My Journey to Good Handling

[ThreeWheels]

UPDATE. BE SURE TO READ POST #9 AND FOLLOWING. Especially the LASER Alignment. Thanks rnet !

I thought I’d take this opportunity to offer my unsolicited opinion on the issue of the RT-S handling. I’ve made these comments before in various threads, but I wanted to consolidate them in one place.
As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee.

I picked up my RT-S on Feb 27. I now have a little over 5000 miles on it, having gone down to the Dragon during mid-April.

When I took the RT for a test ride, it felt a little wiggly to me on the highway. This was my very first ride on a Spyder and I had no idea what to expect. My wife had come with me for the test ride, and she felt comfortable on the back seat and said that she would enjoy coming with me occasionally. She would never come with me on my previous bike, an ST 1100.

That was all the endorsement I needed so I bought it.

I rode it around a little, putting a few hundred miles on it when I came upon this forum. I posted about the wiggly ride, and found that a lot of other new riders had the same impression. I read all the posts about how you have to “get used to the ride”; “ Keep your grip loose”; “Increase the tire pressure “; “It’s a different ride”; You all know the drill, I’m sure you’ve been there.

The bike felt unpredictable, lurching about on it’s own with no rider input. I bumped the tire pressure up, as high as 25 PSI., and set the shocks to position 5. I also increased the rear shock to maximum. The thought was, the wiggly ride was caused by the side wall flexing on the front tires.

I still had a wiggly ride, but it was less so at higher pressure. Having ridden other motorcycles for a few years (I got my MC license in 1978, please don’t do the math) I was not really satisfied .

I had an opportunity to ride the dealer Demo RT while mine was in for it's 600 mile service, and it was a completely different machine. Not an RS, but it was completely trustworthy. My dealer (Bob Gargano, an excellent dealer) agreed that something was wrong, and did an alignment, finding I had 1/8” toe OUT on each of the wheels. He realigned them to 1/16” toe IN. BRP was fully supportive and took care of all charges as a warranty repair.

After that, there was a marked improvement in handling, but still not as good as the Demo had been. I went riding with the my dealer, alternately swapping bikes and we agreed that there was still something wrong with my bike. Eventually we dropped the tire pressure down to 17 PSI and VOILA, it was magic.

Both front and rear shocks remain set to the maximum, the rear tire is set to 25 PSI. I find these settings quite acceptable for either single or two up riding, and DON'T ask my weight, but it's north of 225.

To be sure, the RT has a lot of windage and still gets blown about a bit behind trucks, but it’s a whole different feel. I can tell when the bike is getting blown around from external forces. Before the alignment, the bike felt like it would move about on it’s own as if it truly were a Transformer.

Here’s what I think is the timeline.........................

I received the bike with a bad alignment. The front end had toe OUT. Having toe out means that the two front wheels were fighting each other. Any tire interaction with the road would grab one wheel, and then the other. Increasing the tire pressure rounds out the tire profile, making the contact patch smaller. With less contact between the tire and the road, the bike interacts less with the road and therefore the front wheels don’t fight each other as much. That’s how increasing the tire pressure improves the handling, not stiffening the sidewalls.

Then I got the front end aligned. With a proper alignment, the road anomalies didn’t pull the front end around as much. A major improvement, but still not where I wanted it.

Now, the higher tire pressure was a detriment, because the smaller contact patch kept the bike up on the balls of its feet, making it feel a little twitchy and TOO responsive.

Dropping the tire pressure to 17 PSI flattened the tire, increasing the contact patch keeping the bike planted quite well and pointed exactly where I wanted it. This makes it a little difficult to turn the wheels at a dead stop, but for me, the trade off is greater stability at speed, and I’m way OK with that.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it


As an aside, with over 5000 miles, about 1500 of it around the Dragon, I have no handlebar shake, no tire cupping and NO visible wear on the tires.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[IWN2RYD]

Good post :thumbup:

I am running 18 in the front and 26 in the rear... Runs straight as an arrow and responds as one would hope... However, I am still at #3 on the front shock adjustment, plan to try #4 this weekend. I feel #3 is allowing the front end of the bike to dip to much when my wife is on the bike... Stable of course, just "Hoopty" soft :roflblack::ohyea:

With the wife on the back I run the second from the last setting on the shock (Soft) when she is not I stiffen the ride and go to the second from the top... :2thumbs::spyder2:

[Tom in NM]

Good post :thumbup:

:agree:

[medic 1]

I'm getting conflicting stories on the shock adjustments . The manual states that the stiffest is the the notch with the deepest indent. But the dealers mechanic says that is the softest. Which is it? I would appreciate any input on this and the steps on how to preform this. I know the human body but mechanically I'm way behind the curve. Thanks again

[IWN2RYD]

I'm getting conflicting stories on the shock adjustments . The manual states that the stiffest is the the notch with the deepest indent. But the dealers mechanic says that is the softest. Which is it? I would appreciate any input on this and the steps on how to preform this. I know the human body but mechanically I'm way behind the curve. Thanks again

I am not looking right at mine, nor have I adjusted this particular bike yet. Here is what I do know...

The tighter the spring, the more weight that shocks can handle, with a marginal gain in height. The way this normally works is by turning the adjuster to the next rung (compressing the spring one more notch) as you look down from the top of the shock, clockwise tightens the spring on the adjuster...

So in this case, the adjuster is moved to the left, pressing the spring up closer to the top of the shock, allowing for a better ride if needed because of the weight the shock is trying to control the ride with.

Man that sounds confusing... Sorry... The Sway bar controls the majority of the body roll of the bike, while the spring on the shock is in place mainly to "Soften" the potholes, support the weight of the bike (And riders etc). The Spring Adjuster is there so we can fine tune the "Tightness" of the spring.

The shock itself mainly controls how fast the whole thing reacts to the ups and downs of it all.

For example... A 110lb person would not weight enough on their own to warrant the setting @ #3. The ride would seem "Bouncy" or jittery, or even to hard. While a 250lb person might find it a bit light and find the shock bottoming out every once in a while...

[NancysToy]

The notch closest to the spring is the stiffest, the one farthest from the spring is the softest.

[IWN2RYD]

I hope this helps... I went to the manual and took a snap shot for you....

[widowmaker2011]

I hope this helps... I went to the manual and took a snap shot for you....

While everyone is scrutinizing their suspensions, grab the rear of your RT and shoved it down hard. It should slowly return upwards, not "bounce".... A number of us have had rear shocks lose their rebound dampening which increases the handling issues. :yikes:

[ThreeWheels]

OK, it seems I'm not quite out of the woods yet.
After a year, I found the outside face of the left tire had worn to the wear bars.
The inside face of the left tire and the right tire were fine with plenty of tread.
The bike pulled to the left.

That was with about 10,000 miles total. At that time I had all the tires replaced. Immediately, the left pull stopped.
The pull to the left disappeared.

Since then I've put on about 3000 miles.

At this point, the left tire is beginning to show a little more wear than the right tire in exactly the same pattern as the last tire. There is a very slight tendency to pull to the left.

It appears that the toe-in was set correctly, however the bars may have been cocked a little in one direction during the adjustment. The shop did the best they could at the time, however there were no tools available to do the alignment, so they used a straight edge and a ruler per the BRP instructions.

As I said in another post, it's sort of like building a mnemonic memory circuit with stone knives and bear skins.

BRP seems to be aware of this difficulty, because they are now issuing some kind of alignment jig. It's scheduled for shipment in about 10 days.

I'll leave the Spyder in for other service as well.

After the service, I'll report back in after another 10K miles.

[SteveMac]

While everyone is scrutinizing their suspensions, grab the rear of your RT and shoved it down hard. It should slowly return upwards, not "bounce".... A number of us have had rear shocks lose their rebound dampening which increases the handling issues. :yikes:

Interesting. I just had the first service done on my RT. Maybe it is me getting used to it, or maybe they did something other than what was shown on the service invoice, but my RT is ryding better every day. I run 20 front 25 rear, currently front shocks (2010) are factory set, but I have Elkas on the way (thanks Len and John!), so I expect the ryde to get even better.

However your post caught my eye. I ryde two up more than half the time, so I have 50# in the rear shock. What I notice is though if I push down on the bike by hand forcefully and let it rebound, it appears to "bottom out" or more accurately "top out" . Similar to the bounce you describe. It definitely does not slowly return upwards. So with only 1500 miles on it, I am wondering if I should look at warranty possibilities, or if I like the Elkas as much as I think I will, I may look into an Elka rear setup.

Opinions- Thoughts??:dontknow:

[2NFrnt]

only 1500 miles on it, I am wondering if I should look at warranty possibilities, or if I like the Elkas as much as I think I will, I may look into an Elka rear setup.

Opinions- Thoughts??:dontknow:

SteveMac, I also went thru 3 factory rear shocks in about 3000 miles on my 2010 RTS. I also ride 2 up most of the time, with a combined weight of passengers and luggage of about 425 pounds. I am now running the ELKA 2 Way Plus rear shock and the ELKA 1 Way Plus on the front, thanks to Len and the guys at Cowtown. I also changed my rear tire to a Toyo Proxes 4. I now have a great handing bike that holds the road better and shocks that actually do what they are supposed to do. No Regrets!

[SteveMac]

Hmm. Not only do I have the rebound, topping out issue, but I seem to lose pressure too fast. Not as fast as some on the board have posted, but I'll lose 5 pounds of pressure over probably a three day time frame.

I am assuming you have a pressure cannister on that 2 way Elka rear shock? But it sounds like you have been very satisfied.

Thanks for the excellent endorsement! Time for me to save more nickels and dimes for the next mod...!


SteveMac, I also went thru 3 factory rear shocks in about 3000 miles on my 2010 RTS. I also ride 2 up most of the time, with a combined weight of passengers and luggage of about 425 pounds. I am now running the ELKA 2 Way Plus rear shock and the ELKA 1 Way Plus on the front, thanks to Len and the guys at Cowtown. I also changed my rear tire to a Toyo Proxes 4. I now have a great handing bike that holds the road better and shocks that actually do what they are supposed to do. No Regrets!

[NancysToy]

Hmm. Not only do I have the rebound, topping out issue, but I seem to lose pressure too fast. Not as fast as some on the board have posted, but I'll lose 5 pounds of pressure over probably a three day time frame.

I am assuming you have a pressure cannister on that 2 way Elka rear shock? But it sounds like you have been very satisfied.

Thanks for the excellent endorsement! Time for me to save more nickels and dimes for the next mod...!
If you are losing pressure, you have an air leak. Check the Schrader valve under the seat first, for a loose or bad valve core. Beyond that, the rest of the system plumbing and the air bag need to be checked with soap solution. Hard to find the small leaks, sometimes. Be patient. The topping out should not be happening if the ACS sensor is correctly calibrated and the system is not over-pressure. There was a service bulletin for this issue. Don't know if it applies to your particular Spyder, but it is worth a check. If the rear bounces repeatedly after pressing sharply down, or tops out making a loud clank, the rear shock is probably damaged, and should be replaced.

[SteveMac]

I did check the valve core, but not the rest of the system. I'll give that a shot, but regardless it sounds like I may have a bad shock anyway due to the loud topping out clank. It doesn't really "bounce up and down" just a sharp rebound with the topping out. I thought maybe I had too much pressure, but looking at the posts on here 50# for two up seems about right??


If you are losing pressure, you have an air leak. Check the Schrader valve under the seat first, for a loose or bad valve core. Beyond that, the rest of the system plumbing and the air bag need to be checked with soap solution. Hard to find the small leaks, sometimes. Be patient. The topping out should not be happening if the ACS sensor is correctly calibrated and the system is not over-pressure. There was a service bulletin for this issue. Don't know if it applies to your particular Spyder, but it is worth a check. If the rear bounces repeatedly after pressing sharply down, or tops out making a loud clank, the rear shock is probably damaged, and should be replaced.

[NancysToy]

50# should not top out your shock. Sounds like you have a bad one. That will have nothing to do with your air leak, the shock absorber is separate from the air suspension. You might want to change your valve core just for giggles. Dudley still had a slow leak, and his soap test showed nothing, but when he replaced the valve core the problem went away. Otherwise it is probably a bad fitting. Some have had pinholes.

[ThreeWheels]

Further update:

The alignment tool is now ETA June 3rd.

I think this might be like the airlines. Once they admit to being a little late, the delivery keeps getting pushed further and further back.

I'll probably pick the bike up this weekend and have them call me when the tool gets in, rather than be without it while I wait.

Very frustrating.

[ThreeWheels]

The alignment tool was received by the shop this morning.

[Tonga]

My rear Shock has been replaced twice and I was told the reason was because a revised rear shock came out after the first replacement one was done last spring. I would think a few guys are riding around with bad rebounding rear shocks and don't know it. They probably are compensating with more rear air pressure.

[Tonga]

I forgot to mention that my RT is a Different machine with the new rear shock!

[ThreeWheels]

Here is an update.

I got the bike back on June 10th. I've put about 600 miles on it since then.

I noticed that it felt like the DPS wasn't working. Hard to turn sometimes. Not always, just sometimes.

I jacked the front tire pressure up to 20 PSIG. The bike still holds straight and true on the highway, even two up. Before this last alignment, anything above 17 PSIG felt twitchy

Turning is now easier. But not quite there.

I won't know about the tire wear until the end of summer.

[ThreeWheels]

Finally got the on again off again DPS solved. It was the dreaded loose battery connection.
Now the machine is great. The local twisties are so much easier to ride.
It strikes me that both trips to the dragon were when the DPS was iffy.
I guess I'll have to go again next year !!

[Ga Blue Knight]

I weight 209#s set shock in front to #4 setting rear at same. Front tires to 20psi rear to 30 psi. Spyder runs straight and true little or no bounce

[ThreeWheels]

OK, here is an update.
I got the RT back from the shop and they had foundloose battery connections. I don't think the DPS EVER worked.
Now it does. I'm ashamed to admit I didn't know what I was missing.
Net Net; Now that I can make the tight turns easily, I can feel the body roll instead of concentrating on yanking on the handlebars. Now I can feel what everyone has been talking about the excess body roll.
If anyone has replaced their 2011 shocks with Elkas and wants to sell their OEM 2011 shocks, let me know.
Oh, fixing the loose battery connection seems to have eliminated the run rough occassionally problem, and also got rid of an annoying whine I had in the intercom.

[AndyIsRiding]

OK, here is an update.
I got the RT back from the shop and they had foundloose battery connections. I don't think the DPS EVER worked.
Now it does. I'm ashamed to admit I didn't know what I was missing.
Net Net; Now that I can make the tight turns easily, I can feel the body roll instead of concentrating on yanking on the handlebars. Now I can feel what everyone has been talking about the excess body roll.
If anyone has replaced their 2011 shocks with Elkas and wants to sell their OEM 2011 shocks, let me know.
Oh, fixing the loose battery connection seems to have eliminated the run rough occassionally problem, and also got rid of an annoying whine I had in the intercom.

First set front springs to 5 (max)
Second set tire pressure to 18 front and 28 rear.

Try that.

[ThreeWheels]

First set front springs to 5 (max)
Second set tire pressure to 18 front and 28 rear.

Try that.

Thanks. I apreciate the thought.

I have been using those settings for the last 16,000 miles.

I think I need to take this to the next level. I'm reluctant to buy Elkas or WP shocks.

I may just learn to live with it.

Again, thanks so much for helping. I appreciate the thought.

[lasermic]

I hope this helps... I went to the manual and took a snap shot for you....

Thanks - it is great to know you guys are out there!

[ThreeWheels]

OK, it seems I'm not quite out of the woods yet.
After a year, I found the outside face of the left tire had worn to the wear bars.
The inside face of the left tire and the right tire were fine with plenty of tread.
The bike pulled to the left.
That was with about 10,000 miles total. At that time I had all the tires replaced. Immediately, the left pull stopped.
The pull to the left disappeared.
Since then I've put on about 3000 miles.
At this point, the left tire is beginning to show a little more wear than the right tire in exactly the same pattern as the last tire. There is a very slight tendency to pull to the left.
It appears that the toe-in was set correctly, however the bars may have been cocked a little in one direction during the adjustment. The shop did the best they could at the time, however there were no tools available to do the alignment, so they used a straight edge and a ruler per the BRP instructions.
As I said in another post, it's sort of like building a mnemonic memory circuit with stone knives and bear skins.
BRP seems to be aware of this difficulty, because they are now issuing some kind of alignment jig. It's scheduled for shipment in about 10 days.
I'll leave the Spyder in for other service as well.
After the service, I'll report back in after another 10K miles.


Well, here I am at about 22,500 miles total on the Spyder. I know, that's 2,500 miles past when I said I'd report back in.

Since then I've also upgraded the shocks to a set of 2011 ones. A marked improvement. Maybe not as good as the Elkas, but I got 80% of the Elka improvement for 20% of the price. That's a good value in my book. I'm considering getting the Baja Ron anti-sway bar, but I'm not that aggressive a rider. I prefer touring over aggressive riding, and I use the Spyder as a commuter in the warm weather.

I'm happy to say all the front end problems seem to be sorted out. The Spyder tracks straight and true on the highway, all the way up to 105 mph. For security purposes, don't ask me where on RT 84 coming south of Sturbridge this was, but I needed a long straight stretch of road that sloped downhill. Tire wear is even, and I think I can get another 10K miles out of the tires.

As to the 22,500 miles, yes I am irked that I didn't hit 25K and earn my pin last year. I had a big trip planned in Oct that would have taken me over the top, but I was forced to have my knee replaced instead. Since it's now ski season, I've got other priorities, at least in the near term.

Unless there are any unexpected issues, this will be my last post in this thread.

[MouthPiece]

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to follow up on your thread. I wish that more would do the same. It's one thing to have someone post a thread about an issue never to hear what happened later on. It's a GREAT thing to hear about an issue and then not only hear one year later, but two years later (or miles) and what has happened.

Again, thank you so much for reporting back.

Chris

[Bob Denman]

:agree: thanks, and that 25K pin is in the bag for 2013! :thumbup:

[ThreeWheels]

Since the last update I've made the following modifications:

I went to rnet, Ron's place for a laser alignment and a new rear tire.
A gentleman and well versed in all things Spyder.
What a man cave !
He and his family were welcoming, and it was good to see some other friends, new and old from SpyderQuest.

After all of the work done on my Spyder with the older techniques listed here, there was still some toe-out and the steering sensor was 1.12 degrees out.
Ron was able to do the alignment in less than an hour. A short ride to Arctic Adventures and my steering sensor was reset.
Get a laser alignment. If you can, get one from rnet.

Previously I had installed the BajaRonBar and BajaRonLinks.
In my opinion, that is the single biggest bang for the buck to get better handling and less body roll.

[eagleeye299]

Totally agree!

[dangme55]

[QUOTE=ThreeWheels;210441]UPDATE. BE,SURE TO READ POST #9 AND FOLLOWING

RT for a test ride, it felt a little wiggly to me on the highway. This was my very first ride on a Spyder and I had no idea what to expect. My wife had come with me for the test ride, and she felt comfortable on the back seat and said that she would enjoy coming with me occasionally. She would never come with me on my previous bike, an ST 1100.

That was all the endorsement I needed so I bought it.

I rode it around a little, putting a few hundred miles on it when I came upon this forum. I posted about the wiggly ride, and found that a lot of other new riders had the same impression. I read all the posts about how you have to “get used to the ride”; “ Keep your grip loose”; “Increase the tire pressure “; “It’s a different ride”; You all know the drill, I’m sure you’ve been there.

The bike felt unpredictable, lurching about on it’s own with no rider input. I bumped the tire pressure up, as high as 25 PSI., and set the shocks to position 5. I also increased the rear shock to maximum. The thought was, the wiggly ride was caused by the side wall flexing on the front tires.

I still had a wiggly ride, but it was less so at higher pressure. Having ridden other motorcycles for a few years (I got my MC license in 1978, please don’t do the math) I was not really satisfied .

Both front and rear shocks remain set to the maximum, the rear tire is set to 25 PSI. I find these settings quite acceptable for either single or two up riding, and DON'T ask my weight, but it's north of 225.

To be sure, the RT has a lot of windage and still gets blown about a bit behind trucks, but it’s a whole different feel. I can tell when the bike is getting blown around from external forces. Before the alignment, the bike felt like it would move about on it’s own as if it truly were a Transformer.


I received the bike with a bad alignment. The front end had toe OUT. Having toe out means that the two front wheels were fighting each other. Any tire interaction with the road would grab one wheel, and then the other. Increasing the tire pressure rounds out the tire profile, making the contact patch smaller. With less contact between the tire and the road, the bike interacts less with the road and therefore the front wheels don’t fight each other as much. That’s how increasing the tire pressure improves the handling, not stiffening the sidewalls.

Then I got the front end aligned. With a proper alignment, the road anomalies didn’t pull the front end around as much. A major improvement, but still not where I wanted it.

Now, the higher tire pressure was a detriment, because the smaller contact patch kept the bike up on the balls of its feet, making it feel a little twitchy and TOO responsive.

Dropping the tire pressure to 17 PSI flattened the tire, increasing the contact patch keeping the bike planted quite well and pointed exactly where I wanted it. This makes it a little difficult to turn the wheels at a dead stop, but for me, the trade off is greater stability at speed, and I’m way OK with that. {quote}

Thanks for the good info. I experienced almost the same thing to a tee. My previous bike was a Victory Vision which I loved but too hard for the wife to get on /off and holding up 3/4 ton of vehicle with passengers was getting tough for the 'chronologically enhanced' as I am. Wife was 'all in' with the purchase.

Went through the same drill on alignment right down to the toe out. I have a 2013 so I can't adjust the shocks but I did put on a BajaRon. Much better now - I have been running at 19-20 and 28 +/- rear. I will try dropping down to 17 / 26. I run nitrogen in all my tires which has a bit different compressibility. Changing the tire pressure not only changes the contact patch but also the effective spring rate for the whole bike. The sidewalls act as springs as well. That was something I never knew until I spent a day in the pits with the Corvette Racing Team. They make very small changes in pressure according to the track conditions. I never knew that even small changes could make such a difference.

Thanks again for the post! :clap: