Lemon Law

[elpaso]

Has any owner filed a lemon law claim as to date? My roadster has been in the shop 18 times, 2 for maintenance. Number of days in shop = over 35.

[acinpcola]

you need to check the lemon law in your state, I believe that if you take a auto in for the same problem and the dealership has done everything possible to fix the problem, then you can file a lemon law and go in to arbitration procedures with the dealership.

Be Safe
AC:spyder2:

[BikerDoc]

In many states lemon laws do not apply to motorcycles so that is step one to check..

[jgwoods]

http://www.txdmv.gov/protection/lemon_law.htm according to TX information the laws may work for you.

Good luck, and lighting a fire under them may be a big help.

[ARtraveler]

In looking back at your previous posts--you have a long list of complaints. Some of this sounds like it could be bad dealer set up issues.

Perhaps members from your area will give you some good ideas as to where the best place for service is.

Barring set up issues--keep us posted.

[elpaso]

In looking back at your previous posts--you have a long list of complaints. Some of this sounds like it could be bad dealer set up issues.

Perhaps members from your area will give you some good ideas as to where the best place for service is.

Barring set up issues--keep us posted.


Thanks, I bought in Santa Teresa New Mexico which is adjacent to El Paso, so it would be the lemon law in New Mexico. There is a dealerhip in Las Cruces, 40 miles away, but owned by sameone I bought from. Next one is 4 hours away.

[boborgera]

Has any owner filed a lemon law claim as to date? My roadster has been in the shop 18 times, 2 for maintenance. Number of days in shop = over 35.

If your going to have a Lawyer contact BRP, Make sure your Spyder is out of the shop and in your hand'snojoke

[Bob Denman]

:agree: :thumbup:

[Wardawg]

Has any owner filed a lemon law claim as to date? My roadster has been in the shop 18 times, 2 for maintenance. Number of days in shop = over 35.

Same boat....it sucks have the same issue. Good luck!

[boborgera]

Same boat....it sucks have the same issue. Good luck!

There have been a few, You'll have to do a search, Or maybe some one with more info will chime in??
Also look at my previous post.

[MouthPiece]

Has any owner filed a lemon law claim as to date? My roadster has been in the shop 18 times, 2 for maintenance. Number of days in shop = over 35.

Before you go running off hiring a lawyer and probably screwing things up more, did you read my reply to your "OTHER POST" regarding the limp mode issue? If not, then I will copy and paste as follows:

2010 RT-S
15,000 trouble free miles

ISSUE Started going into limp mode several times.

FIX After replacing DPS, sensors,etc., still went into limp mode.
Then wiring harness which extends length of spyder replaced.

RESULT 4,000 trouble free miles

Since my above post to you, my trouble free miles are now 5,000.
You might suggest this fix to your dealer. Your symptoms were exactly as mine.

Chris

[canam9]

http://www.txdmv.gov/protection/lemon_law.htm according to TX information the laws may work for you.

Good luck, and lighting a fire under them may be a big help.
You have just got to love Texas ! :ani29:

[AMTJIM]

I know of that Mesa/Country Club location, suprised Mr. Motorcycle still hasn't made an attempt to sell these. They are very familiar with performance. Any growing population of Spyders in E.P. yet? Anyways, I had to Lemon Law my first Spyder(here in AZ) so try go through that state link someone posted before looking into federal. Maybe give it one more chance to get it fixed with that information MouthPiece/Chris posted that corrected his. I never found out what plagued my first, but this second one I own is ridiculously better. Not sure how familiar your location is with T/S spyders, but these are no longer the new kid on the block and the experience and data is out there. There is only so much wiring and computers, it's all modular and preterminated. It can be corrected, the dealer just needs to research, work and fix it, not just collect warranty fees from BRP. I can understand your feelings and the ying/yang of it, but these have been around to long now, excuses have expired for these dealerships.

[elpaso]

Yes I did read your post and I did read your suggestion and advised my dealer of same and he contacted BRP to see if they would do the replacement. BRP advised the dealer that they were not willing to do that without any proof that that was the issue.






Before you go running off hiring a lawyer and probably screwing things up more, did you read my reply to your "OTHER POST" regarding the limp mode issue? If not, then I will copy and paste as follows:
2010 RT-S
15,000 trouble free miles

ISSUE Started going into limp mode several times.

FIX After replacing DPS, sensors,etc., still went into limp mode.
Then wiring harness which extends length of spyder replaced.

RESULT 4,000 trouble free miles

Since my above post to you, my trouble free miles are now 5,000.
You might suggest this fix to your dealer. Your symptoms were exactly as mine.

Chris

[MouthPiece]

Yes I did read your post and I did read your suggestion and advised my dealer of same and he contacted BRP to see if they would do the replacement. BRP advised the dealer that they were not willing to do that without any proof that that was the issue.

The "proof" was my dealer working in collaboration with the BRP tech, and working through the "BUD" codes through a process of elimination. (if that makes sense).

Chris

[elpaso]

The "proof" was my dealer working in collaboration with the BRP tech, and working through the "BUD" codes through a process of elimination. (if that makes sense).

Chris


Dealer replaced oil switch and wires that lead away from oil switch. Dealer tested, got a an error code on DPS. Next is to check steering sensor and replace if necessary. If that does not work, then dealer going to ask BRP to replace Brain , EMC and then the wire harness if that .does not work. oh, I got some codes that keep showing up, Brp says that they are ghost codes and not toworry about them, one being Limp mode.

[NancysToy]

Dealer replaced oil switch and wires that lead away from oil switch. Dealer tested, got a an error code on DPS. Next is to check steering sensor and replace if necessary. If that does not work, then dealer going to ask BRP to replace Brain , EMC and then the wire harness if that .does not work. oh, I got some codes that keep showing up, Brp says that they are ghost codes and not toworry about them, one being Limp mode.
I went through some of this "Ghost Code" rhetoric. That is about as irresponsible as anything a technician could ever say. Warnings are there for a reason, and should never be ignored...especially under orders from the manufacturer! I'll bet BRP would not be as sympathetic if your engine blew due to low oil pressure, when you ignored the warning as they suggested. What a bunch of BS!

Warnings and fault codes that appear, whether for valid reasons or spontaneously, should be corrected. We are expected to respond to those warnings...and dealers should be prepared to fix them...whether for just cause or not. Codes that trigger limp mode can be dangerous. Having your speed suddenly drop drastically while on the highway in traffic, can kill you! I hope your dealer continues to chase this problem for you, and gets it corrected ASAP. Don't take anything but perfection for an answer. If they have to hire an exorcist to chase out the "ghosts", so be it. It should be their problem, not yours.

[jgwoods]

Invoking the Lemon Law is a fairly formal process. I can't speak to the Texas or new Mexico lemon laws but I have experience as a service manager in MA and the workings of the lemon laws here, although it was fairly long ago.

As a service manager I would be frustrated ( because I couldn't fix it), and flabbergasted( that you took it all so well) and that you had not already taken the necessary steps to return your vehicle and walk away. In MA the dealer gets 3 tries to fix a "substantial impairment", something that leaves you stuck or endangers you- I am guessing here but I think your problem qualifies.

It is up to the customer to begin the formal proceedings and notify the dealer that a lemon law case is being started. The dealership alone will just keep on trying to fix your vehicle 5-10-15 times even though the law says 3 tries and you're out.

I had a customer with two breakdowns that left them stuck and they started the lemon law proceedings and informed us of it. We contacted the manufacturer and they sent their top area rep and technical wiz to the dealership to go over the vehicle. They wanted to see if we had screwed it up, they wanted to see if everything was done in accordance with their prescribed diagnostic systems, and in the end they took the customer aside and offered him a trade for a new vehicle that was attractive enough so he took it and drove away in a new car. That left the manufacturer with a used car, but not a lemon, as the 3 strikes had not happened. They wholesaled it and I never saw it again so I can't say as to whether some other poor sucker got stuck with a lot of trouble- probably so.

If you have 15 repair orders - legal documents- that detail a substantial impairment then surely you have enough ammunition to go forward with a case.
What usually happens is that the repair orders don't clearly state what was wrong or what was repaired. Often on a come back they don't write one so there is no way to make a claim, and so it goes...when the claimant tries to make a case the paper trail isn't good enough and the problem doesn't get resolved to anyone's satisfaction. the customer is unhappy, the dealer has a black eye, the manufacturer gets badmouthed at cocktail parties- and on the internet.

I don't want to offend any one but it's kind of put up or shut up on this problem. The lemon law was put in place to protect the consumer, but the consumer must act to make the law effective.

[a99miata]

I know the Lemon Law does not apply to motorcycles in Florida. :(

[Lamonster]

I went through some of this "Ghost Code" rhetoric. That is about as irresponsible as anything a technician could ever say. Warnings are there for a reason, and should never be ignored...especially under orders from the manufacturer! I'll bet BRP would not be as sympathetic if your engine blew due to low oil pressure, when you ignored the warning as they suggested. What a bunch of BS!

Warnings and fault codes that appear, whether for valid reasons or spontaneously, should be corrected. We are expected to respond to those warnings...and dealers should be prepared to fix them...whether for just cause or not. Codes that trigger limp mode can be dangerous. Having your speed suddenly drop drastically while on the highway in traffic, can kill you! I hope your dealer continues to chase this problem for you, and gets it corrected ASAP. Don't take anything but perfection for an answer. If they have to hire an exorcist to chase out the "ghosts", so be it. It should be their problem, not yours.As you know a low battery can throw all sorts of "ghost codes" that have nothing to do with an actual problem other than a low battery. Those codes would show up on buds as occurred faults but would have nothing to do with a real problem so there is a reason a tech or BRP could say that and be valid.

[NancysToy]

As you know a low battery can throw all sorts of "ghost codes" that have nothing to do with an actual problem other than a low battery. Those codes would show up on buds as occurred faults but would have nothing to do with a real problem so there is a reason a tech or BRP could say that and be valid.
Perhaps I should have phrased this better. What I mean is that it is irresponsible for a technician to either fail to explain very thoroughly, or to fail to fix (or even search for) the problem. Looking for a low battery would certainly be a good approach. No customer should be told to just ignore warning codes and continue to ride. If the tech has no idea of the cause, he might explain that he can't find it, and for the customer to bring it in if it occurs again...but he should never say to merely ignore it. If it is important enough to generate a warning, it should be important enough to respond to. If it is not that important, it should not generate a warning.

A case in point is the "ghost" low oil pressure warnings that occur on the RT sometimes after oil changes. First advice..."Just ignore it and ride it a while." Sorry, that goes completely against what the oil pressure warning is there for! The work-around is actually to run the engine above 3,500 rpm for 15-20 seconds. If that doesn't cure it, it should be shut off and thoroughly diagnosed. It would be far better to find and fix the programming error, but the work-around would be OK if explained thoroughly, and if the owner was told when the warning should not be ignored...going down the road, repeated occurances, or accompanied by engine noises. This is one case where simple is not better.

[Lamonster]

Perhaps I should have phrased this better. What I mean is that it is irresponsible for a technician to either fail to explain very thoroughly, or to fail to fix (or even search for) the problem. Looking for a low battery would certainly be a good approach. No customer should be told to just ignore warning codes and continue to ride. If the tech has no idea of the cause, he might explain that he can't find it, and for the customer to bring it in if it occurs again...but he should never say to merely ignore it. If it is important enough to generate a warning, it should be important enough to respond to. If it is not that important, it should not generate a warning.

A case in point is the "ghost" low oil pressure warnings that occur on the RT sometimes after oil changes. First advice..."Just ignore it and ride it a while." Sorry, that goes completely against what the oil pressure warning is there for! The work-around is actually to run the engine above 3,500 rpm for 15-20 seconds. If that doesn't cure it, it should be shut off and thoroughly diagnosed. It would be far better to find and fix the programming error, but the work-around would be OK if explained thoroughly, and if the owner was told when the warning should not be ignored...going down the road, repeated occurances, or accompanied by engine noises. This is one case where simple is not better.
The real problem as I see it is this thing throws way too many codes that aren't real to start with. To me the "limp home" thing may have seemed like a good idea to someone but I have yet to see where this is going to help anyone including BRP. What good is it really? You could argue that it will save the motor or whatever from further damage but we have gone a long time without a "limp home" mode and done just fine by watching our gauges. I would like to see them get rid of the "limp home" mode altogether and just shut the thing down if there's a real problem. Maybe this is a case of TMI [too much information]

[Y Rider]

The real problem as I see it is this thing throws way too many codes that aren't real to start with. To me the "limp home" thing may have seemed like a good idea to someone but I have yet to see where this is going to help anyone including BRP. What good is it really? You could argue that it will save the motor or whatever from further damage but we have gone a long time without a "limp home" mode and done just fine by watching our gauges. I would like to see them get rid of the "limp home" mode altogether and just shut the thing down if there's a real problem. Maybe this is a case of TMI [too much information]

:agree: I'm with you on this one 100%. The Nanny is way over protective.

[Bob Denman]

Even if it's a "ghost" that peed in the pudding, it still shows that something isn't quite up to snuff and needs addressing... A loose battery connection is still a problem when it shuts your bike down. Perhaps the systems are both too sophisticated and too simple at the same time... It knows that something's wrong, but can't adequately determine what it is, so it sets off the fire alarm instead of just a gentle nudge to the shoulder...:shocked:
So... Does New Mexico recognize motorcycles as being subject to Lemon Laws or not?

[ARtraveler]

I am also in favor of getting rid of the limp home mode. It is scarry when it kicks in--and does not always happen because something drastic is going on with the :spyder2:.

TMI is a good category for it.

[NancysToy]

The real problem as I see it is this thing throws way too many codes that aren't real to start with. To me the "limp home" thing may have seemed like a good idea to someone but I have yet to see where this is going to help anyone including BRP. What good is it really? You could argue that it will save the motor or whatever from further damage but we have gone a long time without a "limp home" mode and done just fine by watching our gauges. I would like to see them get rid of the "limp home" mode altogether and just shut the thing down if there's a real problem. Maybe this is a case of TMI [too much information]
I think TMI summarizes it pretty well. I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but I can understand their thinking for some things, like a transmission, brake, or steering malfunction. Shutting it off would be even more dangerous. Imagine the thrill of that while you were cruising at 80! :yikes: Besides, shutting it down due to the "ghost" codes would be even more frustrating. There has to be a happy medium, I hope they find it someday.

[Bob Denman]

Give them some time and they'll smooth out the rough edges... :thumbup:

[MouthPiece]

And then there are idiots like I who would not realize there was a problem.

Chris

[elpaso]

As you know a low battery can throw all sorts of "ghost codes" that have nothing to do with an actual problem other than a low battery. Those codes would show up on buds as occurred faults but would have nothing to do with a real problem so there is a reason a tech or BRP could say that and be valid.


Yes I agree. That was one of the first things that BRP suggested was to check the battery. Dealer checked it out, it was charged to max.

[elpaso]

Even if it's a "ghost" that peed in the pudding, it still shows that something isn't quite up to snuff and needs addressing... A loose battery connection is still a problem when it shuts your bike down. Perhaps the systems are both too sophisticated and too simple at the same time... It knows that something's wrong, but can't adequately determine what it is, so it sets off the fire alarm instead of just a gentle nudge to the shoulder...:shocked:
So... Does New Mexico recognize motorcycles as being subject to Lemon Laws or not?


Yes it does.

[elpaso]

Give them some time and they'll smooth out the rough edges... :thumbup:

Thats all well and good, but taking it in every 3 to 4 weeks to reset the error codes is not how I want to spend my weekends.

[Bob Denman]

"Patience is a virtue that none of us can wait to acquire..." Something is obviously not quite right, and your dealer is mindlessly plugging it in and finding nothing... :shocked: They need to actually LOOK for the problem.
My Missus hit on a good point last night over dinner. (We've got to have SOMETHING to discuss!)
If you think that Can Am is alone with this problem; try leaving the gas cap on your car loose and see what happens... Even they haven't got that one worked out well-enough yet to simply tell you to go tighten it up!

[zeebill]

[QUOTE=Bob Denman;366048]Give them some time and they'll smooth out the rough edges... :thumbup:[/QUOTE


You know what Bob I have been listening to that since I bought the first Spyder almost 5 years ago! What the heck do they need to wake them up? A couple of multi-million dollar law suits?

Scotty I wasn't doing 80 MPH but I was in the left lane at 75MPH passing someone when the thing went into limp mode once. The only thing that saved me was there was no one behind me real close when it took place. This was with the first spyder which eventually ate 3 oil pressure remote switches. The 3rd one left me in Klamath, Oregon in permanent limp mode. Because of the lack of a decent and experienced dealer service system I had to chose a U-haul and bring the thing home that way to West Virginia.

Sure Lamont get rid of limp mode and just make the thing stop dead. If they had done that I would be dead and have stopped dead on the road 2 dozen or more times. They need to back off on the computer a bit and get more down to basics of keeping it safe and reliable for not just a motorhead but a normal consumer. I will say one thing my now present RT has only gone into limp mode about 5 times or less. The first one it was and endless battle, this one is far less of a battle.

When you get a bunch of seemingly endless questions about reoccuring problems and Lemon Laws they have a problem which they are not admitting or addressing properly. I don't care what you paint it like it is Corporate irresponsibility and greed for profits. If you haven't had any problems count yourself lucky and for Gods Sake stop telling those that do it is something they are doing wrong. Bill

[Lamonster]

Sure Lamont get rid of limp mode and just make the thing stop dead. If they had done that I would be dead and have stopped dead on the road 2 dozen or more times. They need to back off on the computer a bit and get more down to basics of keeping it safe and reliable for not just a motorhead but a normal consumer. I will say one thing my now present RT has only gone into limp mode about 5 times or less. The first one it was and endless battle, this one is far less of a battle.

I didn't say shut it down while you were moving did I? If there is a problem don't let it start and if the problem happens while you're driving it then when you go to start it the next time shut it down. I had a limp home mode kick in on my last trip to the west coast on the RT and I was in a turn passing a truck going down hill. There was no reason for it to do that and when I parked and made some phone calls in the middle of nowhere it just fixed itself, no rime or reason, that's what I'm talking about getting rid of.

[Bob Denman]

Hold on just a second Bill...
Believe it or not; I am on your side... As I recall it; I felt that any issue that sets off the "fire alarms" needs to be addressed. When a dealer just hooks it up to BUDS and can't find anything so they send you on your un-Merry way; they've done you a dis-service! Hold their feet to the fire and tell them to actually take a look under the Tupperware and FIND the problem!
The problem is that it takes time, money and manpower that a dealer alone may not be albe to absorb; tell them to have BRP send a tech guy down with his equipment then.
And all of this does require a little bit of patience on the part of the poor guy who's making the payments or not getting to ride his Spyder...

[elpaso]

Hold on just a second Bill...
Believe it or not; I am on your side... As I recall it; I felt that any issue that sets off the "fire alarms" needs to be addressed. When a dealer just hooks it up to BUDS and can't find anything so they send you on your un-Merry way; they've done you a dis-service! Hold their feet to the fire and tell them to actually take a look under the Tupperware and FIND the problem!
The problem is that it takes time, money and manpower that a dealer alone may not be albe to absorb; tell them to have BRP send a tech guy down with his equipment then.
And all of this does require a little bit of patience on the part of the poor guy who's making the payments or not getting to ride his Spyder...


Yesterday they replaced the steering sensor ; took it out for test today at 3 pm, already 5 in Canada, of couse it failed. Dealer closed Monday they will call BRP tuesday. By
the time we replace every part they could have just given me a new one. They are talking about replacing the brain and the wireing harness next. WILL SEE.