New Guy ... Some observations

[RShrimp]

Hello all, Randy here.
Been reading the board for a few days .... first post.
Background:
New to Spyders ..... old to bikes
Retired Engineer from very large corporation.
Dont have a Spyder yet but am shopping.
Just sold my 3rd Valkyrie and still have a Vstrom
Been using internet forums for a long time, just new to this one.

Lamonster????? Are you the same Lamont that was so in to Valkyries a few years back? I am the same RShrimp .......

Obsevations:
I see a whole bunch of people discussing the steering issue (as we should be!) Let me provide a bit of insight as to how a large corporation handles this type of issue. (I do not work nor ever have worked for BRP)
My large corporation was 100X there size and only has 2 letters.(99% chance you have something in your house with those 2 letters on it.)
I love riddles!

Issue first reported: Dealer on their own. All they can do is replace parts. They can't re-engineer anything.

Corp starts getting a bunch of units back under parts return.
They bench test and they work fine (on the bench)

Corp blames ignorant dealers and does training.

Still have issues. Corp realizes this may be a safety issue and the Lawyers get involved. (This slows everything down to a crawl as any statement or even an e-mail must now be approved by legal)

Engineering blames manufacturing. (Ask me how I know this)

Finally we get a unit in and it fails the test, or a new test is developed that should have been done in the first place. "Housten we have a problem"

Legals response: How do we not admit anything is wrong but get these things off the road until a fix is available?

1. Stop production of the bad part
2. Send out a letter to the dealer to change the bad part
3. Send out a letter to owners to return to dealer if they have this issue
4. Backorder the part so the bikes sit at the dealer waiting on parts
5. (and this is the good part) develop and manufacture a new part that hopefully works)

All this takes time. More time once the lawyers get involved.
They can never admit there is a problem because it is a safety issue.
What I see is them hot on the trail of a fix.
When the re-engineerd part becomes available they may not even admit that it is a new part until they have made darn sure that it solves the issue.

It's just CYA to the max. It is not the corps fault, it is the fault of the sue happy.


In a nut shell, it's just the way corps have to do business. I think the fix is coming, they just can't tell us a fix is coming because that would be admiting that there is a problem. The bigger the wheel the slower it turns.

[docdoru]

welcome GE?

[Smylinacha]

welcome That's what I was gonna say too - GE. My folks live in Sarasota - Siesta Key - Love it down there. Hmmmm, what the heck am I still doing in CT then?:dontknow: Oh yeah, I have a job and have to work for many more years until retirement.

Not sure I agree w/ the sue happy thing. People sue cuz they either get hurt or the product doesn't work after they spent all their hard earned money on it. But regardless, if it gets the company to find a final fix, then it's cool. And yes I know that if you throw a lawyer into the mix it can slow things down big time .... all that due diligence and stuff.:yikes:

[bone crusher]

Hello all, Randy here.
Been reading the board for a few days .... first post.
Background:
New to Spyders ..... old to bikes
Retired Engineer from very large corporation.
Dont have a Spyder yet but am shopping.
Just sold my 3rd Valkyrie and still have a Vstrom
Been using internet forums for a long time, just new to this one.

Lamonster????? Are you the same Lamont that was so in to Valkyries a few years back? I am the same RShrimp .......

Obsevations:
I see a whole bunch of people discussing the steering issue (as we should be!) Let me provide a bit of insight as to how a large corporation handles this type of issue. (I do not work nor ever have worked for BRP)
My large corporation was 100X there size and only has 2 letters.(99% chance you have something in your house with those 2 letters on it.)
I love riddles!

Issue first reported: Dealer on their own. All they can do is replace parts. They can't re-engineer anything.

Corp starts getting a bunch of units back under parts return.
They bench test and they work fine (on the bench)

Corp blames ignorant dealers and does training.

Still have issues. Corp realizes this may be a safety issue and the Lawyers get involved. (This slows everything down to a crawl as any statement or even an e-mail must now be approved by legal)

Engineering blames manufacturing. (Ask me how I know this)

Finally we get a unit in and it fails the test, or a new test is developed that should have been done in the first place. "Housten we have a problem"

Legals response: How do we not admit anything is wrong but get these things off the road until a fix is available?

1. Stop production of the bad part
2. Send out a letter to the dealer to change the bad part
3. Send out a letter to owners to return to dealer if they have this issue
4. Backorder the part so the bikes sit at the dealer waiting on parts
5. (and this is the good part) develop and manufacture a new part that hopefully works)

All this takes time. More time once the lawyers get involved.
They can never admit there is a problem because it is a safety issue.
What I see is them hot on the trail of a fix.
When the re-engineerd part becomes available they may not even admit that it is a new part until they have made darn sure that it solves the issue.

It's just CYA to the max. It is not the corps fault, it is the fault of the sue happy.


In a nut shell, it's just the way corps have to do business. I think the fix is coming, they just can't tell us a fix is coming because that would be admiting that there is a problem. The bigger the wheel the slower it turns.

First of all, welcome to spyderlovers! Second, that's some good insight...we have seen this with vehicles of all sorts. The key is as long as the manufacturer is aware of the issues and they work to resolve them, then all should be fine. We've had now two updates (one mandatory) to address issues...BRP is not blind to our concerns, and this is a good thing.

Many who put out a lot of money for a Spyder that isn't working have a right to be upset...let's just hope the dealer and/or BRP can right the wrong before it gets too nasty. Luckily, I think the vast majority of Spyder owners are happy...only a small sample of all spyder owners is on this board, and obviously, many come here to vent...we all own such a great vehicle, I only hope it meets everyones' expectations in due time...

[Big Arm]

welcome TI ?

[Lamonster]

Lamonster????? Are you the same Lamont that was so in to Valkyries a few years back? I am the same RShrimp .......


welcome
Good to see you checking out the site Randy and I agree with your big company protocol.:gaah:

Yes I'm the same Lamonster. You are Randy Shrimplin if I remember right. :doorag:
http://www.bigbikeriders.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=6&pictureid=595

[BumbleBee]

welcome

[BLACK WIDOW]

Hello all, Randy here.
Been reading the board for a few days .... first post.
Background:
New to Spyders ..... old to bikes
Retired Engineer from very large corporation.
Dont have a Spyder yet but am shopping.
Just sold my 3rd Valkyrie and still have a Vstrom
Been using internet forums for a long time, just new to this one.

Lamonster????? Are you the same Lamont that was so in to Valkyries a few years back? I am the same RShrimp .......

Obsevations:
I see a whole bunch of people discussing the steering issue (as we should be!) Let me provide a bit of insight as to how a large corporation handles this type of issue. (I do not work nor ever have worked for BRP)
My large corporation was 100X there size and only has 2 letters.(99% chance you have something in your house with those 2 letters on it.)
I love riddles!

Issue first reported: Dealer on their own. All they can do is replace parts. They can't re-engineer anything.

Corp starts getting a bunch of units back under parts return.
They bench test and they work fine (on the bench)

Corp blames ignorant dealers and does training.

Still have issues. Corp realizes this may be a safety issue and the Lawyers get involved. (This slows everything down to a crawl as any statement or even an e-mail must now be approved by legal)

Engineering blames manufacturing. (Ask me how I know this)

Finally we get a unit in and it fails the test, or a new test is developed that should have been done in the first place. "Housten we have a problem"

Legals response: How do we not admit anything is wrong but get these things off the road until a fix is available?

1. Stop production of the bad part
2. Send out a letter to the dealer to change the bad part
3. Send out a letter to owners to return to dealer if they have this issue
4. Backorder the part so the bikes sit at the dealer waiting on parts
5. (and this is the good part) develop and manufacture a new part that hopefully works)

All this takes time. More time once the lawyers get involved.
They can never admit there is a problem because it is a safety issue.
What I see is them hot on the trail of a fix.
When the re-engineerd part becomes available they may not even admit that it is a new part until they have made darn sure that it solves the issue.

It's just CYA to the max. It is not the corps fault, it is the fault of the sue happy.


In a nut shell, it's just the way corps have to do business. I think the fix is coming, they just can't tell us a fix is coming because that would be admiting that there is a problem. The bigger the wheel the slower it turns.

I have no doubt that what you say is exactly the way it is in industry. My experience is a little different (Government-DOD). They would take the products out of service if safety was suspected. Might save a life.

By the way welcome I'm sure you will be a valuable member here.

Michael:doorag:

[Smylinacha]

Yep - DOD is one of our customers at work and yep - that is what they do.

And we as a company do the exact same thing - regardless of what DOD does.


I have no doubt that what you say is exactly the way it is in industry. My experience is a little different (Government-DOD). They would take the products out of service if safety was suspected. Might save a life.

By the way welcome I'm sure you will be a valuable member here.

Michael:doorag:

[mike3069]

welcome

I agree with your scenario 100%. I'll bet there's a lot of BRP cheerleaders here that will have trouble with it, though.

I'm a cheerleader that has no trouble with this scenario.


The important thing that needs to be considered, is that while the Corporation is busy covering their own a$$, they are leaving yours hanging out there with potentially fatal consequences, while they concoct a solution that's good for their bottom line..........nojoke

The problem is that they can't tell us they are working their a$$ off to find a solution Its a bit of a catch 22. Say anything that says you are digging at the problem and legally that would put them at the mercy of sue happy lawyers. Don't tell us your working on the problem, we get all pi$$ed off because they arn't paying enough attention (publicly, at least) to our concerns.

In this scenario, it is probably a good sign that there is very little communication from BRP officially because it would mean, as Randy states, that they are "hot on the trail of a fix".

[MouthPiece]

A very cogent obeservation I might add. I agree 100% with the lawyer observation as well. What's brown and black and looks good on a lawyer? :lecturef_smilie:

[krb1945]

It appears you worked and retired from the same place as my father in law, GE.

Updates have corrected some of the steering issues but updates did not fix/correct some owners problems. In some cases it took replacement parts for replacement parts to correct their problems.

Sometimes a sub contractor has a bad run of components. Once these assemblies are weeded out of the system the problem will be resolved.

BRP recognizes there is an issue with some of the assemblies and is working to resolve the problem. Customer feedback and patience is the key to resolving the problems being encountered by many spyder owners.

I know that owners with repetitive steering problems are probably disillusioned and just want the machine fixed so they can ride safely. I know that is what I would want. /Ken

[MarkLawson]

Welcome & thanks for the insight.

[boborgera]

First we bash BRP,Then we bash the people who bash BRP, Then the people who bashed BRP bash the people who bashed them for bashing BRP, Now we'll start bashing Lawyers who will start bashing people who are bashing lawyers, Than the people who were bashed by the lawyers will start bashing back at the lawyers who bashed back at them.

OK i'm all bashed out:gaah:
P/S leave the Dobermans out of this bashing. they can't type.:roflblack:

[NancysToy]

As long as we're bashing, can I gripe about this winter weather? :gaah:

[jima1153]

welcome Thanks for the insight Randy. I agree.

[brutus450]

As long as we're bashing, can I gripe about this winter weather? :gaah:

I thought you aren't into bashing?

[Way2Fast]

As I see it, when and if a "fix all" is found, how is BRP going to announce it? If what Randy said about big corporations at the start of this topic is true (and I believe it is) will BRP just announce another recall and not give an explanation? If they did, wouldn't it leave them open to liability by admitting there was a product defect? Actually in the former recall under direction of the NHSA, BRP did give the reason for it and admitted that a computer update was required to fix a steering problem. So they were admitting guilt for the problem....right? As a company on thin ice, I can see why they must thread lightly.

[SpyderWolf]

welcome to you Randy.

Most likely they will issue a recall, because by then the lawyers will have worked out all of the technical language in the statement to attempt to prevent any harm to the corporation. Other companies have had troubles like this in the past, and did not publicize what was going on until after the recall notice was issued. Think back to the Ford Pinto issues. ;)

[RShrimp]

WOW, This is an active forum. I have obviously chosen the "right one" for the Spyder.
Thanks so much for the warm welcome.

Yes it was GE:clap:

And Yes Lamont Randy Shrimplin! Looks like you have done well in the motorcycle community. Congrats!:congrats:
I just searched for the Lamonster M109 hand brake mod (which I did not find) and got a bunch of hits on several motorcycle forums.

I left GE 3 years ago and spent the last 3 working for the Pediatric Brain Tumor Foundation in the Ride for Kids program organizing charity motorcycle rides. Was very rewarding and also great fun.

Bought OIL stocks 10 years ago. Just playing now:ohyea:

[krb1945]

I moved to Florida for warm winter weather... got up this morning and it was 24 and it is 30 now. I'm to cold to bash it... Someone please bash the cold for me.

Just kidding... you can bet BRP is working hard on this problem because it is a matter of their profitability and survival.

[Roaddog2]

welcome GE?:agree:welcome and your post makes a lot of sense :thumbup:

[Lamonster]

WOW, This is an active forum. I have obviously chosen the "right one" for the Spyder.
Thanks so much for the warm welcome.

Yes it was GE:clap:

And Yes Lamont Randy Shrimplin! Looks like you have done well in the motorcycle community. Congrats!:congrats:
I just searched for the Lamonster M109 hand brake mod (which I did not find) and got a bunch of hits on several motorcycle forums.

I left GE 3 years ago and spent the last 3 working for the Pediatric Brain Tumor Foundation in the Ride for Kids program organizing charity motorcycle rides. Was very rewarding and also great fun.

Bought OIL stocks 10 years ago. Just playing now:ohyea:
http://www.pbtfus.org/rideforkids/photogallery/2007/las-vegas/lasvegas-07_main.jpg
Brain tumor survivor Hannah shares a smile with national Ride for Kids® Manager Randy Shrimplin during the Celebration of Life program.
:doorag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2NBDlIwxvI

[Smylinacha]

LOL! That was good! :clap::roflblack:


First we bash BRP,Then we bash the people who bash BRP, Then the people who bashed BRP bash the people who bashed them for bashing BRP, Now we'll start bashing Lawyers who will start bashing people who are bashing lawyers, Than the people who were bashed by the lawyers will start bashing back at the lawyers who bashed back at them.

OK i'm all bashed out:gaah:
P/S leave the Dobermans out of this bashing. they can't type.:roflblack:

[Smylinacha]

Yeah boy is it cold out there. I decided to walk home from HDX's sister house so I could smoke a ciggy - it was COLD. And now I got a stomach ache from all the little weenie crescent roll things I ate over there, not to mention pretzels, chips and dip, fritos, no dinner for me!


As long as we're bashing, can I gripe about this winter weather? :gaah:

[Arachnid]

I know to those who are affected this is very important to them.
Say BRP has manufactured 12000 Spyders give or take a few.
130 of them have stearing problems. I dont know the exact number.
I would think that it should be easy and worth while for them to take care of those people no matter what it took. Heck, Give them a new Spyder!
It should be worth it just to keep them happy. After all, as has been, said "they are a BIG corporation."

My 2¢

Mike

[Smylinacha]

I like that answer! :2thumbs:

I know to those who are affected this is very important to them.
Say BRP has manufactured 12000 Spyders give or take a few.
130 of them have stearing problems. I dont know the exact number.
I would think that it should be easy and worth while for them to take care of those people no matter what it took. Heck, Give them a new Spyder!
It should be worth it just to keep them happy. After all, as has been, said "they are a BIG corporation."

My 2¢

Mike

[wyliec]

I know to those who are affected this is very important to them.
Say BRP has manufactured 12000 Spyders give or take a few.
130 of them have stearing problems. I dont know the exact number.
I would think that it should be easy and worth while for them to take care of those people no matter what it took. Heck, Give them a new Spyder!
It should be worth it just to keep them happy. After all, as has been, said "they are a BIG corporation."

My 2¢

Mike

The only problem is it's not just those 130?; this may happen to others who have never experienced an issue, like myself.

[jnt]

welcome Randy! Any friend of Lamont's is a friend of ours. Plus, you like Spyders. I think you are in!! (LOVED the corporate story - so true!):2thumbs: and :agree:. BTDT. Great work with PBTF, by the way!:clap:

[LDFIREWORKS]

welcome :2thumbs: :congrats:

[Roger]

welcome Randy i Believe in everything you wrote but that is easy for me cause i don't have a spyder yet. And yes i'am still getting one because i believe what randy has said will happen. I do wish they could move along and help the people that already have their spyders because although i will get one it is a bit depressing to hear all the complaints but thats ok cause i'am sure i would feel the same way if i had mine. i will pray for a solution and patience for all. :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:

[SpyderGirl]

First we bash BRP,Then we bash the people who bash BRP, Then the people who bashed BRP bash the people who bashed them for bashing BRP, Now we'll start bashing Lawyers who will start bashing people who are bashing lawyers, Than the people who were bashed by the lawyers will start bashing back at the lawyers who bashed back at them.

OK i'm all bashed out:gaah:
P/S leave the Dobermans out of this bashing. they can't type.:roflblack:

I was going to say Rottweiler. :roflblack:

Anyway....... welcome

[ntxYguy2009]

welcome !

David

[SpyderWolf]

I was going to say Rottweiler. :roflblack:

Anyway....... welcome

Rottwieler had my vote as well. :D

[RShrimp]

welcome Randy i Believe in everything you wrote but that is easy for me cause i don't have a spyder yet. And yes i'am still getting one because i believe what randy has said will happen. I do wish they could move along and help the people that already have their spyders because although i will get one it is a bit depressing to hear all the complaints but thats ok cause i'am sure i would feel the same way if i had mine. i will pray for a solution and patience for all. :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:

I dont have one yet either but I am shopping. I have 2 bikes now and have to sell one of them first (Thought I had that done but the guy bailed)
I read and post in a whole bunch of forums. Generally you hear any and all the bad but not much of the good.
I have a 2009 Dodge Dually and post regularly on the Cummins Forum.
Spyders have DPS, Cummins has DPF. If you read the forum you would never buy one, but really it is a great truck. Espeically since some parts fell off (DPF, EGR)

I am going to buy a spyder. If I have issues with the DPS then I might just tear it all off and put something else in there. (Power rack and pinion from a ford escort or something)

The Dodge has the CANbus system too and it can be fooled.

We have them making over 1000lbs of tourque and code free!