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spyder1975
04-28-2011, 05:25 PM
hi everyone! first time ive posted ,been reading on this site forever its a wealth of info!!! but i have a question..i bought a 2010 spider rs last year after selling my harley. i love the spider but i really miss that low rumble my v&h pipes gave me so was wondering if somone could give me a direction on a pipe that would give me somthing close to that. im looking at the two brothers dual racing exhaust. is this a good pipe? and will it give me that sound and hopfully a bump in performance? already got a juice box on its way. thanks in advance any input you have will be helpful!!!

IWN2RYD
04-28-2011, 05:33 PM
hi everyone! first time ive posted ,been reading on this site forever its a wealth of info!!! but i have a question..i bought a 2010 spider rs last year after selling my harley. i love the spider but i really miss that low rumble my v&h pipes gave me so was wondering if somone could give me a direction on a pipe that would give me somthing close to that. im looking at the two brothers dual racing exhaust. is this a good pipe? and will it give me that sound and hopfully a bump in performance? already got a juice box on its way. thanks in advance any input you have will be helpful!!!

:welcome::congrats:

The TB Dual pipes are AWESOME. I had to put the 7db reducers in mine because they are that loud. Others love it without them... Definitely gives off a rumble/muscular type sound... Just not the deeeeeep BOOM you could say. I think part of it is the engine itself (Being a hard pulsing RPM lover). Many folks have put straight pipes on. Just have to be careful with the computer stuff when getting away from well known manufactures...

SpyderSteve
04-28-2011, 05:36 PM
:welcome: HMF My self :2thumbs:

spyder1975
04-28-2011, 05:47 PM
would love to put two stacked long straight pipes out the back just scared of messing up the computer or somthing...would really like the same pipes i had on the harley,dont know if that would work or not? have a body shop so i could fab it up and make it work ...again scared of the computer stuff im not real sure how fussy the spider is yet.

arntufun
04-28-2011, 05:48 PM
:welcome: HMF My self :2thumbs:

:agree: Any pipe is going to be better than the stock one !!!

arntufun
04-28-2011, 05:51 PM
would love to put two stacked long straight pipes out the back just scared of messing up the computer or somthing...would really like the same pipes i had on the harley,dont know if that would work or not? have a body shop so i could fab it up and make it work ...again scared of the computer stuff im not real sure how fussy the spider is yet.


The Spyder IS the fussyest bike I have ever owned. But I will never ever trade her, not even for 10 harleys. It's to much fun !!!

spyder1975
04-28-2011, 06:01 PM
just got of the phone with a guy at vance and hines they are developing a pipe rt now . first thing he asked was where i live i told him maine he was disapointed said he is trying to find somone in southern california to let him dyno a spyder with this pipe on it...dont know if any of you guys are interested he said the pipe resembles the fz1 pipe for the hyabusa...

EricDeub
04-28-2011, 06:02 PM
I have a Used Two Brothers Carbon Fiber Dual Exhaust I put 1800 miles on it. It is to loud for me http://ohiospyderryders.com/simplemachinesforum/Smileys/default/shocked.gif I will sell it for $450 $20 shipping.

$450 and $20 shipping

SilverSurfer
04-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Low Rumble? Not with a Spyder, no matter what the exhaust and pipes. More of a snappy little 'growl,' actually.

Grizz
04-28-2011, 06:34 PM
I put a Micron pipe on mine sounds Great, and gave it a good horsepower boost! :thumbup: Even my Harley buddies like the way my :spyder2:Barks!
Ride Safe
Grizz

Dragonrider
04-28-2011, 06:38 PM
Box stock, rather hear my tunes & keep my hearing

EricDeub
04-28-2011, 06:45 PM
http://youtu.be/OnujO7i4vSk the sound of Two Brothers dual racing exhaust

DragonSpyder
04-28-2011, 07:00 PM
Leo Vince

Brunswick
04-28-2011, 07:06 PM
This would be a great Spyderfest project: line up bikes with all the common exhausts (start with stock, then Hindle, HMF, TB single, TB dual, etc...) and move down the line making a video (from about 10' behind each bike) as the owner starts it up and revs it to 5-6k, then shuts it down and we move on to the next. Would make for great comparison shopping!

COOLMACHINE
04-28-2011, 08:42 PM
This would be a great Spyderfest project: line up bikes with all the common exhausts (start with stock, then Hindle, HMF, TB single, TB dual, etc...) and move down the line making a video (from about 10' behind each bike) as the owner starts it up and revs it to 5-6k, then shuts it down and we move on to the next. Would make for great comparison shopping!

Great idea! Just get a hold of somebody at Spyderfest and I'll bet they could (and would) do it for us. Nice thinking. :thumbup:

SpyderWolf
04-28-2011, 08:46 PM
would love to put two stacked long straight pipes out the back just scared of messing up the computer or somthing...would really like the same pipes i had on the harley,dont know if that would work or not? have a body shop so i could fab it up and make it work ...again scared of the computer stuff im not real sure how fussy the spider is yet.

There are a few owners on here that fabricated their own exhaust systems. They sounded pretty darn good as well, but not the same sound your Harley used to make.


just got of the phone with a guy at vance and hines they are developing a pipe rt now . first thing he asked was where i live i told him maine he was disapointed said he is trying to find somone in southern california to let him dyno a spyder with this pipe on it...dont know if any of you guys are interested he said the pipe resembles the fz1 pipe for the hyabusa...

Thanks for this information as well. I sent Vance & Hines an email message several months ago asking if they were going to develop a can for the Spyder and they said no. I will be very interested to see what they come up with as I have always liked their products. :thumbup:

SpyderWolf
04-28-2011, 09:22 PM
I don't think it's that fussy with exhausts if done correctly. Mine is totally unconventional and I'm not seeing any problems. I'm running dual Suzuki GSX-R cans, Juice Box & Kewlmetal intake. It sounds really sweet. If somebody does organize an exhaust sound off at the Fest I'd be glad to exercise the volume control. :D

You need to get with Lamont and ask him to video an exhaust can showdown for Spyderlovers like was mentioned above. I am sure there are a whole bunch of members who would greatly appreciate the side by side comparisons. :2thumbs:

SpyderWolf
04-28-2011, 09:35 PM
:agree:
I'll seek out Lamont tomorrow and let him know. He has probably already read this or sensed it.

Thanks!

See if you can get one of the turbo charged Spyders in on the lineup as well.

Firefly
04-28-2011, 10:38 PM
HMF :2thumbs:

vtspyder
04-29-2011, 06:31 AM
hi everyone! first time ive posted ,been reading on this site forever its a wealth of info!!! but i have a question..i bought a 2010 spider rs last year after selling my harley. i love the spider but i really miss that low rumble my v&h pipes gave me so was wondering if somone could give me a direction on a pipe that would give me somthing close to that. im looking at the two brothers dual racing exhaust. is this a good pipe? and will it give me that sound and hopfully a bump in performance? already got a juice box on its way. thanks in advance any input you have will be helpful!!!

I have an aluminum polished 2 brothers dual exhaust, juice box,o2 modifier and green filter (complete package I can sell to you if interested. I went back to stock because my wife and I are going to use communicators between the 2 machines. I will make you a great deal on the package.

mdr
04-29-2011, 11:21 AM
just got of the phone with a guy at vance and hines they are developing a pipe rt now . first thing he asked was where i live i told him maine he was disapointed said he is trying to find somone in southern california to let him dyno a spyder with this pipe on it...dont know if any of you guys are interested he said the pipe resembles the fz1 pipe for the hyabusa...

I live about 15 minutes from the V and H factory in So. Cal and would be willing to bring my Spyder by so they could test their pipe. Let me know who you spoke with and his # and I'll give him a call.

SpyderWolf
04-29-2011, 11:50 AM
I live about 15 minutes from the V and H factory in So. Cal and would be willing to bring my Spyder by so they could test their pipe. Let me know who you spoke with and his # and I'll give him a call.

:2thumbs:

It doesn't get any better than that. Please keep us posted as to if they take you up on your offer and how things go with the testing. :thumbup:

spyder3rdr
04-29-2011, 12:29 PM
LeoVince ... I have dual LeoVince on my :spyder2: ... 1 on each side ...:2thumbs: looks great and the sound in stereo is awesome !!! :thumbup::thumbup:

I also have a single side LeoVince thats sounds great in mono :thumbup:

Bob Denman
04-29-2011, 12:45 PM
This would be a great Spyderfest project: line up bikes with all the common exhausts (start with stock, then Hindle, HMF, TB single, TB dual, etc...) and move down the line making a video (from about 10' behind each bike) as the owner starts it up and revs it to 5-6k, then shuts it down and we move on to the next. Would make for great comparison shopping!

It would be even better if a chassis dyno could be rolled in for some numbers too! :2thumbs:

spyder1975
04-29-2011, 07:17 PM
would be great to hear a side by side of all the different ones out there...think im gonna go with the tb seems to be the sound im looking for. thanks for posting the video!!! got a wrap coming from peter should be hear soon ...and my led light kit just came so gonna be busy for a bit i guess lol ill post a few pics when i get it done :)

febail
04-29-2011, 07:59 PM
just got of the phone with a guy at vance and hines they are developing a pipe rt now . first thing he asked was where i live i told him maine he was disapointed said he is trying to find somone in southern california to let him dyno a spyder with this pipe on it...dont know if any of you guys are interested he said the pipe resembles the fz1 pipe for the hyabusa...

So give the guy at Vance and Hines number... I'm in SoCal
Frank - (800) 721-2245

mdr
05-11-2011, 04:32 PM
I live about 15 minutes from the V and H factory in So. Cal and would be willing to bring my Spyder by so they could test their pipe. Let me know who you spoke with and his # and I'll give him a call.

Just wanted to follow-up: I left two voicemails at the factory and sent an e-mail. I never received a response.

mdr
05-11-2011, 06:16 PM
V and H just sent me an e-mail. More soon . . .

1BLACKSPYDER
05-11-2011, 09:32 PM
:welcome: waiting for my HMF!!!! Carbon fiber:2thumbs:

hardrock49
05-12-2011, 06:41 AM
I have a 2010 RT and will be reading threads every day for an announcement that V&H has a slip on for me:2excited:

SpyderWolf
05-20-2011, 01:51 PM
V and H just sent me an e-mail. More soon . . .

Any further updates yet?

mdr
05-20-2011, 03:49 PM
Any further updates yet?

Yup--I've been in touch via e-mail with the folks at V and H and we are setting a date (hopefully in the next 2 weeks) for me to drop off the Spyder. They will dyno and street-test their new prototype. As soon as I have a drop-off date, I'll post. I'll also post any pics/info about the pipe as long as they give me the green light to do so. :2thumbs:

SpyderWolf
05-20-2011, 05:15 PM
Yup--I've been in touch via e-mail with the folks at V and H and we are setting a date (hopefully in the next 2 weeks) for me to drop off the Spyder. They will dyno and street-test their new prototype. As soon as I have a drop-off date, I'll post. I'll also post any pics/info about the pipe as long as they give me the green light to do so. :2thumbs:

:2thumbs: That is great news and I will definitely be looking forward to seeing, and hearing, the finished product. :2thumbs:

surfnkona2
05-20-2011, 05:54 PM
I too wanted the sound my Harley gave me. I have tried both the Two Brothers and the Leo Vince. In my opion the Leo Vince gave me the best sound. :2thumbs:

mdr
05-27-2011, 05:28 PM
:2thumbs: That is great news and I will definitely be looking forward to seeing, and hearing, the finished product. :2thumbs:

I'm dropping my Spyder off at V and H the first week of June. They will have my bike for about two weeks. Stay tuned.

SpyderWolf
05-27-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm dropping my Spyder off at V and H the first week of June. They will have my bike for about two weeks. Stay tuned.

I will definitely be staying tuned to this channel to find out the results. You are one lucky Spyder owner. :thumbup:

Schultzi
05-27-2011, 06:14 PM
hi everyone! first time ive posted ,been reading on this site forever its a wealth of info!!! but i have a question..i bought a 2010 spider rs last year after selling my harley. i love the spider but i really miss that low rumble my v&h pipes gave me so was wondering if somone could give me a direction on a pipe that would give me somthing close to that. im looking at the two brothers dual racing exhaust. is this a good pipe? and will it give me that sound and hopfully a bump in performance? already got a juice box on its way. thanks in advance any input you have will be helpful!!!

Check out this link: http://youtu.be/tRL5FuTY6y4

This is the RS prototype i'm working on, let me know what you think

mdr
06-03-2011, 01:49 PM
I dropped off my Spyder today at Vance and Hines. Cool place with lots of bikes out front. They will have my Spyder for about two weeks, and hope to have a production model ready to go in August. Guess who gets the first one:ohyea:

More details as they become available.

SpyderWolf
06-03-2011, 01:52 PM
I dropped off my Spyder today at Vance and Hines. Cool place with lots of bikes out front. They will have my Spyder for about two weeks, and hope to have a production model ready to go in August. Guess who gets the first one:ohyea:

More details as they become available.

Thanks for the update. That is one of the best parts of being a test pilot, sometimes you get free stuff for letting them mess with your machine. :congrats:

mdr
06-04-2011, 12:04 AM
The Spyder waiting to go in for testing at V and H.

Questions
06-04-2011, 10:17 AM
:thumbup:
hi everyone! first time ive posted ,been reading on this site forever its a wealth of info!!! but i have a question..i bought a 2010 spider rs last year after selling my harley. i love the spider but i really miss that low rumble my v&h pipes gave me so was wondering if somone could give me a direction on a pipe that would give me somthing close to that. im looking at the two brothers dual racing exhaust. is this a good pipe? and will it give me that sound and hopfully a bump in performance? already got a juice box on its way. thanks in advance any input you have will be helpful!!!

Questions
06-04-2011, 10:23 AM
Morning i own a 2008 spyder phathom and have a 2 brothers twin racing exhaust all carbon fiber and let me tell you the sound and looks of the Spyder turns heads being a v twin the rumble is very simular to the Harleys i also own a 2008 gsxr 750 with a youshi exhaust system and no comparsion thums up :2thumbs:

mdr
06-24-2011, 10:54 PM
Just wanted to give a quick V and H update. I was supposed to pick up the Spyder tomorrow, but they needed to order a different power commander, which is fine because with my work/travel schedule the next few weeks I wouldn't have any time to ryde. So I told them to keep the spyder and keep testing. Should have some news and hopefully a pic by mid-July.

SpyderWolf
06-25-2011, 07:33 AM
Just wanted to give a quick V and H update. I was supposed to pick up the Spyder tomorrow, but they needed to order a different power commander, which is fine because with my work/travel schedule the next few weeks I wouldn't have any time to ryde. So I told them to keep the spyder and keep testing. Should have some news and hopefully a pic by mid-July.

Thanks for the update. Was there an issue with the original PC they had, or is there an updated version they are planning to use with their exhaust instead? This is making me glad I waited on getting a JB Pro or anything, as if V&H are going to have a map to go along with the exhaust and the PC it could be a really good thing. :thumbup:

mdr
06-26-2011, 05:58 PM
Thanks for the update. Was there an issue with the original PC they had, or is there an updated version they are planning to use with their exhaust instead? This is making me glad I waited on getting a JB Pro or anything, as if V&H are going to have a map to go along with the exhaust and the PC it could be a really good thing. :thumbup:

Not sure--they explained in an e-mail that the pc they had wasn't working correctly, and they have a new one coming in to work with.

Yazz
06-26-2011, 06:40 PM
Thanks for the update. Was there an issue with the original PC they had, or is there an updated version they are planning to use with their exhaust instead? This is making me glad I waited on getting a JB Pro or anything, as if V&H are going to have a map to go along with the exhaust and the PC it could be a really good thing. :thumbup:

Just found this thread! Oh man, I so miss the breathy, throaty, Barry White rumble on my Springer's V&H Shortshots!

:bowdown: Thank you mdr for pioneering the way! :yes::2excited:

aka1004
06-26-2011, 08:02 PM
I wonder why they don't use their own fuel-pak.
if they decided to produce muffler for spyder, wouldn't they offer fuel-pak too?
Also, if they make throttle-pak for RT, that would be great.

BioSab
06-26-2011, 08:55 PM
I have TB dual carbon fiber.. They are awesome loud growl... No db silencer I wear ear plugs!!! I'm a member of a LE MC and the two riders love the sound of my spyder!

SpyderWolf
06-27-2011, 08:27 PM
I wonder why they don't use their own fuel-pak.
if they decided to produce muffler for spyder, wouldn't they offer fuel-pak too?
Also, if they make throttle-pak for RT, that would be great.

Perhaps they are going to partner with PC for the fuel pack? :dontknow: I know when I ran a V&H on my GSX-R 750 the only decent option at the time was Dynajet Kits. Things have changed a ton since 1986, but sometimes it is still easier to partner with someone that to create something from scratch.

Euripedes Neves
06-27-2011, 08:40 PM
:2thumbs:
:welcome: HMF My self :2thumbs:

aka1004
06-27-2011, 08:48 PM
Perhaps they are going to partner with PC for the fuel pack? :dontknow: I know when I ran a V&H on my GSX-R 750 the only decent option at the time was Dynajet Kits. Things have changed a ton since 1986, but sometimes it is still easier to partner with someone that to create something from scratch.

Fuelpak and throttlepak are both made by V&H, all in-house designed and manufactured by themselves so buying pc for spyder doesn't make sence to me. may be V&H does not feel market is big enough for it, for their time and effort.:dontknow:

SpyderWolf
06-27-2011, 08:50 PM
Fuelpak and throttlepak are both made by V&H, all in-house designed and manufactured by themselves so buying pc for spyder doesn't make sence to me. may be V&H does not feel market is not big enough for it, time and effort.

That could very well be, as when I first sent them an email asking if they were going to make an exhaust for the Spyder they were quick with a reply saying no. That was nearly a year ago, and now they are making one so who knows what else will eventually change. :thumbup:

Tadgh45
06-28-2011, 02:59 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but as a brand spanking new 2011 RT-S owner I really don't know the answer to this question: Does putting an aftermarket exhaust system on your machine affect your warranty at all? Do you need to reprogram anything in the electronics?
Thanks,
Tadgh45

SSG Bean
06-28-2011, 03:14 PM
Just found this thread! Oh man, I so miss the breathy, throaty, Barry White rumble on my Springer's V&H Shortshots!

:bowdown: Thank you mdr for pioneering the way! :yes::2excited:


Short of putting the Harley V-Twin in your Spyder you will never get that sound. There are some awesome sounding alternatives, but as others have said, the bore/stroke combination is completely different and won't produce that sound no matter how hard you try.

napper39
06-28-2011, 06:01 PM
i got this one from esi and it sounds gooood,but a little loud like a 57 cheve with a 34 cam and open headers ,noe thats cool.:D:thumbup::2thumbs::chat:

SpyderWolf
07-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but as a brand spanking new 2011 RT-S owner I really don't know the answer to this question: Does putting an aftermarket exhaust system on your machine affect your warranty at all? Do you need to reprogram anything in the electronics?
Thanks,
Tadgh45

An aftermarket exhaust will not void your warranty. The ECM can compensate for the free flowing exhaust without a problem, but when you start doing other things like free flow air filters and such it may not be able to keep up. That is when people start using the Power Commander or Juice Box set ups. The only issue you have with your RT is the choices are quite a bit more limited than they are for those of us with the RS.

Dragonrider
07-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Watch you don't run afoul of new noise laws - non-stock exhaust is a major ticket on the left coast….

mdr
07-20-2011, 07:28 PM
I picked up my Spyder from V and H today. They had it for about a month, which was fine because I have been traveling out of state and wasn't able to ryde. Unfortunately they weren't willing to let me keep or post a picture of the prototype on the Spyder--bummer. However, they did let me see a picture of their pipe on a Spyder and I can tell you that it looks really good. It's a single pipe that flows with the lines of the Spyder. Production should start in Sept./Oct., and as soon as the first one is ready I'll ride over, they will put it on, and I'll post pics. I sent an e-mail to the tech and hopefully he will share the dyno results with me. I rode a Harley before buying the Spyder, and I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing the final product!

Yazz
07-20-2011, 08:23 PM
Short of putting the Harley V-Twin in your Spyder you will never get that sound. There are some awesome sounding alternatives, but as others have said, the bore/stroke combination is completely different and won't produce that sound no matter how hard you try.

Of course Spydee does not have "potato. potato, potato" in her vocabulary. Never will. Its the nature of the beast. Running Two Bros. Duals right now. They are close, but no cigar.


I picked up my Spyder from V and H today. They had it for about a month, which was fine because I have been traveling out of state and wasn't able to ryde. Unfortunately they weren't willing to let me keep or post a picture of the prototype on the Spyder--bummer. However, they did let me see a picture of their pipe on a Spyder and I can tell you that it looks really good. It's a single pipe that flows with the lines of the Spyder. Production should start in Sept./Oct., and as soon as the first one is ready I'll ride over, they will put it on, and I'll post pics. I sent an e-mail to the tech and hopefully he will share the dyno results with me. I rode a Harley before buying the Spyder, and I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing the final product!

So is it a two into one? :popcorn:

SpyderWolf
10-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Are they in production yet?

mdr
10-31-2011, 05:10 PM
I spoke with the folks from V and H today and they "decided to kill the spyder exhaust project." They didn't provide the reason(s), but I was really looking forward to a V and H pipe on my Spyder. The customer rep told me he would honor their agreement to give me a free pipe, and told me I could pick from their catalogue (posted below). Since I sold my Harley and only have the Spyder, I'll pick a pipe and put it up for sale or work out something with a spyderlover who needs a pipe for a different bike and wants to pay or trade. I'll post in the WTB section as well. Sorry to share the crappy news.

http://www.vanceandhines.com/index.php

spyderman526
11-01-2011, 04:12 PM
hello did anyone have to retune when you put on the slip on exhaust or do u need to have a new tune when you put a exhaust n air filter i was told if i put just exhaust a slip on the dealer said i would need a need a retune so which is it my other bike needed a retune after i put the air filter n jardine system but ran fine with just the exhaust help please .....kb:banghead:

SpyderWolf
11-06-2011, 09:19 AM
I spoke with the folks from V and H today and they "decided to kill the spyder exhaust project." They didn't provide the reason(s), but I was really looking forward to a V and H pipe on my Spyder. The customer rep told me he would honor their agreement to give me a free pipe, and told me I could pick from their catalogue (posted below). Since I sold my Harley and only have the Spyder, I'll pick a pipe and put it up for sale or work out something with a spyderlover who needs a pipe for a different bike and wants to pay or trade. I'll post in the WTB section as well. Sorry to share the crappy news.

http://www.vanceandhines.com/index.php

Thanks for the update. I am very sorry to hear they scrapped the project as well. It would be very interesting to know what their reasons were for doing so, but it doesn't look like they are willing to share that.


hello did anyone have to retune when you put on the slip on exhaust or do u need to have a new tune when you put a exhaust n air filter i was told if i put just exhaust a slip on the dealer said i would need a need a retune so which is it my other bike needed a retune after i put the air filter n jardine system but ran fine with just the exhaust help please .....kb:banghead:

If you just put a slip on exhaust on, you should not need to make any changes to the Spyder. The ECM has enough play to normally compensate for that change. If you put a different air filter and a slip on exhaust on it, then you will likely need to do something else for best performance. On my Spyder I am running a K&N air filter in the stock air box and the Hindle exhaust, and the Evoluzione O2 Modifier was the only other change I needed to get great performance from it. Others have used the Juice Box, or similar setup, to help get them where they wanted to be. The Spyder runs close to lean from the factory, and each of these changes leans it out some more. That is why you need to get more fuel into the system if you do both changes together.

Love2Ride
11-06-2011, 10:46 AM
There are a few owners on here that fabricated their own exhaust systems. They sounded pretty darn good as well, but not the same sound your Harley used to make.



Thanks for this information as well. I sent Vance & Hines an email message several months ago asking if they were going to develop a can for the Spyder and they said no. I will be very interested to see what they come up with as I have always liked their products. :thumbup:

Oh no you don't!!! I remember the LAST one you got. ;) If you do that then you'll ride in back ALL the time. LOL

SpyderWolf
11-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Oh no you don't!!! I remember the LAST one you got. ;) If you do that then you'll ride in back ALL the time. LOL

Unfortunately, they decided not to go forward with making a can for the Spyder. :( You, your dad, and the woods, are probably safer for that. :roflblack:

Love2Ride
11-06-2011, 02:23 PM
Unfortunately, they decided not to go forward with making a can for the Spyder. :( You, your dad, and the woods, are probably safer for that. :roflblack:

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Er, I mean, Oh dear, isn't that too bad. You have to admit, Love, that the wildlife is so much nicer looking without shell shock. :shocked: