SE5 Transmission question

[03hdjill]

I have a 2013 ST Limited. I have been shifting based on recommended higher RPMs. ( I have also been downshifting).....I have always downshifted much more than using brakes a lot. My question is why does the semi automatic transmission downshift at such low RPMs if the Rotax engine likes the higher RPMs?

[Bob Denman]

BRP engineers must have figured that since there's no real load on the drivetrain while coasting down; it'd be okay to let the rpms drop to that level... :dontknow:

[NancysToy]

In my opinion the auto downshifting is just meant to be a backup. I think BRP fully intended for the Spyder to be electricall shifted by the rider, both up and down. If the rider fails to do so, however, the engine could stall if the rpm dropped too low, so there was a need for a backup. If they had wanted it to shift automatically, at the optimum shift points, they would have made it shift automatically in both directions. The ide of an electric shift is to make it easier to shift and to eliminate the clutch, not to provide a fully automatic transmission. JMHO

[Bob Denman]

Wasn't there a recent update to the shifting protocals?
If you get on the throttle when the rpms are too low; the bike will now downshift? :dontknow:

[kepople]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but:
I read the thread about shifting.
Just curious who is following the shifting at 5000rpm philosophy?

Also where are you down shifting?
I seem to downshift higher and use the engine to slow. Don't know if its hard on the tranny or not though...

[revjvegas]

Being a BMW F650 rider, I'm already conditioned to the Rotax's high RPM shift point so its never really been an issue for me.

And like NT said, I think the downshift is meant to be a backup. No reason not to continue to use good riding technique and use downshifting to help decelerate.

[Bob Denman]

Just curious who is following the shifting at 5000rpm philosophy?
The idea behind shifting at or above 5,000rpm is to keep your engine at or above 4,000 rpm; the point at which the clutches are fully engaged.
Putting a load on them below that rpm level might allow for slippage, overheating, and... :yikes:

[NancysToy]

The idea behind shifting at or above 5,000rpm is to keep your engine at or above 4,000 rpm; the point at which the clutches are fully engaged.
Putting a load on them below that rpm level might allow for slippage, overheating, and... :yikes:

This seems to be escalating. The clutch fully engages at 3,200 +/- 200. Allowing for about a 1,000 rpm drop between gears, that means up-shifting at 4,500 or above is adviseable. Similarly, downshifting by 3,500 or more will keep you in the powerband. I think we also have to stress that these are the minimums...more is perfectly acceptable.

[daveinva]

Very rarely will I let the Spyder downshift for me. Yeah, I know it *can*, but I like the control and safety of knowing which gear I'm in at any one time, and knowing that if for some reason I need to accelerate out of a jam ("Hey, look at that guy in my rear view mirror, he's not slowing down! :yikes:), I'm always in the gear that best allows me to roll on the throttle and scoot out of the way.

[Bob Denman]

I started with the 3500 rpm guideline...
Then I spent some time speaking with BRP reps; they said to use 4,000 rpm. :shocked:
:dontknow: So in order to be safe... :dontknow: 4,000 rpm it is!

[my3gs]

I have always shifted at 5300-5600 in about every gear. We ride at 5000 most all the time. It shifts good an u always have good responce at this rpm.

[Cruzr Joe]

This seems to be escalating. The clutch fully engages at 3,200 +/- 200. Allowing for about a 1,000 rpm drop between gears, that means up-shifting at 4,500 or above is adviseable. Similarly, downshifting by 3,500 or more will keep you in the powerband. I think we also have to stress that these are the minimums...more is perfectly acceptable.


Thanks for the clarification on the 3200 +/- 200 it seems that this number gets escalated at times and i was afraid it might reach 6800 +/- 5000 very soon. :thumbup:

Cruzr joe

[Jeriatric]

To my thinking (and I did not start off this way - it's learned). The auto downshift is a 'fail safe' and does not keep you at an optimal RPM. It simply keeps the clutch in the lower end of it's designed operating RPM.

ROTAX RPM's and the SE5 transmission

Consider the recommended valve check 'language'.

14,000 mile valve check - more often if RPM's are above 6K 10% of the time.

That's 1,400 miles above 6K in 14,000 miles - Possible by some, not likely by most.

The ROTAX engine likes to spin.

Keep it serviced and it'll keep you happy.

I downshift at 4K and stay at or above 5200 when maintaining a given speed. (closer to 6K when climbing)

Listen to an feel the ROTAX. It will tell you when it is 'happy'.

tol

[Bob Denman]

Mine seems happy enough in the 4,000 to 5,000 rpm range that I'm not going to upset the applecart with any more changes...

[Jeriatric]

I started with the 3500 rpm guideline...
Then I spent some time speaking with BRP reps; they said to use 4,000 rpm. :shocked:
:dontknow: So in order to be safe... :dontknow: 4,000 rpm it is!

Very close to the number BRP's tech's recommended when I asked in Durango. (3750 was their number - to keep it simple I made it 4K - call it insurance)

That information met a lot of resistance when passed along here tho - oh well. 2 each his own.

:thumbup:

[Green RSS]

I try to shift up at 4500 RPM. I also downshift to try and keep the engine above 3000 - 3500 RPM when stopping.

[Jeriatric]

I try to shift up at 4500 RPM. I also downshift to try and keep the engine above 3000 - 3500 RPM when stopping.

If you have an SE5 you need to raise the shift points. Doing what you're doing now is to low in the RPM band and it will end up costing you big time. fwiw

[Bob Denman]

Very close to the number BRP's tech's recommended when I asked in Durango. (3750 was their number - to keep it simple I made it 4K - call it insurance)

That information met a lot of resistance when passed along here tho - oh well. 2 each his own.

:thumbup:

I was one of those that resisted loud and long... :opps:

Now I'm a believer! :thumbup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuBREMXxts

[MidLifeCrisis]

I try to shift up at 4500 RPM. I also downshift to try and keep the engine above 3000 - 3500 RPM when stopping.

My RT won't run at that range. It really struggles. HP, torque and weight is definitely different on the RS, but I'm with Jer, keeping that range up will likely cost you big $$$.


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[mclaw44]

I'm just a little confuesed here. I know I'm not shifting at the right points or even close with my new RT-L so the shift point should be:

UP at 4000 RPM
and down WHEN? 3500

Sorry the stupid stupid side of my brain has checked in today and needs help! THANKS

[Bob Denman]

I try to shift up at 4500 RPM. I also downshift to try and keep the engine above 3000 - 3500 RPM when stopping.

My RT won't run at that range. It really struggles. HP, torque and weight is definitely different on the RS, but I'm with Jer, keeping that range up will likely cost you big $$$.


The RTs will run down there with a light load and a sensitive right wrist... ;)

[MidLifeCrisis]

The RTs will run down there with a light load and a sensitive right wrist... ;)

It may be the difference between SE and SM, since the SE will allow for some "slip" for the lack of a better word. Rotax is so happy at higher RPMs, so I just keep it there. It gets decent mileage and runs cooler too. I've climbed tons of hills 2 up in 4th with the RPMs high and passing semi after semi, thinking my gas mileage will be horrid, just to find out I got 31. It's really hard to accept the Rotax need for RPMs, but they love it and perform really well at higher range.


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[kepople]

Soooo, in summary: (SE5 only here)
1) Upshift when engine is 4500-5500
(FYI: that means that in my neighborhood, I wont be getting out of first gear as 5000 is about 31mph I think)
2) NEVER let the Spyder downshift on its own
3) Downshift no less than 3500 rpm
(back to the neighborhood, If I shift and go 35, I will almost immediatley be downshifting again as when it does, the engine RPM will barely be above 4000)
This example is just for my understanding, the speed values may be slightly off.

[Jeriatric]

Soooo, in summary: (SE5 only here)
1) Upshift when engine is 4500-5500
(FYI: that means that in my neighborhood, I wont be getting out of first gear as 5000 is about 31mph I think)
2) NEVER let the Spyder downshift on its own
3) Downshift no less than 3500 rpm
(back to the neighborhood, If I shift and go 35, I will almost immediatley be downshifting again as when it does, the engine RPM will barely be above 4000)
This example is just for my understanding, the speed values may be slightly off.


Speed limits are for everyone's safety.

Proper RPM's are key to your spyder's longevity.

Pay attention to your RPM's and speed. Not what gear you're in.

:thumbup:

[Bob Ledford]

There seems to be such a difference of opinion on when to up shift, down shift or whether to shift at all. Opinions are getting like eyeballs everyone has at least two and one or more functions.

I personally have quit trying to watch or drive by the tachometer. I upshift when the engine feels good and smooth. I downshift when it feels good. My gas mileage is better then most but no worse then the worst. My power or throttle response is right on target for quick keeping my butt safely ahead or out of trouble.

Personally I like riding by feel and not by tach all the time. The other day I rode almost 4 hours and never got below 3rd or out of 4th and got 32MPG when I stopped to top it off before quitting for the day.

The only thing I would like to see cleared up is when the darn clutch is out of slippage range is it 3,000/3,500/4,000 RPM or what for a 2011 RTL SE-5? So I can rest my brain and concentrate on enjoying my ride without smoking or burning up the clutch or brake pads!

Referencing letting the computer control down shift points. I will finger shift as it is smoother. I do not like the feeling of a mandatory down shift point.

[Bob Denman]

I think that my OCD gets worked up over this also... :shocked:
I hate to go screaming down through Town in first... (30mph), so I'll gear up to 3rd and "loaf" along at 4,000 rpm, and about 37 or 38 mph...
waiting for the lights in the mirrors... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_12_32.gif
Another nearby Town has a 40 mph limit...
So I run in 4th at about 46 mph; keeping a close lookout for lights and sirens! ;)
Maybe they need to gear these babies down so that we can REALLY gripe about the need for a sixth forward gear! :roflblack:

[MidLifeCrisis]

Maybe they need to gear these babies down so that we can REALLY gripe about the need for a sixth forward gear! :roflblack:

That would definitely help the Spyder stay in its comfort zone and keep us legal. The speed limit always does seem over or under the sweet spot.


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[Jeriatric]

My KTM came without a gear indicator. Know why? It's all about operating it in the proper RPM range. Perhaps BRP should lose the gear indicator. People seem to be obsessed about what gear they are in instead of operating in the ROTAX's engineered RPM range.

[kepople]

My KTM came without a gear indicator. Know why? It's all about operating it in the proper RPM range. Perhaps BRP should lose the gear indicator. People seem to be obsessed about what gear they are in instead of operating in the ROTAX's engineered RPM range.

So a final clarification of this:

Keep the motor RPM's between 4500-5500 all the time, and fiddle with the shifting until you are there under the speed limit :-)

Correct... or speed limit be darned? ;-)

[Jeriatric]

So a final clarification of this:

Keep the motor RPM's between 4500-5500 all the time, and fiddle with the shifting until you are there under the speed limit :-)

Correct... or speed limit be darned? ;-)

Gear 1,2,3,4 > above 4K to around 6K

Gear 5 > 5200 RPM and up. And UP means if you're loaded and pulling a grade or bumping a head wind and you feel the engine struggling, vibrating, drop it down a gear. Keep it below 6K and carry on.

[ARtraveler]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but:
I read the thread about shifting.
Just curious who is following the shifting at 5000rpm philosophy?

Also where are you down shifting?
I seem to downshift higher and use the engine to slow. Don't know if its hard on the tranny or not though...

As you can see, there are a lot of helpful hints about the shifting rpm's and protocols. Personally, I have went to the darker side and shift between 5000 and 6000 depending. I also like to manually downshift. Most gears I downshift at 4500. 2nd to 1st, I shift at about 3500.

For me, I don't like the clunk when shifting up or down. The ranges I mentioned work for me and most shifts are seamless.

Bottom Line: I recommend doing the shifts at 4000 or better, and then find that sweet spot that works best for you.

[NancysToy]

Wow! I can't believe how many interpretations of this have come of this hijacked topic. Forget about when to shift, what is important is after you shift. The Spyder SE clutch isn't fully engaged until 3,200 rpm +/- 200 rpm. After you shift your rpm should not be lower than that if you are on the throttle. Higher rpm would actually be adviseable...you don't want to cut it too close.

My advice...when you are going down the road, try to remain at 4K or above. If you are cruising easy, on flat ground, at low throttle settings you may even get by with slightly less, but under no circumstance should an SE be operated below 3,500 rpm unless you want to risk clutch wear and eventual damage. You won't hurt this thing by keeping the rpm up, and you won't get better mileage by keeping it very low. The engine and clutch need to stay happy. They last longer and perform better if they are.

[jthornton]

I just let the spyder downshift by itself like the designers intended it to do when coming to a stop with the throttle off. :bdh:

JT

[Bob Denman]

My advice...when you are going down the road, try to remain at 4K or above. If you are cruising easy, on flat ground, at low throttle settings you may even get by with slightly less, but under no circumstance should an SE be operated below 3,500 rpm unless you want to risk clutch wear and eventual damage. You won't hurt this thing by keeping the rpm up, and you won't get better mileage by keeping it very low. The engine and clutch need to stay happy. They last longer and perform better if they are.

:cheers: Here! Here! :cheers:

[Grandpa Spyder]

I keep mine in trailer mode all the time, it requires you to shift at 4500 rpms or higher and it downshifts automatically at 3500 rpms

[kepople]

I keep mine in trailer mode all the time, it requires you to shift at 4500 rpms or higher and it downshifts automatically at 3500 rpms

Interesting idea....

[vondalyn]

In my opinion the auto downshifting is just meant to be a backup. I think BRP fully intended for the Spyder to be electricall shifted by the rider, both up and down. If the rider fails to do so, however, the engine could stall if the rpm dropped too low, so there was a need for a backup. If they had wanted it to shift automatically, at the optimum shift points, they would have made it shift automatically in both directions. The ide of an electric shift is to make it easier to shift and to eliminate the clutch, not to provide a fully automatic transmission. JMHO
I agree 100% with this -- you should be shifting up and down, just like you would with a clutch.

[Sny]

Wow! I can't believe how many interpretations of this have come of this hijacked topic. Forget about when to shift, what is important is after you shift. The Spyder SE clutch isn't fully engaged until 3,200 rpm +/- 200 rpm. After you shift your rpm should not be lower than that if you are on the throttle. Higher rpm would actually be adviseable...you don't want to cut it too close.

My advice...when you are going down the road, try to remain at 4K or above. If you are cruising easy, on flat ground, at low throttle settings you may even get by with slightly less, but under no circumstance should an SE be operated below 3,500 rpm unless you want to risk clutch wear and eventual damage. You won't hurt this thing by keeping the rpm up, and you won't get better mileage by keeping it very low. The engine and clutch need to stay happy. They last longer and perform better if they are.
Thanks for that Scotty, I was about to try and re-summerize it myself.

One thing to note, and I know this will just add to the confusion of some:

Once above 3200+/-200 rpm (I would just say 3750 for safety buffer) the clutches lock up and won't unlock even if you go below that rpm until you get down to very low speeds in 1st gear to come to a stop.

Good:
From a stop, accelerate to 5200rpms, shift, watch the rpms drop to a very comfortable 4200rpms and continue to accelerate slowly and smoothly.

Bad:
From a stop, accelerate to 4000rpms, shift, watch the rpms drop to a clutch destroying 3000rpms, melt away ablative material until your rpms are above 3500 when the clutches finally can grab fully, assuming they're not damaged in which case it'll be 3600, or 3800, or 4200... or... time for a new transmission.

Not recommended but not bad for your clutches:
Accelerate to 5200rpms, shift, watch rpms drop to 4200... see the guy in front slow down, roll off the throttle and let the rpms drop to 3000... the clutches stay locked and no damage done. You can then, slowly, accelerate back up into the operating range of the Spyder. The problem with this is if you get on the throttle too hard, you lug the Rotax something fierce. More blowby, hard wear on the lower end, damage to ring lands... seriously cuts into the life of the engine.

I verified this with 2 BRP techs and 1 certified BRP technician. They all said the same thing. Keep it above 4000. Just... keep it there. Forget what gear or speed or what your neighbors think, just keep it above 4000... always. No reason to use it below those rpms, it's not designed to spend much time there.