Useable downforce

[altonk]

Anyone have any ideas on getting some useable downforce on the back of our spiders

they tend to oversteer and an electric wing with about 200 lbs of pushbutton downforce would be great.

This wing on a single pylon with a servomotor driving angle of attack would be great

http://http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=44 (http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=44)

[BillGargan]

I am -- in my 11,000 mile experience -- confused by your remark about oversteer. You may be correct and I -- simply -- may have never experience it.

If you were really pushing the Spyder through a turn and it "tried' to oversteer, the computer controls (nanny, some like to call it) would jump in and say N O T GOING TO HAPPEN!

Do I misstate the case?


Anyone have any ideas on getting some useable downforce on the back of our spiders

they tend to oversteer and an electric wing with about 200 lbs of pushbutton downforce would be great.

This wing on a single pylon with a servomotor driving angle of attack would be great

http://http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=44

[altonk]

That's the problem it happens too soon.

By putting more weight on the rear wheel at the apex of the turn it has more grip. You can go faster before you reach the limit of adhesion of the rear tire.

Modern F1 and GT cars put as much as 3000 pounds of total downforce at speed.

[altonk]

A good article on downforce

http://http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=44 (http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=44)



http://http://www.mhest.com/spotlight/automobiles/articles/Race-CarAerodynamics.pdf (http://www.mhest.com/spotlight/automobiles/articles/Race-CarAerodynamics.pdf)

[WackyDan]

I've thrown the spyder around pretty hard in the twisties.... Honestly, I can't see a situation where more downforce is possible given that the speeds at which you take a tight turn are not enough to generate enough downforce to make a difference anyway.

[altonk]

Think 70-80 mph sweepers you could get some push there

Given enough drag you can get downforce at most any speed

[Zombo]

Well, you can be the pioneer in the engineering of such a device for the Spyder. :D

[altonk]

Engineering it is not nearly so hard as fabricating it
Wish I had a local fab shop to work with

[scudrunner]

I'm not sure where you would put the wing where it would get enough air to provide enough down force. The driver would disrupt the wind flow if it were on the back I would think. And yes, I've noticed the over-steer. It isn't to the point of the nanny kicking in, but as you go into a turn, just a little extra turn of the bars tends to make the Spyder dive into the turn, requiring you to back off a little. I believe that is why most people think the Spyder has a steering problem. I also think it is a design issue with two wheels in the front and only one pushing in the back.

[Latemarch]

Put narrower tires with harder rubber on the front wheels and that oversteer will go away :roflblack:

[altonk]

Scud,
I think the direct steering is a new experience for new pilots also.

I think that a wide wing 50 - 60 " mounted to the frame where the sport rack goes with big end plates would do the trick.

I also need to get the spyder on some scales to check the weight balance.

On the tadpole trike bicycles that I have motorized. the chassis design biased the weight to the front heavily.

This is true with the spyder also I suspect.

this is why the nanny is there as most ppl are used to driving a car with understeer designed in.

[scudrunner]

Altonk,
I agree with you on all points..... but the wing would have to be pretty big to get enough air at turning speeds. How about incorporating this technology?

Overkill? Probably.

[WizardMaster]

I came up with one over a year ago and most laughed at it and said why:dontknow:. On the :spyder2: it was mainly for looks. Now that a few have seen it in person, we have been asked to make it but it is off the drawing board and not one we will pursue. Guess there will only be the 3 prototypes out there! That is until you make yours:2thumbs:.

[COOLMACHINE]

i DID A SEARCH FOR SPOILER, REAR SPOILER AND DID NOT COME UP WITH ONE BUT PROBABLY A GOOD YEAR AGO SOMEONE HAD A REAR SPOILER ON THEIR SILVER SPYDER. LOOKED NICE BUT DO NOT KNOW HOW WELL IT FUNCTIONED. YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK THROUGH THE PICS.

[Roger]

i DID A SEARCH FOR SPOILER, REAR SPOILER AND DID NOT COME UP WITH ONE BUT PROBABLY A GOOD YEAR AGO SOMEONE HAD A REAR SPOILER ON THEIR SILVER SPYDER. LOOKED NICE BUT DO NOT KNOW HOW WELL IT FUNCTIONED. YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK THROUGH THE PICS.
I remember that one i doubt that it had any function at all other than look cool. It was too small to be functional. jmo

[3whlLefty]

:dontknow: I have felt oversteer at times but only in mountain curves that are usually below 40 mph. I guess I can't imagine getting any useful downforce at such low speeds. Adding 50# of weight to the passenger seat area might help tho. I plan to learn to live with it and learn to have fun with it. :spyder:

[SSG Bean]

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

[Capt John]

That's the problem it happens too soon.

By putting more weight on the rear wheel at the apex of the turn it has more grip. You can go faster before you reach the limit of adhesion of the rear tire.

Modern F1 and GT cars put as much as 3000 pounds of total downforce at speed.

Last year on the way home from Spyder in the Smokies. We took the scenic route...Zoso and myself had to ryde the Dragon 1 more time. Both of us loaded down. IMO we seemed to hold the the curves better than when we had run it early in the week (5times). I've wondered if the extra weight does make a big difference. It maybe that we were just more familiar the 6th time around and had a blast taking the Cherohala Skyway home.

[altonk]

More weight on the tires == more traction

[AMTJIM]

My arm and leg length give me all the catamaran action I need.

[altonk]

This beast is fun in the wet. In a sprint car with a death wish kinda way

[BajaRon]

I honestly don't have the problem of overstear unless I jerk the steering too hard. And then I think it is more a case of inertia loading of the front suspension and not lack of downforce on the rear causing oversteer.

I've been able to get a slight drift in smoothly executed, hard cornering. I don't have a problem with the rear moving before the front does (which would be the oversteer you're talking about).

The only place I'd like to see more downforce is at launch, or when at high speed in wet conditions (to reduce hydroplaning).

But really, in this aspect I think the Spyder it is what it is and, for the most part, we need to learn to ride within the parameters it gives us. Done correctly, you can really get all there is out of this machine in most cases.

[AMTJIM]

If you have the money to throw at something, sounds like you may prefer a G&G Quadster or T-Rex Scorpion Turbo, maybe an Ariel Atom or KTM X-Bow.

[Zombo]

....

But really, in this aspect I think the Spyder it is what it is and, for the most part, we need to learn to ride within the parameters it gives us. Done correctly, you can really get all there is out of this machine in most cases.

^this.:2thumbs:

[altonk]

Replace those hard skinny front tires with some wider much softer rubber and the oversteer really starts to shine

[altonk]

So the wing project begins:



I ordered a kewlmetal luggage rack


http://www.kewlmetalstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_42&products_id=109


This is the frame interface

Next I'm ordering this wing 36" wide


http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/831/

According to the data sheet

http://www.pro-werks.com/common/support/SolutionDetail.aspx?SolutionID=25


I should be able to get
32 lbs @ 50 mph
130 lbs @ 100 mph

At 80-90 mph that's about 10 percent of total weight

[canam9]

So the wing project begins:



I ordered a kewlmetal luggage rack


http://www.kewlmetalstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_42&products_id=109


This is the frame interface

Next I'm ordering this wing 36" wide


http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/831/

According to the data sheet

http://www.pro-werks.com/common/support/SolutionDetail.aspx?SolutionID=25


I should be able to get
32 lbs @ 50 mph
130 lbs @ 100 mph

At 80-90 mph that's about 10 percent of total weight
This will be a must see :chat: :ani29:

[BajaRon]

So the wing project begins:

According to the data sheet

http://www.pro-werks.com/common/support/SolutionDetail.aspx?SolutionID=25


I should be able to get
32 lbs @ 50 mph
130 lbs @ 100 mph

At 80-90 mph that's about 10 percent of total weight

I would think these represent clear air values. How are you going to accomplish that?

[jedd]

I really like your idea here and wish you luck, my only concern is do we have enough power at 100 mph to add the drag to create the 100-220# down force?:dontknow:

Jim:thumbup:

[AMTJIM]

So the wing project begins:



I ordered a kewlmetal luggage rack


http://www.kewlmetalstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_42&products_id=109


This is the frame interface

Next I'm ordering this wing 36" wide


http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/831/

According to the data sheet

http://www.pro-werks.com/common/support/SolutionDetail.aspx?SolutionID=25


I should be able to get
32 lbs @ 50 mph
130 lbs @ 100 mph

At 80-90 mph that's about 10 percent of total weight
I wouldn't expect anywhere near those specs, the airflow is too dirty by the time it gets there. Those specs are most definitely direct, clean airflow. Things would be a little different if you were shaped like a vertical stabilizer

[SSG Bean]

This comes to mind. I'd use wing nuts so you can remove it as soon as you get a good look at it.

[altonk]

Gonna put it as far back and up as feasible .
Lower the bars some more to get me more horizontal

Also can change endplates and use a dual element wing

As far as drag Its not that bad check out the specs

[altonk]

Less than 2 lbs of drag at 100 mph at 12 degrees angle of attack


As far as looks hey I like the way they look

[DragonSpyder]

If your serious about faster cornering speeds a wing is not going to help much.

Better shocks, better swaybar, a 4th wheel would help a bunch, even a set of training wheels would probably help more than a wing.

I think it would look cool though so I am all for what you come up with. Good luck with your project!

[altonk]

Every one seems to doubt I can produce down force

A formula one car's rear wing can only be a meter wide the same width I'm using

It's more a matter of how much hp I'm willing to devote to it

[altonk]

BTW I already have the stiffer sway bar penske racing shocks and hankooks softest street tire in 225/45 r 15 all the way around

I also added 3 inches of track and an inch of scrub radius

[COOLMACHINE]

I say go for it and have fun doing it! I always appreciate someone trying something new. There are a lot of smart thinkers in this forum who enjoy a challenge. :popcorn:

[scudrunner]

A formula one car's rear wing can only be a meter wide the same width I'm usingLooking at a F1 car, the entire thing is streamlined to produce the least amount of wind drag and puts the wings (front and rear don't forget) in the best possible location for down force. Plus they don't do much at all at low speeds, regardless of design. You have to have airflow to create the lift/drag. Airplanes don't fly at 40 mph unless they have large corded wings and lots of curve (flaps, slats, slots and other lift producing devices).
But all that being said, it is an interesting project to tackle and I'm interested in the progress and outcome....mainly from a student of aerodynamics perspective.
But if you want wings, there is always the Moller Skycar...

http://moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=102#3_Skycars&Paul_cap

[Raptor]

I will be very interested in what the outcome of this project will be. I have wondered myself how we can get a bit more "useable" downforce for our Spyders, of course the key word being "useable". But I like how you are going to attempt to actually get the wing in the air and make it effective.

The GG Quad is a good example of aero massasging and it's a great look!

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=945&pictureid=10945

Of course they attack the whole downforce issue differently with ground effects and shaping. I would love to see a pic of the wing before you mount it just to see what configuration you have decided on. I think the side plates are going to be important. Angle of attack is obvious of course... anyway, good luck! I'm rooting for you! :2thumbs:

[Raptor]

BTW, I was curious of the goal here. Are you looking for more top end, more stability for cornering or both? I would think the top end would be more of a benefactor here...:popcorn:

[Raptor]

Now nobody laugh at me here but as I said I was thinking about the same things but was going to attack it from a different angle. I was going to see if I could obtain a trunk and completely re-work the shape and experiment with fins and such. The thought of a front wing never really got serious consideration because the frame would have to be extended which would throw off the CG. I was also considering creating undercarriage channels to create better ground effect. A small rear spoiler would also be implemented for balance purposes, one that you could adjust to some degree.

See, this is what happens when you can't sleep at night and your mind starts going in different directions! I'm still thinking about doing it; might just be fun! :D

[altonk]

Raptor,

my goal is better handling in the fast sweepers.
the slower tight corners are going to be hard to generate down force.

the typical distribution of downforce in a modern race car is evenly divided between the front wing , rear wing and diffuser.

I am trying the rear wing first as it is the easiest to implement.

Next is the front wing. I am going to use some carbon fiber tie rods thru the trunk to mount the wing.


last is the diffuser I am not as hopeful here as I have to leave enough ground clearance for street use.

I may use flexible skirts that i can replace when worn colin chapman style.

[altonk]

I am willing to sacrifice about 20 mph in top end to get it.
I don't get much over 100 often just not practical where i ride.

[altonk]

here is a pic of the wing


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=984&pictureid=11349


36" wide 15" chord

if this works well I may make my own endplates and buils a dual element version

[Raptor]

here is a pic of the wing


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=984&pictureid=11349


36" wide 15" chord

if this works well I may make my own endplates and buils a dual element version

That's wild dude! :D Out of all the wings shown on the site there, this is the one I envisioned you going with. You mentioned multi-element which these plates would certainly handle.

In my case at first I was thinking more about top-end than cornering, as there are some places where you can really let the Spyder run free. But I started having too much fun doing the technical stuff cornering and my focus kind of changed. I'm not saying you can't have both; it just seems like there should be a focus on one element and the other can either benefit slightly or even suffer slightly without much consiquence.

Interesting thought on the front wing. I Just wonder if you will have enough room to implement a system that will work effectively without hurting cooling too much.

I agreee on the diffuser as well. There isn't much one can do in the rear becacuse of the rear tire configuration, so the alternative does lend itself to possible ground clearence issues. But I like your thinking as to how you will approach that part. It just may work!

At any rate, some might find this strange but frankly I'm rather excited for you. You are really taking this on and I respect that. :thumbup: So keep on and keep us posted!

[altonk]

A few years ago I was shifter kart racing in a class that allowed aero
We got some pretty good results

[altonk]

I am going to put a push button over ride on the pillion switch

Some one here said it pushes the brake bias to the rear

With the extra bias and down force the rear will generate more braking force at speed before abs kicks in.


So on entry of a corner you do most of your braking early at speed pushing the bias button then trail brake to the apex

You can't carry that much more speed into the corner but your entry is faster

[altonk]

I put on the kewlmetal luggage rack today to mount the wing
It is solid and well Engineered

I also put a bestem carbon fiber rear fender liner on too

I changed to dzus connectors too

Pics tomorrow

The carbon fiber is well made and I have side pods ordered

Gonna go all carbon

[altonk]

some progress

[Raptor]

some progress

Dude this amazing stuff. the brake bias shift is brilliant! I've been thinking about how to segragate the rear from the front so that you can trail brake with much more efficently. I was going to use a lever for the front and use the pedal for the back. But a bias adjustment works just as well.

I also think the base plate will accept the wing most efficiently. What is the material choice for the vertical wing mounts? Of course we all want carbon fibre or titanium! :D Let me know what you have chosen. You have peaked my interest!

[altonk]

I'm gonna put a mode switch on the console so I can use the starter switch to change the bias