Won't downshift? Try this "fix" - UPDATE - caused Turn Signal failure!

[BamaJohn]

Bike: 2020 Spyder RT with SE6
Problem: Intermittent won't downshift manually. Now won't shift at all manually.
Diagnosis: Downshift paddle doesn't fully engage shift switch membrane. I can disassemble the LH multifunction switch assembly and shift up & down with my finger tip.

In 2018 a TSB was issued regarding this problem with Spyder's (F3 & RT)-Bulletin 2018-005. I have not read of later 2020 RT's having this issue, but thought I'd post what fixed my problem.

My issue began a couple of months ago with around 13000 miles on it. Once and again it would take 2-4 tries to manually downshift. On a 600 mile round trip Thursday and Friday, manually downshifting was almost impossible and reverse was a frustrating, multiple-attempt, interspersed with a few verbal assaults.
After learning that the LH multifunction switch assembly is $560, I set out to "McGiver it" if possible. I determined that I could manually shift with my fingertip directly on the membrane pad shown in photo 4, and that pointed to the paddle not fully engaging the microswitch on the downshift side.
I found that a common BB was a tiny bit larger than the ball bearing in the switch assembly so, by replacing the downshift ball bearing with the BB, the switch membrane was closer to the paddle mechanism. VOILA! It now shifts smoothly up & down every time! Photo 6 shows the only tools required. Hope this helps someone else.
I'll update this thread after putting some miles on it.


UPDATE 5/29/23: As is sometimes the case that alterations have unforeseen issues, I learned this morning that the turn signals don't work after this fix, and I owe it to you to point that out. Not being able to downshift manually is not acceptable to me, but not having turn signals is not acceptable either. The issue is that the turn signals use the same ball bearings as contacts for both shifting and turn signals.

[Isopedella]

Now that Post is totally awesome .


Thank you Sir.

Late edit.

Did you get to measure the size of the balls at all?
177 / 4.5 perhaps?

[BamaJohn]

Now that Post is totally awesome .


Thank you Sir.

Late edit.

Did you get to measure the size of the balls at all?
177 / 4.5 perhaps?

Yes, meant to include that data... OEM ball bearing is 3.96mm and the BB is 4.38mm

[BazF]

Brilliant, Brilliant post. thanks.

[Lew L]

.

Thank you!!!!!

[IGETAROUND]

John, did you replace both ball bearings with BB's or just the downshift one?? My F3-T is in the shop for a second time with shifting problems. If they tell me there's nothing wrong that they could find, as I was told recently in Houston, then I do believe that I will be delving into mine for a fix.

Al in Kazoo

[gkamer]

An absolute brilliant solution. And very nicely explained too.

[BamaJohn]

IMPORTANT: see original post for an update at the bottom. jb

[IGETAROUND]

IMPORTANT: see original post for an update at the bottom. jb

Well that's sucky, fixes the shifting but disables the turn signals. Please keep us up dated if you find a work around.

Al in Kazoo

[Isopedella]

Small cup shaped spacer. Possibly shaped with a ball-peen hammer from a cut up Baked Bean can for instance?

[BamaJohn]

Thanks to all. I'm embarrassed and apologize for not waiting a few days to make the original post. My elation at having the downshifting issue resolved made me want to share it with others having the issue.
I do have a couple of ideas floating around, but am going riding today with a couple of buddies, so will work on solving the turn signal issue tomorrow.
The photo below shows the assembly with the back cover removed and the micro switch pulled back. The two arrows point to the two ball bearings, the lower-right of which is the (larger) BB for downshifting. it is stuck in the housing, causing the turn signal apparatus (hidden below) to malfunction. The ball bearings must float in the housing.
I do think a solution can be found ("glass half-full") and will post again later in any regard.

202971

[K80Shooter]

I just purchased a set of these, the sizes are listed on the top lid, is there something here that might be between the bb and oem ball?
If so, I could mail you a couple if needed.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXDF1YFL?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[EdMat]

I just purchased a set of these, the sizes are listed on the top lid, is there something here that might be between the bb and oem ball?
If so, I could mail you a couple if needed.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXDF1YFL?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Looks like you will have a bunch of the stock size balls. 3.96 mm The next size up in that box is much larger than a BB.

[K80Shooter]

Looks like you will have a bunch of the stock size balls. 3.96 mm The next size up in that box is much larger than a BB.

I didn't purchase these for that purpose but like you said, I'll have a bunch of spares...lol.
I thought just maybe one might work.

[DGoebel]

I wonder if a straight up 4mm ball would fit and work? Amazon has this
https://a.co/d/0qHnlb1

[ransman]

Have you taken a look at the springs for those balls. I had shifting issues previously on my 2014 RTL and one of the springs was compressed (broken) replaced it and the issue was fixed.

[BamaJohn]

Final update on original post

I'm sorry to report that all attempts to diagnose and remedy the LH multi-function switch issue of not downshifting manually, have failed (fixing the shifting issue just transferred the problem to the turn signals) and I ordered a new Multi-function switch assembly yesterday from a local dealer (PN 710008090) at a cost of $509.99 plus tax). I will install it myself, and already have the failed switch removed.
I don't fault the local dealer for BRP's failure to address and stand behind a known fault of this multi-function switch cluster.... BMW does the same thing. The local dealer's hands are tied, leaving me to fight the battle. So, right now, I'm finalizing plans on a 3,000 mile trip beginning July 4.....to the 3-wheel rally in Deadwood; Cody WY; Chief Joseph Highway/Beartooth Pass to Red Lodge MT; down to Yellowstone; and then heading back home.

[Isopedella]

Final update on original post

I'm sorry to report that all attempts to diagnose and remedy the LH multi-function switch issue of not downshifting manually, have failed (fixing the shifting issue just transferred the problem to the turn signals) and I ordered a new Multi-function switch assembly yesterday from a local dealer (PN 710008090) at a cost of $509.99 plus tax). I will install it myself, and already have the failed switch removed.
I don't fault the local dealer for BRP's failure to address and stand behind a known fault of this multi-function switch cluster.... BMW does the same thing. The local dealer's hands are tied, leaving me to fight the battle. So, right now, I'm finalizing plans on a 3,000 mile trip beginning July 4.....to the 3-wheel rally in Deadwood; Cody WY; Chief Joseph Highway/Beartooth Pass to Red Lodge MT; down to Yellowstone; and then heading back home.


Ya gave it a good crack anyway. Thanks for sharing.

[Bfromla]

Final update on original post

I'm sorry to report that all attempts to diagnose and remedy the LH multi-function switch issue of not downshifting manually, have failed (fixing the shifting issue just transferred the problem to the turn signals) and I ordered a new Multi-function switch assembly yesterday from a local dealer (PN 710008090) at a cost of $509.99 plus tax). I will install it myself, and already have the failed switch removed.
I don't fault the local dealer for BRP's failure to address and stand behind a known fault of this multi-function switch cluster.... BMW does the same thing. The local dealer's hands are tied, leaving me to fight the battle. So, right now, I'm finalizing plans on a 3,000 mile trip beginning July 4.....to the 3-wheel rally in Deadwood; Cody WY; Chief Joseph Highway/Beartooth Pass to Red Lodge MT; down to Yellowstone; and then heading back home.
Seems like an EXTREME alternative would be to remove the SE actuator & go manual somehow.:dontknow: How to down shift without a clutch handle, I am curious if it's actually feasible?? (**underrating is: all are Manual tranny with shift solenoid & programming added for SE**)

[JhDb123]

Final update on original post

I'm sorry to report that all attempts to diagnose and remedy the LH multi-function switch issue of not downshifting manually, have failed (fixing the shifting issue just transferred the problem to the turn signals) and I ordered a new Multi-function switch assembly yesterday from a local dealer (PN 710008090) at a cost of $509.99 plus tax). I will install it myself, and already have the failed switch removed.
I don't fault the local dealer for BRP's failure to address and stand behind a known fault of this multi-function switch cluster.... BMW does the same thing. The local dealer's hands are tied, leaving me to fight the battle. So, right now, I'm finalizing plans on a 3,000 mile trip beginning July 4.....to the 3-wheel rally in Deadwood; Cody WY; Chief Joseph Highway/Beartooth Pass to Red Lodge MT; down to Yellowstone; and then heading back home.

How did you get the instrument console lifted to get to the wiring to replace the lh module??

[EdMat]

Final update on original post

I'm sorry to report that all attempts to diagnose and remedy the LH multi-function switch issue of not downshifting manually, have failed (fixing the shifting issue just transferred the problem to the turn signals) and I ordered a new Multi-function switch assembly yesterday from a local dealer (PN 710008090) at a cost of $509.99 plus tax). I will install it myself, and already have the failed switch removed.
I don't fault the local dealer for BRP's failure to address and stand behind a known fault of this multi-function switch cluster.... BMW does the same thing. The local dealer's hands are tied, leaving me to fight the battle. So, right now, I'm finalizing plans on a 3,000 mile trip beginning July 4.....to the 3-wheel rally in Deadwood; Cody WY; Chief Joseph Highway/Beartooth Pass to Red Lodge MT; down to Yellowstone; and then heading back home.

BamaJohn, I think I discovered where you went wrong. The pic shows you putting the BB on the turn signal side of the switch. This pad is double sided. One side does the turn signals and the other does the shifting. You need to put the BB on the shifter side of the switch. Careful when you take the shift mechanism apart to change out the ball for the BB as there is a spring loaded detent ball that will come flying out. Fixed one today that way. I hope it holds up. Will try and do a better description later.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I wonder if a straight up 4mm ball would fit and work? Amazon has this
https://a.co/d/0qHnlb1

That LINK includes quite a few different sizes if the 4mm isn't correct ..... Mike :thumbup:

[Isopedella]

That LINK includes quite a few different sizes if the 4mm isn't correct ..... Mike :thumbup:

So whats the correct size range?

[BamaJohn]

Seems like EXTREME alternative would be remove the SE actuator & go manual some how.:dontknow: How down shift without clutch handle, am curios if actually feasible. (**underrating is: all are Manual tranny with shift solenoid & programming added for SE**)

It is possible to shift up/down with my fingers pushing the little micro-switch plate inside the LH multi-switch. Removing the shift paddle assembly gains access to the micro-switch plate. (I was at a stage of knowing that replacement of the whole LH switch was imminent, and tried switching with my fingers on the micro-switch plate, just to see if it was in the switch or the paddle shifter assembly.)

[BamaJohn]

How did you get the instrument console lifted to get to the wiring to replace the lh module??

....by removing side mirrors; the black plastic "surround" behind the mirrors; the entire windshield apparatus; if I remember correctly, the next step is to remove 2 small black screws at the arms that raise the windshield & lift off the dash cover. Then remove both headlights...... it is quite a detailed job to do because the LH Multi-switch plugs in on the RH side of the Spyder... I'm sure there's a good reason for that.

[BamaJohn]

BamaJohn, I think I discovered where you went wrong. The pic shows you putting the BB on the turn signal side of the switch. This pad is double sided. One side does the turn signals and the other does the shifting. You need to put the BB on the shifter side of the switch. Careful when you take the shift mechanism apart to change out the ball for the BB as there is a spring loaded detent ball that will come flying out. Fixed one today that way. I hope it holds up. Will try and do a better description later.

Thanks EdMat. My photos might not be adequate, but I did put the BB on the shift side of the switch pad, but it stuck in the housing....wish I had you here back when this began :coffee:

[BamaJohn]

So whats the correct size range?

I measured the OEM ball bearings at 3.96mm

[F32018]

BamaJohn, I think I discovered where you went wrong. The pic shows you putting the BB on the turn signal side of the switch. This pad is double sided. One side does the turn signals and the other does the shifting. You need to put the BB on the shifter side of the switch. Careful when you take the shift mechanism apart to change out the ball for the BB as there is a spring loaded detent ball that will come flying out. Fixed one today that way. I hope it holds up. Will try and do a better description later.

Sir, could you elaborate more on taking the shifter apart to place the BB on the correct side? I understand what you mean by the "double sided" switch, but I want to know more about taking the Shifter apart before attempting that. Is the spring-loaded ball easily put back in place? Did you replace both original balls? Thanks everyone for the posts all very informative. Could you perhaps add some pictures? Can-Am should take more responsibility for this obviously troubled part.

[BamaJohn]

Sir, could you elaborate more on taking the shifter apart to place the BB on the correct side? I understand what you mean by the "double sided" switch, but I want to know more about taking the Shifter apart before attempting that. Is the spring-loaded ball easily put back in place? Did you replace both original balls? Thanks everyone for the posts all very informative. Could you perhaps add some pictures? Can-Am should take more responsibility for this obviously troubled part.

"EdMat" might have more info for you, but here's my update: After the original posting I wound up having to replace the whole switch assembly with new. The oem ball bearings in the switch assembly are smaller than a BB, so the BB would only work one side then sticking in place, disabling the other side of the assembly to work (I made it shift but lost turn signals, for example). Sorry I don't have better news.....

[F32018]

"EdMat" might have more info for you, but here's my update: After the original posting I wound up having to replace the whole switch assembly with new. The oem ball bearings in the switch assembly are smaller than a BB, so the BB would only work one side then sticking in place, disabling the other side of the assembly to work (I made it shift but lost turn signals, for example). Sorry I don't have better news.....

BamaJohn... thank you for the fast reply. Yes, I saw that earlier. I'm still thinking of a way to repair the switch. I'm thinking of a shim between the ball and the button it needs to push. Seems like a $450 switch assembly is hard to swallow. Also worried that it may just happen again. This happened with only 990 miles on my F3. Thanks again. Maybe
Edmat can share some more thoughts? Thanks again.

[woods]

What about lead shot? Available in many size's well below BB.

[Knizar]

What about lead shot? Available in many size's well below BB.

Lead Shot - Bad Idea! You'll have more trouble than you Had!

[EdMat]

Sir, could you elaborate more on taking the shifter apart to place the BB on the correct side? I understand what you mean by the "double sided" switch, but I want to know more about taking the Shifter apart before attempting that. Is the spring-loaded ball easily put back in place? Did you replace both original balls? Thanks everyone for the posts all very informative. Could you perhaps add some pictures? Can-Am should take more responsibility for this obviously troubled part.

Sadly the BB worked for a while, like every other thing I have tried. We are at the point now of replacing the whole left hand assembly. At the last failure what I found was, pressing on the switch membrane would no longer cause any function at all. It makes me think that one of the contacts is disintegrating. I won't know for sure until the assembly is replaced and i can tear the membrane apart.

My thought now is that everything I have done to this point has been an illusion and the only thing that made a difference was every time we did something we caused a slight movement during reassembly allowing non deteriorated parts of the contacts to make contact.

Not sure when he is going to spend the bucks for a new assembly.

[F32018]

Sadly the BB worked for a while, like every other thing I have tried. We are at the point now of replacing the whole left hand assembly. At the last failure what I found was, pressing on the switch membrane would no longer cause any function at all. It makes me think that one of the contacts is disintegrating. I won't know for sure until the assembly is replaced and i can tear the membrane apart.

My thought now is that everything I have done to this point has been an illusion and the only thing that made a difference was every time we did something we caused a slight movement during reassembly allowing non deteriorated parts of the contacts to make contact.

Not sure when he is going to spend the bucks for a new assembly.

So the BB on the paddle side only worked for a while? I'm thinking about a small metal cap over the stud on the membrane. About 0.02 inches in thickness. If you ever saw a primer for a shell or a percussion cap for muzzleloader, think that type of cap. Pics show placement. As soon as it stops the torrential rain here in VA, I'll get outside to try something. Any thoughts on this idea? I concur with the lead bb being too soft and that it may cause other issues if it flakes inside the switch assembly. It needs to be a hard metal.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

My thought now is that everything I have done to this point has been an illusion and the only thing that made a difference was every time we did something we caused a slight movement during reassembly allowing non deteriorated parts of the contacts to make contact.

I believe you have it correct. I had the same problem with my start switch.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?149835-Urgent!-Starter-button-acting-up-Update!&p=1641755&viewfull=1#post1641755

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?150357-Replacing-the-start-button-on-my-2014-RT-saved-me-500&highlight=start+button

Finally ended up tapping into the appropriate wires outside of the RH switch assembly and connecting them to a push button which I installed where the OEM start button was located.

[Gaga]

Left Hand Multifunction Switch Assembly, 710008090 working for an F3-T 2019?

[Snoking1127]

This failing shifting issue creates a major safety issue. People in the US should take the time to fill out a complaint on www.safercar.gov . Maybe we can get an extended warranty going for the issue.

[Gaga]

The flat wire is broken inside

207442