ST vs GS handling (help?)

[Sny]

So having the not so unique perspective of going from a GS to the ST, and riding both at the owners event, I've noticed some handling differences.

Let me start by saying I'm an aggressive technical rider. I see every road as a set of lines, angles and math.

Our GS is set up with 2011 RT shocks on 3 and BajaRon's RS swaybar. The tires are typically 20 front 30 rear. (I didn't check them before our playtime at the owners event...)

My ST is set up with the BRP RSS kit, which is fox shocks (set halfway) and the BRP upgraded "sport" swaybar. Fronts at 24, rear at 28. (still tweaking this... a lot.)

On the interstate, 75-85mph:
ST is stable. Goes straight with no hands on the bars but the rider feels unstable (subtle lateral movements). With hands on the bars this translates to the tiniest movements of the bars which in turn leads to more lateral movements. Need a super relaxed grip or those feelings of side to side motion turn into actual side to side motion.

GS is rock solid. Rider does not feel unstable. Gusts of wind or truck wash causes rider movement and unintended handlebar movement does not translate into more than a nudge. Does not continue into an oscillating motion. Relaxed grip keeps this to a minimum. Rides like it wants to go straight at interstate speeds.

On gentle curves, 45-65mph:
ST takes a moment to settle into a turn, often times with a bit of a bounce. Hard to find your line and hold it. Once it stabilizes it's good. Sudden movements have quick response but are not precise.

GS settles in instantly and smoothly. Can pick out any lane position and move to it in a snap with great precision. Can transition into a turn gently or suddenly with confidence.

On twisty mountain roads, 10-50mph: (referring to the real hairy ones like the Owners event provided us the opportunity to ride on)
ST dives in with reckless abandon. Can hold a line steady but hard to adjust it once into it. Nanny kicked in often just before the apex of hard corners while following the GS at similar entry speeds. Handlebars require SIGNIFICANT effort in these types of turns. I'd like to think I have some upper body strength and I felt like I was using most of it for many turns. ST did perform well here but...

GS effortlessly chews up these turns. Can go in hot, adjust speed or lane position with no issue at the same speeds the ST was at it's limits. Nanny fell into a coma from boredom. Handlebar effort was noticeable but not significant. Body roll much less than ST.

I'll post a video of the dragon from the ST watching the GS. It did really well other than the greatly increased effort.


So, How does everyone else have their ST set up, and what were the results?

I don't know how many others have the BRP/RSS kit (fox shocks, bar) on their ST, but I'm disillusioned by it.

Either that or it's something else.

The increased handlebar effort seems like the biggest clue. It could mean that the DPS isn't doing something right, or it could mean that the alignment needs a change. My dealer/mechanic seems to only be concerned with it going in a straight line, but I think a toe adjustment would be what I'm after to improve highway stability.

Fox shocks all the way up? all the way down? in the middle?

Or is the 2013 STS suspension just not really as good as a lightly modified 2009 GS suspension?

Thoughts? ideas? poetry?

[Chupaca]

never ridden an ST. Love the RS with the BajaRon bar tuned in front end (stock parts) handles much like your GS. Sure someone will come along with helpful information...:thumbup:

[mjw930]

My wife went from a GS/RS to the ST this spring and said it was like night and day with the ST being much better overall. The GS had an aftermarket sway bar and the stock shocks cranked up to 5 (she's only 100 lbs) and 4" Kewlmetal pull back bars. The ST-S is stock. We just got back from the owners event and she has nothing but praise for the ST-S though she did mention the nanny kicks in earlier which I attribute to the combination of E-throttle and revamped traction control.

To me it sounds like there are 3 things you need to consider, 2 are fixable, one isn't. You could have a combination of old ball joints and a bad alignment, those are the fixable things. But a lot of what you describe sounds like the leverage difference between the drag style RS handlebars and the risers on the ST. The change in leverage makes a big difference if you are used to the drag bars.

Regardless, almost all of your negative comments are the polar opposite of what my wife says about her ST-S so either there's a huge expectation gap or something isn't 100% on yours.

[Saluda]

Other than a few added options that have little to do with the ride or handling.

[daveinva]

I rode an ST-S at the Owner's Event demo and found it to be quite docile in the turns, it ran straight and true. If anything, I found it to be a bit "boring" compared to how my 2010 RS handles. Alas, the only thing I learned from my demo is that I need to test ride an ST on my own, outside of a demo "parade", and wring it out to see how it REALLY handles.

Note my RS has an aftermarket bar and Fox shocks, with all shocks set to max for this trip.

[asp125]

So.. does this just point out the ST is a softer version of the RS, meant to do less sport and more touring?

[Bob Denman]

Thanks for a clear and concise review! :thumbup: :clap:
But I've got nuthin' that'll help with the handling... :shocked:

[Questions]

I didn't think it was that big of a difference.I guess its a pretty big deal then.. explains a lot :p

[wyliec]

mjw930,

Aren't there 4 things to consider?

Does your wife have the same aggressive riding style as Sny? That may be hard to answer unless you two know each other. Based on what Sny has said, it appears he pushes his spyder's to the limit.

[The Wanderer]

I have an ST-L with the Fox shocks and sway bar. I rode the tail two up and had no issues with cornering. A couple of RS ryders stated they were impressed on how well the ST took the twisties with two people. Not sure what's going on with yours, but mine handled very well.:yes:

[Sny]

So.. does this just point out the ST is a softer version of the RS, meant to do less sport and more touring?
Oh, not at all. A Stock 2013 ST outcorners a Stock 2012 RS as well as a stock 2012 RSS (which is an RS with fox shocks).

The 2013 suspension, all three models, is a really trick design. The changes they made to all 2013's will give them a huge advantage over the stock models from previous years.

The pre 2013's can be modified to provide some great handling which would surpass the stock 2013's across the board.

My description above is with that in mind. I don't "hate" the ST handling at all. In fact, the lower speed corners, such as the Dragon, it is so flat that is looks completely unreal on camera. Your brain keeps trying to make the video lean, but it just doesn't... really impressive.

My problems are at the higher speeds and seem to me more perception. I can take my hands off the bars at 85 and it'll go straight for days, even past a truck and all it's wash. But it seems to only take the smallest movement to set a chain of oscillation into motion which gives an uneasy feeling.

I did 700 miles like this, and it wasn't terrible... but I was disappointed when I swapped with my wife and her beat up old 2009 was more forgiving on the Interstate.

I don't want anyone to read this and think "the ST's handle terrible".

I'll say it again, all the 2013's handle fantastic compared to stock pre-2013's. But it's going to take some experimentation and patience to get these new frames dialed in with the right performance handling modifications and settings to make them outhandle the previous generation with years of tuning experiences behind it.


Aren't there 4 things to consider?

Does your wife have the same aggressive riding style as Sny? That may be hard to answer unless you two know each other. Based on what Sny has said, it appears he pushes his spyder's to the limit.
My wife pushes hers more than I do. I've created a monster.

Riding position, style and what you desire from your ride all play a factor as well. As does the rider's physique, of which I have more than my fair share of :opps:

I don't claim to be a fantastic sport Spyder pilot... but I do like to push limits. :yikes:

I'd like to also point out that I lost my front brakes completely just before going up and down the Dragon. Master Cylinder blew up and spewed all my brake fluid everywhere.

Who needs brakes? :dontknow: My video came out a lot less exciting... didn't really get out of first.


http://youtu.be/zqk-Ao4Ah4g

BRP's taking care of me on that one (you better bet they will...)

[capt.jim]

So having the not so unique perspective of going from a GS to the ST, and riding both at the owners event, I've noticed some handling differences.

Let me start by saying I'm an aggressive technical rider. I see every road as a set of lines, angles and math.

Our GS is set up with 2011 RT shocks on 3 and BajaRon's RS swaybar. The tires are typically 20 front 30 rear. (I didn't check them before our playtime at the owners event...)

My ST is set up with the BRP RSS kit, which is fox shocks (set halfway) and the BRP upgraded "sport" swaybar. Fronts at 24, rear at 28. (still tweaking this... a lot.)

On the interstate, 75-85mph:
ST is stable. Goes straight with no hands on the bars but the rider feels unstable (subtle lateral movements). With hands on the bars this translates to the tiniest movements of the bars which in turn leads to more lateral movements. Need a super relaxed grip or those feelings of side to side motion turn into actual side to side motion.

GS is rock solid. Rider does not feel unstable. Gusts of wind or truck wash causes rider movement and unintended handlebar movement does not translate into more than a nudge. Does not continue into an oscillating motion. Relaxed grip keeps this to a minimum. Rides like it wants to go straight at interstate speeds.

On gentle curves, 45-65mph:
ST takes a moment to settle into a turn, often times with a bit of a bounce. Hard to find your line and hold it. Once it stabilizes it's good. Sudden movements have quick response but are not precise.

GS settles in instantly and smoothly. Can pick out any lane position and move to it in a snap with great precision. Can transition into a turn gently or suddenly with confidence.

On twisty mountain roads, 10-50mph: (referring to the real hairy ones like the Owners event provided us the opportunity to ride on)
ST dives in with reckless abandon. Can hold a line steady but hard to adjust it once into it. Nanny kicked in often just before the apex of hard corners while following the GS at similar entry speeds. Handlebars require SIGNIFICANT effort in these types of turns. I'd like to think I have some upper body strength and I felt like I was using most of it for many turns. ST did perform well here but...

GS effortlessly chews up these turns. Can go in hot, adjust speed or lane position with no issue at the same speeds the ST was at it's limits. Nanny fell into a coma from boredom. Handlebar effort was noticeable but not significant. Body roll much less than ST.

I'll post a video of the dragon from the ST watching the GS. It did really well other than the greatly increased effort.


So, How does everyone else have their ST set up, and what were the results?

I don't know how many others have the BRP/RSS kit (fox shocks, bar) on their ST, but I'm disillusioned by it.

Either that or it's something else.

The increased handlebar effort seems like the biggest clue. It could mean that the DPS isn't doing something right, or it could mean that the alignment needs a change. My dealer/mechanic seems to only be concerned with it going in a straight line, but I think a toe adjustment would be what I'm after to improve highway stability.

Fox shocks all the way up? all the way down? in the middle?

Or is the 2013 STS suspension just not really as good as a lightly modified 2009 GS suspension?

Thoughts? ideas? poetry?

I will agree with a lot of your handling comments, and the steering does take significantly more effort, and the nanny is much more sensitive.

I have an 08 GS with 3 Elka's and the Evo Bar and the ST with the RSS bar and the Fox shocks somewhere in the middle where they came set at.

I find the ST just doesn't feel as settled as my GS, somewhat sensitive and more flighty feeling but at the same time you can feel the weight difference. The ST does feel like a smoother ride on the highway

My GS feels more agile and connected and controllable, I do have 185-60 Michelin Pilot Exalta's, which made a big difference so it may not be a fair assessment.

As streamlined as the ST looks with the new headlights and bodywork, the airflow doesn't seem as smooth as on the GS, take those clear wind deflectors off and you'll notice they make a big difference in the handling on the highway, they are there for a purpose.

Mine also goes straight down the highway, but I wouldn't be surprised if the toe was a little off and may improve the overly sensitive feeling.

I also have 40,000+ miles on the GS and only 2500 on the ST, so I have had a long time to adapt to the handling on the GS.

I am happy with the handling of either, but I usually take the ST-SE when my wife goes and always take my GS-SM when alone due to the speed and handling, now if it only had the Brembo's ... they are great.

[Sarge707]

At my dealer yesterday and he admitted the ST suspension felt too soft for him stock. I was thinking about trading the RT for a ST BUT I would take a big Hit $$ wise and My 2012 RT is only 70 pounds heavier than an ST ,has the RonBar,Turns Great with some muscle and cruises with one hand next to or behind semi,s, heated Grips and lots of storage!~:ohyea: An ST might be a Big step backward for Me? :yikes:

[Sny]

I'm not convinced there's a "problem" with the ST. I'm just looking for other opinions and advice on how to improve it and change some of the perceptions I've had.

My next step is to adjust the toe in about 1/4" and see if that makes it feel better.

Then I'm going to play with tire pressures and front shock pre-load some more.

Everyone should try the ST before forming their own opinions.

I still believe it's savable!

[Sny]

My 2012 RT is only 70 pounds heavier than an ST ,has the RonBar,Turns Great with some muscle and cruises with one hand next to or behind semi,s, heated Grips and lots of storage!~:ohyea: An ST might be a Big step backward for Me? :yikes:
I wouldn't count Ron out of the ST bar business yet...

Not sure you'll notice the 65 lb weight difference.

Dry weight:
2012 RS 699 lbs
2012 RT 929 lbs
2013 RS 798 lbs
2013 ST 864 lbs
2013 RT 955 lbs

The 2013 ST has a much lower center of gravity than the 2012 RT. You'll definitely notice that.

The ST-L has bigger saddlebags than the RT, but the top box is really handy on the RT. Both come with heated grips, cruise control etc.

Try both :)

[NancysToy]

I'm not convinced there's a "problem" with the ST. I'm just looking for other opinions and advice on how to improve it and change some of the perceptions I've had.

My next step is to adjust the toe in about 1/4" and see if that makes it feel better.

Then I'm going to play with tire pressures and front shock pre-load some more.

Everyone should try the ST before forming their own opinions.

I still believe it's savable!

1/4" more is way too much! The best way would be to check it using the factory specified tools and procedure, including the shock replacement bars that set the ride height. If it tests within spec, I would not go further than 1/16" more. If it is out of spec, bring it to the tight side of the spec. I would not recommend adjusting it yourself. The steering can readily be made off center, so the factory tool is needed and careful adjustment as well, and the steering sensors must be zeroed with BUDS after adjustment.

[Sny]

I hear what you're saying Scotty...

I believe mine are dead set zero right now and the spec is close to zero on the 2013's... too many people complaining about tire wear.

The dealer will be doing the adjustment, hopefully they'll find it was out of spec and just put it where it belongs, or like you said, just a hair inside the limit.

One concern is that he has a very low opinion of the new alignment procedures and still wants to do things "his way". Now, his way seems similar, but unless I sat and watched him do it I couldn't tell ya if he's missing a few steps.

He gets one more chance at this... I'll prod him more about the new procedure and tools.

[NancysToy]

I hear what you're saying Scotty...

I believe mine are dead set zero right now and the spec is close to zero on the 2013's... too many people complaining about tire wear.

The dealer will be doing the adjustment, hopefully they'll find it was out of spec and just put it where it belongs, or like you said, just a hair inside the limit.

One concern is that he has a very low opinion of the new alignment procedures and still wants to do things "his way". Now, his way seems similar, but unless I sat and watched him do it I couldn't tell ya if he's missing a few steps.

He gets one more chance at this... I'll prod him more about the new procedure and tools.
According to BRP, the new procedure and tools are essential to achieving acceptable alignment on the 2013s. The methods are similar, but there are significant differences, and measurements taken by using the old system may be meaningless. Your dealer's reluctance to use the proper procedure may be the root of your problem.

[Sny]

According to BRP, the new procedure and tools are essential to achieving acceptable alignment on the 2013s. The methods are similar, but there are significant differences, and measurements taken by using the old system may be meaningless. Your dealer's reluctance to use the proper procedure may be the root of your problem.
Yep, I have considered that... but my tech is pretty darn good, so I'm going to trust him this time and see what happens.

"his way" is not a shortcut or derivative of the older methods. He's certified as a master spyder tech, so he knows the BRP approved methods. I'm going to see if he will describe what the differences are, I'm curious.

Anyhow, I have no doubt that if "his way" doesn't improve the problem, the owner will take care of things. It's... an interesting dealership ;)

This could get interesting.

[JacqueTanis]

Actually I think your video is very informative. I'm a new Spyder Ryder and am having a hard time with the curves. (ST Limited) but watching your wife's body movements really helped me out a lot. Thank you so very much!:D


Oh, not at all. A Stock 2013 ST outcorners a Stock 2012 RS as well as a stock 2012 RSS (which is an RS with fox shocks).

The 2013 suspension, all three models, is a really trick design. The changes they made to all 2013's will give them a huge advantage over the stock models from previous years.

The pre 2013's can be modified to provide some great handling which would surpass the stock 2013's across the board.

My description above is with that in mind. I don't "hate" the ST handling at all. In fact, the lower speed corners, such as the Dragon, it is so flat that is looks completely unreal on camera. Your brain keeps trying to make the video lean, but it just doesn't... really impressive.

My problems are at the higher speeds and seem to me more perception. I can take my hands off the bars at 85 and it'll go straight for days, even past a truck and all it's wash. But it seems to only take the smallest movement to set a chain of oscillation into motion which gives an uneasy feeling.

I did 700 miles like this, and it wasn't terrible... but I was disappointed when I swapped with my wife and her beat up old 2009 was more forgiving on the Interstate.

I don't want anyone to read this and think "the ST's handle terrible".

I'll say it again, all the 2013's handle fantastic compared to stock pre-2013's. But it's going to take some experimentation and patience to get these new frames dialed in with the right performance handling modifications and settings to make them outhandle the previous generation with years of tuning experiences behind it.


My wife pushes hers more than I do. I've created a monster.

Riding position, style and what you desire from your ride all play a factor as well. As does the rider's physique, of which I have more than my fair share of :opps:

I don't claim to be a fantastic sport Spyder pilot... but I do like to push limits. :yikes:

I'd like to also point out that I lost my front brakes completely just before going up and down the Dragon. Master Cylinder blew up and spewed all my brake fluid everywhere.

Who needs brakes? :dontknow: My video came out a lot less exciting... didn't really get out of first.


http://youtu.be/zqk-Ao4Ah4g

BRP's taking care of me on that one (you better bet they will...)

[Sarge707]

The "Sweet Thing " for All of us with the 2008-2012 GS/RS is that we All have the Vintage BRP Power to Weight ratio King and If its Yellow it appreciates even MORE!!:roflblack:
Try both :)[/QUOTE]


I wouldn't count Ron out of the ST bar business yet...

Not sure you'll notice the 65 lb weight difference.

Dry weight:
2012 RS 699 lbs
2012 RT 929 lbs
2013 RS 798 lbs
2013 ST 864 lbs
2013 RT 955 lbs

The 2013 ST has a much lower center of gravity than the 2012 RT. You'll definitely notice that.

The ST-L has bigger saddlebags than the RT, but the top box is really handy on the RT. Both come with heated grips, cruise control etc.

The "Sweet Thing " for All of us with the 2008-2012 GS/RS is that we All have the Vintage BRP Power to Weight ratio King and If its Yellow it appreciates even MORE!!:roflblack:
Try both :)

[spydyrydyn]

I have a stock ST-S and have found that when I brought the front tire pressure down to 16 it "felt" more stable in turns and also on the highway. The tires came from the dealer at 23 and I thought the handling felt too sensitive. The back tire is at 28.

I didn't think it would have much effect changing the press, but was pleasantly surprised that it did.

I'm pretty new to the Spyder and have no experience with the RS or GS.

Best,
Joe

[HuckFin]

I have a stock ST-S and have found that when I brought the front tire pressure down to 16 it "felt" more stable in turns and also on the highway. The tires came from the dealer at 23 and I thought the handling felt too sensitive. The back tire is at 28.

I didn't think it would have much effect changing the press, but was pleasantly surprised that it did.

I'm pretty new to the Spyder and have no experience with the RS or GS.

Best,
Joe

My 2013 RS-S came from the dealer with 14 lbs front and 24 lbs rear and handles so well, I'm afraid to put more air in....I will experiment with different air pressures as time goes on.