VSS fault - Spyder not starting

[leo76dragon]

Hello All,
I am in search of a solution to get my Spyder started... I have only 700 miles on my Phantom Spyder and it won't start... I'm getting a VSS fault when I try to start my Spyder and it doesnt start..... the engine can rotate over and then just cuts off.... I'm hoping that if I take it to the dealer he doesnt blame my light modifications, and or kewlmetal intake... any suggestions would be great... thank you!
:helpsmilie:

Dennis

[Lamonster]

Are you sure you have a fully charged battery? That would be my first guess.

[leo76dragon]

Are you sure you have a fully charged battery? That would be my first guess.


Hi Lamonster,
My battery is kept on the Battery tender Jr... it's been on the green light....

thanks
Dennis

[Lamonster]

Next thing to check then would be your relays. Try swapping them around.

[dave01]

Make sure any acessories ( fog lights, etc) are turned off. Mine was very picky about starting with them on.

[NancysToy]

Are you sure you have a fully charged battery? That would be my first guess.
:agree: The battery voltage should be at least 12.6 volts (after sitting a while, not fresh off the charger), if the battery is at full charge and capable of holding a charge. If it is properly charged, do a load test. The battery should not drop below 10 volts while cranking, or after being placed on a load tester.

[M2Wild]

Make sure any acessories ( fog lights, etc) are turned off. Mine was very picky about starting with them on.

I always leave mine in the ON position. Electricials can be really kooky with all these onboard computers.

[Donzo]

I had a similar problem last year - it was the battery terminals - they need to be real snug. Good luck finding the problem - it sounds electrical and prob. minor.

[sabunim5]

As others have suggested, check the battery. I love my Tenders; and have them on every vehicle. Recently though I had a green light situation when the battery was not charged. :yikes: I trust the Tender so much I didn't check the battery directly. The light would go green almost immediately, but the battery would only crank a moment or two and would not start the motorcycle. The battery was 8 years old so I just "assumed" it was bad and replaced it. The new battery worked fine but soon acted as though it was weak even though the Tender showed a green light. It turns out that there was corrosion on the in line fuse of the Tender. :opps: As soon as I cleaned the corrosion off the fuse, the Tender went back to charging. I think my eight year old battery was fine, but I had already taken it to be recycled. :( Live and learn, or not.
I hope this helps. :thumbup:

[Neez]

I had a similar problem when my ryde was new. After the dealers replaced the battery and the starter, to no effect, they finally had to replace the tight bearings in the starter drive train. All on warrantee, thank goodness.

[leo76dragon]

Hi everyone,
Thank you for your responses, I will go and check the connections, and the ground wire from the coil as Lamonster and Evan is suggesting, however, I was able to start up the bike after 2 tries, and when it started up the engine was running at 2000 RPMS, then when I throttled it, it jumped to 7000 RPMS, and couldnt come down... so I just shut it off... and now I'm even more perplexed... why would the throttle be stuck?


thanks
Dennis

[NancysToy]

Hi everyone,
Thank you for your responses, I will go and check the connections, and the ground wire from the coil as Lamonster and Evan is suggesting, however, I was able to start up the bike after 2 tries, and when it started up the engine was running at 2000 RPMS, then when I throttled it, it jumped to 7000 RPMS, and couldnt come down... so I just shut it off... and now I'm even more perplexed... why would the throttle be stuck?

Low battery can do that, too. It screws up the ECM and the sensor voltages. I'd suggest you remove the bodywork, remove & clean the battery connections (at the battery), then reconnect and fully charge the battery. If you have a multimeter available, check battery voltages as in my post above. If the voltages aren't up to snuff after all that, replace the battery. If the battery charges and tests OK, get the Spyder to your dealer for diagnostics and repairs.

[leo76dragon]

Low battery can do that, too. It screws up the ECM and the sensor voltages. I'd suggest you remove the bodywork, remove & clean the battery connections (at the battery), then reconnect and fully charge the battery. If you have a multimeter available, check battery voltages as in my post above. If the voltages aren't up to snuff after all that, replace the battery. If the battery charges and tests OK, get the Spyder to your dealer for diagnostics and repairs.


ok, I disconnected both HID foglights, but left the HID headlights plugged in, it started up fine... shut it down... plugged both foglights back in again, and it couldnt start up (VSS fault)... disconnected the foglights, it started up... but with the RPMS running high again... shut it down... checked the battery with the volt meter... its giving me a reading 13.78, turn the spyder off, it gives me a reading for 13.1... so battery looks pretty good.... may be a ground issue with the coil and ballasts of both headlight/foglight HIDs as Evan suggested... got any suggestions on how to add the ground wire?...

thanks
Dennis

[NancysToy]

ok, I disconnected both HID foglights, but left the HID headlights plugged in, it started up fine... shut it down... plugged both foglights back in again, and it couldnt start up (VSS fault)... disconnected the foglights, it started up... but with the RPMS running high again... shut it down... checked the battery with the volt meter... its giving me a reading 13.78, turn the spyder off, it gives me a reading for 13.1... so battery looks pretty good.... may be a ground issue with the coil and ballasts of both headlight/foglight HIDs as Evan suggested... got any suggestions on how to add the ground wire?...

thanks
Dennis
Sounds like an HID foglight ballast(s) may be bad. If this was not a new installation, you had no ground problems before. If you do ground the ballasts to try to cure the problem, be sure and run all the way back to the main frame ground, or a ground bus connected to the main ground. Should be able to tie a #14-12 ground wire to a mounting bolt on each ballast, then run a similar drop to ground. Hope the ground wiring cures your problem.

[dave01]

I went thru all of this a few months ago. If my ballasts touched the frame or any metal, the VSS code and everything else would freak out. I wound up mounting the ballasts up high under the instrument console, to the plastic and didnt have any other issues. Mounting the ballasts on the back side of the trunk works well too. I did the ground wire thing, changed out ballasts and everything else and none of that worked. An easy test is to remove your ballasts from theirmounting spot and place them off the spyder and try to start it. That was how I found the grounding problem with mine.

[leo76dragon]

I went thru all of this a few months ago. If my ballasts touched the frame or any metal, the VSS code and everything else would freak out. I wound up mounting the ballasts up high under the instrument console, to the plastic and didnt have any other issues. Mounting the ballasts on the back side of the trunk works well too. I did the ground wire thing, changed out ballasts and everything else and none of that worked. An easy test is to remove your ballasts from theirmounting spot and place them off the spyder and try to start it. That was how I found the grounding problem with mine.

thanks Dave,
I'll try remounting the 4 ballasts some other place, right now I have them all mounted together on the front part of the frame... should I try to separate them? I will try that, since that is the easiest thing right now.... I'm hoping that will work...

thanks
Dennis

[leo76dragon]

well, I relocated the ballasts to the upper portion of the console.... it's not touching any part of the frame... or any of the other ballasts... battery connections is good... battery tested ok per Scotty's suggestions... and I have tried different things... :dontknow:

1. start with foglights disconnected -starts normal
2. start with foglights on - VSS fault
3. start with foglights off, but then turn on foglights - it dies and gives me a VSS fault error
4. start with foglights off - starts normal, after throttling... engine RPMs shoots up to 4000 RPMS, then 5000 RPMS, and does not come down...

I may have bad ballasts on either the headlights or foglights... I guess
next thing I have to try is the ground wire suggestion from Evan... and I am waiting for a response from Andrew at Custom Dynamics...

thank you for your assistance everyone...

Dennis

[NancysToy]

well, I relocated the ballasts to the upper portion of the console.... it's not touching any part of the frame... or any of the other ballasts... battery connections is good... battery tested ok per Scotty's suggestions... and I have tried different things... :dontknow:

1. start with foglights disconnected -starts normal
2. start with foglights on - VSS fault
3. start with foglights off, but then turn on foglights - it dies and gives me a VSS fault error
4. start with foglights off - starts normal, after throttling... engine RPMs shoots up to 4000 RPMS, then 5000 RPMS, and does not come down...

I may have bad ballasts on either the headlights or foglights... I guess
next thing I have to try is the ground wire suggestion from Evan... and I am waiting for a response from Andrew at Custom Dynamics...

thank you for your assistance everyone...

Dennis
I would be surprised if the headlight ballasts were bad, with these foglight specific symptoms. If you have a heavy jumper wire with alligator clips at each end, you can test grounding them without a lot of effort.

[COOLMACHINE]

I have nothing to bring to this post other than to say I am always amazed at what people know about things. You may as well be speaking Japanese when it comes to this diagnosing and fixing this electrical stuff but I have no doubt, you guys know what you are talking about and will fix the problem. :2thumbs: A bunch of great guys and gals here!

[leo76dragon]

okay... so I called a buddy of mine who is an electronic engineer here in Silicon Valley to help me figure out this grounding issue... and what we discovered is that the wires coming from the ballast to the foglights has so much "noise" that is messes up the computer system in the spyder causing it to shut down with the VSS fault... I guess this is why Custom Dynamics pointed out that the ballasts should not touch the frame or any metal (they are now located in the console area)... my wires coming from the ballast to the foglights were tie wrapped to the frame but wrapped in wire loom... and still it caused electrical noise... we then experimented by pulling the wires away from the frame, start the bike, and turn the foglights on/off, and the bike kept on running as normal.... we then took the wire from one of the foglights and pressed it on the frame, and pressed the foglight switch on/off, and the bike turned off with the VSS fault... even with the addition of a ground wire from the coil to the frame... so tomorrow I will install an anodized/heat resistant wire loom over the current wire loom and make sure it does not touch any metal and just have it suspended under the covers... I hope this does the trick... :pray:

thanks
Dennis

[Firefly]

okay... so I called a buddy of mine who is an electronic engineer here in Silicon Valley to help me figure out this grounding issue... and what we discovered is that the wires coming from the ballast to the foglights has so much "noise" that is messes up the computer system in the spyder causing it to shut down with the VSS fault... I guess this is why Custom Dynamics pointed out that the ballasts should not touch the frame or any metal (they are now located in the console area)... my wires coming from the ballast to the foglights were tie wrapped to the frame but wrapped in wire loom... and still it caused electrical noise... we then experimented by pulling the wires away from the frame, start the bike, and turn the foglights on/off, and the bike kept on running as normal.... we then took the wire from one of the foglights and pressed it on the frame, and pressed the foglight switch on/off, and the bike turned off with the VSS fault... even with the addition of a ground wire from the coil to the frame... so tomorrow I will install an anodized/heat resistant wire loom over the current wire loom and make sure it does not touch any metal and just have it suspended under the covers... I hope this does the trick... :pray:

thanks
Dennis


Thanks for doing all the trial and error... this will help many doing future installs to know what to do.:thumbup:

[bone crusher]

You should tell the manufacturer of the HIDs your discovery as perhaps something should be added to them so that others will be able to avoid this problem going forward...looks like more wire insulation is needed?



okay... so I called a buddy of mine who is an electronic engineer here in Silicon Valley to help me figure out this grounding issue... and what we discovered is that the wires coming from the ballast to the foglights has so much "noise" that is messes up the computer system in the spyder causing it to shut down with the VSS fault... I guess this is why Custom Dynamics pointed out that the ballasts should not touch the frame or any metal (they are now located in the console area)... my wires coming from the ballast to the foglights were tie wrapped to the frame but wrapped in wire loom... and still it caused electrical noise... we then experimented by pulling the wires away from the frame, start the bike, and turn the foglights on/off, and the bike kept on running as normal.... we then took the wire from one of the foglights and pressed it on the frame, and pressed the foglight switch on/off, and the bike turned off with the VSS fault... even with the addition of a ground wire from the coil to the frame... so tomorrow I will install an anodized/heat resistant wire loom over the current wire loom and make sure it does not touch any metal and just have it suspended under the covers... I hope this does the trick... :pray:

thanks
Dennis

[Firefly]

Seems the Spyder electronics are pretty sensitive to outside interference. If such external electronics can cause a VSS fault - I wonder what other electronic devices could affect. Something to keep in the back of our minds should strange faults or problems arise. Another good reason to only install ONE modification at a time.

Perhaps shielding the ballasts somehow would help too?

[leo76dragon]

You should tell the manufacturer of the HIDs your discovery as perhaps something should be added to them so that others will be able to avoid this problem going forward...looks like more wire insulation is needed?

These are from Custom Dynamics.... probably the same ones as NMN... I like them a lot, visibilty is 10x better than stock... so I'll do my best to make it work with the spyder.... I'm sure the hid headlight ballasts are causing a lot of interference as well so I'll try to double up on the wire loom on that as well....

[leo76dragon]

well it didnt work, so out came the HID foglights, back with the stock headlights... now it looks odd, bright white headlights, and stock dim foglights... probably too much draw on the system.... it was driving my ECM nuts... it was like the accelerator was stuck...... even with the coil grounded..... I'm hoping it's a ballast issue... gonna return it and try another... we'll see what happens 2nd time around.........
:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

[leo76dragon]

well I got a second set of ballasts from Custom Dynamics, installed it... and.... same problems... VSS faults, and the stuck accelerator issue... the Spyder just doesnt like a second set of HIDs... even with the ground wire from the coil and a fully charged battery, so back goes the original foglight bulbs and the Spyder is happy again... I guess I'm gonna have to live without the 4 HIDs... :gaah:

[Tom in NM]

well I got a second set of ballasts from Custom Dynamics, installed it... and.... same problems... VSS faults, and the stuck accelerator issue... the Spyder just doesnt like a second set of HIDs... even with the ground wire from the coil and a fully charged battery, so back goes the orignal foglight bulbs and the Spyder is happy again... I guess I'm gonna have to live without the 4 HIDs... :gaah:

. . . . but, I was wondering if you could tell if any of your other mods ( like the alarm ) in conjunction with with HID lights/ballasts triggered this problem?

This is not my field, but the ballast may be boosting interference or effecting or inter-reacting with one of your other mods - again, the alarm system being the prime candidate.

Tom

[Motavar]

I found the same issue with my 09 GS (RS/Phantom).
HIDS in the head lights and fog lights. When the fog lights are on and I attempt to start the Spyder I get VSS/Check Engine warnings.

I've also experienced the high RPMs on start with the fogs on.
Also experienced a complete shutdown on the highway when I turned the fog lights on. (had to pull over and pull the relay out).


* I'm going to rewire the fogs to directly to a new relay and pull power directly from the battery instead of using the Spyders wiring.

[Lamonster]

I found the same issue with my 09 GS (RS/Phantom).
HIDS in the head lights and fog lights. When the fog lights are on and I attempt to start the Spyder I get VSS/Check Engine warnings.

I've also experienced the high RPMs on start with the fogs on.
Also experienced a complete shutdown on the highway when I turned the fog lights on. (had to pull over and pull the relay out).


* I'm going to rewire the fogs to directly to a new relay and pull power directly from the battery instead of using the Spyders wiring.
And that's why some of us pay a little more for the ESI HID's. They work right out of the box without rewiring or trying to work around the cheaper aftermarket kits.

Plug and Play from ESI :thumbup:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6&pictureid=12083

[SpyderWolf]

And that's why some of us pay a little more for the ESI HID's. They work right out of the box without rewiring or trying to work around the cheaper aftermarket kits.

Plug and Play from ESI :thumbup:


:dontknow:
I thought Leo was using the Custom Dynamic's ones, which should be the same as the ESI ones, and he couldn't get his to work either. Yet I have seen quite a few others, like yours, that don't have any problems at all. Does this sound like it is mainly an issue of how they are installed, whether that be grounding or anything else?

[Lamonster]

:dontknow:
I thought Leo was using the Custom Dynamic's ones, which should be the same as the ESI ones, and he couldn't get his to work either. Yet I have seen quite a few others, like yours, that don't have any problems at all. Does this sound like it is mainly an issue of how they are installed, whether that be grounding or anything else?
Looks like cheap ebay HID's to me :dontknow:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275206&postcount=1

[SpyderWolf]

well I got a second set of ballasts from Custom Dynamics, installed it... and.... same problems... VSS faults, and the stuck accelerator issue... the Spyder just doesnt like a second set of HIDs... even with the ground wire from the coil and a fully charged battery, so back goes the original foglight bulbs and the Spyder is happy again... I guess I'm gonna have to live without the 4 HIDs... :gaah:


Looks like cheap ebay HID's to me :dontknow:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275206&postcount=1

Sorry Lamont, I should have quoted the post I was talking about like I am doing now. This is Leo, the original poster's last comment on the issue. He was trying to use the Custom Dynamic's HID kits, and apparently couldn't get them to work even after switching out the ballasts. :dontknow:

I already know the other thread quite well. :D

[Lamonster]

Sorry Lamont, I should have quoted the post I was talking about like I am doing now. This is Leo, the original poster's last comment on the issue. He was trying to use the Custom Dynamic's HID kits, and apparently couldn't get them to work even after switching out the ballasts. :dontknow:

I already know the other thread quite well. :D
Motavar (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/member.php?u=6147) bumped this thread up from Feb. and that's who I was responding to seeing he just made that other post.

You're right, the CD are the same and they can have issues too but when you buy HID's from a Spyder vendor you're going to get help when things don't go right because they know the Spyder. That's worth something right there. :doorag:

[SpyderWolf]

Motavar (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/member.php?u=6147) bumped this thread up from Feb. and that's who I was responding to seeing he just made that other post.

You're right, the CD are the same and they can have issues too but when you buy HID's from a Spyder vendor you're going to get help when things don't go right because they know the Spyder. That's worth something right there. :doorag:

Thanks, and I understand that completely. I didn't pay attention to the original posting dates either. :opps:

[leo76dragon]

:dontknow:
I thought Leo was using the Custom Dynamic's ones, which should be the same as the ESI ones, and he couldn't get his to work either. Yet I have seen quite a few others, like yours, that don't have any problems at all. Does this sound like it is mainly an issue of how they are installed, whether that be grounding or anything else?

sorry I didnt post a conclusion from last year... but to get it working, I ended placing the ballasts in areas where it's not touching the frame and I used a lot of wire loom to keep the wires away from the frame... and I must have had a bad bulb, so I used another set from a different company and the HIDs are working great now... Custom Dynamics helped out a little bit, but in the end I just figured it myself... hopefully... LOL... but no problems and the bike works great... :2thumbs:

[SpyderWolf]

sorry I didnt post a conclusion from last year... but to get it working, I ended placing the ballasts in areas where it's not touching the frame and I used a lot of wire loom to keep the wires away from the frame... and I must have had a bad bulb, so I used another set from a different company and the HIDs are working great now... Custom Dynamics helped out a little bit, but in the end I just figured it myself... hopefully... LOL... but no problems and the bike works great... :2thumbs:

Thanks for the update Leo, I am glad to hear you were able to get things sorted out. :thumbup:

[Machinegunner]

We had the same problems with failure to start and fault codes. But as I said in a previous post, when I installed 30amp relay and a direct fused line from the battery all interference to computers went away. Frenchies HID headlights are triggered with the time delay relay and they light as soon as the key is turned on. This way high voltage spike is over before trying to start the motor. It also leaves the headlights on for about 20 sec. after the key is turned off, just like an expensive car. machinegunner

[bruiser]

:dontknow:
I thought Leo was using the Custom Dynamic's ones, which should be the same as the ESI ones, and he couldn't get his to work either. Yet I have seen quite a few others, like yours, that don't have any problems at all. Does this sound like it is mainly an issue of how they are installed, whether that be grounding or anything else?


Sounds that way to me. Shielded wire, though expensive, may solve the problem. In general, good grounding is a must. Ground points have to be clean and tight in order to work properly. Wire size is important too. I've been called to work on machines that someone has modified in some way or tried to fix and had a poor ground. An easy fix if you just pay attention. If you add a ground somewhere other than the main ground or buss, and you can't clean the grounding point try using an internal toothed washer between the wire and frame. The teeth will dig in to the metal. I've used this trick before.

[Jbandauskas]

Hello All,
I am in search of a solution to get my Spyder started... I have only 700 miles on my Phantom Spyder and it won't start... I'm getting a VSS fault when I try to start my Spyder and it doesnt start..... the engine can rotate over and then just cuts off.... I'm hoping that if I take it to the dealer he doesnt blame my light modifications, and or kewlmetal intake... any suggestions would be great... thank you!
:helpsmilie:

Dennis

I was having issues starting. I had a metal key ring on the key. I replaced with a plastic ring and have have not had any more issues. Possible interference?