Tuning the JB Pro w/Wideband Air/Fuel Gauge

[vtspyder]

Hey everyone! I wanted to share my experience to date with tuning the JB Pro with an "Air/Fuel" Gauge. There is virtually zero info about how to go about doing this and I believe the JB Pro shines when paired with a good wide band AFR Gauge. It is virtually impossible to get an accurate tune without either a Dyno or an Air/Fuel Gauge. I cover installing the wide band O2 sensor as well and offer tips to make it a breeze. I'm getting 36mpg with ferocious acceleration. I am still working on a custom map and will be developing better parameters in the 5000 to red line range. Low to mid is pretty much complete. Please keep in mind I have a custom built air box with a 3" pipe to a high flow K&N filter and cold air supply. It flows substantially more air than the stock air box. Especially at speed.

1st I began with the JB set to map 3.
2nd I increased the mapping 30% across the board
3rd I used the AF Gauge to tweak the settings + or - at each throttle position and rpm based upon what I was seeing on the gauge for that range.

The Spyder has a stock AFR of 14.7:1 and the Juice Box Pro has a target AFR of 13.6:1
The major benefit to the gauge is that you know when and where in the spectrum you are running a lean or rich condition. Also keep in mind that the Spyder's ECM seems to do a good job of compensating in the upper rpm ranges so a little change can go a long way.

I hope this helps answer some questions about the JB Pro. Even 2 Brothers doesn't have a clue and they sell the stupid thing!:dontknow:

Video Link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAy1xVLYYyc&feature=channel_video_title

[ArmyJoe]

3600 RPM at 50 MPH in 5th gear? The general consensus is that we should still be in 4th gear, so I look forward to the discussion on that.

[lonnibdd]

bravo bravo you are very correct. In that there is a bad spot in that rpm range i have had the same problem for a year now and took off jb regular sent it back and they sent me a brand new one and i am selling it to get a power commander. I have the same two bros pipe and same situation with missing. and it is crazy running around at 5g to ride around the problem. I am going to go the dyno way i believe just dont have the money to spend on gauge right now. Buddy runs a dyno so again VERY NICE VIDEO. Thanks for posting. Bill Taylor. Conneaut Ohio

[vtspyder]

bravo bravo you are very correct. In that there is a bad spot in that rpm range i have had the same problem for a year now and took off jb regular sent it back and they sent me a brand new one and i am selling it to get a power commander. I have the same two bros pipe and same situation with missing. and it is crazy running around at 5g to ride around the problem. I am going to go the dyno way i believe just dont have the money to spend on gauge right now. Buddy runs a dyno so again VERY NICE VIDEO. Thanks for posting. Bill Taylor. Conneaut Ohio
A Dyno sure would be nice and you are VERY fortunate to have access to that. I listen to music a lot and extended cruising at 5000 rpm is rediculous. I like the music at a low volume so I can here what's going on around me. It's nice to know the power is there at any rpm range and all I have to do is stomp it down. Cruising 20+ miles sustained at 5000 rpm between Manchester to Rutland is just nuts. I know highway cruising is a different thing.
From what I've been able to figure out, the ECM must have a hickup in that 3500rpm range in the programming. I can also verify it is a "Lean" condition. By adding fuel at that specific rpm range and throttle position I have eliminated it and improved the drivability in town where "smooth" is good. I have also eliminated some popping on deceleration because of the pinpoint accuracy of the gauge. Isn't technology "grand"?:yes:

[dave01]

Great video. I used the LM-2 portable wide band meter for the rt, but I think I will go with a permanent kit. Another trick I used was my go-pro mounted so I could make a video of me riding and I could narrate throttle position ( approx) and AF reading. Now I am thinking about the notebook running while ryding and video of it and meter at the same time so I can go back when at home to do the tweaking in the air conditioning. Thanks again, now I have more ideas. PS, I am running at/near 13.5-14.0 at cruising speed of 65 in 5th with no stutter and great fuel mileage.Time to send back and order a new AF guage

[vtspyder]

Great video. I used the LM-2 portable wide band meter for the rt, but I think I will go with a permanent kit. Another trick I used was my go-pro mounted so I could make a video of me riding and I could narrate throttle position ( approx) and AF reading. Now I am thinking about the notebook running while ryding and video of it and meter at the same time so I can go back when at home to do the tweaking in the air conditioning. Thanks again, now I have more ideas. PS, I am running at/near 13.5-14.0 at cruising speed of 65 in 5th with no stutter and great fuel mileage.Time to send back and order a new AF guage

LOL, I've been trying to figure out how to have the mini LT running as I'm driving. The Gauge has a log function too but would still need the throttle position reference. I use a helmet cam sometimes and yes, that is a great idea for a reference, visual with audio. I have been working on one specific range at a time because my feeble brain can't remember too many things at once!

Yes, I have found that is the perfect range for AFR for cruising. Great MPG's and not too lean for plenty of go juice for acceleration.

Man, now you've got me thinking about how to mount the LT to the dash and video tape it with the meter in the frame too. I could nail everything down in one shot. It would have to be at night though because the display(LT) isn't very bright.

[dave01]

Man, now you've got me thinking about how to mount the LT to the dash and video tape it with the meter in the frame too. I could nail everything down in one shot. It would have to be at night though because the display(LT) isn't very bright.[/QUOTE]

Between the 2 of us, we should be able to figure it out...LOL

[Firefly]

Thanks for the info-----

I just installed this AFR unit:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

The 'Powersports' version. I just installed it where the stock sensor was since I'm running the O2 mod.

This unit can also supply a narrow band signal should I decide not to run the o2 mod....

As I expected--- I've been running WAY rich......

[vtspyder]

Thanks for the info-----

I just installed this AFR unit:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

The 'Powersports' version. I just installed it where the stock sensor was since I'm running the O2 mod.

This unit can also supply a narrow band signal should I decide not to run the o2 mod....

As I expected--- I've been running WAY rich......

That's the exact same one I have! Nice gauge!

[vtspyder]

Does the JB Pro software allow individual tuning of cylinders? Is your sensor setup a true wideband, or does it just obtain input from splicing into the stock, narrow band sensor?

Sensor and gauge are true wideband. Same as the aerocharger setup for the spyder (Turbo). The bungs are too small to mount O2 sensors in the headpipes. I don't believe the Top Tune software allows for individual cylinder tuning. Besides, the JB Pro has only a single input for the O2 sensor which is narrow band. Hence the need for a wide band for tuning.

[vtspyder]

Man, now you've got me thinking about how to mount the LT to the dash and video tape it with the meter in the frame too. I could nail everything down in one shot. It would have to be at night though because the display(LT) isn't very bright.

Between the 2 of us, we should be able to figure it out...LOL[/QUOTE]

I'm counting on YOU Dave to come through on this one!:pray:

[Firefly]

That looks like a nice unit for the price. Have you considered alternately mounting the sensor in the bungs that are located in the individual headpipes, further upstream? It would be interesting to see if there are noticeable differences in AFR between the cylinders on a single sensor exhaust.......

I considered that - but building a setup to do that would have been much more expensive - and I wasn't as concerned considering the Spyder is water-cooled. Would be more important with an air-cooled I would think.

Wanted to keep it simple - and this unit does quite a bit for $200... just haven't had much time to play with it or the software it came with. My eventual goal is to replace the JB with either the JB pro or PC in order to dial things in better.

I was able to confirm that with running my o2 mod, the fuel pressure mod and the JB -I'm running very rich overall.

Install was really simple and from my research, Innovate seems to make pretty good units.

[Firefly]

That's the exact same one I have! Nice gauge!

I haven't watched yer whole video. Did you install yours where the stock one was and just use it's narrow-band signal or the o2 mod instead?

[vtspyder]

I haven't watched yer whole video. Did you install yours where the stock one was and just use it's narrow-band signal or the o2 mod instead?

Nope, removed the y pipes. Installed new honda gaskets. drilled the hole for a new bung for the WB sensor. Welded it on and good to go. Supposed to keep the factory NB sensor on the JB Pro. The WB sensor cannot be mounted below the 3 or 9 o'clock position because condensation can damage it. Also, it should be mounted flush with the inside of the pipe to protect from heat damage as well. I mounted it right in the middle of the 2 head pipes on the collector to make sure I get an even mix. It's really easy to do and I go through the process in the vid.

[Firefly]

Nope, removed the y pipes. Installed new honda gaskets. drilled the hole for a new bung for the WB sensor. Welded it on and good to go. Supposed to keep the factory NB sensor on the JB Pro. The WB sensor cannot be mounted below the 3 or 9 o'clock position because condensation can damage it. Also, it should be mounted flush with the inside of the pipe to protect from heat damage as well. I mounted it right in the middle of the 2 head pipes on the collector to make sure I get an even mix. It's really easy to do and I go through the process in the vid.


Ah--- okay.. will have to watch the whole thing-- kinda skipped thru it before. I figured the place where the OEM one was mounted was good -- meets the specs of the new unit-- fit perfectly-- and right now I'm using the o2 mod-- but can always use the narrowband signal from the Innovate unit should I decide to ditch the o2 mod-- could even make it switchable between o2 mod and real NB readings...... now just gotta find the time....

[dave01]

JB Pro allows mapping of each cyl. Working on the mounting ideas for the laptop and everything else.

[aka1004]

I gave up on this because spyder does not send right signal for gear positions. There is just no way for pc or jb pro to know what gear it's in and can not account for more air coming in at higher gear as gear positions can not be calibrated.
According to dynojet, both cylinders are very similar and they did not see a need to monitor each cylinder separately.

One good thing with having autotune or dynojet's afr monitor was when it got hot or cold, especially hot, spyder would starts to rough and in few minutes it will make adjustments.

[vtspyder]

Speed or gear would be irrelevant, even if the ECM accounts for it, your fuel device tuning would just continue to maintain the same deviations throughout it's entire rpm & throtle position range. The engine doesn't know what gear the transmission is in, it only needs the proper fuel/air ratio for the precise rpm & throttle position combination that it is subject to, at that particular moment.

That makes a lot of sense. :agree: Everything comes down to 2 simple things, the way I understand it; where is the throttle positioned at any given time and is the mix of air to fuel appropriate at that time to make the most power?

Studying map 3 as it comes from 2 bro's, I notice that the air:fuel mix becomes progressively leaner as you get above 5000rpm. That suggests to me that the ecm does a good job of dumping fuel in on demand once you move into the higher rpm and throttle ranges. I "have" noticed that once I am cruising at 5000 and up it is a little rich. If my memory serves me well I think the AFR moved to 12:1-12.9:1. I have already pulled back the JB in that rpm and throttle range and need to go more

Just a note: I took my wife's Spyder out last night which is bone stock and noticed the difference right away in power and smoothness. I've gotten so used to how smooth and powerful my sm5 is with these mods it was actually a dissapointment riding hers (don't tell her that:lecturef_smilie:). Mine goes up through the gears so quickly but because of the smoothness and additional power. Reminds me of the 13B rotary I had in the RX7 years ago.

[aka1004]

I think almost everyone with evo race air or kewlmetal set up would agree that made significant difference on their spider but it made almost no difference on dyno.
I was thinking it made no difference on dyno or in "lab" condition because there is no added air (cooler air) coming in at higher speed.


Spyder just happens to be a "bike" without right signal for gear calibration. I am guessing if it was not important, it would not be part of power commander's main function.

If your base afr is at 13. Whatever, your afr will go down much lower at full or higher throttle position. It is not going to stay the same thruout the throttle position. You need that extra fuel.

[vtspyder]

As I suspected, The Spyder was running way too rich. I have since reloaded the stock map 3 into the jb pro and have done quite a bit of tweaking to the low end. When I ran just the dual exhaust with the factory box and filter it ran just fine in the low end. It seems the minute you install a high flow green filter or a freer flowing air intake, that annoying stumble/burble rears it's ugly head. The gauge has been invaluable in tuning that area. It's amazing to see how screwed up the ecm is in controlling those parameters in the 2500-3500 rpm range. Just wanted to update! According to my readings on the gauge, the ecm does an excellent job compensating for the increased air flow at the higher rpm ranges out of the closed loop area. It also makes me think the intake really isn't moving that much more air.:dontknow:

[Firefly]

As I suspected, The Spyder was running way too rich. I have since reloaded the stock map 3 into the jb pro and have done quite a bit of tweaking to the low end. When I ran just the dual exhaust with the factory box and filter it ran just fine in the low end. It seems the minute you install a high flow green filter or a freer flowing air intake, that annoying stumble/burble rears it's ugly head. The gauge has been invaluable in tuning that area. It's amazing to see how screwed up the ecm is in controlling those parameters in the 2500-3500 rpm range. Just wanted to update! According to my readings on the gauge, the ecm does an excellent job compensating for the increased air flow at the higher rpm ranges out of the closed loop area. It also makes me think the intake really isn't moving that much more air.:dontknow:

I had mine leaned back to where my AFR gauge was reading in the 13's -- but the spyder just didn't have the same 'oomph'. Richened things back up and now see the 12's most the time and it runs much better....

Just don't think these like running very lean at all........

Curious to see how Seth is doing with his PC and auto-tune setup.....

[vtspyder]

I had mine leaned back to where my AFR gauge was reading in the 13's -- but the spyder just didn't have the same 'oomph'. Richened things back up and now see the 12's most the time and it runs much better....

Just don't think these like running very lean at all........

Curious to see how Seth is doing with his PC and auto-tune setup.....

I totally agree. Mine was way over the top rich. Moving into the mid to low 11's at times. Now I have the cruise areas set in the low 13's (still pulling 36 MPG)and when I hit it it drops to mid to upper 12's and she gets up and "go's". I actually checked to see how far I could push it to the rich side and the Spyder completely died under acceleration.LOL

[weaponjr]

I'm in the process setting up my 09 SM5 with the Yoshimura pipe. W/o any fuel mods yet, I'm popping on decel. I will also install the green filter when I can adjust fuel delivery.

I have the JB Pro and I'm installing a wideband with data aquisition that I borrowed from work. I will have the capability to record 75 minutes. I plan to record, tps, rpm, air temp, and map. I have another channel available but not sure that I'm going to use it. I was hoping to get the bung installed tonight but it's over 100 in my garage at 9pm tonight. It shoud start cooling off by the weekend.

I'm hoping to collect some data on the weekend. Any thoughts you have would be appreciated...

Thanks,

Rich :spyder2::spyder2::spyder2: