The engine that should come in the sport model

[altonk]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=11SfeOim1xM

[Firefly]

That link is a bunch of Katrina stuff.....

[Raptor]

That link is a bunch of Katrina stuff.....

Yup. Dooh!! :D Oh well, it happens. So let's just do some research here: What engine do people think should come in the Spyder RS? Should they come out with a limited (or not) "Super Sport" Model? This should be interesting!

[altonk]

Still based on the rotax crankcase and transmission?

[WackyDan]

I would vote for the original config of our motor with the higher output top end. 146 horse would be nice.

As much as it would be nice to see a V4, or an inline, the design just doesn't have room for one as it is laid out now. It would be probably most cost effective from a design stand point to offer the Rotax in the neutered config we have and a higher end offering that is already in their stable.

What would I pay as a premium? Hard to say. I can buy a turbo for $5k and potentially pay more to have it installed.... for about 150HP.... From the factory, using essentially the same mill, I would be willing to pop for a $2500 premium.

There were rumors of a hot rod Spyder in the works and a price tag that was going to be really outrageous...Which I think were unfounded. A higher output engine shouldn't really command that much of a premium especially if it is a Rotax.

[elixermixer]

without having brp reinvent the wheel they have a decent motor that was built and developed for the buell 1125r...
just as the 990 was used for the aprilia rsv1000r and tuno and tuned down for the added weight of the spyder, im sure the former buell motor could work as well (unless they are restricted due to contractual obligations? which may no longer be intact due to the harley buell issue). im sure the added cc would gain both speed and grunt... then again im sure you could take your 990 to any shop that used to race the old aprilia (before the rsv4 rolled out) and im sure they could swap or help squeeze some juice from a twin that used to be rated at 139hp in the rsv. there are options. infact i wondered why brp chose the 990 when they released the spyder knowing what else they had in the shop at the time.

[Raptor]

This would be a gas:

Aprilia longitudinal 65° V-4 cylinder, 4-stroke, liquid cooling system, double overhead camshafts (DOHC), four valves per cylinder

1000 CCs and 180HP at the crank! (Evil laughter ensues!!) that would do it for me! Short of that it really wouldn't take much to simply retune the V990 and give us some horsepower without a major re-design. And they could do it without charging an arm and a leg for it either!

[altonk]

Ok for me start with the cosworth castings, bored as large as the water jacket allows, shorten the stroke, harden and balance the internal components to spin 14-16 k. Port and polish. Raise the compression to the limits of pump gas. Cam it as peaky as possible.
Add a launch control and avoid stop and go traffic at all costs

[Raptor]

Ok for me start with the cosworth castings, bored as large as the water jacket allows, shorten the stroke, harden and balance the internal components to spin 14-16 k. Port and polish. Raise the compression to the limits of pump gas. Cam it as peaky as possible.
Add a launch control and avoid stop and go traffic at all costs

And what I would expect from you! Dude that is off the hook! WHat are we talking, 450HP minimum? I don't know if you could hold onto it! Actually, something tells me you could!! :2thumbs: But do you think they could fit it in the present engine bay?

[WackyDan]

Why be so willing to pay a premium? An EPA compliant V-Twin isn't going to be a rocket ship......It doesn't really cost the manufacturer all that much more to produce an higher output engine, after initial R&D......a head is a head, a cam is a cam, a piston is a piston, etc. Limited production would incur some higher tooling costs, but I wouldn't pay thousands for 'factory performance'.

You charge what the market will pay. On my truck, the next larger engine was the same block, mostly the same parts but was $1500 more. There is some real nice profit margin in there.

If people want that power ( And I do...) then they will be willing to pay for it at a far lower price from the factory than what they get in the after market. ie: TURBO My point is, that I don't think there is a market for a separate design of the RS/GS just based on a separate power plant. Using the same RS/GS design whether it is the one out now or the one they might make in the future is logically cost effective for BRP and the cheapest way to prove there is a market for that power.

I know many here feel the Spyder has more than enough power, and that conversation is subjective from rider to rider. To a large extent, I agree that it does. I also know that I chose the Spyder as my first Sport Tourer and that I was moving from in line 4's to a twin. The experience for me has been different on many levels... twin, 3 wheels, heavy, touring.... Although I would love to slap the turbo on it, I am constantly reminding myself that I bought it to tour.

I still want more power though. ;) There was something about twisting that throttle on a ZX-12R and just feeling a whole lot of grunt underneath you. I don't feel the Spyder needs that kind of power at all, but a subtle boost of about 25 horse or so would be nice or again, the option for the base motor and a higher output motor as a premium.

After 3 years of sales I think BRP should have a pretty good handle on whether it is safe or not to put in a higher output mill. The BRP reps I've met said "No Way", that they had found more power was not safe... But those with after market top ends swapped in and turbos are proof that the spyder can be ridden safely with that power ** and that is with the nanny thinking it still has the stock 106 HP to govern.

All that said... I would cry if they came out with the option too soon as I really need to wear my current spyder out first!

[mtdoragary]

I'd vote for the same drivetrain we have now, but with better ECU programming, larger radiator, a cooling fan on the oil cooler, and ducting that sends the hot air from both down and to the rear of the Spyder.

[retread]

:agree:If the engine could ride the torque curve at highway speeds, gas mileage would be better, and acceleration could be better.
As far as paying a premium for performance, I'd be willing, up to a point, but the overall performance would have to be more than noticable.
For instance, HD has finally got the Road Glide Ultra; I've always liked the RG, and the trunk kind of fills in the blanks. But the difference in price between the RGU ((22,500) and the CVOGU (36,000) is more than I'd give for the added performance. JMO

john

[pitbull]

:2thumbs::2thumbs::2thumbs:
without having brp reinvent the wheel they have a decent motor that was built and developed for the buell 1125r...
just as the 990 was used for the aprilia rsv1000r and tuno and tuned down for the added weight of the spyder, im sure the former buell motor could work as well (unless they are restricted due to contractual obligations? which may no longer be intact due to the harley buell issue). im sure the added cc would gain both speed and grunt... then again im sure you could take your 990 to any shop that used to race the old aprilia (before the rsv4 rolled out) and im sure they could swap or help squeeze some juice from a twin that used to be rated at 139hp in the rsv. there are options. infact i wondered why brp chose the 990 when they released the spyder knowing what else they had in the shop at the time.

[Firefly]

Add that much HP--- but give us AWD to use it all up... :2thumbs:

Could be done --- ever see the Christini AWD bikes?

Pretty cool stuff:

http://www.christini.com/

[WackyDan]

While a lot of you guys are calling for more horsepower, I'd like to see more torque in the middle. Rear wheel dyno runs I've seen show a peak of about 60 ftlbs at about 6500 rpm. Stroke it, change the valve timing to reduce overlap, give it a little more compression , give me the ability to tune fuel delivery and especially ignition timing, and show me 20-30 ftlbs more at the rear wheel. The current top end speeds and gearing are fine by me, how fast can you ride anyway? More torque would get you to redline faster, that's where the fun is for me........

I'd take that too...HP or torque, I'd be happier... Top speed was never a thought when I mentioned wanting more power. I likely will never get my spyder to it's top speed and have no interest to. We'll see if BRP delivers in another year or two.

[Raptor]

While a lot of you guys are calling for more horsepower, I'd like to see more torque in the middle. Rear wheel dyno runs I've seen show a peak of about 60 ftlbs at about 6500 rpm. Stroke it, change the valve timing to reduce overlap, give it a little more compression , give me the ability to tune fuel delivery and especially ignition timing, and show me 20-30 ftlbs more at the rear wheel. The current top end speeds and gearing are fine by me, how fast can you ride anyway? More torque would get you to redline faster, that's where the fun is for me........

HDX you certainly bring an excellent point. There is a flat spot in the current configuration around mid-band that I find quite annoying. If they could deliver the spec you issued, I think many of us would be satisfied and call it good. But I need that AND about 25-30 more HP. For some of us, the need for speed is just too intoxicating! Getting there quicker would better yet. Good point and good post! :thumbup:

[Just Doo Me]

You can bet BRP would come out with more horsepower if their were a competitor out there.Look no further than Ski-Doo and BRP Atv's as proof of that.There is a good chance you will see a X model like they do in winter with improved shock and handling package,different motors will come with a couple more years under their belt.:2thumbs:

[boborgera]

;)
My opinion, If they put a more powerful engine in the Spyder, And not up grade the components, [not likely]
You'll be able to get to the repair shop faster.

[BajaRon]

I know I'm :bdh: but this is the direction I'd like to see expolored. Diesel is heavier but the Spyder can handle the extra weight better than 2 wheels. Ok, so it's an ugly motor. Who cares on the Spyder where you don't even see the motor.

You want mileage, you can get it with diesel. You want torque...diesel. If a small diesel motor like this could get the engineering attention that small gasoline motors get it might really surprise you in the power potential as well.

You want low RPM? This 1400cc, twin cam, four valve per cylinder, vertical twin turbo diesel with intercooling produces 100hp and 144 foot pounds of torque at 2600rpm.

Ok, not Ninja material, but I like the concept.

Ok, so I'm the only one that likes this direction. That's ok. I don't mind....

http://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel.jpghttp://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel3.jpg

[retread]

I dunno, Ron, you put the right trans behind that engine and it might surprise a lot of people. Check out the Cummings diesel Indy car from around 1953.

john

[spydee owner]

I would like to see all aluminum frame, either front and or all wheel drive(preferrably all wheel drive), and either the triple1200cc engine used in the snowsleds or the 1125 R engine. I would also like to see them get rid of duplication in the gauge cluster ( don't need both digital and regular gauges). Would like to see dual pipes (one down each side of bike) and faired front wheels (optional). I would like to see the Japanese manufacturers get into the 3 wheel bike market as well. Can you imagine a three wheel bike similar to spyder with a 'busa or R1 mill?
PS diesel is not a stretch... look what is being done with some of the gt1 lemans cars!!
hybrid electric is also possible.

[bjt]

I know I'm :bdh: but this is the direction I'd like to see expolored. Diesel is heavier but the Spyder can handle the extra weight better than 2 wheels. Ok, so it's an ugly motor. Who cares on the Spyder where you don't even see the motor.
...


I like the idea also. After being a (minority) co-owner of a diesel Chevy truck :thumbup:, I wish car companies would make more diesel engined vehicles. It was a very good running vehicle.

[mtdoragary]

I know I'm :bdh: but this is the direction I'd like to see expolored. Diesel is heavier but the Spyder can handle the extra weight better than 2 wheels. Ok, so it's an ugly motor. Who cares on the Spyder where you don't even see the motor.

You want mileage, you can get it with diesel. You want torque...diesel. If a small diesel motor like this could get the engineering attention that small gasoline motors get it might really surprise you in the power potential as well.

You want low RPM? This 1400cc, twin cam, four valve per cylinder, vertical twin turbo diesel with intercooling produces 100hp and 144 foot pounds of torque at 2600rpm.

Ok, not Ninja material, but I like the concept.

Ok, so I'm the only one that likes this direction. That's ok. I don't mind....

http://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel.jpghttp://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel3.jpg

My truck is Cummins powered, my tractor is Yanmar diesel, and my mower is Kubota diesel. The only reason my car isn't a diesel is because the VW CC is not available with diesel in the USA! I considered putting a Yanmar in my URAL, but now I'm too old and broke!

[NancysToy]

I like the idea also.
+1 Diesels are very big in European autos. I'd like to see that move over to some motorcycles. We could run them on bio-diesel and "go green". :D

[draboo]

I know I'm :bdh: but this is the direction I'd like to see expolored. Diesel is heavier but the Spyder can handle the extra weight better than 2 wheels. Ok, so it's an ugly motor. Who cares on the Spyder where you don't even see the motor.

You want mileage, you can get it with diesel. You want torque...diesel. If a small diesel motor like this could get the engineering attention that small gasoline motors get it might really surprise you in the power potential as well.

You want low RPM? This 1400cc, twin cam, four valve per cylinder, vertical twin turbo diesel with intercooling produces 100hp and 144 foot pounds of torque at 2600rpm.

Ok, not Ninja material, but I like the concept.

Ok, so I'm the only one that likes this direction. That's ok. I don't mind....

http://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel.jpghttp://members.cox.net/topocode/Other/neanderdiesel3.jpg

Ron, do you have a link to the motorcycle that this motor is built for?

[altonk]

I agree Audi owns lemans racing with the tdi
http://www.icars.sg/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/audi-r15-2.jpg

[Firefly]

1400cc and 100hp........

[dave01]

Lets just go for it and say an inline 4, 186 hp instock form 1200cc and for the superstock version, one with a turbo making 295 at the rear wheel. These things have enough room for an intercooler so 460 hp is real possible, but not on pump gas

[Raptor]

I have to say that some of the thoughts and ideas that have been shared here have been nothing short of briliant! Nice job everyone. Real ideas from real riders. My hope is that BRP is taking this all in. You never know guys, we could see some innovation on new models in the near future based on thoughtful conversations just like this one. :2thumbs:

[retread]

I vote for Aprilia Tuono. Engine. It is a proven engine and should just drop right in. Add some more cooling and better extraction of under body heat. Also add a tuned dual exhaust system and we'd have ourselves a winner. :2thumbs:
What we have is basically the Tuono engine tuned for more torque, and sixth gear replaced by reverse. Or the old RSV engine done the same way, take your pick.
I'd like to see a lower revving, higher torque setup along the lines of the Triumph Rocket 3, with shaft drive.:doorag:

john

[BajaRon]

1400cc and 100hp........

You're missing 2/3's of the story here. Yes, the HP is not earth shattering. BUT!

Our Spyder makes only 6 more HP, and that at 8500 RPM! That's almost 6 grand higher than the 2600 RPM where you get 100 hp from this diesel.

Even more impressive is the 144 ft lbs. torque at 2600 rpm. Nearly twice the torque of our current power plant of 77 ft. lbs @ 6000 rpm. And it gets there 4,400 rpm sooner.

[BajaRon]

Ron, do you have a link to the motorcycle that this motor is built for?

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/06/19/neander-turbo-diesel-motorcycle/

[Firefly]

I'll keep the diesel reserved for my tractor.......;)

Realistically we'll probably see a 1200 sport version---- maybe in 2012 if the world is still here....:roflblack:

[BajaRon]

I vote for Aprilia Tuono. Engine. It is a proven engine and should just drop right in. Add some more cooling and better extraction of under body heat. Also add a tuned dual exhaust system and we'd have ourselves a winner. :2thumbs:

If the stock Tuono engine would have worked, we'd have gotten it. It cost some bucks to redesign our current engine. Why would BRP spend the money if they could have slapped an off the shelf motor into our Spyder? Answer, they wouldn't

Truth is, you would not be happy with the Tuono engine. There is more to life then HP. The exta HP would not do you much good without the necessary torque to get all this iron and plastic moving.

It would be a miserable ride. In my opinion, the torque we now have is marginal.

What a motor does in a 400 lb machine and one that weighs nearly twice that with 3 times the frontal area are very different.

BRP definitely did the right thing.

[BajaRon]

I'll keep the diesel reserved for my tractor.......;)

Realistically we'll probably see a 1200 sport version---- maybe in 2012 if the world is still here....:roflblack:

I know I could change your mind with the right diesel. But I doubt we'll ever see it. Just too much negative (undeserved, in my opinion) mind set out there.

[randian]

The Spyder needs a sixth gear much more than it needs a new engine. As for the engine, how about keeping things in the family by using the Rotax from the Buell 1125CR?

[BajaRon]

The Spyder needs a sixth gear much more than it needs a new engine. As for the engine, how about keeping things in the family by using the Rotax from the Buell 1125CR?

That would be a good choice. But from what I hear the 1125 is tied up in the Buell package (now defunct) and either isn't for sale or the rights went to someone other than BRP.

That motor would need the same up in torque costing total peak hp just like our current power plant.

[venom]

what i heard is the 1125cc rotax built for Buell who no longer using this motor....

[randian]

That would be a good choice. But from what I hear the 1125 is tied up in the Buell package (now defunct) and either isn't for sale or the rights went to someone other than BRP.
I'm sure whoever owns the rights to produce the engine wouldn't mind making a deal, since that right is worthless right now.


That motor would need the same up in torque costing total peak hp just like our current power plant.
From what I could tell the 1125CR motor not only has loads more peak power, it has a much flatter torque curve than the Spyder's.

[randian]

what i heard is the 1125cc rotax built for Buell who no longer using this motor....
Exactly. What value does that motor have right now? Zero. What value does it have if Can-Am is buying them for its Spyder? More than zero. I find that math compelling.

[BajaRon]

Exactly. What value does that motor have right now? Zero. What value does it have if Can-Am is buying them for its Spyder? More than zero. I find that math compelling.

Unfortunately, in the corporate world, things that make sense to you and me just don't happen sometimes.

But I do agree, the 1125 is a great motor and will pop up again somewhere. Whether or not it is in the Spyder, well, that is another matter entirely.

I would say that BRP is looking at it, for sure.

[BajaRon]

From what I could tell the 1125CR motor not only has loads more peak power, it has a much flatter torque curve than the Spyder's.

The 1125 has 82 ft. lbs. torque compared to our 77 ft. lbs. Not an earth shaking increase by any means. You may get close to this with an intake/exhasut/JB upgrade.

Hp on the1125 is 146 compared to our 106. This sounds better than it is because of the weight difference between the Buell at 375 lbs. dry compared to our over 700 lbs. dry.

So giving up a few hp (maybe 125-130 total) to get close to 90 ft. lbs. torque (just my guess of the trade off) would make for a better experience.

[Firefly]

what i heard is the 1125cc rotax built for Buell who no longer using this motor....

Correct--- Buell was shut down by its parent company--- HD.

I believe HD retains the rights to that engine, much like they did with the V-rod engine which was designed by Porsche.

[Just Doo Me]

BRP owns Rotax.:2thumbs:

[SilverSurfer]

I'd like to see a future Spyder with the Rotax 1125cc option. OR ... a future Spyder with the v-twin used in the BMW K1200 series.

[altonk]

After a lot of research I am going the turbo route. The guys at aerocharger said they can make more power than the rear wheel can put to the ground and I can bolt it on. Gonna go with an electronic boost controller so I can have a cruise mode and a death wish mode :2thumbs:

[BajaRon]

After a lot of research I am going the turbo route. The guys at aerocharger said they can make more power than the rear wheel can put to the ground and I can bolt it on. Gonna go with an electronic boost controller so I can have a cruise mode and a death wish mode :2thumbs:

You can already spin the rear tire easily. The limiting factor is the Nanny kicking in and not running out of HP.

Of course the Turbo will increase tire spinning potential but I'd say the Nanny will work hard to take the fun out of that particular aspect.

[altonk]

Yeah but the 60 to 90+ times will be better

[BajaRon]

Yeah but the 60 to 90+ times will be better

And you can always disable the Nanny, though really not recommended.

[jedd]

I want 300 hp don't care on displacement ,18,000 peak RPM top speed capable of 189MPH and I want to get 10 MPG of GAS..Oh a whistle of a supercharger would be cool too.;)

Jim:thumbup: