Swerving.. Spyder or human error?

[dadunston]

Hi community,

I purchased my STS 2013 in April, has about 2800 miles on it. Just now found time to ask a few questions

During my 600 mile maintenance I received new ball joints. At first I thought it was the roads that I was driving on, but I'm not sure so I'm looking for any thoughts from other spyder lovers!

When driving at speeds above 50MPG it feels like the steering wheel or front end is extremely sensitive which feels like I'm swerving from left to right and can't seem to keep a straight line. Also, when braking hard
(almost reaching ABS lockup), its very easy to go left or right and not stay straight.

Is it just me or could something be out of whack with my machine? Any help is greatly appreciated as always!

[NancysToy]

Go back to the dealer and have him align the front end, too, using the procedures and tools developed for the 2013 model. Too little toe-in will make the Spyder real skittish. Also check your front tire pressure. Too much or too little can do the same thing. I'd recommend starting around 18 psi annd experimenting between 15-20 up front. Human error can be entering into the equation, too. Be sure and hold the handlebars loosely, don't overcontrol, and remember not to countersteer.

[SpyderAnn01]

Also have them check the front shocks there were some bad ones on some 2013

[Chupaca]

Have them check it out completely. Especially the alignment and ties pressure...!! :thumbup:

[Bob Denman]

"It's a poor mechanic who always blames his tools..."
No doubt; have them check the alignment, and play around a bit with the front tire pressures... :thumbup:
But don't forget what else Scotty said, " Be sure and hold the handlebars loosely, don't overcontrol,"
I'm not saying that it's your fault; I'm just saying that it might not be all the machine's fault... ;)

[dadunston]

Have them check it out completely. Especially the alignment and ties pressure...!! :thumbup:

Tire pressure is good both fronts are at 18 with 28 on back.

I spoke to the dealership, they said that the 2013 models do not undergo alignment as the front end was redesigned to help with the handling and that they don't have anything to align them with equipment wise. Dealership is Fredericksburg Motor sports (http://www.fmscycles.com/index.htm)

They said Spyders have a bad tendency to feel "floaty" and I'm not use to it yet. I've put 3000+ miles on my ST since April and feel pretty comfortable. The feeling change was noticed after the ball joint replacement they did for me.

Have I been mislead and any other thoughts?

[Bob Denman]

I spoke to the dealership, they said that the 2013 models do not undergo alignment as the front end was redesigned to help with the handling and that they don't have anything to align them with equipment wise. Dealership is Fredericksburg Motor sports (http://www.fmscycles.com/index.htm)

:shocked: :hun: Did you buy that? :yikes:

Don't!

[dadunston]

:shocked: :hun: Did you buy that? :yikes:

Don't!


I did lol! I'm calling BRP to get something in an email to show the dealership, I'm starting to feel unsafe on this thing and the dealership is actually refusing to take my money because they said its not possible. A dealership refusing money, OMFG.

[reverendg]

Yeah right.....a suspension like the spyders, and no adjustment? I guess all those screw in links and rod ends and ball joints just get screwed in until they "feel right", the suspension is designed to work around it? Not a chance.

[NancysToy]

Tire pressure is good both fronts are at 18 with 28 on back.

I spoke to the dealership, they said that the 2013 models do not undergo alignment as the front end was redesigned to help with the handling and that they don't have anything to align them with equipment wise. Dealership is Fredericksburg Motor sports (http://www.fmscycles.com/index.htm)

They said Spyders have a bad tendency to feel "floaty" and I'm not use to it yet. I've put 3000+ miles on my ST since April and feel pretty comfortable. The feeling change was noticed after the ball joint replacement they did for me.

Have I been mislead and any other thoughts?

I'd sure try to find another dealer. Not only can they be aligned, there is a new procedure, new specs, new tools, and a Knowledge Base article outling the procedure. Have them contact BRP dealer tech support for advice.

[dadunston]

I'd sure try to find another dealer. Not only can they be aligned, there is a new procedure, new specs, new tools, and a Knowledge Base article outling the procedure. Have them contact BRP dealer tech support for advice.

Do you happen to have a knowledge base article link and the procedure name so I can go harder with my facts?

I called 3 dealers and they are all saying the same thing about there not being a need to align them because they only have "toe", I'm not car part savy.

[dadunston]

Do you happen to have a knowledge base article link and the procedure name so I can go harder with my facts?

I called 3 dealers and they are all saying the same thing about there not being a need to align them because they only have "toe", I'm not car part savy.

I've also found this link:

http://spydertechnician.blogspot.com/2013/03/new-2013-can-am-spyder-roadster-wheel.html

[NancysToy]

Do you happen to have a knowledge base article link and the procedure name so I can go harder with my facts?

I called 3 dealers and they are all saying the same thing about there not being a need to align them because they only have "toe", I'm not car part savy.

They do only have toe-in alignment, but that is what tends to make them wander. It is still alignment. Lazy, uninformed dealers give me a rash! Sorry, I don't have access to the Knowledge Base article. The draft KB article or Service Bulletin was posted here when all the 2013s were having wandering problems at first blush. BTW, 18 is a little high up front for the 2013's. Try 15-16 and see if it is better. Remember, tire pressures are supposed to be measured cold.

[dadunston]

They do only have toe-in alignment, but that is what tends to make them wander. It is still alignment. Lazy, uninformed dealers give me a rash! Sorry, I don't have access to the Knowledge Base article. The draft KB article or Service Bulletin was posted here when all the 2013s were having wandering problems at first blush. BTW, 18 is a little high up front for the 2013's. Try 15-16 and see if it is better. Remember, tire pressures arte supposed to be measured cold.

I've got a lot to learn! thanks for the support and prompt replies! (highfive)

[SpyderAnn01]

They do only have toe-in alignment, but that is what tends to make them wander. It is still alignment. Lazy, uninformed dealers give me a rash! Sorry, I don't have access to the Knowledge Base article. The draft KB article or Service Bulletin was posted here when all the 2013s were having wandering problems at first blush. BTW, 18 is a little high up front for the 2013's. Try 15-16 and see if it is better. Remember, tire pressures are supposed to be measured cold.

Scotty, just curious why you think 18 is too high on the 2013? Mine was delivered with 21 in the front and I did drop it down to 18 but I thought 15 - 16 was too low

[ARtraveler]

Sorry to hear of your issues with the :spyder2:. Lazy or incompetent dealer(s) seem to be at the root of the issue here. Please keep us informed as you work on getting your problem(s) solved

[Bob Denman]

Scotty, just curious why you think 18 is too high on the 2013? Mine was delivered with 21 in the front and I did drop it down to 18 but I thought 15 - 16 was too low
Everybody has their own personal "Comfort Level" for suspension settings... BRP seems to universally suggest tire pressure settings that are quite low; perhaps to give a nice, cushy ride. ;)
What they don't seem to have realized yet; is that some of us are enthusiasts... :thumbup: We'll gladly sacrifice some ride comfort for better handling! :2thumbs:

[NancysToy]

Scotty, just curious why you think 18 is too high on the 2013? Mine was delivered with 21 in the front and I did drop it down to 18 but I thought 15 - 16 was too low

The new, lower profile tires seem to like a little less pressure than the earlier models did. The new ones are a little more "squirmy" at the higher pressures, from what I have heard...and the increase above the OEM recommended pressure is no longer needed to counteract the tire portion of the body roll with the more rigid tires.

[BajaRon]

Why is it that dealerships today have such a long list of 'Can'ts'?

If the front end can't be aligned, then why are there adjustments on the tie rods?

Why is there a detailed procedure for proper alignment from BRP?

Amazing! But the fact remains that if the customer doesn't know more than the dealer you could be in big trouble.

[Jharpo]

Why is it that dealerships today have such a long list of 'Can'ts'?

If the front end can't be aligned, then why are there adjustments on the tie rods?

Why is there a detailed procedure for proper alignment from BRP?

Amazing! But the fact remains that if the customer doesn't know more than the dealer you could be in big trouble.

And if it wasn't for guys like you and Scotty, I would still be sitting here saying "Duh". I just wanted to thank all you guys for stepping up to the plate with answers so we can go to our dealers a lot more informed.

[Spydr in KS]

The new, lower profile tires seem to like a little less pressure than the earlier models did. The new ones are a little more "squirmy" at the higher pressures, from what I have heard...and the increase above the OEM recommended pressure is no longer needed to counteract the tire portion of the body roll with the more rigid tires.


:2thumbs: I ran 18 psi front on my 2008. My STS was delivered with 13 psi. I pumped it up to 18 and didn't like the ride or handling. I settled on 16 as good for me. I doubt tire pressure is the OP's problem, but I'd try 15-16 psi and see if you like it better,

[HuckFin]

Scotty, just curious why you think 18 is too high on the 2013? Mine was delivered with 21 in the front and I did drop it down to 18 but I thought 15 - 16 was too low

So far, I've been running 14 on the front and 24 on the back on my 2013 RS-S and love the way it handles.

[SpyderAnn01]

I will say that when I dropped my front tire pressure from 21 to 18 it did help the handling.

[Bob Denman]

And if it wasn't for guys like you and Scotty, I would still be sitting here saying "Duh". I just wanted to thank all you guys for stepping up to the plate with answers so we can go to our dealers a lot more informed.

:agree: :clap: :bowdown: :firstplace:

[Ga Blue Knight]

Why is it that dealerships today have such a long list of 'Can'ts'?

If the front end can't be aligned, then why are there adjustments on the tie rods?

Why is there a detailed procedure for proper alignment from BRP?

Amazing! But the fact remains that if the customer doesn't know more than the dealer you could be in big trouble.

Its really amazing that they would deny doing work for pay through lack of knowledge. This type of thinking is becoming more common with the smaller rural dealerships as their trained techs leave for better paying jobs. When the Spyder first came out the dealerships had to have a trained tech. Now years later there either does not seem to be a requirement anymore or BRP is not checking. This is not a good direction to be heading in for a long term future for the Spyder. While I don't mind riding 110 miles for the next closest dealer I doubt many new riders will se that a ok.

[NancysToy]

So far, I've been running 14 on the front and 24 on the back on my 2013 RS-S and love the way it handles.

Be careful about running pressures below the minimum printed on the tire sidewall. Minimums are seldom stated, and when they do it is usually for safety reasons. The front tires on the Spyder have a marked minimum.

[Bob Ledford]

how could a person invest so much money into a dealer franchise such as BRP offers then hire personnel so dumb and technically illiterate ???

[Spydr in KS]

Be careful about running pressures below the minimum printed on the tire sidewall. Minimums are seldom stated, and when they do it is usually for safety reasons. The front tires on the Spyder have a marked minimum.

Itneresting, my 2013 front tire sidewall says 15 psi min. The BRP manual says 13 - 17 psi?

[NancysToy]

Itneresting, my 2013 front tire sidewall says 15 psi min. The BRP manual says 13 - 17 psi?

Yes, they have had that in the manual from the beginning. I don't recommend going below 15, however. The tire manufacturer knows better than some flunky writing a manual. Shall we talk about the Ford Explorer debacle?

[SpyderMouse22]

I am having some issues with my ST Limited feeling loose in the corners and at 60+ miles per hour. Taking the tire preasure down to 16.5 helped alot. I am going to take some air out of the back next. I can say when i took preasure up in the front it didnt help at all. I figured i would start with tire preasure before messing with shocks or sway bars first. I am going to do the laser alignment next.

[SpyderAnn01]

I'm getting my shocks replaced tomorrow. :yes:

[Ga Blue Knight]

how could a person invest so much money into a dealer franchise such as BRP offers then hire personnel so dumb and technically illiterate ???

Because they make a lot more $$$ off of four wheelers, watercraft and snowmobiles. Most dealers are not motorcycle Shops and put their resources where their main business is. Spyders are still a minority product in most areas and with most small dealers. My nearest dealer has at least twenty four wheelers and ten watercraft on the floor. He only has two Spyders, a 2012 RSS and a 2012 RT Limited with a trailer. I asked him about the 2013's and he said yeah I have a few in a crate in the wear house, waiting to sell the 2012's first. Unbelievable stupidly! By the way there are no discounts on the 2012's which are priced at full list! Don't know if it means anything but the manager is 26 years old in his first job as a manager and the store is very successful with their other products.

[reverendg]

Because they make a lot more $$$ off of four wheelers, watercraft and snowmobiles. Most dealers are not motorcycle Shops and put their resources where their main business is. Spyders are still a minority product in most areas and with most small dealers. My nearest dealer has at least twenty four wheelers and ten watercraft on the floor. He only has two Spyders, a 2012 RSS and a 2012 RT Limited with a trailer. I asked him about the 2013's and he said yeah I have a few in a crate in the wear house, waiting to sell the 2012's first. Unbelievable stupidly! By the way there are no discounts on the 2012's which are priced at full list! Don't know if it means anything but the manager is 26 years old in his first job as a manager and the store is very successful with their other products. That is scary!! Where I bought mine they have plenty of watercraft and four wheelers (they are a "marine" sales/service by name) but easily had 10 spyders on the floor, and sitting out on their lawn drawing attention. There were '12's and '13's available in all three styles and a few different colors. The spyders were the first thing you saw entering their sales floor. This could be why I am seeing them fairly often on the streets locally. Since I had only a training permit at the time, the salesgirl jumped on another spyder and escorted me home so as to keep everything legal. The teen looking salesgirl even knew the differences between the 12's and 13's, including the less noticeable stuff like brake and tire size improvements. They didn't gouge me on the 600 mile check-up either. Knowing that most of their product line is BRP products is also a good thing.

[Bob Denman]

I'm getting my shocks replaced tomorrow. :yes:

:2thumbs:

But replaced with what?? That's the question... ;)

[SpyderAnn01]

:2thumbs:

But replaced with what?? That's the question... ;)

With a different set, silly. Nothing more nothing less. Time will tell.

[dadunston]

hello all,

I thought I would provide an update on this situation. Finally found a dealership who would was knowledgeable and actually cared to listen to my problem.

After working with BRP this week, they believe its related to my shocks and a new set is on order. Once they are replaced, my hopes are that my issues will be resolved. I'll keep this thread updated on the progress.

I'm ready to finally drive without worrying if the wind blowing to hard or the wrong direction will jerk the steering left or right causing me to wreck.

[03hdjill]

hello all,

I thought I would provide an update on this situation. Finally found a dealership who would was knowledgeable and actually cared to listen to my problem.

After working with BRP this week, they believe its related to my shocks and a new set is on order. Once they are replaced, my hopes are that my issues will be resolved. I'll keep this thread updated on the progress.

I'm ready to finally drive without worrying if the wind blowing to hard or the wrong direction will jerk the steering left or right causing me to wreck.

I am curious as to what kind of shocks BRP is using to replace the stock shocks on the 2013 ST Limited. Does anyone know? I have approximately 2000 miles on my ST Limited that I have owned for approximately 2 months. Really, I am fine with everything about my Spyder. (other than my brake light sticks, and a reflector fell off my saddlebag) I don't know if it would be better to go in and ask that the shocks be replaced since they are saying that the Spyder will handle better, or leave well enough, alone. What do you think? Jill

[NancysToy]

I am curious as to what kind of shocks BRP is using to replace the stock shocks on the 2013 ST Limited. Does anyone know? I have approximately 2000 miles on my ST Limited that I have owned for approximately 2 months. Really, I am fine with everything about my Spyder. (other than my brake light sticks, and a reflector fell off my saddlebag) I don't know if it would be better to go in and ask that the shocks be replaced since they are saying that the Spyder will handle better, or leave well enough, alone. What do you think? Jill

If your Spyder already handles fine, the replacement shocks will do no good. The ones with faulty shocks don't handle well. You said you are fine with it, so I'd just ride the wheels off it! :D

[Shandycat]

I'm about due for my 600 mile service and after reading this thread I'm scared to death! What's a reasonable amount to pay for this service? Were any of you fed any lines of BS that I need to be aware of such as, "Your divariable veeblefritzer is already worn out. A replacement will cost $1000." Can you suggest any questions I might ask to subtly find out the knowledge level of the technicians so I can feel confident in their abilities (or run screaming from the building)?

I just HATE when those divariable veeblefritzers go bad before their time....

[Jharpo]

I'm getting my shocks replaced tomorrow. :yes:

Anne, the dealer replaced my shocks also. New ones are much beefier and bike even corners easier. No more loose and floppy.

[ARtraveler]

I'm about due for my 600 mile service and after reading this thread I'm scared to death! What's a reasonable amount to pay for this service? Were any of you fed any lines of BS that I need to be aware of such as, "Your divariable veeblefritzer is already worn out. A replacement will cost $1000." Can you suggest any questions I might ask to subtly find out the knowledge level of the technicians so I can feel confident in their abilities (or run screaming from the building)?

I just HATE when those divariable veeblefritzers go bad before their time....

A basic 600 mile service should include an oil change, filter, and a checkover to make sure that the :spyder2: is breaking in well. This service should cost about $250-$300. If you need to replace the divariable veeblefritzer, that should IMO be covered under warranty.

:roflblack:

[TexGEOas]

Tire pressure is good both fronts are at 18 with 28 on back.

I spoke to the dealership, they said that the 2013 models do not undergo alignment as the front end was redesigned to help with the handling and that they don't have anything to align them with equipment wise. Dealership is Fredericksburg Motor sports (http://www.fmscycles.com/index.htm)

They said Spyders have a bad tendency to feel "floaty" and I'm not use to it yet. I've put 3000+ miles on my ST since April and feel pretty comfortable. The feeling change was noticed after the ball joint replacement they did for me.

Have I been mislead and any other thoughts?

What you are experiencing may be the road conditions and the Spyder's three wheel design. All asphalt roads develop grooves where heavy four wheelers depress the tire area and leave a crest in the center. This could be only an 1/2" raised crest to 2 or 3 inches high. The Spyder's rear drive wheel generally rides on this crest and rolls off of it one way or the other during travel. This is what accounts for the pitching left and right. There is no cure for this... it is the road condition. You simply must get used to it and learn to ignore it. Took me a while... but I don't even think about it any more.

[Shandycat]

What you are experiencing may be the road conditions and the Spyder's three wheel design. All asphalt roads develop grooves where heavy four wheelers depress the tire area and leave a crest in the center. This could be only an 1/2" raised crest to 2 or 3 inches high. The Spyder's rear drive wheel generally rides on this crest and rolls off of it one way or the other during travel. This is what accounts for the pitching left and right. There is no cure for this... it is the road condition. You simply must get used to it and learn to ignore it. Took me a while... but I don't even think about it any more.

This is actually one of the things I like most about the Spyder (assuming that road conditions are, in fact, causing this effect). The sway at highway speeds feels like riding a horse to me. :D

[Bob Denman]

A basic 600 mile service should include an oil change, filter, and a checkover to make sure that the :spyder2: is breaking in well. This service should cost about $250-$300. If you need to replace the divariable veeblefritzer, that should IMO be covered under warranty.

:roflblack:

:agree: :roflblack:
:roflblack::roflblack:

[Jharpo]

This is actually one of the things I like most about the Spyder (assuming that road conditions are, in fact, causing this effect). The sway at highway speeds feels like riding a horse to me. :D

Or driving a 16' boat across swirling currents. It's fun!

[Bob Denman]

Or a high-powered snowmobile in deep powder! :2thumbs:

[napper39]

shadycat or what ever your handle is if it feels like you said tell them you want the new shocks,brp has told the dealers to put new shocks on if you think for safety you need them replaced no money out of you pocket.:thumbup::chat: then you can ride like the wind,and not on a sale boat:yikes:

[Bob Ledford]

Hi community,

I purchased my STS 2013 in April, has about 2800 miles on it. Just now found time to ask a few questions

During my 600 mile maintenance I received new ball joints. At first I thought it was the roads that I was driving on, but I'm not sure so I'm looking for any thoughts from other spyder lovers!

When driving at speeds above 50MPG it feels like the steering wheel or front end is extremely sensitive which feels like I'm swerving from left to right and can't seem to keep a straight line. Also, when braking hard
(almost reaching ABS lockup), its very easy to go left or right and not stay straight.

Is it just me or could something be out of whack with my machine? Any help is greatly appreciated

Reference stopping with ABS activated will allow you to drive around the obstacle avoiding it. ABS modulates or piles the braking system to prevent brake lock up on the wheel generating the most friction to prevent skidding. That is why they have it...

Like Scotty said in his post you need to go back and insist they dig out the 2013 special tool kit and read the instructions. Since it was a push package they may have not even unpacked it yet. Stranger things have happened in dealerships as I have witnessed them in person.

Once you get it realigned or rechecked and found to be in specifications. Take it and test drive it. It would be really cool if you and the manager or tech could double up for the test drive. Then once you have proven the steering problem fixed you can test for the remaining problems of weaving like a drunken tank driver.

Have fun but do not let them BS you on things you know are wrong. When in doubt come to SL.com and ask. Some one will have experienced it or something close to it. NancysToy, Scotty, and BaJaRon have a wleath of knowledge between them.

[Sny]

One question... do you notice the darty feel on really smooth roads?

There's an interesting discussion going on about how the new 2013's suspension design has a lot of bump steer like a race car. In racing it's dealt with differently. On a road going vehicle it can be scary.

Bump steer means when you hit a bump (even a tiny one) and the suspension deflects to absorb it, the geometry of the suspension changes and it can steer you one way or the other. Small bumps, small side to side movements. Very unsettling on a Spyder.

This makes perfect sense to me and fits with the descriptions I've heard about and experienced on my ST.

Follow the logic:
If you align it perfectly, the problem diminishes... this is how race techs deal with the problem on race cars... they also have higher quality tracks than most Interstates and roads... Less bump steer.

If you lower the tire pressure the problem diminishes... the tire is absorbing the shock instead of the suspension so it deflects less and less bump steer.

Just some thoughts.

[Shandycat]

shadycat or what ever your handle is if it feels like you said tell them you want the new shocks,brp has told the dealers to put new shocks on if you think for safety you need them replaced no money out of you pocket.:thumbup::chat: then you can ride like the wind,and not on a sale boat:yikes:

Really? Do they make that much of a difference? Just trying to figure out if it's worth replacing the shocks if it means not having the Spyder to ride for a few days. I find I go into withdrawal pretty quick.....

[YIRYDE]

hello all,

I thought I would provide an update on this situation. Finally found a dealership who would was knowledgeable and actually cared to listen to my problem.


Can you let me know which dealer you found to help you with your problem.
Thanks,

[dadunston]

Can you let me know which dealer you found to help you with your problem.
Thanks,

Virginia power motors sports in ruckersville va
They actually care to help with your issues verse Fredericksburg motorsports where they have horrible customer service.

[YIRYDE]

Virginia power motors sports in ruckersville va
They actually care to help with your issues verse Fredericksburg motorsports where they have horrible customer service.

There is another member who uses Virginia Power Motor Sports that likes them and echoed your comments. This is where I plan on taking my Spyder for all Service and Repairs. Coleman's is the closest dealer to me but I will not be using them for service any more.

Thanks