clean the magnets or screens, change the oil, and go. In this case, however, the low oil pressure light, that returned after being reset, could indicate a serious problem. As was said, a wet oil pressure test is in order, to determine if the problem is related to the actual oil pressure or a coincidentally bad switch. If low oil pressure is found, an engine terdown is in order. The oil pump is a gear pump, and pieces could have come from the pump gears, pump housing (cover), or the crankcase where the pump is housed. Scoring in this area would require crankcase, pump cover, and pump gear replacement. Other damage could have occurred as a result. If the switch is bad, mere replacement is the fix. I wouldn't chase this myself, if you are under warranty. Let the dealer make the determination.
ARCTIC
07-17-2013, 11:56 AM
.i will be doing all work myself as this bike was out of warranty when i got it .i am just trying to see what i am up against .
:gaah:
Most Steel is NOT magnetic...
car body steel and frame rails etc , a magnet will stick to them .a magnet will not stick to stainless steel unless it is very low grade stainless .as far as trash not being able to get in to the oiling system , i hope that is true and then i will have very little to worry about .the mechanic at the dealership can not confirm this from his shop manual .the oil light on this bike has been erratic ever since i bought it used with only 200 KM on it .about once a week , start it up and oil light stays on .shut it off , turn engine back on and oil light goes out and stays out for however long i ride for .same thing with the CEL warning every once in a while .the electronics on this bike are very annoying .given the amount of trouble oil pressure sending units are giving people , replacing it to fix the problem is all i hope to have to do .but finding metal in the oil is usually bad news .30.00 for a manual will be a purchase i make tonight .i will have the new parts on by thursday afternoon .
WackyDan
07-17-2013, 12:04 PM
I have over 3 x the miles you have and on occasion found a small bit of metal on the magnet over the first 3 oil changes. I'm not worried about it.
Rotaxer
07-17-2013, 06:00 PM
car body steel and frame rails etc , a magnet will stick to them .a magnet will not stick to stainless steel unless it is very low grade stainless .as far as trash not being able to get in to the oiling system , i hope that is true and then i will have very little to worry about .the mechanic at the dealership can not confirm this from his shop manual .the oil light on this bike has been erratic ever since i bought it used with only 200 KM on it .about once a week , start it up and oil light stays on .shut it off , turn engine back on and oil light goes out and stays out for however long i ride for .same thing with the CEL warning every once in a while .the electronics on this bike are very annoying .given the amount of trouble oil pressure sending units are giving people , replacing it to fix the problem is all i hope to have to do .but finding metal in the oil is usually bad news .30.00 for a manual will be a purchase i make tonight .i will have the new parts on by thursday afternoon .
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................Male to Female............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .......................
Another important thing to note is that most oil pressure testers use a 1/8 NPT and the Spyder oil sender uses a M10.1 thread and they are not compatible so you will need a M10.1 x 1/8 NPT adaptor to test oil pressure. Also want to use a oil resistant thread lock when installing sender unit be very careful not to get any in the end (stay back on the threads)
bobnaquin
07-18-2013, 09:02 AM
has been running fine , including last night .when i started it up today , the oil light went out after the engine fired like it usually does .after wiping the seat down , i noticed the oil light had come back on .shut it off to reset it because ever since i have owned it this has happened off and on .light stayed out until i got to the end of my driveway and then it came back on .so i parked it and took a car to work .drained the oil tonight to find about a dozen black shards of metal came out of the block drain .most of them are random shapes except one is about 1/4" long ,1/8" base and tapers at the top like a triangle. this is a 2009 gs se5 with 7700 km on it .what does the oil pump look like ? is it a gear pump ? i need to know what might have grenaded in there .and the oil has been changed regularly , usually amsoil but ctc was out so last change i used a jug of BRP i bought at the dealers a while back .
Oddly enough I had a similar problem. My 'dealer' took apart my engine to fix an oil leak. (BTW I now let my new Spyder just leak) Upon reassembly the tech left a piece similar to what you describe out of position but inside the engine. After repeated trips to fix the low oil pressure light, the solution from BRP was to run 50 weight oil in it. When I changed the oil to 50w I pulled out the drain plug and there were the shards and the engine part. I took a picture and sent it to BRP, which is what I suggest you do, and they identified it and told the dealer where to install it correctly.
Since the errant piece had obviously been hit by another part in the engine I shortly sold that Spyder. It still had three years to go on the warranty but a warranty wasn't going to fix stupid. So I bought a used Spyder with no warranty and take it to another dealer only under a special needs situation.
So take a picture and send it to BRP. Then get it fixed. And then sell it. It will never be right, I am quite certain of that. Unless you can get a fresh engine out of the deal and then you would have to find someone who can install it correctly. Good luck. I can send you the picture if you wish.
there is no oil pressure and no flow at all .put the new sensor in, new filters and new amsoil and turned it on .oil light did not go out and i could not feel any flow when i squeezed the return hose to the tank .shut it off and thought how can i figure out if i have oil flow or not? i dont have a mechanical guage or the pieces to hook it up so i took off the cover of the transmission shift filter .bone dry .so i am pretty sure it is a non functioning oil pump , so my engine is more than likely shot .
billybovine
07-18-2013, 07:49 PM
there is no oil pressure and no flow at all .put the new sensor in, new filters and new amsoil and turned it on .oil light did not go out and i could not feel any flow when i squeezed the return hose to the tank .shut it off and thought how can i figure out if i have oil flow or not? i dont have a mechanical guage or the pieces to hook it up so i took off the cover of the transmission shift filter .bone dry .so i am pretty sure it is a non functioning oil pump , so my engine is more than likely shot .
There is something I do not understand with your symptoms. There are 3 oil pumps. There is the HCM pump (trans shifter), engine oil pump and the engine sump pump. Now the HCM pump and the engine oil pump run independently of each other so a dry HCM filter does not mean no oil flow in engine. Now if your engine oil pump is not working as well how can two pumps fail at the same time? Did you check the oil screens in the oil tank and make sure they were not clogged with dirt?
billybovine
07-18-2013, 08:11 PM
I just checked the HCM oil flow chart and I made a wrong assumption. I was right when I said that dry HCM filter is not a sign of no oil flow in engine, but may be perfectly normal until you do a gear shift.
started it up and shifted to first , you are right the trans filter is now full of oil .but still no indication of engine oil flow .i have not checked the oil tank screen yet because i dont have any clamps or the tool to cinch them tight and also i find it hard to believe a screen as big as that could clog up .the manual calls it a return line so i am going to break it open and since it should not be subjuct to high pressure i will put a temp gear clamp on .
return oil line filter clean as a whistle .no problem there .
spyryder
07-18-2013, 11:04 PM
started it up and shifted to first , you are right the trans filter is now full of oil .but still no indication of engine oil flow .i have not checked the oil tank screen yet because i dont have any clamps or the tool to cinch them tight and also i find it hard to believe a screen as big as that could clog up .the manual calls it a return line so i am going to break it open and since it should not be subjuct to high pressure i will put a temp gear clamp on .
You might be able to unbolt the hose from the engine then unscrew it from the tank without disturbing the clamp.
clamp on both ends of tube .not a problem , i think i know what went wrong now .my mystery metal shards are not metal at all , they are black structural plastic and looking at the service manual i bought today shows me what looks to be a black plastic gear that turns the oil pump assembly .jaguar tried this type of gear on their DOHC V8 moters on the chain cam drive on the heads .failed time and time again until they used a steel gear instead .the weight savings is not worth the aggravation .the pressure pump and the scavenger pump ride on the same shaft and are powered by the same plastic gear .when the gear fails , both pumps die .probably why when the gears broke off my oil light came on and off .as soon as enough teeth got chewed off to create a flat spot , no more turning pumps .this is one stupid design , and now i get to pay for it.
taking it to two wheel motorsports in guelph ont on monday .the clutch assembly has to be removed to get the new gear on so i just don't have the time to work on it .the tech is hopeful the bottom end should be OK since it was only idling at the time . don't know what i will do with it if it needs rebuilding .on the spyder parts site , new engines , long blocks etc are not even listed .just says "unavailable ".i really like this machine and so does my youngest son , i don't want to give up on it .i am also rethinking the use of 20/50 amsoil MC oil.the extra pumping force required could put more strain on the plastic gear .the bike had BRP semi-syn when this happened , prior to this i have mostly used amsoil 10/40 MC oil .
JJW SpyderRider
07-19-2013, 07:16 PM
:thumbup: Good job hunting down the problem. I hope the engine is still OK.
Buttsy
07-19-2013, 07:18 PM
Fingers crossed for a "reasonable repair" cost. Good Luck..............:pray: :pray:
billybovine
07-19-2013, 07:44 PM
Good luck. Darn is Two Wheel the closest dealer to you? That must be a 2 hour drive.
thanks for all the comments and help everyone .two wheels is the closest dealer to me , about an hour and a half if the traffic is light .i bought the bike used from lockhardts but they are 2 1/2 hours away .no spyder dealers in bruce county ,dont think there are any in grey county either .being in Mitchell, where do you go to a dealer Billy ?
two plastic gears , one oil pump(dont remember whether suction or pressure side ) , various gaskets and labour is going to be roughly 700 to 900 dollars .i have asked that the broken pieces be saved for me but the mechanic says he has no idea what caused this failure .hopefully it is just a case of a manufacturing defect in the gear set and will not repeat itself .if any one else has had an oil pump fail , please post it here .
billybovine
07-28-2013, 11:14 AM
Glad to hear you will be up and running soon.
I don't remember anyone posting that they had a oil pump gear failure before, so I don't think it happens often.
As to your question about my dealer. I bought my latest :spyder2: form Andrews Sports in St Thomas and have been happy so far except for the 1 hour and 15 minute drive to get there.
parts ordered a week ago , some have still not come in .it should not be hard to get parts for this bike , but i am still waiting .i bought a 2012 honda 750 cruiser shadow aero new old stock from my local dealer , Lynn Hoy of Wingham Ont cause it was almost as cheap as a used bike.gives me something to ride while i am waiting , and i wanted a 2 wheeler for nice sunny days .plus my youngest son and i can go riding together when i get the spyder back .
the two gears basically chewed on each others teeth until their was a groove worn in the bigger gear and the teeth on the smaller gear were worn down to nubs .no idea why they did this , bike seems to be running fine now and the dealer said it has proper oil pressure .but if anyone ever finds black shards coming out of the crankcase drain hole , confirm if they are plastic or not with a pair of side cutters and if they are plastic , take it to your dealer .repair cost includes cdn sales tax of 13% .
spyder3
08-10-2013, 08:33 AM
Glad to see your dealer got you up and running:clap:
billybovine
08-10-2013, 11:13 AM
the two gears basically chewed on each others teeth until their was a groove worn in the bigger gear and the teeth on the smaller gear were worn down to nubs .no idea why they did this , bike seems to be running fine now and the dealer said it has proper oil pressure .but if anyone ever finds black shards coming out of the crankcase drain hole , confirm if they are plastic or not with a pair of side cutters and if they are plastic , take it to your dealer .repair cost includes cdn sales tax of 13% .
Not that bad a price IMO. Must not have done many "might as well while it's apart". Get ou riding and have fun.
Flanker
08-10-2013, 02:44 PM
Glad to hear you're back on the road. Thanks for the heads up on your troubles!
aout 500 Km since the spyder was fixed .no problems so far and not burning any oil so far .with the new oil pressure sending unit , i no longer get the check engine light /oil light reset routine problem that i have had since i bought the bike .the new sender is physically different than the old unit , so if you are having problems it is a good place to start .wrote a letter to BRP about my oil pump problems and i have only had an initial response so far .i am not putting as many miles on the spyder anymore as i am riding my new 750 honda shadow aero as much as possible until the weather turns sour and then the spyder wil get the workload .two wheel also set up my parking brake and it works much better .and they did that without me asking so that was nice of them .
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