ATTN: ST OWNERS!

[JKMSPYDER]

With all the heat issues we ST owners have been having with hot left legs and some (including me) having the plastic cap on the master cylinder melt due to heat, I thought I would post some photos of what I did to alleviate the heat and what my dealer did. The 1st photo shows the exhaust pipe on the left side wrapped with exhaust wrap that can be found at most any auto store. I wrapped this pipe myself. The next photo shows the inside plastic panel and the outside panel that says Can-Am wrapped with reflective heat tape. The photo to the left shows the tape that is available at most auto stores, also. This has cut the heat down from "death valley" before, to a warm summer day after. I am not a mechanic, but this was easy to do and took about 45 minutes from start to finish. The photo below shows the right side with all four panels off. The brake master cylinder is to the left with the reflective heat tape wrapped around it, and the exhaust pipe is in front of it at the right of the photo. I put the exhaust wrap on the pipe, and the dealer wrapped the master cylinder cap once it was replaced. If you own an ST, please check your plastic MC cap to see if the heat is melting it. If you don't know how to remove the right 4 panels or don't have the time, get your dealer to do it. You don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere if you lose all your brake fluid. Should you have questions about either of these fixes, please call or email me. I'll be happy to help.

John Mattox
johnmattox60@gmail.com

828-361-2564

71705





717047170371702

[quickster47]

Well done. :thumbup:

Keep us posted as to how this holds up over the rest of the summer. It is a shame you had to do this but glad to see you've found a solution.

Carl

[Lamonster]

Coming soon from Spyderpops (http://www.spyderlovers.com/adpeeps/adpeeps.php?bf=go&uid=100000&cid=946153&aid=32&bzone=slgeneralboard&btype=3) :doorag:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71715&d=1373756078

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71714&d=1373756073

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71717&d=1373756280

[spyderyderjim]

On my 2013 Spyder RT-S I double wrapped exhaust header pipes.
Installed HP sticky reflective heat shield around Brembo brake master cylinder.
Installed Hp sticky reflective heat shield around gas tank; & over #2 cylinder to keep heat off seat & gas tank.
Gas cap now 116 deg; gas 128 deg & not boiling after ride in hot 105 deg Tucson Arizona temps.
Should help 2013 Spyder ST's also.
Probably don't need as much heat shield around gas tank as I put on; but seeing gas boiling in tank was an eye opener for me!!
Put in #9 Iridium colder running sparkplugs. (engine runs a little richer fuel ratio after Len at Pit Bull flashed ECM).
Installed Y bypass pipes & wrapped them, (Cat converter removed). (gets rid of the exhaust heat without Cat).
Had 2 Bros muffler put on for free flowing exhaust.
Hope this helps others with ST/RT heat problems.
Jim

[flamingobabe]

PittBull and Mark wrapped the right side pipe, cut the right side heat shield off...wrapped the left pipe, installed a larger heat shield , to cover the brake master cylinder...installed reflective heat shield to gas tank, master cylinder...did a flash on the fuel mix to help with running lean [richen up the air/fuel]...after 350 miles the heat issue seems much better...no more extreme heat coming from handlebar area, gas cap is not hot, the bike appears to be running smoother...was getting 34mpg compared to 19 - 30 before...I'll be putting some miles on the bike this week and will keep ya updated...will post pics later...hey Spyderpops....that looks real good..we.think it will work

[JKMSPYDER]

​FB, glad Len got you going again. Looking forward to the pics to see exactly what was done.

[lil rabbit]

Sis,

Glad you have your :spyder2: back. I know how you want things to be right and I am sure that Pitbull and Mark will do that. Will be waiting to hear how things are going with the heat issues.

Bruce





PittBull and Mark wrapped the right side pipe, cut the right side heat shield off...wrapped the left pipe, installed a larger heat shield , to cover the brake master cylinder...installed reflective heat shield to gas tank, master cylinder...did a flash on the fuel mix to help with running lean [richen up the air/fuel]...after 350 miles the heat issue seems much better...no more extreme heat coming from handlebar area, gas cap is not hot, the bike appears to be running smoother...was getting 34mpg compared to 19 - 30 before...I'll be putting some miles on the bike this week and will keep ya updated...will post pics later...hey Spyderpops....that looks real good..we.think it will work

[pro10is]

I've stated this before and I'll state it again, fiberglass or basalt pipe wrap is not an effective solution for heat issues. One eighth inch of such an insulation is simply not going to stop 900+ °F of constant heat emission. The best it can do is block some minor amount of infrared radiation, heat from conduction and convection will pass right through within minutes. It's one thing to believe the hype that thin pipe wrap can solve the burning legs issue which is relatively harmless, it's a whole other thing to believe it will prevent the master cylinder from melting which can be a life or death situation. Do not be fooled into believing pipe wrap alone can work. It would take at least six inches of an effective insulation to reduce heat due to conduction and convection from the exhaust pipes from reaching the plastic reservoir.

You can reduce or even prevent infrared radiation using a substantial reflective barrier, but heat is transmitted three ways, not just one, via radiation, conduction and convection. Think of the oven in an electric kitchen stove. You could block almost all the infrared heat from the oven's heating elements with foil or a steel sheet but the oven will still easily come up to full temperature by convection alone. It's the same problem here, the exhaust pipe is effectively a massive heating element. If either radiation, conduction, and/or convection allow the heat from the pipes to exceed the melting point of the plastic reservoir, the problem remains. You can't just deal with radiation alone and hope the problem is resolved, you have to address all three methods of heat transfer for a totally effective solution. When it comes to 900+ °F of constant heat, convection is as much if not more of an issue then radiation. Anything thin and/or reflective is only an attempt to stop radiation, not conduction or convection.

Do not accept pipe wrap or any other unsubstantial, unproven insulation as a final solution for the melting master cylinder issue. You could be endangering your life. This is a very serious problem and warrants a serious and proven solution by the manufacturer. I feel BRP should replace the plastic reservoir with a steel reservoir to effectively resolve this issue.

[JKMSPYDER]

After seeing Spyderpops heat shield mentioned by Lamont in this thread and also reading what pro10is published, I thought I would go back and try to add extra protection to the master cylinder. I went back to the auto store and bought a heat shield wrap that says it gives 2000 degree protection from radiant heat. I cut some of the shield and doubled71756 it, and wedged it between the exhaust pipe and the MC. I also used a piece to wrap around the plastic cap that already has the heat tape around it. Finally, I removed the bottom plastic panel that sits under the MC and brake pedal to give more area for heat to escape. If this doesn't keep heat off the MC plastic cap, I don't know what will.717537175471755

[OldDog]

I've stated this before and I'll state it again, fiberglass or basalt pipe wrap is not an effective solution for heat issues. One eighth inch of such an insulation is simply not going to stop 900+ °F of constant heat emission. The best it can do is block some minor amount of infrared radiation, heat from conduction and convection will pass right through within minutes. It's one thing to believe the hype that thin pipe wrap can solve the burning legs issue which is relatively harmless, it's a whole other thing to believe it will prevent the master cylinder from melting which can be a life or death situation. Do not be fooled into believing pipe wrap alone can work. It would take at least six inches of an effective insulation to reduce heat due to conduction and convection from the exhaust pipes from reaching the plastic reservoir.

You can reduce or even prevent infrared radiation using a substantial reflective barrier, but heat is transmitted three ways, not just one, via radiation, conduction and convection. Think of the oven in an electric kitchen stove. You could block almost all the infrared heat from the oven's heating elements with foil or a steel sheet but the oven will still easily come up to full temperature by convection alone. It's the same problem here, the exhaust pipe is effectively a massive heating element. If either radiation, conduction, and/or convection allow the heat from the pipes to exceed the melting point of the plastic reservoir, the problem remains. You can't just deal with radiation alone and hope the problem is resolved, you have to address all three methods of heat transfer for a totally effective solution. When it comes to 900+ °F of constant heat, convection is as much if not more of an issue then radiation. Anything thin and/or reflective is only an attempt to stop radiation, not conduction or convection.

Do not accept pipe wrap or any other unsubstantial, unproven insulation as a final solution for the melting master cylinder issue. You could be endangering your life. This is a very serious problem and warrants a serious and proven solution by the manufacturer. I feel BRP should replace the plastic reservoir with a steel reservoir to effectively resolve this issue.

Is there space under the bottom, near the cat converter to install a flat 12volt 9" high velocity racing fan to remove the convective heat? Could you get enough air moving under the Tupperware?

71785

[Sarge707]

After seeing Spyderpops heat shield mentioned by Lamont in this thread and also reading what pro10is published, I thought I would go back and try to add extra protection to the master cylinder. I went back to the auto store and bought a heat shield wrap that says it gives 2000 degree protection from radiant heat. I cut some of the shield and doubled71756 it, and wedged it between the exhaust pipe and the MC. I also used a piece to wrap around the plastic cap that already has the heat tape around it. Finally, I removed the bottom plastic panel that sits under the MC and brake pedal to give more area for heat to escape. If this doesn't keep heat off the MC plastic cap, I don't know what will.717537175471755

The Plastic piece under the Right side (Brake Side) lets a LOT more heat escape than the left side (Oil Change) piece!!
I have taken off both bottom pieces on my 2012 RT and it was 95 today with a 72 Dew Point or 100 Degrees equivalent and I only ran 4 bars most of the afternoon? Take Both pieces off and anyones Spyder will see a Big difference!!!nojoke

[pro10is]

After seeing Spyderpops heat shield mentioned by Lamont in this thread and also reading what pro10is published, I thought I would go back and try to add extra protection to the master cylinder. I went back to the auto store and bought a heat shield wrap that says it gives 2000 degree protection from radiant heat. I cut some of the shield and doubled it, and wedged it between the exhaust pipe and the MC. I also used a piece to wrap around the plastic cap that already has the heat tape around it. Finally, I removed the bottom plastic panel that sits under the MC and brake pedal to give more area for heat to escape. If this doesn't keep heat off the MC plastic cap, I don't know what will.
I really wish this or any of the solutions posted here could work but it's not likely. Again think of your kitchen oven. If you heated it up to its maximum temperature of 500 °F (which is still low compared to the 900+ °F heat coming from the exhaust) and you put a potato inside the oven do you think you could stop it from cooking just by wrapping it in layers of foil or thin insulation? You're only stopping radiated heat, you're not stopping convective heat which will soak right through the thin insulation within minutes. It may take a tad longer but the potato is going to get hot enough to cook it thoroughly just as if the insulation was never there. In fact the insulation may even help cook it better by retaining some of the heat.

Your plastic brake reservoir is in the same predicament as the potato. The only way to keep it cool is to either get it away from the heat of the exhaust or to try to dissipate the convective heat via substantial air flow or something. Insulation such as this just isn't going to do the trick. The best you can do with such insulation is to try to keep the heat just below the melting point of the plastic long enough to survive the duration of the ride. However this method may still leave you stranded without brakes when you take that two hour trip on a very hot day. I certainly wouldn't trust my life with it.

What needs to be done is to either move the plastic reservoir away from the exhaust pipe or replace it with something that can take the heat such as metal. Even then heating the brake fluid so high is never good idea. When brake fluid gets hot it can boil. When it boils you will have gas in your lines and since gas, unlike fluid, is compressible you will no longer have brakes.

In any event this is very serious. No one should be coming up with their own makeshift solutions, this need to be resolved by BRP. Anyone offering a possible solution to others for this needs to scientifically test it very thoroughly, prove it works beyond a shadow of a doubt, and assume the responsibility of a possible fatality if it doesn't. Were talking people's lives here folks, not just hot legs.

[Zenagirl]

I really wish this or any of the solutions posted here could work but it's not likely. Again think of your kitchen oven. If you heated it up to its maximum temperature of 500 °F (which is still low compared to the 900+ °F heat coming from the exhaust) and you put a potato inside the oven do you think you could stop it from cooking just by wrapping it in layers of foil or thin insulation? You're only stopping radiated heat, you're not stopping convective heat which will soak right through the thin insulation within minutes. It may take a tad longer but the potato is going to get hot enough to cook it thoroughly just as if the insulation was never there. In fact the insulation may even help cook it better by retaining some of the heat.

Your plastic brake reservoir is in the same predicament as the potato. The only way to keep it cool is to either get it away from the heat of the exhaust or to try to dissipate the convective heat via substantial air flow or something. Insulation such as this just isn't going to do the trick. The best you can do with such insulation is to try to keep the heat just below the melting point of the plastic long enough to survive the duration of the ride. However this method may still leave you stranded without brakes when you take that two hour trip on a very hot day. I certainly wouldn't trust my life with it.

What needs to be done is to either move the plastic reservoir away from the exhaust pipe or replace it with something that can take the heat such as metal. Even then heating the brake fluid so high is never good idea. When brake fluid gets hot it can boil. When it boils you will have gas in your lines and since gas, unlike fluid, is compressible you will no longer have brakes.

In any event this is very serious. No one should be coming up with their own makeshift solutions, this need to be resolved by BRP. Anyone offering a possible solution to others for this needs to scientifically test it very thoroughly, prove it works beyond a shadow of a doubt, and assume the responsibility of a possible fatality if it doesn't. Were talking people's lives here folks, not just hot legs.

Is BRP addressing this issue? Are they going to replace the plastic caps with metal ones? I brought up all the extra heat complaints to my dealership last week when I took my Spyder (ST-L) in for its first maintenance, and the tech said he'd do some research regarding my complaint, but it doesn't seem like he's getting many "heat" complaints or has seen the "melted plastic cap" issue.... so just wondering.....

[JacqueTanis]

We took the bottom panel off of the left side and I rode for a little under 200 miles - The hot air coming from the opening was so uncomfortable I had to keep adjusting my leg to keep from getting burned and the left side still gets so hot I can hardly touch it. It's dangerous - I'm so busy concentrating on not burning myself I cannot give proper attention to the road. I have exhaust wrapped the exhaust pipe and silicone sprayed it and we've added heat deflector sheets to the panels - no luck yet ...
:gaah:

The Plastic piece under the Right side (Brake Side) lets a LOT more heat escape than the left side (Oil Change) piece!!
I have taken off both bottom pieces on my 2012 RT and it was 95 today with a 72 Dew Point or 100 Degrees equivalent and I only ran 4 bars most of the afternoon? Take Both pieces off and anyones Spyder will see a Big difference!!!nojoke

[OldDog]

Is BRP addressing this issue? Are they going to replace the plastic caps with metal ones? I brought up all the extra heat complaints to my dealership last week when I took my Spyder (ST-L) in for its first maintenance, and the tech said he'd do some research regarding my complaint, but it doesn't seem like he's getting many "heat" complaints or has seen the "melted plastic cap" issue.... so just wondering.....

Why do we keep reading that this dealer or that doesn't know about the heat issues with the 2013? How does BRP relate these known issues to the dealer? :dontknow:

[JacqueTanis]

I purchased my ST last month. Left side hot, hot, hot. I'm not technically competent or knowledgeable as many of your other members. All I know is that it's uncomfortable to drive and dangerous - so hot that it's uncomfortable to touch after only 8 miles and the screws holding the panels would leave a scar from the burn. After reading several posts we wrapped and silicone coated the exhaust and added heat deflection sheets to the panels. Not quite so many hot spots but the area where the two panels (and surrounding areas) come together under my leg still gets unbearably hot, along with the screws. We thought perhaps all that plastic is trapping the heat from the engine underneath the plastic so John removed the bottom panel from the left side - unfortunately it just let all that hot air blow all over my leg (not too bright huh? :opps: . Anyway, frustrated - it's dangerous, I spend too much time concentrating on how to keep my leg cool and not enough on the road. Do you think this deflector will solve the problem and do you have any idea when it will be coming out?

Coming soon from Spyderpops (http://www.spyderlovers.com/adpeeps/adpeeps.php?bf=go&uid=100000&cid=946153&aid=32&bzone=slgeneralboard&btype=3) :doorag:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71715&d=1373756078

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71714&d=1373756073

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=71717&d=1373756280

[SpyderMouse22]

I've stated this before and I'll state it again, fiberglass or basalt pipe wrap is not an effective solution for heat issues. One eighth inch of such an insulation is simply not going to stop 900+ °F of constant heat emission. The best it can do is block some minor amount of infrared radiation, heat from conduction and convection will pass right through within minutes. It's one thing to believe the hype that thin pipe wrap can solve the burning legs issue which is relatively harmless, it's a whole other thing to believe it will prevent the master cylinder from melting which can be a life or death situation. Do not be fooled into believing pipe wrap alone can work. It would take at least six inches of an effective insulation to reduce heat due to conduction and convection from the exhaust pipes from reaching the plastic reservoir.

You can reduce or even prevent infrared radiation using a substantial reflective barrier, but heat is transmitted three ways, not just one, via radiation, conduction and convection. Think of the oven in an electric kitchen stove. You could block almost all the infrared heat from the oven's heating elements with foil or a steel sheet but the oven will still easily come up to full temperature by convection alone. It's the same problem here, the exhaust pipe is effectively a massive heating element. If either radiation, conduction, and/or convection allow the heat from the pipes to exceed the melting point of the plastic reservoir, the problem remains. You can't just deal with radiation alone and hope the problem is resolved, you have to address all three methods of heat transfer for a totally effective solution. When it comes to 900+ °F of constant heat, convection is as much if not more of an issue then radiation. Anything thin and/or reflective is only an attempt to stop radiation, not conduction or convection.

Do not accept pipe wrap or any other unsubstantial, unproven insulation as a final solution for the melting master cylinder issue. You could be endangering your life. This is a very serious problem and warrants a serious and proven solution by the manufacturer. I feel BRP should replace the plastic reservoir with a steel reservoir to effectively resolve this issue.

I guess i am lucky I have two dealers that i go to that must be very honest. When i went in for my first service for my ST Limited I mentioned the heat issues. The well trained tech at first said nothing. I said you don't have to give me the normal response that you never heard of this before. He said to me that he did hear of heat issues. So i wanted them to wrap my exhaust pipes to help with the issue if they thought it would help. The tech talked to the service manager and he told me he didn't think it would help. They had no solution but they didn't take my money either.

[Bob Denman]

Pro...
I don't really mean to try and contradict you... :opps: You sure seem to have forgotten more about this sort of this than I'll ever even begin to know. :thumbup:
But folks aren't looking to stop ALL of the heat; they just need to reduce it to an acceptable level.
If we're hearing postiive reports from the folks who have made these mods; :thumbup: Why try to rain on their Parade? :dontknow:
(Sorry...)

[JKMSPYDER]

Bob I agree with you. I also appreciate what Pro said, but if we owners have to park our Spyders and wait on BRP to do something, we could possibly be waiting months and miss the best part of the riding season. I agree that we can't block all the heat, but if we can get it low enough not to melt plastic MC caps or burn our legs, then we are at least doing SOMETHING! By reading this forum, I think that sometimes we Spyder owners collectively can help the BRP engineers solve a problem by suggesting homemade solutions. Thanks for speaking up for us that are trying to solve the problem.

[flamingobabe]

First I'll address that BRP has been working with me and Dealer, PitBUll....Mark and I decided that we would wrap the pipes, with 2" wrap, overlapping 1", using stainless steel clamps, near master cylinder Mark cut off heat shield, double wrapped the pipe in that area, then installed a larger heat shield that is temporary until we get home and he can design and build a permanent heat shield.....where the pipes are wrapped over the heat shield on others spyders...Mark believes this is not a good thing...that is why he cut mine off and installed a larger temp one until we get home....wrapping the pipes does not make no heat on the Spyder , but it allows the BTU's to flow fast out the exhaust, thus appearing that there is less heat...Mark can explain this better...BRP did a flash on the ECM to address the engine running lean....I have put 600 miles on the Spyder after this and it appears the Spyder is running smoother and getting better gas mileage ...time will tell...I can say that doing these 2 things, wrap pipes and Flash from BRP, I have less heat coming out of the handlebar area, seat area, and over all....the panels still get warm...but not HOT....Mark decides that we would only do 2 things some we could measure the results...rather than doing several things and not know what actually worked...we will go back to PitBull on Saturday and check everything out...................just saying...My concerns about the heat was NEVER about a hot foot or leg...I can move them around...but I was having excessive heat at gas cap, too hot to touch, boiling gas, extreme heat at handlebar area...those seem to have disappeared

[pro10is]

Pro...
I don't really mean to try and contradict you... :opps: You sure seem to have forgotten more about this sort of this than I'll ever even begin to know. :thumbup:
But folks aren't looking to stop ALL of the heat; they just need to reduce it to an acceptable level.
If we're hearing postiive reports from the folks who have made these mods; :thumbup: Why try to rain on their Parade? :dontknow:
(Sorry...)
Bob,
Please don't get me wrong, my intention is not to rain on anyone's parade and I applaud owners' attempts to try to resolve the problem, however misguided. I'm just very concerned due to two reasons. One, these are brakes we're dealing with here and thus people's lives are at stake, and two, there seems to be a gross misconception on how heat transfers because the attempts at resolving the problem thus far use unscientific and inadequate measures to provide an effective solution. I'm very concerned that anyone may offer or even try to sell these unproven, untested makeshift modifications to people who may believe they will be safe after installing them. We're talking melting brake components here, am I the only one greatly alarmed by this?

For a problem as serious as this anyone who has a vehicle involved should immediately file a report with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration here: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ to make the NHTSA aware of the problem and possibly force a recall. Any design deficiency that could potentially result in the loss of brakes, especially on a motorcycle, should most definitely not be handled by the owners of the vehicles themselves or by any third party. Rather the manufacturer should issue an immediate recall and do whatever is necessary to make the vehicles safe for operation.

[flamingobabe]

let me say something else...when the master cylinder was replaced...and Mark made them bleed the brakes...the fluid was black and gummy...suppose to be clear..so if and when a master cylinder is replace ...everything has to be replaced ....and concerns about this problem is very serious...I have not rode my Spyder since finding the cylinder melted and BRP asked me not to ride it....we trailered the Spyder to PitBUll...750 miles

[Jeriatric]

let me say something else...when the master cylinder was replaced...and Mark made them bleed the brakes...the fluid was black and gummy...suppose to be clear..so if and when a master cylinder is replace ...everything has to be replaced ....and concerns about this problem is very serious...I have not rode my Spyder since finding the cylinder melted and BRP asked me not to ride it....we trailered the Spyder to PitBUll...750 miles

nojoke

[Lamonster]

First I'll address that BRP has been working with me and Dealer, PitBUll....Mark and I decided that we would wrap the pipes, with 2" wrap, overlapping 1", using stainless steel clamps, near master cylinder Mark cut off heat shield, double wrapped the pipe in that area, then installed a larger heat shield that is temporary until we get home and he can design and build a permanent heat shield.....where the pipes are wrapped over the heat shield on others spyders...Mark believes this is not a good thing...that is why he cut mine off and installed a larger temp one until we get home....wrapping the pipes does not make no heat on the Spyder , but it allows the BTU's to flow fast out the exhaust, thus appearing that there is less heat...Mark can explain this better...BRP did a flash on the ECM to address the engine running lean....I have put 600 miles on the Spyder after this and it appears the Spyder is running smoother and getting better gas mileage ...time will tell...I can say that doing these 2 things, wrap pipes and Flash from BRP, I have less heat coming out of the handlebar area, seat area, and over all....the panels still get warm...but not HOT....Mark decides that we would only do 2 things some we could measure the results...rather than doing several things and not know what actually worked...we will go back to PitBull on Saturday and check everything out...................just saying...My concerns about the heat was NEVER about a hot foot or leg...I can move them around...but I was having excessive heat at gas cap, too hot to touch, boiling gas, extreme heat at handlebar area...those seem to have disappeared

I'm heading to Montreal in a couple of days and have been working to get my heat under control. So far I pulled both of the splash pans off the bottom and wrapped the left pipe about a foot. I ordered this for the 90 on that side and it should be here Tuesday. http://www.thermotec.com/products/11600-clamp-on-heat-shield.html
I'm not so sure that cutting the heat shield off was a good idea on yours, as you can see in the link that part of what makes this work is it has built in standoffs in the cover. To me it makes more sense to have that air space there. My temp gun will tell me for sure.

I've also added some 2000 degree heat barrier on the left side where my leg was getting hot. This and the pipe wrap seemed to help a bunch and when Harvey gets here on Wednesday we have a few areas we're going to close off that I know for sure is letting heat in. The one thing that's cooking me is my right foot with these floorboards. I shot the temps right above my foot and it's 176 degrees. We have some ideas how to get that temp down too.

We all have our ways of solving the same problem and as long as it works for you that's what counts. I'm getting there with the mods I've done but still not where I want to be and on this 2000 mile trip this weekend I want to be as cool as I can be. Maybe I'll pull it all off this winter. :joke:

[Tx web rider]

glad spyderpops has an upcoming fix (again) for BRP mistakes

but i would scream for a permanent fix from brp or even have them purchase the spyder pops panel and retro it as a recall to all that have the ST

more and more i hear the shoddy crap in the ST i am glad i kept my 09

[pro10is]

...wrapping the pipes does not make no heat on the Spyder , but it allows the BTU's to flow fast out the exhaust, thus appearing that there is less heat...
I'm sorry but this misinterpretation of what pipe wrap does is invalid for resolving the brake issue and is exactly the kind of misguided attempt at fixing the problem that I'm talking about. The only valid scientific reason to wrap pipes is to allow a small amount of radiated heat to be reflected back into the exhaust gases in an attempt to make them a bit hotter. Hotter exhaust gases are less dense and will flow easier. This is called exhaust scavenging and in some circumstances this will help produce a tiny bit more power. It's used by racers who need to scavenge every bit of power they can get and it is the actual and only valid reason that pipe wrap exists.

However to assume the tiny amount of radiated heat reflected back by the wrap will help resolve the gross amount of heat transferred from the pipes is completely misguided and does not take into consideration the massive amount of convected heat which simply cannot be stopped by pipe wrap or any other type of radiation shielding. Again, please think of an electric kitchen oven. If you blocked all of the infrared radiation given off by the heating element the oven would have absolutely no problem coming up to its full temperature. In fact the new LG ovens do exactly this. The heating element is completely encased under a metal cover to prevent anything spilling on it. The LG engineers knew they could do this because the element does not require any radiated heat at all to heat the oven completely by convection. If you don't believe me then take a trip to your local appliance store and see for yourself. Unless you plan to ride in outer space you cannot stop the heat from your exhaust by simply blocking radiation.

Folks, many motorcycle mechanics are highly talented and they have good intentions at trying to resolve this issue. But they just don't understand the problem because we're dealing with an issue that only a thermodynamics engineer should tackle. I fully understand and sympathize that many of you are looking for a temporary solution until BRP steps up to the plate, but please don't be fooled into believing that any of these temporary solutions are safe, they are not, and your life is on the line if you should lose your brakes. I'm sorry I'm not telling you what you want to hear but I am telling you what you need to hear.

If you want your vehicles to be safe again contact both BRP and the NHTSA and demand a recall and an effective solution.

[spyderyderjim]

Bob,
Please don't get me wrong, my intention is not to rain on anyone's parade and I applaud owners' attempts to try to resolve the problem, however misguided. I'm just very concerned due to two reasons. One, these are brakes we're dealing with here and thus people's lives are at stake, and two, there seems to be a gross misconception on how heat transfers because the attempts at resolving the problem thus far use unscientific and inadequate measures to provide an effective solution. I'm very concerned that anyone may offer or even try to sell these unproven, untested makeshift modifications to people who may believe they will be safe after installing them. We're talking melting brake components here, am I the only one greatly alarmed by this?

For a problem as serious as this anyone who has a vehicle involved should immediately file a report with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration here: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ to make the NHTSA aware of the problem and possibly force a recall. Any design deficiency that could potentially result in the loss of brakes, especially on a motorcycle, should most definitely not be handled by the owners of the vehicles themselves or by any third party. Rather the manufacturer should issue an immediate recall and do whatever is necessary to make the vehicles safe for operation.

Hi (what is your 1st name?,
Do you own/ryde a 2013 Spyder RT/ST? Heat reflective mods done have lowered exhaust temps to prevent gas from boiling in tank; & heat temps LOWERED around brake master cylinder so we can safely continue ryding in 105 deg (Arizona) temps. BRP will have a permanent heat fix in a month or so, then we all can have that change.
My 2013 Spyder RT-S did NOT have melted plastic cover on brake master cylinder after 3,000 miles WITHOUT a heat reflecting cover around it.
I feel that was due to Len at Pit Bull initial setup on 2013 RT-S, flashed ECM so RT fuel ratio runs richer/cooler with slight black, in 2 Bros muffler tailpipe,
Y bypass pipes (Cat removed), #9 Iridium sparkplugs that run cooler.
After exhaust pipe wrap, & heat reflective mods heat temps lowered about half.
Left exhaust pipe without wrap: 285 deg; with wrap 123 deg.
Right exhaust pipe without wrap: 383 deg; with wrap 197 deg.
Temp in front of gas tank 153 deg.
Gas in tank 128 deg, gas cap 116 deg after heat reflective mods, & NO boiling gas.
Temp in front of brake master cylinder heat reflection 184 deg. (after a 30 mile ryde in 101 deg heat).
I did this same wrap, reflective heat shield on 2011 Spyder RT with 22,000 miles trouble/heat free.
People on here are just sharing what heat mods helped CUT DOWN on heat 2013 Spyder RT/ST so we all can continue to ride while BRP comes up with a permanet fix!!
Thank you for your input. Jim :)

[Lamonster]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world. :doorag:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30602&d=1313439362

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30601&d=1313439361

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30600&d=1313439359


I'm sorry but this misinterpretation of what pipe wrap does is invalid for resolving the brake issue and is exactly the kind of misguided attempt at fixing the problem that I'm talking about. The only valid scientific reason to wrap pipes is to allow a small amount of radiated heat to be reflected back into the exhaust gases in an attempt to make them a bit hotter. Hotter exhaust gases are less dense and will flow easier. This is called exhaust scavenging and in some circumstances this will help produce a tiny bit more power. It's used by racers who need to scavenge every bit of power they can get and it is the actual and only valid reason that pipe wrap exists.

However to assume the tiny amount of radiated heat reflected back by the wrap will help resolve the gross amount of heat transferred from the pipes is completely misguided and does not take into consideration the massive amount of convected heat which simply cannot be stopped by pipe wrap or any other type of radiation shielding. Again, please think of an electric kitchen oven. If you blocked all of the infrared radiation given off by the heating element the oven would have absolutely no problem coming up to its full temperature. In fact the new LG ovens do exactly this. The heating element is completely encased under a metal cover to prevent anything spilling on it. The LG engineers knew they could do this because the element does not require any radiated heat at all to heat the oven completely by convection. If you don't believe me then take a trip to your local appliance store and see for yourself. Unless you plan to ride in outer space you cannot stop the heat from your exhaust by simply blocking radiation.

Folks, many motorcycle mechanics are highly talented and they have good intentions at trying to resolve this issue. But they just don't understand the problem because we're dealing with an issue that only a thermodynamics engineer should tackle. I fully understand and sympathize that many of you are looking for a temporary solution until BRP steps up to the plate, but please don't be fooled into believing that any of these temporary solutions are safe, they are not, and your life is on the line if you should lose your brakes. I'm sorry I'm not telling you what you want to hear but I am telling you what you need to hear.

If you want your vehicles to be safe again contact both BRP and the NHTSA and demand a recall and an effective solution.

[pro10is]

Hi (what is your 1st name?,
Do you own/ryde a 2013 Spyder RT/ST? Heat reflective mods done have lowered exhaust temps to prevent gas from boiling in tank; & heat temps LOWERED around brake master cylinder so we can safely continue ryding in 105 deg (Arizona) temps. BRP will have a permanent heat fix in a month or so, then we all can have that change.
My 2013 Spyder RT-S did NOT have melted plastic cover on brake master cylinder after 3,000 miles WIHOUT a heat reflecting cover around it.
I feel that was due to Len at Pit Bull initial setup on 2013 RT-S, flashed ECM so RT fuel ratio runs richer/cooler with slight black, in 2 Bros muffler tailpipe,
Y bypass pipes (Cat removed), #9 Iridium sparkplugs that run cooler.
After exhaust pipe wrap, & heat reflective mods heat temps lowered about half.
Left exhaust pipe without wrap: 285 deg; with wrap 123 deg.
Right exhaust pipe without wrap: 383 deg; with wrap 197 deg.
Temp in front of gas tank 153 deg.
Gas in tank 128 deg, gas cap 116 deg after heat reflective mods, & NO boiling gas.
Temp in front of brake master cylinder heat reflection 184 deg. (after a 30 mile ryde in 101 deg heat).
I did this same wrap, reflective heat shield on 2011 Spyder RT with 22,000 miles trouble/heat free.
People on here are just sharing what heat mods helped CUT DOWN on heat 2013 Spyder RT/ST so we all can continue to ride while BRP comes up with a permanet fix!!
Thank you for your input. Jim :)
Jim, my first name is Jim.

I do not own a 2013, I own a 2011 RS-S. It too has heat issues but only with burning legs, nothing as serious as melting brake components. I cannot speak for the ECM flash or the cat removal but I can tell you all the heat mods I've done to my Spyder have not worked. I used DEI Titanium heat wrap, removed the pipes and carefully wrapped them with a full overlap. I also installed several reflective and conductive heat barriers of various designs. I tried to measured the temperature of the pipes before wrapping with my infrared thermometer which tops out at 800 °F. It overloaded and returned "Hi" for the temperature as expected. After I wrapped the pipes I again tried to read the temperature. It again read "Hi" so they're still over 800 °F so if there was any improvement it was insignificant. There was no significant improvement of the amount or intensity of heat reaching my legs with any mods I have yet made. There was no use attempting to measure this heat before and after due to the varying dynamics of air flow when riding but again there was no improvement at any speed. I don't understand how anyone can recommend pipe wrap when it's obvious both scientifically and when empirically tested that it cannot and does not work to effectively reduce heat transfer.

I'm not telling anyone here not to try to find a temporary solution for themselves, your life is in your own hands as it should be. I'm only trying to let everyone know not to trust any unproven solution believing it's safe to ride with the melting brake component issue. I've seen no solution so far that has any real merit when it comes to telling others they made ride safely if they install them, even temporarily. I cannot believe anyone else would do so either.

To those of you who propose unproven solutions, think carefully of what you are doing. Do you really want to recommend to someone who may have faith in you a possibly flawed solution when it may cost them their life?

To those of you who may consider any of these unproven solutions, beware, you are not safe until a proven solution exists no matter what anyone says. Proceed at your own risk.

[Jeriatric]

To those of you who may consider any of these unproven solutions, beware, you are not safe until a proven solution exists no matter what anyone says. Proceed at your own risk.


Owners Manual - pg 166
What to do to obtain warranty coverage

The customer must cease using the spyder roadster upon the appearance of an anomaly. The customer must notify a servicing spyder dealer within two (2) days of the appearance of a defect, and provide it with reasonable opportunity to repair it.



CONSUMER ASSISTANCE

In the event of a controversy or a dispute in connection with this limited warranty, BRP suggests that you try to resolve the issue at the dealership level. We recommend discussing the issue with the authorized Spyder Dealer's service manager or owner, before contacting us.


FYI - only

[Zygos]

I'm heading to Montreal in a couple of days and have been working to get my heat under control. So far I pulled both of the splash pans off the bottom and wrapped the left pipe about a foot. I ordered this for the 90 on that side and it should be here Tuesday. http://www.thermotec.com/products/11600-clamp-on-heat-shield.html
I'm not so sure that cutting the heat shield off was a good idea on yours, as you can see in the link that part of what makes this work is it has built in standoffs in the cover. To me it makes more sense to have that air space there. My temp gun will tell me for sure.

I've also added some 2000 degree heat barrier on the left side where my leg was getting hot. This and the pipe wrap seemed to help a bunch and when Harvey gets here on Wednesday we have a few areas we're going to close off that I know for sure is letting heat in. The one thing that's cooking me is my right foot with these floorboards. I shot the temps right above my foot and it's 176 degrees. We have some ideas how to get that temp down too.

We all have our ways of solving the same problem and as long as it works for you that's what counts. I'm getting there with the mods I've done but still not where I want to be and on this 2000 mile trip this weekend I want to be as cool as I can be. Maybe I'll pull it all off this winter. :joke:


Well I for one sir would appreciate any results you will share with the rest of us so we/I may incorporate them on my ST

thank you for your time and efforts

Barry

[pro10is]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world. :doorag:


Lamont,
I highly respect you and do not wish to contradict you, however you of all people should be extra, extra careful of anything you say in this particular very serious case. What you say is good enough for you will be good enough for almost all, so unless you know for certain, which none of us do at this point including thermotec or BRP, no one including even you should allude that any of these unproven solutions are safe until proven. There is the potential for a fatality here, need I say more? BRP needs to resolve this, and the results need to be proven beyond any doubt and be good enough for all because their lives depend on it.

What you call the book world I call science, and science is all about the real world and what allows these vehicles to even exist.

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: Let's all just "enhance our calm"... in this "Heated" discussion... :D
I'm real glad to hear that there are a whole bunch of folks working on this one... :2thumbs:
(Put enough heads together, and soon you'll have a real brain!) :joke:

For the record I've got an 2010 RT, and have never had heat issues...
Yesterday; I took it for a spin while wearing shorts; something that I've never done before... :yikes:
I could feel the hot air coming up around my lower legs...
Noticeable; not objectionable. :thumbup:
But everybody has their own personal measure of discomfort... :shocked:

[OldDog]

:shocked: Let's all just "enhance our calm"... in this "Heated" discussion... :D
I'm real glad to hear that there are a whole bunch of folks working on this one... :2thumbs:
(Put enough heads together, and soon you'll have a real brain!) :joke:

For the record I've got an 2010 RT, and have never had heat issues...
Yesterday; I took it for a spin while wearing shorts; something that I've never done before... :yikes:
I could feel the hot air coming up around my lower legs...
Noticeable; not objectionable. :thumbup:
But everybody has their own personal measure of discomfort... :shocked:

Bob this may sound pie in the sky, but has BRP ever considered putting the engine behind the driver. This would be a radical redesign.:dontknow:
Make the frontal area frunk and a ten gallon fuel tank for instance and make it more aerodynamic. Just a thought.

[pro10is]

I'm sorry Bro but you type a good game but real world tells us what we are doing works. This company does nothing but make heat solutions for automotive products and I would think that if they didn't do the job there would be no company. http://www.thermotec.com

I may not have the science to prove my point but I do have temps before and after to know what works and what doesn't and if my rider comfort improves that's good enough for me. I have done some shots with a thermal imaging to see where the problem areas are.

This is real world, not book world. :doorag:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30602&d=1313439362

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30601&d=1313439361

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30600&d=1313439359
At the risk of further incurring your or anyone else's wrath please understand that these FLIR scans show only infrared radiation escaping from outside the covers. In order to accurately measure the real world situation you need to remove the covers and take additional scans or use temperature probes to read the convective heat as well. If you don't you cannot correctly and accurately diagnose and assess the actual situation which is critical in the case of the melting brake components.

You don't seem to believe my findings so I include this reference on infrared scanning so you do not have to take just my word for it:
http://www.faithenterprisesinc.com/resources/infrared-scanning-20120123153310

I'm only trying to offer the benefits of my three plus decades of solving highly complex engineering problems in real world manufacturing environments where products and companies will fail if not done properly. I am most certainly not living solely in an academic world only as you seem to imply. I'm sorry you do not respect my lifetime of experience as I do yours.

Anyone else can feel free to flame me but my only crime here is looking out for the safety of my fellow riders.

[NancysToy]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level. If it can be diverted, same result. It doesn't matter what the source temperature is, just how much is radiated to the rider and the Spyder components. I agree that this is a serious matter, and should be reporte to the NHTSA is master cylinder damage occurs or the brake fluid becomes deteriorated. The same may appl y for the boiling fuel and untouchable gas caps. Meanwhile, if reflectors, heat shields, fans, insulation, or any combination of these things can help, I see no reason not to implement them if an owner wishes to do so. Arguing points of view is serving no purpose. JMHO

[Bob Denman]

Bob this may sound pie in the sky, but has BRP ever considered putting the engine behind the driver. This would be a radical redesign.:dontknow:
Make the frontal area frunk and a ten gallon fuel tank for instance and make it more aerodynamic. Just a thought.
Packaging the engine, transmission, fuel tank and final drive with that parameter as the primary one would be... unwieldy! :shocked:

[OldDog]

Packaging the engine, transmission, fuel tank and final drive with that parameter as the primary one would be... unwieldy! :shocked:


And I want it for $14999!:roflblack:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=T-Rex+Trike&mid=915B75AA888A1B43CA2A915B75AA888A1B43CA2A&view=detail&FORM=VIRE5

I realize this is apples and oranges but it looks cool! The engine is in the back, but it steers like a car I believe. I prefer the ergos of the Spyder ST.
When BRP resolves this, I think sales of the ST will take off. It is paramount on several levels that they do. nojoke

[MidLifeCrisis]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level.

:agree:100%. After applying all said useless and misguided heat wraps/shielding, I've eliminated most riding discomfort associated with heat as well as too hot to touch panels and boiling gas. A useless and misguided endeavor indeed. The added performance and gas mileage is just the icing:)

[Bob Denman]

Another satisfied customer... with another imperfect solution! :2thumbs: :dontknow:
If the horse that you're on wins the Derby; do you care what color it's eyes are? :D

[pro10is]

:agree:100%. After applying all said useless and misguided heat wraps/shielding, I've eliminated most riding discomfort associated with heat as well as too hot to touch panels and boiling gas. A useless and misguided endeavor indeed. The added performance and gas mileage is just the icing:)
Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

[pro10is]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level. If it can be diverted, same result. It doesn't matter what the source temperature is, just how much is radiated to the rider and the Spyder components. I agree that this is a serious matter, and should be reporte to the NHTSA is master cylinder damage occurs or the brake fluid becomes deteriorated. The same may appl y for the boiling fuel and untouchable gas caps. Meanwhile, if reflectors, heat shields, fans, insulation, or any combination of these things can help, I see no reason not to implement them if an owner wishes to do so. Arguing points of view is serving no purpose. JMHO
I have failed to make even you understand the distinct and vital difference between thermal radiation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation) and convection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convective_heat_transfer), and that convection not radiation is the real culprit and danger here and cannot be so easily stopped. Didn't anyone here take high school physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer)? Does anyone understand what convection is and how it works? The brake reservoir is sitting in a convection oven not a microwave or infrared oven. All that wrap and those shiny, thin shields will never stop or divert convection or conduction. Just because something looks as if it should work does not mean it will work. If I can't make someone as intelligent as you understand and back me up on this when lives may be at stake, I may as well give up. :banghead: Good Lord. By all means carry on with your "solutions" folks, you all seem to know more than me. If anyone dies, so be it.

I can only imagine several hundred years ago how difficult it must have been to try to make even intelligent people understand the world was round when everyone could very well see and knew damn well it was most certainly flat.

Ride safely everyone and the best of luck to you.

[JKMSPYDER]

Ok, I have a question for our thermodynamics expert. Why is it that when I use a reflective windshield thingy in my front windshield on a hot summer day, the interior is much cooler at the end of the afternoon than if I don't use it. Theory says that if I block out some of the radiant heat, then I'm still going to have the same conductive and convective heat. Can any of you SLers back me up on this if you use a windshield reflective shield on a hot day? Here's my theory. If I can block some of the radiant heat, then a conductive and convective heat will be blocked proportionally. I have had a CD melt on my dash on a hot summer day without a shield, but never when using the shield. I'm not a PhD, nor have a genius IQ, but the windshield reflector works and I have cut down tremendously the heat on my left leg by using exhaust wrap and reflective tape. Hopefully what I have done to block radiant heat from the MC cap will work. Again, if I can keep the heat on the MC cap below the melting point by shielding the cap, isn't that success? I don't mean to question our expert's knowledge, but I can only tell you my real world experience.

[Jeriatric]

Convective and Radiant Heat Transfer Equations



http://blowers.chee.arizona.edu/cooking/heat/convection.html (http://blowers.chee.arizona.edu/cooking/heat/convection.html)


http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/transfer.html

[Netminder]

I really didn't want to comment on this post as I am definitely not an engineer!But I would have to agree with both sides of this heat control debate. If people are seeing real success in cutting down the heat and preventing melting plastic, :clap::clap:! But that being said, this is definitely a major issue that BRP has to address ASAP (which I am sure/hope they are)as it has the potential for devastating result. I also see by looking at pics that the shield cannot do anything but help, when you have a plastic cap that close to a exhaust,(pretty direct heat!)it is not good. I have a friend who is a mechanic and drives a Harley and when I told him of this issue, he said his Harley has a heat shied in front of the master cylinder for that reason, and to keep the fluid from heating up,so if Harley has it, :dontknow:they have been in the business a long time? Understanding that they are not wrapped in as much Tupperware!:dontknow:

[Jeriatric]

Net, you're correct. The shield will help. Up to a point, because it will block radiant heat. However, once the radiant heat level falls below the tempratures of convective heat. The shield is no longer serving a purpose.

Take you Harley friends heat shield. It sets generally in open air. So, it with the aid of ambient air circulation does what it is designed to do. Protect the master cylinder from radiant heat.

That's not what happens under the tupperware of a spyder. A heat shield will help until convective heat exceeds the shields reflective ability. Convective heat is heat that is trapped inside the tupperware and rolls from the top of the tupperware to the bottom. It is constantly being reheated and cycling as long as the spyder is running. The higher the tempratures you're running the spyder in the higher the tempratures within the tupperware will be. As well, the longer you run the spyder(to a point) the higher the convective heat will build in intensity.

And, you're right again. Someone did not conduct real world testing before this product was released to the public, or this would not be happening.

[Netminder]

Jerbear, yes I do understand what you stated above?:thumbup: Hence the Tupperware comment at the end. I think the only real solution for the Spyder heat issues, is chroming up some of the motor parts and getting rid of some of the Tupperware!:ohyea: What about some of the newer BMW.s or such that seem to have lots of Tupperware? How are they addressing these issues? To much plastic! Bet you Dave and Teddy had no heat issues when they rode Ted's sled naked for a while!:thumbup:

[quickster47]

So, has anyone filed a complaint with the NHTSA regarding heat problems with the ST?

I mean folks keep saying it needs to be done but has anyone actually done it?

Carl

[JKMSPYDER]

Yes I have filed a complaint. They assigned me a case number and I haven't heard from them since. Regarding the MC cap issue, many of us that are shielding the cap are also discarding the bottom plastic panels to help the heat escape. But I realize this won't help much if I am idling at a stop light on a hot day as heat inside the tupperware rises.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

That's because sometimes you have to take what science tells you and apply some reason, logic and testing to see what the final outcome is. Don't know what to tell you. You keep insisting I've accomplished nothing, because science says so and I keep saying I have, because my wife doesn't burn her legs and behind, since the change, so who are you going to believe.

The one thing the scientific facts you often quote don't take into account is the movement of air. All things you say are factual, but if you can distribute heat across a larger area, such as the headers, apply insulation to the inside of panels, which again helps reduce direct heat and distribute heat across a larger area, then add some air movement, however minimal, maybe, just maybe there may be some successful reduction in perceived heat.

Since my wife perceives less heat and so do I, and the fact that there has been some increase in performance, and mileage, I would call that a success. I suppose that makes me a genius as you so well put it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Netminder]

That's because sometimes you have to take what science tells you and apply some reason, logic and testing to see what the final outcome is. Don't know what to tell you. You keep insisting I've accomplished nothing, because science says so and I keep saying I have, because my wife doesn't burn her legs and behind, since the change, so who are you going to believe.

The one thing the scientific facts you often quote don't take into account is the movement of air. All things you say are factual, but if you can distribute heat across a larger area, such as the headers, apply insulation to the inside of panels, which again helps reduce direct heat and distribute heat across a larger area, then add some air movement, however minimal, maybe, just maybe there may be some successful reduction in perceived heat.

Since my wife perceives less heat and so do I, and the fact that there has been some increase in performance, and mileage, I would call that a success. I suppose that makes me a genius as you so well put it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
:thumbup::thumbup::shemademe_smilie:

[Buttsy]

You mean I am not the only one?...........71840

[MidLifeCrisis]

You mean I am not the only one?...........71840

Sorry bud, the title is mine. :roflblack:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[NancysToy]

I have failed to make even you understand the distinct and vital difference between thermal radiation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation) and convection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convective_heat_transfer), and that convection not radiation is the real culprit and danger here and cannot be so easily stopped. Didn't anyone here take high school physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer)? Does anyone understand what convection is and how it works? The brake reservoir is sitting in a convection oven not a microwave or infrared oven. All that wrap and those shiny, thin shields will never stop or divert convection or conduction. Just because something looks as if it should work does not mean it will work. If I can't make someone as intelligent as you understand and back me up on this when lives may be at stake, I may as well give up. :banghead: Good Lord. By all means carry on with your "solutions" folks, you all seem to know more than me. If anyone dies, so be it.

I can only imagine several hundred years ago how difficult it must have been to try to make even intelligent people understand the world was round when everyone could very well see and knew damn well it was most certainly flat.

Ride safely everyone and the best of luck to you.
I fully understand the difference between radiation and convection. Both are involved here, and affect the rider and components differently. Changing how the heat is radiated will change the convection patterns, and changing the convection will also affect where and how some of the heat is radiated. They are inseperable in many ways.

You are blind to the fact that there can be acceptable results from halfway measures...even if the results are not perfect. You are screaming bloody murder about this, even though you don't have a 2013 and are not affected. It's time to lighten up with the insults and the condescending attitude. You have said your piece. Now let the affected owners look at the possible temporary solutions...and the pitfalls, and make the decisions for themselves. Nothing mentioned here can possibly make the situation worse, so they have nothing to lose but their time and money should they choose to continue to ride their 2013's.

This discussion has gone on long enough. Time to close the thread if it is going to get nasty.

[pro10is]

I fully understand the difference between radiation and convection. Both are involved here, and affect the rider and components differently. Changing how the heat is radiated will change the convection patterns, and changing the convection will also affect where and how some of the heat is radiated. They are inseperable in many ways.

You are blind to the fact that there can be acceptable results from halfway measures...even if the results are not perfect. You are screaming bloody murder about this, even though you don't have a 2013 and are not affected. It's time to lighten up with the insults and the condescending attitude. You have said your piece. Now let the affected owners look at the possible temporary solutions...and the pitfalls, and make the decisions for themselves. Nothing mentioned here can possibly make the situation worse, so they have nothing to lose but their time and money should they choose to continue to ride their 2013's.

This discussion has gone on long enough. Time to close the thread if it is going to get nasty.
Convection will continue to cause problems with the radiation blocked and no one's yet proposed any solution for convection, so no one has a solution. Period. Partial, unproven solutions are unacceptable when it comes to the possibility of losing all braking, especially when someone is proposing a potentially flawed solution to someone else who may believe they can continue to ride safely if they install it. Why can't anyone understand that and how can anyone possibly disagree when someone safety is at stake??? How would you feel about such advice after something happened? Someone needs to scream bloody murder when people are callously proposing such solutions to others who may innocently and naively believe them, because they do indeed have something to lose other than their time and money, their life. Play around all you want with your own bike but when it comes to a problem as serious as this, no one should be posting anything that could endanger anyone else's safety. That's my humble opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I tried to speak softly until I was mocked and insulted for my trouble so if I unintentionally offended anyone afterwards while trying to make people understand, well sorry, but someone had to talk straight. Everything I said needed to be said. I'm not interested in forum politics or popularity so I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me. I did my best to get my message across and if I potentially saved even one life because someone listened, it was well worth enduring the criticism.

Now that I have indeed said my piece and everyone has heard that they cannot ride safely without a proven solution, they are most certainly free to make any decision for themselves because now they have the facts.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Pro10,

This is obviously a forum for all to share their experiences and opinions. We're all adults and can decide for ourselves what to make of each argument. It really isn't about you trying to save lives, but rather to be right. I've watched many of your posts and regardless of the subject, be it Internet Explorer, heat wrapping, or whatever the topic of the day, you're right and everyone else is wrong. That just may be what rubs people here the wrong way.

I work in an engineering world. Too often the "big shots" say no way, can't be done, it's a total failure and will insist on their way, delaying projects and blowing smoke screens when an unsuspecting n00bie walks in and solves the problem. You have to go outside of what the book says sometimes to find solutions.

Everyone can test the results of their mods for themselves. We all know the risks.

[pro10is]

Pro10,

This is obviously a forum for all to share their experiences and opinions. We're all adults and can decide for ourselves what to make of each argument. It really isn't about you trying to save lives, but rather to be right. I've watched many of your posts and regardless of the subject, be it Internet Explorer, heat wrapping, or whatever the topic of the day, you're right and everyone else is wrong. That just may be what rubs people here the wrong way.

I work in an engineering world. Too often the "big shots" say no way, can't be done, it's a total failure and will insist on their way, delaying projects and blowing smoke screens when an unsuspecting n00bie walks in and solves the problem. You have to go outside of what the book says sometimes to find solutions.

Everyone can test the results of their mods for themselves. We all know the risks.
You're right, now everyone does know all the risks, but before I posted it was obvious that many did not.

We all believe we're right when we post our opinions aren't we. I'm no different, but I am outspoken and may indeed vehemently debate my point more than others when I know I'm right and I will not back down. If that rubs you or anyone else the wrong way then I'm sorry, but you can just skip over my posts if you like and simply ignore them, no one's forcing you to read them. I most certainly do not always believe everyone else is wrong, that's an inaccurate generalization on your part, and if you do read my posts you'll see I often support people whom I agree with even in debates. I am fair and honest but I do not suffer fools gladly so you better know your stuff backwards and forwards if you go up against me.

I have only about 900 posts here unlike the many thousands others have because I pick my topics very carefully and only post when I have something valuable to offer. If I post an opinion and someone disagrees with me I will continue to post until the discussion resolves itself. I will not back down when challenged, intimidated, or insulted. That's just the way I am and I make no apologies for that. I'm not asking anyone to like me but if you listen to what I say you may learn something valuable because I have much to offer from a lifetime of experience in high tech engineering.

This topic caught my attention because it seemed to me people were totally ignoring the very serious safety issue and I could clearly see some being persuaded that they could still ride safely with unproven mods. I strongly disagree and made my point known even though I knew it would be unpopular to try to tell anyone their mods were potentially flawed. As expected I was challenged but as I said I will not back down when I know I'm right. If I'm challenged I will respond, if not I'll stop, it's as simple as that. So if anyone wants me to shut up then simply don't debate me. I don't wish to get into an uncomfortable discussion with anyone. Lamont and Scotty are two of my most favorite and respected people here so believe me when I tell you it was very painful to have to respectfully disagree with them on this. Despite what you may believe I do in fact care deeply about people's safety. If you truly knew me in person you would discover that I am actually considered to be a really nice guy and the vast majority of people who know me genuinely like me. I'm sorry I can't convey that here but that's because you only see one side of my personality.

You mocked me in your post so I responded in kind but I genuinely hope you have or will find a full or partial solution to the burning legs problem and I was only half kidding when I said we would all be grateful to you if you did, I know I would be. But my debate was specifically about the serious brake issue and on that I'll give no ground, only a proven solution is acceptable when the potential of serious injury or death is possible. You are indeed all adults and like I said before, you now do have all the required facts thanks to the debate. So by all means make your own decision.

[Saluda]

shouldn't we remember that BRP is the cause ? It seems that all these posts are because people care.

[Bob Denman]

HEY EVERYBODY!!
Pro knows his stuff about this.
Let's cut him some slack for that... :thumbup:
We don't have to agree with his assessment, but he's got the chops to be in this discussion... :2thumbs:

Now for my ccmpletely inexpert, dummy-on-the-street, seat of the pants, real World, OPINION :opps::
If the rider and passenger are feeling less heat from these measures; it'll work until BRP can come up with a better option... (JMHO)
Now... ream me out, and give the guy some breathing room... ;)

We sure don't need this turning into a knife fight in here... :shocked:

[Saluda]

I'm not an engineer and this field is definately not job related to me but I'll make one comment. If someone is not feeling heat that they used to I would say the modification is working unless that heat was routed to another area where it could cause a problem or concern.
Hurry up BRP !

[MidLifeCrisis]

We all believe we're right when we post our opinions aren't we. Other than complements, greeting, welcomes, etc., I’m pretty slow to post and mostly ask questions. UNLESS, my experience, in this case huge improvement in heat tells me something different than a book. I'm no different, but I am outspoken and may indeed vehemently debate my point more than others when I know I'm right and I will not back down. If that rubs you or anyone else the wrong way then I'm sorry, Spoken like a true and honest control freak……… you'll see I often support people whom I agree with even in debates. Why is that such a challenge? I am fair and honest but I do not suffer fools gladly so you better know your stuff backwards and forwards if you go up against me. No problem, but doubt it'll make a difference.

I have only about 900 posts here unlike the many thousands others have because I pick my topics very carefully and only post when I have something valuable to offer. If I post an opinion and someone disagrees with me I will continue to post until the discussion resolves itself. Or people quite, because they are tired of the ranting. I will not back down when challenged, intimidated, or insulted. I’m far from intimidating and insulting. Like you, I pointed out the truth. Seems you were getting defensive, so I was pointing out why you may be feeling the rejection. Content matters, so does tact. Books matter, so do experiences. That's just the way I am and I make no apologies for that. I'm not asking anyone to like me but if you listen to what I say you may learn something valuable because I have much to offer from a lifetime of experience in high tech engineering.

This topic caught my attention because it seemed to me people were totally ignoring the very serious safety issue and I could clearly see some being persuaded that they could still ride safely with unproven mods. Any improvement, is improvement. A combination of small improvements usually lead to bigger improvements. I strongly disagree and made my point known even though I knew it would be unpopular to try to tell anyone their mods were potentially flawed. None were claiming a bulls eye, just improvements. As expected I was challenged but as I said I will not back down when I know I'm right. I work and live with people who KNOW they are right every day, so it’s easy for me to pick out a control freak. If I'm challenged I will respond, if not I'll stop, it's as simple as that. I’ll stop. It just isn’t worth battling people who know they are right. The lack of humility in your responses is uncanny. So if anyone wants me to shut up then simply don't debate me. That’s what control freaks really want. Everyone else to shut up. Just sayin’ I don't wish to get into an uncomfortable discussion with anyone. Lamont and Scotty are two of my most favorite and respected people here so believe me when I tell you it was very painful to have to respectfully disagree with them on this. Despite what you may believe I do in fact care deeply about people's safety. If you truly knew me in person you would discover that I am actually considered to be a really nice guy and the vast majority of people who know me genuinely like me. I'm sorry I can't convey that here but that's because you only see one side of my personality. Perhaps that’s a limitation of the Internet and piping it down a bit goes a long way.

You mocked me in your post so I responded in kind but I genuinely hope you have or will find a full or partial solution to the burning legs problem and I was only half kidding when I said we would all be grateful to you if you did, I know I would be. I believe the first mocking was hurled by you. I posted my results, and you said I must be a genius and what a guy. But my debate was specifically about the serious brake issue and on that I'll give no ground, only a proven solution is acceptable when the potential of serious injury or death is possible. Agreed whole heartedly and until a full blown solution is provided, every little bit helps. Keep in mind BRP claimed they fixed the heat issue on 2013s. Nothing was said about the previous years and nothing has been offered. If I was to apply your solution to my Spyder, then It would still be sitting in my garage with 300 miles on it (when I discovered things got hot….real hot) You are indeed all adults and like I said before, you now do have all the required facts thanks to the debate. So by all means make your own decision.Doesn’t sound like we’re allowed to!
..


I'm not an engineer and this field is definately not job related to me but I'll make one comment. If someone is not feeling heat that they used to I would say the modification is working unless that heat was routed to another area where it could cause a problem or concern.
Hurry up BRP !Apparently it’s all in our heads…or butts…or whatever, because the book says it aint so!

[flamingobabe]

Let me say that I have not asked anyone to do anything to their bike...what I have posted is what I have experienced with my bike....and wanted to know if others were having the same problems......the work done on my bike is with and through BRP and the dealer, PitBull.....we have done a flash on the ECM and wrapped the pipes and a new heat shield....I am in the process of measuring the results and will go back to dealer...take the bike apart and look at everything...and from that we should start to have proven results... .what more can BRP and dealer and myself do....someone has to be a test dummy

[pro10is]

HEY EVERYBODY!!
Pro knows his stuff about this.
Let's cut him some slack for that... :thumbup:
We don't have to agree with his assessment, but he's got the chops to be in this discussion... :2thumbs:

Now for my ccmpletely inexpert, dummy-on-the-street, seat of the pants, real World, OPINION :opps::
If the rider and passenger are feeling less heat from these measures; it'll work until BRP can come up with a better option... (JMHO)
Now... ream me out, and give the guy some breathing room... ;)

We sure don't need this turning into a knife fight in here... :shocked:
Thank you Bob, you are a wise and kind gentleman and I will always consider you a friend.

[pro10is]

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by pro10is http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=657289#post657289)
We all believe we're right when we post our opinions aren't we. Other than complements, greeting, welcomes, etc., I’m pretty slow to post and mostly ask questions. UNLESS, my experience, in this case huge improvement in heat tells me something different than a book. I'm no different, but I am outspoken and may indeed vehemently debate my point more than others when I know I'm right and I will not back down. If that rubs you or anyone else the wrong way then I'm sorry, Spoken like a true and honest control freak……… you'll see I often support people whom I agree with even in debates. Why is that such a challenge? I am fair and honest but I do not suffer fools gladly so you better know your stuff backwards and forwards if you go up against me. No problem, but doubt it'll make a difference.

I have only about 900 posts here unlike the many thousands others have because I pick my topics very carefully and only post when I have something valuable to offer. If I post an opinion and someone disagrees with me I will continue to post until the discussion resolves itself. Or people quite, because they are tired of the ranting. I will not back down when challenged, intimidated, or insulted. I’m far from intimidating and insulting. Like you, I pointed out the truth. Seems you were getting defensive, so I was pointing out why you may be feeling the rejection. Content matters, so does tact. Books matter, so do experiences. That's just the way I am and I make no apologies for that. I'm not asking anyone to like me but if you listen to what I say you may learn something valuable because I have much to offer from a lifetime of experience in high tech engineering.

This topic caught my attention because it seemed to me people were totally ignoring the very serious safety issue and I could clearly see some being persuaded that they could still ride safely with unproven mods. Any improvement, is improvement. A combination of small improvements usually lead to bigger improvements. I strongly disagree and made my point known even though I knew it would be unpopular to try to tell anyone their mods were potentially flawed. None were claiming a bulls eye, just improvements. As expected I was challenged but as I said I will not back down when I know I'm right. I work and live with people who KNOW they are right every day, so it’s easy for me to pick out a control freak. If I'm challenged I will respond, if not I'll stop, it's as simple as that. I’ll stop. It just isn’t worth battling people who know they are right. The lack of humility in your responses is uncanny. So if anyone wants me to shut up then simply don't debate me. That’s what control freaks really want. Everyone else to shut up. Just sayin’ I don't wish to get into an uncomfortable discussion with anyone. Lamont and Scotty are two of my most favorite and respected people here so believe me when I tell you it was very painful to have to respectfully disagree with them on this. Despite what you may believe I do in fact care deeply about people's safety. If you truly knew me in person you would discover that I am actually considered to be a really nice guy and the vast majority of people who know me genuinely like me. I'm sorry I can't convey that here but that's because you only see one side of my personality. Perhaps that’s a limitation of the Internet and piping it down a bit goes a long way.



You mocked me in your post so I responded in kind but I genuinely hope you have or will find a full or partial solution to the burning legs problem and I was only half kidding when I said we would all be grateful to you if you did, I know I would be. I believe the first mocking was hurled by you. I posted my results, and you said I must be a genius and what a guy. But my debate was specifically about the serious brake issue and on that I'll give no ground, only a proven solution is acceptable when the potential of serious injury or death is possible. Agreed whole heartedly and until a full blown solution is provided, every little bit helps. Keep in mind BRP claimed they fixed the heat issue on 2013s. Nothing was said about the previous years and nothing has been offered. If I was to apply your solution to my Spyder, then It would still be sitting in my garage with 300 miles on it (when I discovered things got hot….real hot) You are indeed all adults and like I said before, you now do have all the required facts thanks to the debate. So by all means make your own decision.Doesn’t sound like we’re allowed to!
You, sir, are now way out of line and no longer deserving of a meaningful debate.

[Jeriatric]

And this is a good place to.....

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4853361338287244&pid=15.1

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4737427310840561&pid=15.1

:doorag:

[MidLifeCrisis]

You, sir, are now way out of line and no longer deserving of a meaningful debate.

Thank God:bowdown:

[54spyder]

Many forums I belong to have the ability for a moderator to lock a thread that gets out of hand. Is that a possibility here?