Deceived by BRP or Dealer??

[lyonsden]

Interested to know what you think about this. I was asked to participate in a "data collection initiative" by my dealer through this email.

"As a valued customer and Spyder Rider we are asking you to participate in a data collection initiative we
are undertaking with Can Am.
The purpose is to determine what, if any, electronic upgrades would be beneficial to the Can Am Spyder.
As a Spyder Rider you are our best source of information.

Here’s what is involved:
Bring your Spyder by the dealership and we will download a baseline data reading which should take 10
minutes.Then go for a 15 minute ride and return, we will then re- do the data download for comparison..
For participating Can Am will send you a $50.00 Gift Certificate and automatically enter your name
for a drawing for a $250.00 Parts and Accessory Give-A-Way.
If you want to simply drop off you Spyder and return later we will take care of everything."

So I decided to do this figured anything to help make the Spyders better for the future. If you notice it doesn't say a word about making any changes to my Spyder. Then I received this email calling it a "campaign pre-release program"

"Dear valued Spyder owner,

BRP would like to thank you for participating in our campaign pre-release program.

Part of our program is to retrieve information after the update has been installed in your unit. By

participating in our on-line survey you will be granted a 50$ BRP PAC (Parts, Accessories, Clothing) credit

at your participating dealership. Your input will be greatly appreciated.

With your on-line survey filled out, as an added incentive, we are willing to increase your BRP PAC credit

to 100$ if you return to your participating dealership with your unit to allow them to retrieve electronic

module information
before Sunday March 25th, 2012.


We will confirm by email when your credit will be available.

By filling out our on-line survey you automatically become eligible for the additional 250$ BRP PAC draw

(the draw will be done in the week of April 2nd 2012)."

So then I went and took the survey and it is very apparent they made changes to my Spyder without my permission by the questions they ask. Survey is below.


436504365143652

I received a call from someone at BRP because I said I wasn't very happy about this in the survey and he said he would send me Carlo's email which he didn't. I found the email here on SL's and sent Carlo and email but I haven't heard anything. I know he was having some personal things going on but they need to have someone call me and explain this I think. What do you think? Do I have a right to be upset about this?

[Bob Denman]

:hun:What changes did they make? :shocked: (Or was I just too dense to be able to find them?:opps:)
I'm hoping that they're just fishing for data on real-world riding situations; what else could they be even looking for? :dontknow:
I wouldn't get too mad... YET!

[MarkLawson]

Seems to me that you have just cause to question what they did and why you were not given notice that they were updating the ECM of your Spyder prior to making those changes.

[lyonsden]

:hun:What changes did they make? :shocked: (Or was I just too dense to be able to find them?:opps:)
I'm hoping that they're just fishing for data on real-world riding situations; what else could they be even looking for? :dontknow:
I wouldn't get too mad... YET!

The initial email says "data collection" and the second email says "campaign pre-release". They installed an update for the throttle body problem and I wasn't having any problems. I did read on here somewhere now there is a recall for the throttle body problem. Esentually they installed the update experimenting is what it looks like to me.

[Bob Denman]

I think I'd be at the dealers asking them IN A LOUD VOICE! to explain exactly what was done, why was it done, and what possible repercussions could there be? If your bike was running right before they did brain surgery, it had better be running right after it... or else! :gaah:
Please keep us in the loop, and good Luck! :thumbup:

[boborgera]

At this point was it worth the [free?] 50$ :dontknow:
Sounds like Big Brother was tracking you, Notice any drones over head lately.:roflblack:

[ARtraveler]

:agree:

[lyonsden]

At this point was it worth the [free?] 50$ :dontknow:
Sounds like Big Brother was tracking you, Notice any drones over head lately.:roflblack:

No it wasn't. I haven't even gotten the $50 yet??:dontknow:

[wyliec]

Have you noticed any difference in the operation of your spyder? And, yes I would go back and ask what was done. If you don't like what was done, ask them to return to the campaign pre-release. But, I wouldn't do it in a 'loud' voice unless you've noticed a change in the operation of your spyder (in the wrong direction).

[docdoru]

1. The "Data Collection" was done on Florida also via B.U.D.S.: read the ECM, insert patch, ryde, return and remove patch.
2. The 4.4.2012 Update was done based of the results of the Data Collection.
3. All the Florida Spyder ryders like the "update" during the test.
3. You should know that there is no "free lunch" :joke:

[dave01]

3. You should know that there is no "free lunch" :joke:
Hooters has free lunch, but you have to pay to sit at the bar.......

[Arr MiHardies]

I remember reading about these when they were being done. Note that I wasn't invited to participate, but it Seemed clear to me, if not explicitly stated, that the 15 minute ride was to test some new settings or another and those settings would be reverted until they could finalize their data collection and make a decision on whatever they were doing.

[pro10is]

You were a participant in a BRP Beta Test of a new software release. A "Beta Test" is the last stage of a software pre-release after a stable (but smaller in scope) Alpha Test. The purpose of a Beta Test is to find any unexpected bugs by widening the test base considerably from the initial Alpha tests. Beta tests are best accomplished in as real world conditions as possible. It is the mark of a competent, organized, and professional software development team to perform controlled Beta testing before releasing software to all end users.

It appears that this was done on a strictly volunteer basis and with appreciatory reward of $50-$100.

However, as I understand it, you are displeased with the vague explanation of the campaign which lead to the apparent misunderstanding that the software change was only temporary. I believe you are justified in your objection as BRP's letter to you was not an adequate explanation of a Beta test. They should have been more up front and offered a clear and rational explanation of exactly what they were going to do in layman's terms to be certain everyone involved would understand.

If you feel you would have not been a participant in the test knowing what you know now, then I would write a letter to BRP expressing your opinion in hopes that future testing will contain a much better explanation to volunteers.

To anyone else who receives a request to be a participant in a Beta Test of BRP software here are some facts and information:

By the time software reaches the Beta level it has already undergone considerable testing and major issues are unlikely.
However "real time" software such as in the Spyder is very difficult to develop and test. A Beta release may, and often does, contain hidden bugs or other issues.
The best way to find those issues is to put it in actual use on as many actual machines as practical and monitor the results. Thus the real need for campaigns.
Although highly unlikely, a bug might, in a worst case scenario, possibly cause damage. More likely it might cause some minor performance issues.
Most Beta software is modified before a final release so be sure you receive the final release.
I wouldn't recommend participating in such a study before taking a major trip.
Ask the dealer to reinstall the last released software if you feel at all uneasy about the Beta release.
If you volunteer for a Beta test you are helping the Spyder community and we all should thank you.

[Firefly]

Okay..... I think a deep breath is in order.

While I've not seen BRP do this exact kind of thing.... a pre-release, etc..... If you go in to have any work done on your Spyder and there is a new update available via BUDS... they're basically going to install it whether you want it or not.

BRP owns the software code stored in the Spyder computer... and thus has control over any changes made to it.

There have been a few times where BRP released an update and it ended up causing other problems.... so my guess is they're doing this 'pre release' thing with an incentive for you in order to further test the update before doing a massive release.

They should have better explained this to you for sure. I guess if you don't want the $50 or whatever, you can take the Spyder back and see if they can revert it back for you..... but you'll end up with whatever this update is eventually anyway.

I wouldn't be too upset unless you notice anything negative.

[fastfraser]

You were a participant in a BRP Beta Test of a new software release. A "Beta Test" is the last stage of a software pre-release after a stable (but smaller in scope) Alpha Test. The purpose of a Beta Test is to find any unexpected bugs by widening the test base considerably from the initial Alpha tests. Beta tests are best accomplished in as real world conditions as possible. It is the mark of a competent, organized, and professional software development team to perform controlled Beta testing before releasing software to all end users.

It appears that this was done on a strictly volunteer basis and with appreciatory reward of $50-$100.

However, as I understand it, you are displeased with the vague explanation of the campaign which lead to the apparent misunderstanding that the software change was only temporary. I believe you are justified in your objection as BRP's letter to you was not an adequate explanation of a Beta test. They should have been more up front and offered a clear and rational explanation of exactly what they were going to do in layman's terms to be certain everyone involved would understand.

If you feel you would have not been a participant in the test knowing what you know now, then I would write a letter to BRP expressing your opinion in hopes that future testing will contain a much better explanation to volunteers.

To anyone else who receives a request to be a participant in a Beta Test of BRP software here are some facts and information:

By the time software reaches the Beta level it has already undergone considerable testing and major issues are unlikely.
However "real time" software such as in the Spider is very difficult to develop and test. A Beta release may, and often does, contain hidden bugs or other issues.
The best way to find those issues is to put it in actual use on as many actual machines as practical and monitor the results. Thus the real need for campaigns.
Although highly unlikely, a bug might, in a worst case scenario, possibly cause damage. More likely it might cause some minor performance issues.
Most Beta software is modified before a final release so be sure you receive the final release.
I wouldn't recommend participating in such a study before taking a major trip.
Ask the dealer to reinstall the last released software if you feel at all uneasy about the Beta release.
If you volunteer for a Beta test you are helping the Spyder community and we all should thank you.




Nice explanation ! I wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies from reading the other posts. As stated there are no free lunches,somewhere you are going to pay the piper .

[docdoru]

I wouldn't recommend participating in such a study before taking a major trip.

Can you imagine that Pfizer start the Viagra clinical trials as a low blood pressure medication?

[Bob Denman]

[QUOTE=fastfraser;438746]Nice explanation ! I wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies from reading the other posts.QUOTE]

:agree:
:clap::firstplace:

[lyonsden]

I don't really think that I would have objected to the update had I been told. I don't think they should have installed any Beta software without me approving first. That is my big gripe, not be told before hand. I haven't seen any thing negative from the update so far. To me there is a huge difference between a "data collection" and a software update.

[lyonsden]

Don't you agree that the initial email should have stated that it was a Beta Test of new software, not a "data collection"?


You were a participant in a BRP Beta Test of a new software release. A "Beta Test" is the last stage of a software pre-release after a stable (but smaller in scope) Alpha Test. The purpose of a Beta Test is to find any unexpected bugs by widening the test base considerably from the initial Alpha tests. Beta tests are best accomplished in as real world conditions as possible. It is the mark of a competent, organized, and professional software development team to perform controlled Beta testing before releasing software to all end users.

It appears that this was done on a strictly volunteer basis and with appreciatory reward of $50-$100.

However, as I understand it, you are displeased with the vague explanation of the campaign which lead to the apparent misunderstanding that the software change was only temporary. I believe you are justified in your objection as BRP's letter to you was not an adequate explanation of a Beta test. They should have been more up front and offered a clear and rational explanation of exactly what they were going to do in layman's terms to be certain everyone involved would understand.

If you feel you would have not been a participant in the test knowing what you know now, then I would write a letter to BRP expressing your opinion in hopes that future testing will contain a much better explanation to volunteers.

To anyone else who receives a request to be a participant in a Beta Test of BRP software here are some facts and information:

By the time software reaches the Beta level it has already undergone considerable testing and major issues are unlikely.
However "real time" software such as in the Spyder is very difficult to develop and test. A Beta release may, and often does, contain hidden bugs or other issues.
The best way to find those issues is to put it in actual use on as many actual machines as practical and monitor the results. Thus the real need for campaigns.
Although highly unlikely, a bug might, in a worst case scenario, possibly cause damage. More likely it might cause some minor performance issues.
Most Beta software is modified before a final release so be sure you receive the final release.
I wouldn't recommend participating in such a study before taking a major trip.
Ask the dealer to reinstall the last released software if you feel at all uneasy about the Beta release.
If you volunteer for a Beta test you are helping the Spyder community and we all should thank you.

[SpydherLuv]

When I read this part: "The purpose is to determine what, if any, electronic upgrades would be beneficial to the Can Am Spyder.
As a Spyder Rider you are our best source of information." I interpreted it to say Guinea Pig. But it is very vague and I agree that the communication could have been written clearer. Sometimes folks who write technical documents for a living forget that those who are non-technical minded do not read their documents the same way as they are written.

The way I read it, they collected data from your Spyder, installed an update, rode the Spyder for a specified period of time, collected the data from the Spyder, then removed the update. I coud be wrong....:dontknow:

Also, if the dealer updated the ECM and did the current campaign, they must document that somewhere, right? Isn't is illegal to perform work on a vehicle without a work order?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

pro10is you " ROCK " can I get an "OH YEA" Mike..........:agree::thumbup:

[arntufun]

Nice explanation ! I wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies from reading the other posts. As stated there are no free lunches,somewhere you are going to pay the piper .




This is totally untrue !!!!! :lecturef_smilie: Every year Holly and I receive a free turkey dinner at Thankgiving, Easter and Christmas. We go to the city mission and act like we are homeless and get a large turkey dinner with all the fixin's for free.:yikes:

:joke:

[lyonsden]

This is totally untrue !!!!! :lecturef_smilie: Every year Holly and I receive a free turkey dinner at Thankgiving, Easter and Christmas. We go to the city mission and act like we are homeless and get a large turkey dinner with all the fixin's for free.:yikes:

:joke:
Where did you find that good pic of Hillary? She's looking a little ruff these days.:yikes:

[johnwinslow]

This is totally untrue !!!!! :lecturef_smilie: Every year Holly and I receive a free turkey dinner at Thankgiving, Easter and Christmas. We go to the city mission and act like we are homeless and get a large turkey dinner with all the fixin's for free.:yikes:

:joke: i have noticed that you are hanging with some very ????able women, i do not believe anyone that exhibits unsafe practices.:joke:

[Firefly]

This is totally untrue !!!!! :lecturef_smilie: Every year Holly and I receive a free turkey dinner at Thankgiving, Easter and Christmas. We go to the city mission and act like we are homeless and get a large turkey dinner with all the fixin's for free.:yikes:

:joke:

Glad to see you tripled the IQ with this one since dumping Nancy..........:thumbup:

[cearley]

can't help but wonder if all the above is somehow related to this previous post.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?37988-Roadster-2012-4-A-Updated-Throttle-Body-Actuator-Protection-B

If they can make it more more reliable I'm all for it, but if they screw it up it better be on their dime. I can't see why they need our bikes when the have the entire production line and lab facilities at their disposal. I think they over think some of the stuff they come up with. These machines are pretty sophisticated but with over kill. Something like brake fart shouldn't shut you down. Just give us a warning light and let us get home. If they want to put car like systems on the bike that's nice, but the owners should be allowed to access the system for trouble shooting or rebooting from the occasional glitch with standard OBD equipment. That's just my dumb opinion:shocked: