Chevy Volt ad, see it while u can

[Campverdefela]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4a7GG8_2V0&seo=goo_|_2011_Chevy_Retention_YouTube_|_IMG_Chevy _Volt_YouTube_PV_|_Volt_Video_|_volt_ad&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Retention_YouTube-Chevy-IMG_Chevy_Volt_YouTube_PV&utm_content=YouTube&utm_term=volt_ad

[Jesse]

Why??

[Bob Denman]

GM is pulling the plug... :gaah:

[arntufun]

I didn't know that !!! :dontknow:

Thats going to suck for Spydergirl. She just bought one. Parts will be hard to come by if she needs them. She better dump that thing while she can.

[Y Rider]

I read that GM was just going to halt production until April 23rd to allow dealerships to sell existing inventory. There not moving to quick because of the high price. $41K !! :yikes:

[boborgera]

The only people who buy Electric / Hybrid cars Are people who can afford the high price of gas'.
Think about it, With the extra cost of those cars you can buy years worth of gas for the average car.

[Firefly]

They are not pulling the plug at all.....

They had hoped to sell 10,000 Volts by the end of last year, but only sold 7,600.... which is still pretty impressive. They had a goal of 45,000 for this year, but now are thinking more in the 30,000 range -- hence the temporary line shutdown.

Price does seem to be a problem, but remember-- your cost is not the MSRP $41,000 --- you get a $7,500 tax credit-- which puts it in the low $ 30,000 range. You can lease one for around $350 a month.

The Prius didn't sell that great at first either... and the Volt has technology that will flow over to the entire auto industry... it really is an amazing engineering job.

They aren't going away anytime soon.....:thumbup:

Heck-- another couple years and we'll be posting about our Hybrid Spyders out here !

[rnet]

I don't understand why I should have to pony up taxes to pay for a car for someone else to drive. If this car could stand on it's own, people would not need an incentive to buy it. If it was that good everyone would have one. Another ***** failure.

[zrc]

I don't understand why I should have to pony up taxes to pay for a car for someone else to drive. If this car could stand on it's own, people would not need an incentive to buy it. If it was that good everyone would have one. Another ***** failure.

I would tend to agree here. I am an engineer, I understand that there is some odd kind of energy crisis, and gas sucks to buy. But making cars electric, and then making you pay 40k for them to then pay out your chocolate fudge maker to keep them charged. Just wait till there are meters in public to charge them that you have to pay to park AND pay to charge.

If I go buy one, I want the 7,500 right then, and as a taxpayer I dont want to help people that can afford to buy a 41k car with my tax money. If that makes me a bad person, then so freaking be it. I pay MY bills. My mortgage, my utilities, my insurances that never seem to pay out right, my taxes, my social security (like I will ever see anything from this garbage), my part of the stimulus bill that went to companys to make these cars, and so on and so forth... I pay what I owe, and then some in my opinion (can you tell its tax season?). I bought a spyder, I have a mustang, I like this concept, I think it should be just as affordable as a regular car, and I need them to explain to me in real concept dollars why it isnt.

As an engineer I know that this is not the most effective vehicle, I know that vehicles have been made that can get in the 120 plus gas range that are powered through gas, electricity, and hydrolics (no clue how to spell this).

Im just saying that at some point I would like to stop paying for things for people that either a.) actively dont work (as in never have and never will), or b.) could afford it anyway.


Can someone burn this box Im on, I need a cigerette.

[arntufun]

I don't understand why I should have to pony up taxes to pay for a car for someone else to drive. If this car could stand on it's own, people would not need an incentive to buy it. If it was that good everyone would have one. Another ***** failure.





:agree:
:agree:

[Arr MiHardies]

I don't understand why I should have to pony up taxes to pay for a car for someone else to drive. If this car could stand on it's own, people would not need an incentive to buy it. If it was that good everyone would have one. Another ***** failure.

How does one equate someone getting a write off on taxes for purchasing a very fuel efficient vehicle to someone else having to "pony up" taxes to pay for that other persons vehicle? It's effectively money off the top of their bill to uncle Sam that the first person owes. So how does that equal to you paying more? Sounds like the same kind of math I see at my employer where 63 positive number average out to -2x the real average. (seriously. How can I arrive at my destination an average of an hour and a half before I depart)

As for being a failure... I'll let Spydergirl address that. She posted a odometer photo on Facebook last week showing she was getting around 250 mpg in her Volt. That sounds like pretty darned good incentive to buy one to me. The whole hold back is the out the door price. I would agree though that given the tax payer bailout of these companies, they should repay the American people by making their vehicles actually cost less... Regardless of technological sophistication...

[Firefly]

Guess I could say I don't like MY tax money going towards people that decide to have a bunch of kids. I mean what do people get per year now as a tax deduction per kid??? $3,000 ????

We ALL pay for taxes--- and we ALL benefit... it's called society... and we cannot pick and choose (other than with our votes) how that money is spent. I'd prefer MY tax money not be used for wars we shouldn't be in.... but I do.

-----------------
BTW rnet------ the tax credit for these cars was a program of the previous administration..... here's the info from Fox.... so you'll believe it..... lol :

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car/


Guess some just don't get it and want to keep us using 100+ year old technology.......:banghead:

[boborgera]

They are not pulling the plug at all.....

.

Price does seem to be a problem, but remember-- your cost is not the MSRP $41,000 --- you get a $7,500 tax credit-- which puts it in the low $ 30,000 range. You can lease one for around $350 a month.


!
Thats a tax credit, Not a rebate or a 7500 discount.

[dancogan]

... here's the info from Fox.... so you'll believe it..... lol :...

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflb lack:

[spyder3]

Guess I could say I don't like MY tax money going towards people that decide to have a bunch of kids. I mean what do people get per year now as a tax deduction per kid??? $3,000 ????

We ALL pay for taxes--- and we ALL benefit... it's called society... and we cannot pick and choose (other than with our votes) how that money is spent. I'd prefer MY tax money not be used for wars we shouldn't be in.... but I do.

-----------------
BTW rnet------ the tax credit for these cars was a program of the previous administration..... here's the info from Fox.... so you'll believe it..... lol :

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car/


Guess some just don't get it and want to keep us using 100+ year old technology.......:banghead:

Some don't get that until we use our own energy reserves WE continue to Support our enemy's only natural resource. If it wasn't for the high prices nobody would be discussing this "100+ technology". :banghead::banghead:

[ARtraveler]

Plugging the car into the power grid to recharge still uses fossil fuels--just not in the car.

Who is paying for the electricity when they are plugging in away from home? I would not be to happy if I looked out and saw an extension cord from someones car plugged into my power outlet.

Snip Snip :roflblack:

[boborgera]

Another thought, Once the roads are full of Electric cars, How does the Government figure how to charge the Owners the road use tax [it's included in every gal of gas now], Charge by the mile's driven. :dontknow:

[rnet]

Plugging the car into the power grid to recharge still uses fossil fuels--just not in the car.

Who is paying for the electricity when they are plugging in away from home? I would not be to happy if I looked out and saw an extension cord from someones car plugged into my power outlet.

Snip Snip :roflblack:The first person to bring up miles per pound of coal:bowdown: It's good that some look at the whole picture. Even the guy in the add was stealing from his boss as well as the taxpayer.

[rnet]

Another thought, Once the roads are full of Electric cars, How does the Government figure how to charge the Owners the road use tax [it's included in every gal of gas now], Charge by the mile's driven. :dontknow:Another valid point, but Bob the government will figure a way to get your money.:roflblack:

[bill pitman]

I drive a 2003 Honda Insight.
I purchased it in July of 2004.
It was in the showroom for a fair amount of time before I laid down $18500.00 for it.
At the time, gas prices must have been down and God forbid, why buy a 2-seater car that gets 50+mpg!
Long story short, I turned out to be a "genius" for buying that car. Shorty thereafter, gas prices rose and I was thankful for the purchase.
So, now, not quite 8 years later, 197,000 miles and an average of 55.9mpg......it still bugs me when I fill up. And PLEASE don't tell me..." well gas in Europe is $8.00/gal ..." I'm not in Europe, I don't really care what they pay there. I care what I am paying here.

Here's the thing, go outside on any bright sunny day.
The answer to our energy problems lie in that large orange SUN in the sky,93,000,000 miles away. An inexhaustable supply of energy just waiting to be harnessed.
AND, if and when THAT light goes out.... no need to worry any more!

Sorry for the rant...just sayin..

Bill Pitman

[MarkLawson]

There are lots of problems with the Volt. First, if there was only a $7500 tax rebate, it wouldn't be so bad. The truth is our tax dollars subsidize each Volt to the tune of $200,000. That is how GM managed to even get it into production. Without billions from you and me, it would have never seen the light of day.

The second problem is the current power grid is not designed to support these cars. According to a Georgia Power executive friend, the power transformers you see on the power poles cannot support more than 2 of those cars. For the technology to go into widespread use, hundreds of billions of dollars would have be spent to upgrade the power grid.

Nothing is free. It's not even cheap.

[Firefly]

The whole "volt is subsidized $200,000 each" rhetoric is 100% false. Total made up BS. Like you can fairly just look at ONE year of sales and divide that into the amount of government subsidies?? We wouldn't have most of the great things we have today without such subsidies.... Roads, cars, phones, Internet, trains, electricity, etc are all examples of such subsidies.

Yes, we will have to get off the coal.... Using new nuclear, wind, solar, etc.

Yes, they will need a different tax structure to collect money to pave and maintain roads...... Unless you think they'll magically pave themselves.......lol

And no, the guy in the ad is in no way 'stealing' from anyone. There are various tax credits many of us get that others don't.

I commend those that have taken the leap to embrace these new technologies.

[IWN2RYD]

Just being a smart butt here...

Buy a Spyder and save the planet!

Besides... Ever notice no one says what the cost electrical charging cost is to recharge the Volt? I am researching this off and on because I want an efficient form of transportation to the office... But the $41,000 price is not what I see here.. More like $48-52,000... Kind of kills all the gains in fuel mileage...

[Bob Denman]

Electric vehicles won't work over here except in the Metropolitan markets where trips are much shorter. Current battery capacity seems to yield a range of about 100 miles. That would barely get the Missus and I out to the closest mall for a day of people-watching. Any detours along the way and we'd be riding the "Thumb Express" home :gaah: Yet they'll put even more strain on a powergrid that has trouble keeping up during peak usage periods right now.

[dancogan]

Electric vehicles won't work over here except in the Metropolitan markets where trips are much shorter. Current battery capacity seems to yield a range of about 100 miles. That would barely get the Missus and I out to the closest mall for a day of people-watching. Any detours along the way and we'd be riding the "Thumb Express" home :gaah: Yet they'll put even more strain on a powergrid that has trouble keeping up during peak usage periods right now.

Be careful not to over generalize. Over 1 million Prius have been sold in the US, and another million in Japan. Some form of electric powered vehicles are making large inroads into pure gas driven cars. And getting electricity off the grid is likely far more efficient than firing up a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder car, even if the electricity is from a coal fired plant.

[Bob Denman]

I know there's a lot of potential for stepping in it with this topic... :opps:
I don't think that the Prius requires plugging in?? :dontknow: But it seems as if the Volt will.
Because of our location I have pretty much stayed away from the while issue of battery-pwered modes of transportation; limited range makes them useless to me. :gaah:

[boborgera]

Fully electric will never happen.
Fully electric cars will kill the manufacturer's of, Muffles, tail pipes, gas tanks, spark plugs, wires, etc,etc, And just about every thing else that go into gas driven cars,
Most dealers and independent repair shops will go out, That's the real reason why GM killed the electric car in the 70's.
So if you happen to be working in one of those industries you'll be out of work and won't have the money to buy an electric car.

[Arr MiHardies]

I know there's a lot of potential for stepping in it with this topic... :opps:
I don't think that the Prius requires plugging in?? :dontknow: But it seems as if the Volt will.
Because of our location I have pretty much stayed away from the while issue of battery-pwered modes of transportation; limited range makes them useless to me. :gaah:

The volt plugs in and has a range around 40 miles by battery, then a gas powered generator kicks in to continue powering the electric motor.

[Bob Denman]

Remember the past or you'll be forced to re-live it...

[MarkLawson]

...And getting electricity off the grid is likely far more efficient than firing up a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder car, even if the electricity is from a coal fired plant.

Except that grid is not designed for the additional load.

[zrc]

Fully electric will never happen.
Fully electric cars will kill the manufacturer's of, Muffles, tail pipes, gas tanks, spark plugs, wires, etc,etc, And just about every thing else that go into gas driven cars,
Most dealers and independent repair shops will go out, That's the real reason why GM killed the electric car in the 70's.
So if you happen to be working in one of those industries you'll be out of work and won't have the money to buy an electric car.

I agree here, the devistation on the economy from going to fully electric would be shamazing to behold.

The other key comment here, the phasing out of gas stations, that is an industry that is all kinds of crazy. Loss of Taxes at the pump will result in sky rocketing electrical fines / bills / taxes at your house and at your employer, and then electrical meters would spring up everywhere to charge you at the parking lot to park and charge, and it would be loaded with bills / fines / taxes as well.

Then you lose all the jobs that are the Emmissions people with the DOTs in each state, the check fees, the licensing fee, rechecks, etc.

The overall BIG PICTURE effect would be brutality on an economy. Not to mention, when it happens, watch for some mandate from the government to draw gas stations down to a minimum but hold them there for people that have antiques, and what gas will cost THEN. Remember what it was like when we didnt have cell phones, we could use a payphone anywhere, banks of them in malls and airports and all over.

What happens with gas stations go the route of pay phones. Just ask The USPS about what they think of email, and hallmark what it thinks of ecards.

Everything has a price, and losing the supporting structure around internal combustion engines would be nothing short of catastrophic on an economy that I do not think could take a blow of that size at this time due to the slow steady recovery rate currently.

[Campverdefela]

Why??
Sorry u-all I thought I was linking the Volt Spoof video that's been circulating but has since been pulled by GM copyright protection. However this has brought up some interesting discussions.

[Firefly]

Fully electric will never happen.
Fully electric cars will kill the manufacturer's of, Muffles, tail pipes, gas tanks, spark plugs, wires, etc,etc, And just about every thing else that go into gas driven cars,
Most dealers and independent repair shops will go out, That's the real reason why GM killed the electric car in the 70's.
So if you happen to be working in one of those industries you'll be out of work and won't have the money to buy an electric car.

I bet people said the exact same kinds of things when cars started replacing the horse and buggy......:roflblack: oh nooooo--- it's gonna put blacksmiths out of business, hay suppliers, etc...... but tons of new jobs were created as those went by the wayside.

It won't happen overnight... it will be a gradual change.... and with that change will be a change in the jobs that support newer vehicle types. They will still require maintenance and support.

We have a new battery plant right in my town that employs around 100 people. New technology creates jobs.

Gas stations will start offering 'charging stations' or maybe a quick 'battery swap' option. :thumbup:

GM didn't kill the electric car -- and it wasn't in the 70's, it was in the 90's with their EV1 vehicle. Many factors contributed to the failure. Big oil companies actually purchased charging stations in California..... and closed them.... which didn't help things.

We'll see battery technology advance in the next decade to where you'll get a few hundred miles off a charge.... but hydrogen fuel cells will be the real future..... and they will generate the electricity to power all electric vehicles.

Right now, most charging is done during the low-use hours at night, so the impact on the grid won't be that great... and the grid will have to grow as more electric cars get on the road.

I find it kinda funny that people who have spent $20,000 to $35,000 on our 'toys' out here are complaining about the price of the Volt($33,000+- after tax credits).

[zrc]

Hey my Toy is my main mode of transportation at this time! And it was only 14k, can I get a tax credit on that action? I have never in my life paid more than 20k for a car, so I am just cheap when it comes to transportation.

My main gripe is that if it is the wave of the future, and it is where the country needs to go to remedy obvious issues, why are there not more efforts to make it publicly available.

My whining and moaning on the subject is not even really for me, its for the masses. Most people cant afford an electic car at 41k, nor can they even afford gas for their crappy $1500 cars. I have been there, I worked hard to be where I can get a spyder and play now, but I still remember what that is like. And if this ends up like Europe at 8 bucks a gallon. Places where I live will hurt because its rural and removed and it will not be cost effective to work a minimum wage job, and that hurts everyone all the way around. From me to people below me to people above me economically speaking.

I just am always confused by how these "pushes" come from the left and right for better this or that, and they funnel money to businesses, but yet the people can only get a rebate, or a tax credit. Just flat out make it affordable. The government is gonna pay it one way or the other, paying it RIGHT THEN when you are buying woulc make it more governmentally backed in my opinion. Giving you an option for a tax credit that you might or might not get based on a plethora of situations is just sketchy.

[packbuckbrew]

I, for one, am into the technology of this vehicle, but agree that there are some practical considerations that pose major drawbacks for this design. First, you have got to get the power from somewhere, interested to know how much a person's electric bill goes up when you charge this thing every night. Second, how long will the battery last, and what are the implications of 10s or thousands of junked batteries in junk yards? I own a Tahoe hybrid, and get s--t from my friends all the time for being an idiot for paying more for the hybrid. I have 57,000 trouble free miles and based on my calculations when compared to a similarly powered Tahoe, I have about a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency, that has made up the price difference, but certainly isn't any huge benefit. I would prefer a hybrid to the all electrics myself, the volt is somewhere in between with a small gas powered engine that can generate electricity. If I were in the market right now for that sized vehicle, I would go with a Prius, or a diesel.

[Firefly]

I, for one, am into the technology of this vehicle, but agree that there are some practical considerations that pose major drawbacks for this design. First, you have got to get the power from somewhere, interested to know how much a person's electric bill goes up when you charge this thing every night. Second, how long will the battery last, and what are the implications of 10s or thousands of junked batteries in junk yards? I own a Tahoe hybrid, and get s--t from my friends all the time for being an idiot for paying more for the hybrid. I have 57,000 trouble free miles and based on my calculations when compared to a similarly powered Tahoe, I have about a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency, that has made up the price difference, but certainly isn't any huge benefit. I would prefer a hybrid to the all electrics myself, the volt is somewhere in between with a small gas powered engine that can generate electricity. If I were in the market right now for that sized vehicle, I would go with a Prius, or a diesel.

A full charge of the Volt costs anywhere from .75 to 1.75 from what I've read... with most saying they pay far less than $1.00 a day to top it off. I'm sure they have a recycling program for the batteries. One of the new hybrids has a 10 year guarantee on the batteries... they'll replace them as many times as you need them to should they degrade.

Will be really interesting to see how the hybrid Spyder stacks up.....

[MarkLawson]

China's also has control over much of the world's rare earth minerals, which are used in high tech electronics, including batteries. They are not making them as available as our President would like. Another example of the US becoming dependent upon that which is supplied by other countries not very friendly with us.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/*****-pressures-china-over-access-to-rare-earth-minerals/

[MarkLawson]

Another problem is the Volt would not be suitable for someone as an only vehicle. This means they would have to purchase another vehicle which they could use to go, say more than about 30 miles. Could buy a lot of gasoline for that second vehicle for the price of a Volt.

[Firefly]

Another problem is the Volt would not be suitable for someone as an only vehicle. This means they would have to purchase another vehicle which they could use to go, say more than about 30 miles. Could buy a lot of gasoline for that second vehicle for the price of a Volt.


HUH??

The Volt will go as far as any other car on the road. First 40 miles are off electric..... then the gas generator turns on and you can drive however long you want. There is no limit.

[jvicker]

I'm not smart enough to join this conversation. But my Eco friendly vehicle would be the Tesla

42111

http://www.teslamotors.com/models

[wyliec]

I'm not smart enough to join this conversation. But my Eco friendly vehicle would be the Tesla

42111

http://www.teslamotors.com/models

Yeah, me too, if I had the money.

[Arr MiHardies]

I always wanted an Aptera.... Unfortunately they couldn't get the loans they needed to begin production.

http://www.google.com/search?q=aptera&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=2GJhT6S7E6W22gWkwJCUCA&biw=1024&bih=672&sei=4GJhT6vmK8js2gXtyNyBCA

[dancogan]

I'm not smart enough to join this conversation...

If I've learned anything from this converrsation it's that you don't need to be very smart to join in! roflmaoroflmaoroflmao

[Bob Denman]

Did somebody just mention my name?? :roflblack:
"Microbes that eat garbage and excrete oils"?? :shocked:

[MarkLawson]

HUH??

The Volt will go as far as any other car on the road. First 40 miles are off electric..... then the gas generator turns on and you can drive however long you want. There is no limit.

Firefly, I stand corrected. I was unaware it was a duel power source vehicle. It does have an 85.3 cubic inch engine. Here is a link to Edmunds review: http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2012/

From that report:
'If you have a 30-mile round-trip commute and you plug in your Volt every night when you get home (a full charge requires as few as 3 hours), give yourself a gold star. Your fuel economy would be infinite because you'd always be running off the battery pack and hence never use gas.

Now let's say you have a 60-mile commute. In that case you'd be using gasoline for driving about 30 miles each day, so you'd be fueling up regularly. In an Edmunds test of a Volt with the battery pack depleted, the car averaged 31.4 mpg in mixed driving. This isn't a bad mileage figure compared to regular gas vehicles, but it is seriously subpar when compared to the mid-40s mpg that a standard hybrid typically provides.'

From this paragraph, for drives that go beyond a full battery charge range, the battery appears to save the equivalent of about one gallon of gas.

The home charging station is a separate cost from the price of the car if you want the convenience of 240v quick charging (3-4 hours). Standard 120v charging is an option with about 11-12 hours charge times.

Per AutomobileMag.com

'SPX estimates the typical installation will cost $1475. The 240-volt cord set will cost $490. Nissan’s charging partner, Aerovironment, provides a similar service to Leaf drivers and says its typical installation is about $235 more at $2200 including the hardware. Both companies acknowledge, though, that every installation is different and many customers will pay more or less than their average.'

http://www.automobilemag.com/green/news/1010_2011_chevrolet_volt_home_charging_station_ins tall/index.html

As far as government subsidies go, check out this report from: http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/21/govt-subsidies-for-chevy-volt-up-to-250000-per-car/

'Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html) by the federal government. …
GM has estimated they’ve sold 6,000 Volts (http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/01/gm-willing-to-buy-back-volts/) so far. That would mean each of the 6,000 Volts sold would be subsidized between $50,000 and $250,000, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized.
If battery manufacturers awarded incentives to produce batteries the Volt may use are included in the analysis, the potential government subsidy per Volt increases to $256,824. For example, A123 Systems has received extensive state and federal support, and bid to be a supplier to the Volt, but the deal instead went to Compact Power. The $256,824 figure includes adding up the subsidies to both companies.
The $3 billion total subsidy figure includes $690.4 million offered by the state of Michigan and $2.3 billion in federal money. That’s enough to purchase 75,222 Volts with a sticker price of $39,828 (http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Volt/).'

[Bob Denman]

Per AutomobileMag.com

'SPX estimates the typical installation will cost $1475. The 240-volt cord set will cost $490. Nissan’s charging partner, Aerovironment, provides a similar service to Leaf drivers and says its typical installation is about $235 more at $2200 including the hardware. Both companies acknowledge, though, that every installation is different and many customers will pay more or less than their average.'

That's a lot of green for the priviledge of going green... :shocked: :gaah:

[zrc]

At CES this year the powermat people for your cell phone are working on a BIG @$$ mat for your garage and your car, I bet is more than 2200.

[spyder3]

Our debt is larger then our entire economy. Is this really the time to abandon fossil fuels and throw money at green companies randomly? A change over to "green technology" should be done from a position of strength, not weakness with a moderate approach. We could blow the Middle east out of the water with our own resources and countries lkie iran won't be worried about having nuclear weapons, they would not be able to afford them.

That being said, i am an associate for a green energy company that brings 20% -100% renewable energy alternatives to homes and business in NJ , Pa, NJ, Conn, Md & IL where people actually save money on there electricity & gas bills do to deregulation. The difference is it doesn't cost you anything to change suppliers and its based off wind energy being generated already in place.

Instead of being force fed 40k cars a more deliberate approach will eventually get people moving in the right direction. Higher gas prices isn't going to make people think green, its going to wreck this dubious recovery as it is. JMHO

[Arr MiHardies]

Our debt is larger then our entire economy. Is this really the time to abandon fossil fuels and throw money at green companies randomly? A change over to "green technology" should be done from a position of strength, not weakness with a moderate approach.

There will always be some excuse not to do it. Our economy may not be as strong as it once was, but the real question is can we afford not to go green?

[spyder3]

There will always be some excuse not to do it. Our economy may not be as strong as it once was, but the real question is can we afford not to go green?

"not a strong as it once was" would be quite the understatement. And what i said wasn't really making an excuse since i'm all for it. I'm just against how its being done. This is a private sector matter, not our govt throwing money at companies and hoping it works. Not our govt denying the keystone pipeline with our friends to the north. This govt would rather keep the middle east or venezuela in business:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Campverdefela]

There will always be some excuse not to do it. Our economy may not be as strong as it once was, but the real question is can we afford not to go green?

Yes, when it means were going to bankrupt ourselves. Going green is good but we need to be smarter about it. The electric car is the cart before the horse mentality, the batteries should have been perfected first. Power plants in this country should be fueled by natural gas, we in the sunny states should have mandatory solar panels on all new home construction, and Congress and the Senate should get off their duffs and pass the oil pipeline, geez theirs already a dozen lines that cross the US, whats the problem?

[Firefly]

Firefly, I stand corrected. I was unaware it was a duel power source vehicle. It does have an 85.3 cubic inch engine. Here is a link to Edmunds review: http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2012/

From that report:
'If you have a 30-mile round-trip commute and you plug in your Volt every night when you get home (a full charge requires as few as 3 hours), give yourself a gold star. Your fuel economy would be infinite because you'd always be running off the battery pack and hence never use gas.

Now let's say you have a 60-mile commute. In that case you'd be using gasoline for driving about 30 miles each day, so you'd be fueling up regularly. In an Edmunds test of a Volt with the battery pack depleted, the car averaged 31.4 mpg in mixed driving. This isn't a bad mileage figure compared to regular gas vehicles, but it is seriously subpar when compared to the mid-40s mpg that a standard hybrid typically provides.'

From this paragraph, for drives that go beyond a full battery charge range, the battery appears to save the equivalent of about one gallon of gas.

The home charging station is a separate cost from the price of the car if you want the convenience of 240v quick charging (3-4 hours). Standard 120v charging is an option with about 11-12 hours charge times.

Per AutomobileMag.com

'SPX estimates the typical installation will cost $1475. The 240-volt cord set will cost $490. Nissan’s charging partner, Aerovironment, provides a similar service to Leaf drivers and says its typical installation is about $235 more at $2200 including the hardware. Both companies acknowledge, though, that every installation is different and many customers will pay more or less than their average.'

http://www.automobilemag.com/green/news/1010_2011_chevrolet_volt_home_charging_station_ins tall/index.html

As far as government subsidies go, check out this report from: http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/21/govt-subsidies-for-chevy-volt-up-to-250000-per-car/

'Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html) by the federal government. …
GM has estimated they’ve sold 6,000 Volts (http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/01/gm-willing-to-buy-back-volts/) so far. That would mean each of the 6,000 Volts sold would be subsidized between $50,000 and $250,000, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized.
If battery manufacturers awarded incentives to produce batteries the Volt may use are included in the analysis, the potential government subsidy per Volt increases to $256,824. For example, A123 Systems has received extensive state and federal support, and bid to be a supplier to the Volt, but the deal instead went to Compact Power. The $256,824 figure includes adding up the subsidies to both companies.
The $3 billion total subsidy figure includes $690.4 million offered by the state of Michigan and $2.3 billion in federal money. That’s enough to purchase 75,222 Volts with a sticker price of $39,828 (http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Volt/).'

My daily commute to work is 14 miles round trip-- the average in America is 32 miles round trip... so many, many Americans could drive to work without ever using any gas.

The $250,000 subsidies math is totally flawed. To take ONE year of Volt sales and divide it by the initial investment is just silly - no company works like this. Investment in anything is always a larger upfront cost.

We just built a new high school in our town ---- for $60 Million dollars. The school has 2,000 students. So using the above 'logic', that school cost us $30,000 per student! Doesn't work..... the school will be used for a good 30 years.....so you'd really have to divide out the investment over the 30 years... just like any return on investment is done.

The Volt is no different. Over time the original investments (subsidies) get divided out into all of the various years of production and all the various technologies that will spill over into other vehicles, etc.....

[Firefly]

Our debt is larger then our entire economy. Is this really the time to abandon fossil fuels and throw money at green companies randomly? A change over to "green technology" should be done from a position of strength, not weakness with a moderate approach. We could blow the Middle east out of the water with our own resources and countries lkie iran won't be worried about having nuclear weapons, they would not be able to afford them.

That being said, i am an associate for a green energy company that brings 20% -100% renewable energy alternatives to homes and business in NJ , Pa, NJ, Conn, Md & IL where people actually save money on there electricity & gas bills do to deregulation. The difference is it doesn't cost you anything to change suppliers and its based off wind energy being generated already in place.

Instead of being force fed 40k cars a more deliberate approach will eventually get people moving in the right direction. Higher gas prices isn't going to make people think green, its going to wreck this dubious recovery as it is. JMHO


Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but our debt isn't larger than our entire economy..... it just became almost equal to it. Also realize that about 60% of that debt is money we owe to our self.... nothing more than on paper.

I think NOW is the time to invest in the future technology.... if we don't.... China will beat us to it.

[spyder3]

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but our debt isn't larger than our entire economy..... it just became almost equal to it. Also realize that about 60% of that debt is money we owe to our self.... nothing more than on paper.

I think NOW is the time to invest in the future technology.... if we don't.... China will beat us to it.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

We borrow 42 cents on the dollar from china to pay our bills, where we could be exporting our resources to china(and everywhere else) whose consumption levels are increasing dramatically. We are dependent on to many other countries instead of them being dependent on us. China will beat us to what? We already can't compete on solar panels.
"Also realize that about 60% of that debt is money we owe to our self.... nothing more than on paper." :yikes::banghead:

[Firefly]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

We borrow 42 cents on the dollar from china to pay our bills, where we could be exporting our resources to china(and everywhere else) whose consumption levels are increasing dramatically. We are dependent on to many other countries instead of them being dependent on us. China will beat us to what? We already can't compete on solar panels.
"Also realize that about 60% of that debt is money we owe to our self.... nothing more than on paper." :yikes::banghead:

Maybe this article and charts can explain things better than I can. Hopefully this can clear it up for you.....actually my 60% number is probably on the low end of debt we owe ourselves.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/debt-is-mostly-money-we-owe-to-ourselves/

The total amount makes no difference... the number will always rise... it's the % of GDP that matters.......

[spyder3]

Maybe this article and charts can explain things better than I can. Hopefully this can clear it up for you.....actually my 60% number is probably on the low end of debt we owe ourselves.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/debt-is-mostly-money-we-owe-to-ourselves/

The total amount makes no difference... the number will always rise... it's the % of GDP that matters.......

"The Conscience of a Liberal" :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

"That’s not to say that high debt can’t cause problems — it certainly can"

When even a left wing hack like klugman actually throws in a sentence that high debt can cause problems you KNOW there is a problem. If this guy and the NY times is your info source, we better stop now.

China is buying our debt, thats not paper, thats debt! We owe it back!

Klugman(and you) are the only people on the planet that think our debt is ok. Take a look at greece, we could be them in 4 years or less.

We should probably end here, as this will go political shortly. We just don't live on the same planet.:banghead:

[ARtraveler]

Very interisting points and counterpoints with a lot of valuable information. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[boborgera]

I look at it a different way, The more we owe China the less inclined they'll be to start a war with us.
It.s like lending your Brother in law money, You have to be nice to him if you have any hopes of getting your money back;:roflblack::roflblack:

[MarkLawson]

...The total amount makes no difference... the number will always rise... it's the % of GDP that matters.......

Do you run your own household budget on that philosophy?

The higher our debt, the more of our taxes goes to pay the interest on it.

At $15 trillion of debt, if you added nothing more to it, not even interest, paying at a rate of $100,000,000 (one hundred million dollars) every day against that debt, it will take 410 years, 11.5 months to pay it off.

We simply cannot continue adding to our debt.

[SpyderGirl]

Well, when I got on here to look up information on putting a gas door on the RT, I didn't think I would find this thread. There was a lot said and I am sure I cannot address everything, but I am going try. But before I do, let me say that I am in love with my Chevrolet Volt and do not regret making the purchase.


The only people who buy Electric / Hybrid cars Are people who can afford the high price of gas'.
Think about it, With the extra cost of those cars you can buy years worth of gas for the average car.

FALSE. I bought the Volt because I was finding myself paying $50 per week in gas in my fairly fuel efficient Chevrolet HHR. I now spend about $50 a month in gas in my Chevrolet Volt.


I read that GM was just going to halt production until April 23rd to allow dealerships to sell existing inventory. There not moving to quick because of the high price. $41K !! :yikes:

High price??? Compare this to other cars that get similar results and you will find that it is priced about the same, or less. The plug-in hybrid Prius only goes 11 miles on electric only and it's fuel economy is only marginally better than the standard Prius. Price tag of this option is not much less than the Volt which can go 30-40 miles on electric only. Also, compare the Volt to the 2013 Ford Focus electric to be released with the same price tag.


As for being a failure... I'll let Spydergirl address that. She posted a odometer photo on Facebook last week showing she was getting around 250 mpg in her Volt. That sounds like pretty darned good incentive to buy one to me. The whole hold back is the out the door price. I would agree though that given the tax payer bailout of these companies, they should repay the American people by making their vehicles actually cost less... Regardless of technological sophistication...

We have been driving 65/45 (electric/gas) and have been averaging just shy of 90MG over the life of the car. In addition to saving in the cost of fuel, you save in the cost of maintenance as the Volt does have a gasoline motor that powers the generator. Translation: only 45% of the miles we currently have on the car were using the gas motor which means far less maintenance to the gas motor (oil and filter changes). Additionally, the Chevrolet Volt does not have a transmission. So no maintenance is required there. I also learned yesterday that the Volt has the Spyder equivalent of VSS with it's independent regenerative braking system.

Want more incentives to purchase a car like the Volt or the Leaf?? If you live in California especially, there are TONS of them. In my area the company SPX offers to homeowners one free residential ChargePoint 240v charging station that allows the car to charge in just a mere 4 hours allowing the car to be charged completely during off-peak hours (midnight to 9AM for those who work typical hours during the day). In addition, SPX has up to $1,200 in an instant installation charger rebate. We are getting our unit installed at no cost to us.


Plugging the car into the power grid to recharge still uses fossil fuels--just not in the car.

Who is paying for the electricity when they are plugging in away from home? I would not be to happy if I looked out and saw an extension cord from someones car plugged into my power outlet.

The Volt doesn't really charge very well using an extension cord, not to mention it's highly dangerous to do so. Anyone with a brain would know better.


I, for one, am into the technology of this vehicle, but agree that there are some practical considerations that pose major drawbacks for this design. First, you have got to get the power from somewhere, interested to know how much a person's electric bill goes up when you charge this thing every night. Second, how long will the battery last, and what are the implications of 10s or thousands of junked batteries in junk yards? I own a Tahoe hybrid, and get s--t from my friends all the time for being an idiot for paying more for the hybrid. I have 57,000 trouble free miles and based on my calculations when compared to a similarly powered Tahoe, I have about a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency, that has made up the price difference, but certainly isn't any huge benefit. I would prefer a hybrid to the all electrics myself, the volt is somewhere in between with a small gas powered engine that can generate electricity. If I were in the market right now for that sized vehicle, I would go with a Prius, or a diesel.

First of all, the Prius and yoru Tahoe hybrid has a battery in case you didn't know. Second of all, the Chevrolet Volt comes with an 8 year / 80,000 mile warranty that covers the replacement of the Volt's battery. The Volt isn't all electric, it's a plug-in electric hybrid. And did I mention it looks way cooler than a Prius or a Leaf. :)


A full charge of the Volt costs anywhere from .75 to 1.75 from what I've read... with most saying they pay far less than $1.00 a day to top it off. I'm sure they have a recycling program for the batteries. One of the new hybrids has a 10 year guarantee on the batteries... they'll replace them as many times as you need them to should they degrade.

We are spending far less on our electric bill with our Volt as compared to when my mother-in-law was living with us. It costs us about 6 cents a mile in electricity. It's cheaper than heating our hot tub.

That's a lot of green for the priviledge of going green... :shocked: :gaah:

That's why they have tons of differnent kinds of vehicles. Not everyone can afford, or wants to afford the same car. And not everyone wants to drive what everyone else has. I dare to be different, and like I said, I love my Volt and just as I get hate from my Harley neighbor about my "training wheels", I just call it ENVY. :)

[rnet]

"The Conscience of a Liberal" :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

"That’s not to say that high debt can’t cause problems — it certainly can"

When even a left wing hack like klugman actually throws in a sentence that high debt can cause problems you KNOW there is a problem. If this guy and the NY times is your info source, we better stop now.

China is buying our debt, thats not paper, thats debt! We owe it back!

Klugman(and you) are the only people on the planet that think our debt is ok. Take a look at greece, we could be them in 4 years or less.

We should probably end here, as this will go political shortly. We just don't live on the same planet.:banghead: You must always consider the source and I see that you have. I dropped out of the conversation a page ago.

[Firefly]

Thanks for chiming in SpyderGirl...... glad you're enjoying your new Volt. I wonder if people will be so quick to judge the Hybrid Spyder once they hit the market....:rolleyes:

---------------------

Pertaining to all the other discussions this led to, differing opinions abound and there's no changing some minds no matter how much you try or how many facts you present....it's just not worth the trouble....:banghead:

[SpyderGirl]

Thanks for chiming in SpyderGirl...... glad you're enjoying your new Volt. I wonder if people will be so quick to judge the Hybrid Spyder once they hit the market....:rolleyes:

They are just (un)GREEN with envy. LOL

[Bob Denman]

Or perhaps just watching with interest to see if the necessary infrastructures can be put into place so that viable alternatives can exist... :dontknow:
I don't know if excess capacity exists in the powerplants of our Country; but I'd bet against it at this time...

Alternatives?? Has anybody developed a vehicle yet that is uses electirc motors in the hubs for movement? You could have either 2 or 4; depending on what you're moving... A very small gas or diesel engine could be used SOLELY to spin enough alternators to provide the juice to those motors. You'd have cooling issues for the alternators; maybe liquid-coll them and plumb them into an oversized cooling system for the small engine that spins them...
You wouldn't need to carry as much storage capacity, so batteries wouldn't be such a burden either! :thumbup:
That's my un-informed and un-engineering opinion... and not even worth two cents! :gaah: :roflblack:

[ARtraveler]

Can't wait till they come out with the hybrid spyder! I have already expressed an opinion on that--so will get out of this discussion. :roflblack:

[jerpinoy]

A lots of people experimenting HHO Hydrogen generators and produce hydrogen out of water into cars and trucks and claim 200 miles mph. You tube have many entries. Check them out. Don't get mad about pricy gas do something. We can do it.