A question or two for those who carry firearms on them when riding

[UtahPete]

Has anyone been in a situation while riding their Spyder when they had to use their firearm for protection?

Have you ever had to use your weapon for protection when riding?

Do you think riding in America is more dangerous than in other countries where personal firearms are not allowed?

[Pirate]

Has anyone been in a situation while riding when a firearm had to be used for protection?

Yes, got caught in a crossfire one time on the road with the HA and Mongols. It even made the news...

[JohnWJ]

Yes, got caught in a crossfire one time on the road with the HA and Mongols. It even made the news...

WOW Glad you are OK

[2dogs]

Has anyone been in a situation while riding their Spyder when they had to use their firearm for protection?

I think if that situation were to arise, one should use their brakes and or their throttle and leave the area as rapidly as possible. Exit stage left or right ASAP!

[UtahPete]

I think if that situation were to arise, one should use their brakes and or their throttle and leave the area as rapidly as possible. Exit stage left or right ASAP!

That's my feeling too. But apparently many feel that’s not good enough?

[2dogs]

That's my feeling too. But apparently many feel that’s not good enough?

With the exception of our veterans and those who are paid to run to gunshots, most people do not know how to react. First thing is to remove the target.

[2dogs]

No, I haven't ever needed a weapon. I do my best to avoid those situations.

[UtahPete]

No, I haven't ever needed a weapon. I do my best to avoid those situations.

My sense is that many who carry do so as an emotional or cultural thing, rather than as a result of rational thought or real fear.

But I've learned after years on this forum that most Spyder riders are thoughtful, responsible, well-reasoned individuals, so I'm ready to accept they have a reality-based rationale for carrying a weapon even when riding.

[SLICE]

Back in 07 two guys wanted my Harley Road Glide,,, until they saw the open end of my 1911.



Stephan.

[bigbadbrucie]

I really don’t know, being Canadian, but I do think that most Americans feel much the came way as 2dogs describes....at least I hope they do. It would be a sad day indeed if the only way out of a situation was a GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL!

[Joe T.]

I never GO ANYWHERE that I'm not 'locked and loaded!!!

:agree:

201884

Joe T.

[UtahPete]

I never GO ANYWHERE that I'm not 'locked and loaded!!! :agree:201884Joe T.

Yes, but why do you feel you need to? That's what I'm asking.

[Joe T.]

Yes, but why do you feel you need to? That's what I'm asking.

The wife is one TOUGH FEMALE. I have to protect myself. Thank Gawd she's only 4'11". Otherwise I would need MORE WEAPONS!!

:2thumbs: :joke:

Joe T.

[2dogs]

My sense is that many who carry do so as an emotional or cultural thing, rather than as a result of rational thought or real fear.

But I've learned after years on this forum that most Spyder riders are thoughtful, responsible, well-reasoned individuals, so I'm ready to accept they have a reality-based rationale for carrying a weapon even when riding.

Well, thank you Utah.

[Bartender]

28 years ago my just married bride and I rode to Mena Arkansas in October. Should have been great weather but a warm front came through and it was horribly hot. I finally decided that we would get a motel room mid afternoon and would look to depart for home at 3:00 a.m. Made sense at the time. Anyway, departed as planned and hadn't traveled more than a mile when we turned North go head home and just after turning on to the highway home this sign appears: Do not pick up hitchhikers next 25 miles, Prison Farm. So there I was just my bride and I riding 2 up at 3:00 a.m. going through a Prison farm. That's the last time I rode without a firearm. Didn't need it that night and have never needed to unholster my firearm. Better prepared than not.

[2dogs]

I really don’t know, being Canadian, but I do think that most Americans feel much the came way as 2dogs describes....at least I hope they do. It would be a sad day indeed if the only way out of a situation was a GUNFIGHT AT THE O.K. CORRAL!

Don't forget, that gunfight lasted less than 30 seconds, and most of the involved were either dead or wounded. Excellent lesson. It was a close in face to face shootout. Bravery is certainly helpful but it's not bulletproof.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Yes, but why do you feel you need to? That's what I'm asking.

Well I'm guessing ( if He doesn't have personal experience ) ... He probably watches FOX news :dontknow::roflblack:..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

[jchadwi]

I have never had to use my firearm, thankfully. I carry everywhere the law allows and I also have fire extinguishers in my vehicles, shop, and house. I never lay awake at night worried that the house is going to catch fire. Feel the same way about carrying a firearm.
As far as danger compared to other countries, I really do not know.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

My sense is that many who carry do so as an emotional or cultural thing, rather than as a result of rational thought or real fear.

But I've learned after years on this forum that most Spyder riders are thoughtful, responsible, well-reasoned individuals, so I'm ready to accept they have a reality-based rationale for carrying a weapon even when riding.

I'm an X- LEO, and I live in a State that mostly ( except for a few cities ) doesn't have carry restrictions .... The few Cities that do are not aware of what the Supreme Court has ruled recently ...... Mike :thumbup:

[seaweed]

My sense is that many who carry do so as an emotional or cultural thing, rather than as a result of rational thought or real fear.

Law enforcement carry guns to defend themselves and others from bad guys/gals.

Civilians carry weapons to defend themselves and others from bad folk.

That is rational.

[UtahPete]

Law enforcement carry guns to defend themselves and others from bad guys/gals.

Civilians carry weapons to defend themselves and others from bad folk.

That is rational.

I suppose so, but only if you have reason to believe you run a very real risk of encountering strangers on your trip who want to harm you.

But, why do you believe that? That's where the 'rationale' aspect comes in.

[Woodenfish]

Have you ever had to use your weapon for protection when riding?

Do you think riding in America is more dangerous than in other countries where personal firearms are not allowed?

There are differing dangers across this country that most better be prepared to handle. Maybe where you travel having bear spray is a common travel item? In other places it’s the human predator street gang member. Just like bear spray, smoke detectors, door locks, fire extinguishers and security cameras you buy them, hope they work when called upon but wish you didn’t need them. As this country is growing by a sudden huge influxes, crime is increasing unabatedly and the local situation in former secure areas have been subject to change.

[UtahPete]

There are differing dangers across this country that most better be prepared to handle. Maybe where you travel having bear spray is a common travel item? In other places it’s the human predator street gang member. Just like bear spray, smoke detectors, door locks, fire extinguishers and security cameras you buy them, hope they work when called upon but wish you didn’t need them. As this country is growing by a sudden huge influxes, crime is increasing unabatedly and the local situation in former secure areas have been subject to change.

Should I take that as a 'no' to both questions?

[Wheelman]

I'm retired LE, veteran and FBI/NRA qualified firearms instructor. I trained cops how to stay alive in a gunfight. That being said, if you find yourself in a situation, unless you or another person are in imminent danger, leave the area immediately. It's not worth the risk or trouble that will follow.

[EdMat]

I wish more trained teachers carried.

[Joe T.]

Well I'm guessing ( if He doesn't have personal experience ) ... He probably watches FOX news :dontknow::roflblack:..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

Hey, BlueBaby, I resemble those remarks!!!

:ohyea:

Joe T.

[UtahPete]

I wish more trained teachers carried.

Is that a 'no' then?

[EdMat]

While riding my Spyder the answer would be NO.

[pegasus1300]

While moving my Mom up from New Orleans to Utah many years ago I stayed in a very cheap motel in Gallup New Mexico. About 2:00am I heard the door rattle in the room. As the door started to open I cocked the hammer on the old .44 and wonder of wonders the sound made the door shut very fast. I got up relocked the door and moved the chair in front of it. Slept just fine the rest of the night. I have a Utah carry permit but almost never carry, but I am glad I had something that night. I prefer to avoid confrontations and mostly stay away from those unsafe areas. Tho they are spreading I think most areas are safe and most people are nice and kind. I have been traveling by motorcycle for nearly 60 years and have only met one grumpy campground manager in all that time. He later came and asked for a favor so made friends with him. I do not have LEO or military training and try to avoid bad situations. I wish me luck on being able to continue in that hope. So Pete I guess the answer is No I don't.

[EdMat]

I do not have LEO or military training and try to avoid bad situations. .

I wonder how many have avoided going somewhere simply because they were carrying? Not talking about where prohibited by law.

[Knizar]

Is anyone carrying low on the hip with an open holster and a leg tie? If so, how many notches on the pistol grip?
Just for future reference only! :ohyea: :nopic: :roflblack: :thumbup: Bill

[Davgill2002]

Is anyone carrying low on the hip with an open holster and a leg tie? If so, how many notches on the pistol grip?
Just for future reference only! :ohyea: :nopic: :roflblack: :thumbup: Bill

No, no, & no.

[rjinaz86323]

......and mostly stay away from those unsafe areas......

Yeah, like movie theaters, churches, cafeterias. No place is immune to some disturbed person going off.

[pegasus1300]

Actually I go to all of those places and still feel safe.

[UtahPete]

Yeah, like movie theaters, churches, cafeterias. No place is immune to some disturbed person going off.

You ride your Spyder in those places?

[UtahPete]

So far, the responses seem to indicate that those who do carry while riding have no rational reason for doing so. No personal threatening experiences where a carried weapon was a factor in ensuring a favorable outcome for the rider, it seems.

[SLICE]

I wonder how many have avoided going somewhere simply because they were carrying? Not talking about where prohibited by law.

Can you give an example, I carry everywhere, signage be dammed as it's just a suggestion, if a mall or restaurant asked me to leave I leave, If I have business in a court or police station/post office ECT the firearm get locked up in a lock box in the car.

[ARtraveler]

Another interesting discussion.

I used to own a couple "mean" guns (one, a 45.70 caliber rifle). Both were never used the whole time I was in AK. When I moved I sent both to my brother as a gift. He bought me a replacement for one, which I shot one time just to try it out. Since then it has been cleaned and put away. Bullets stored in a different place. I guess I am saying, I am not depending on a gun to save me in a bad situation.

In all my life, I have never carried while riding a car or m/c. At this point, I have never felt that threatened. I will leave the "save the situation" heros to do their thing when they are needed. I know they are out there. Watching a lot of "reality" cop shows, it seems that everyone is packing heat these days.

When a bad situation happens, I just want to get out of harms way and avoid the gunfight. It's usually the inexperienced who are the ones who get hurt. The bad guys seem to be the winners most of the time.

You have my .02 worth.

Keep it real and the thread stays open. :bowdown:

[milryder]

Always carry on car/truck road trips with my spouse, or solo, as we travel in in some isolated places in the SW (isn't any unplanned stop on a road isolated"?) My concern is a flat tire or other problems when the wrong people may stop to "help". Felons often need cash, a car or worse. I would surrender car or cash but nothing else. I understand many folks don't carry but I couldn't leave ourselves w/o protection, a plan B, in such situations. Former military and many firearm classes. Don't carry w/o meaningful training.

[2dogs]

I believe you are referring here to what's called "situational awareness." It appears you may have it and that's good because there seem to be many more people who don't have it than those who do. Just about all the bad guys have it. My guess is that 80+% of the public doesn't even know what it means. I feel that most (not all) two and three wheel riders have it because they become inherently accustomed to recognizing and avoiding hazardous situations daily. Always be aware of your surroundings and stay safe.

[UtahPete]

Always carry on car/truck road trips with my spouse, or solo, as we travel in in some isolated places in the SW (isn't any unplanned stop on a road isolated"?) My concern is a flat tire or other problems when the wrong people may stop to "help". Felons often need cash, a car or worse. I would surrender car or cash but nothing else. I understand many folks don't carry but I couldn't leave ourselves w/o protection, a plan B, in such situations. Former military and many firearm classes. Don't carry w/o meaningful training.

My wife and I have traveled and camped extensively in remote areas of the southwest and northwest and continue to do so. Both my Scamp travel trailer and and Lees-ure Lite camping trailer are set up with solar so we can camp off-grid, which is our preference to using busy noisy campgrounds. We feel the greatest threats to personal safety are the weather and predatory animals (e.g. bears), so we use common sense (I hope) and situational awareness to manage those risks.

We've been in some gnarly situations, equipment wise but so far never stranded (breakdown). We have run out of fuel on occasion, including on our Spyder in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming. Always been bailed out by a trucker or fellow traveler and sometimes made a friend or two. In all the time (20+ years) we've lived and traveled out here, I've never heard of travelers being assaulted on the road by bad guys with guns. There have been 2 occasions where campers have been assaulted by lunatics with guns or knives, but there have been far more instances of campers being killed by wildlife, falls, drownings, hypothermia, heat-stroke, thirst and lightning strikes.

We have never thought our risks traveling in the remote parts of our beautiful country could be mitigated by carrying a firearm. I'm former military with combat experience; I hope we never get to the point in America where I feel the need to be heavily armed for protection while traveling.

[UtahPete]

I do have some irrational fears of some places, probably based on nothing more than youthful impressions that have stuck with me. Those include the jungles of Africa and South America, which came from stories about the Mau Mau uprising and missionaries being killed by cannibals. Also, Chicago and New York City where gangs staked their turf claims (West Side Story).

But when it comes to travel on America's roads, the furthest thing from my mind is the risk of personal assault requiring the use of lethal self-defense.

I'm aware that I'm not typical, but I'm just wondering where this fear of bad guys with guns on America's highways and byways comes from. America has long been known as one of the safest places on earth, I believe.

[pbokie59]

Quick question, do you wear a helmet because you enjoy wearing it or is it just in case it is required if you have an accident? Carrying a gun is the same, never plan on using it, but would rather be safe than sorry. Most people that have a gun will not hesitate helping someone in need.
If you are taking about driving down the road and shooting that is crazy, but we all stop to admire views, get gas...and unfortunately on a motorcycle you are more vulnerable than in a enclosed vehicle.

[2dogs]

I'm aware that I'm not typical, but I'm just wondering where this fear of bad guys with guns on America's highways and byways comes from. America has long been known as one of the safest places on earth, I believe.

I’ll try to keep this short as possible. Back in the early 80’s on a m/c touring vacation my wife & I stopped at a campground just off the interstate south of the grand canyon. We were tent camping & it was just after daylight the next morning when I was awakened by two sirens moving at mach3 heading for the south rim area. I got up & was walking back to our tent after taking a short shower when I heard the whap whap sound of a chopper. I could see a helicopter on the deck flying right over the top of a car both coming my way. The car started to turn into our campground & the chopper pilot landed on the dirt driveway blocking the car’s path. The vehicle turned away & headed for the interstate with the chopper right over the top of him & away they went. The FBI had located one of their 10 most wanted who’d commandeered a motorhome along with hostages the day before & they’d cornered him at the south rim. A shootout followed & the bad won guy & got away in a car & was trying to get other hostages. A copper pilot jumped in the game & likely saved my ass from becoming a hostage. So you never never know………..

[UtahPete]

Quick question, do you wear a helmet because you enjoy wearing it or is it just in case it is required if you have an accident? Carrying a gun is the same, never plan on using it, but would rather be safe than sorry. Most people that have a gun will not hesitate helping someone in need.
If you are taking about driving down the road and shooting that is crazy, but we all stop to admire views, get gas...and unfortunately on a motorcycle you are more vulnerable than in a enclosed vehicle.

Statistically speaking, the chances of injuring an unprotected head while riding a motorcycle are probably thousands of times greater than encountering an unknown gunman out to get you. Even in America.

Head injury can result from any type of impact, not just hitting the pavement. I wear a helmet because every respectable authority on the subject recommends it. Also, personal experience; when still a novice, riding a Honda 450, I skid on an oil patch when exiting the freeway and high-sided off the bike. Broke my elbow but skull was protected by my helmet.

[Cobwebs]

Is anyone carrying low on the hip with an open holster and a leg tie? If so, how many notches on the pistol grip?
Just for future reference only! :ohyea: :nopic: :roflblack: :thumbup: Bill

Thats me.:doorag:I'm on wanted posters all over the country.:b2b:I ride around bad neighbourhoods:riding: looking for stray pitbulls.

[jchadwi]

All this discussion about carrying a firearm got me thinking about my analogy with fire extinguishers. If folks knew that I had eight fire extinguishers, they might think I have an irrational fear of fire. However, it is quite the opposite. Also, I am not too concerned about being injured while riding my Spyder, but I wear ATGATT... and conceal carry.

[mandytuning]

I suppose so, but only if you have reason to believe you run a very real risk of encountering strangers on your trip who want to harm you.

But, why do you believe that? That's where the 'rationale' aspect comes in.
Have you ever been in a church? Walmart? Gas stations? They all have cases of mass shootings. Is not about where you go, is about where criminals target innocent people.

[linguine]

April fooled a few in here...

[Joe T.]

OK, let's cut to the chase. The OP had a semi serios question, in my opinion. But, like most of his posts he is just trolling.

However, this is a serious subject. But the OP wants to limit the conversation to just when you have ridden you ride and stopped for gas, food, etc. The truth is you drive/ride/walk to get somewhere. At the destination ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. Most areas with people are soft targets. So, maybe you should carry all the time. Me, like 99% of the folks on this board AIN'T TELLIN'!! It isn't anyone's business.

So, I'll end this with a video from a Church which is about 10 miles from where I grew up. A soft target. Innocent people got killed.

THANKFULLY, AT LEAST ONE DECENT HUMAN BEING WAS CARRYING - and knew how to handle his weapon.

Watch the video:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/parishioner-gunned-texas-church-shooter-hero/story?id=67982047

Peace Brother and Sisters,
Joe T.

[UtahPete]

Yes, let's cut to the chase. I'm not 'trolling', I'm asking why people carry guns with them when ryding.

So far, nobody has stated what I think is the real reason; they like guns and feel better carrying, as is their right. And I'm perfectly okay with that.

I just don't think it's for 'protection', as many claim. Because that seems irrational or fearful and I don't think most ryders who carry are either.

I sure hope I'm right!

[UtahPete]

Have you ever been in a church? Walmart? Gas stations? They all have cases of mass shootings. Is not about where you go, is about where criminals target innocent people.

I don't believe that point of view is based on any rational analysis of the statistics.

Why not just say you like guns and the comfort you get from carrying one? I get it - I'm fascinated by them also.

But, I don't have any expectation of ever being in a situation where I will have need of a firearm for protection. That's the discussion I think we're having here.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Yes, let's cut to the chase. I'm not 'trolling', I'm asking why people carry guns with them when ryding.

So far, nobody has stated what I think is the real reason; they like guns and feel better carrying, as is their right. And I'm perfectly okay with that.

I just don't think it's for 'protection', as many claim. Because that would be irrational or insecure and I don't think those who carry are either.

I sure hope I'm right!

Dear Pete .... I was in active Law Enforcement for 35 years ..... I still have my two NYPD pistols ( a service and an off-duty model ) and a .22 cal. target pistol. The only medals or service awards that ever mattered was the ones I got for Marksmanship. I haven't fired any of them for at least a decade. I do carry when I think it's appropriate for me ..... un-fortunately this is becoming more frequent, the world in general is becoming more & more hostile. My motto is and has been " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 " ( carried refers to the coffin ) ..... JMHO ..... Mike :thumbup:

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete .... I was in active Law Enforcement for 35 years ..... I still have my two NYPD pistols ( a service and an off-duty model ) and a .22 cal. target pistol. The only medals or service awards that ever mattered was the ones I got for Marksmanship. I haven't fired any of them for at least a decade. I do carry when I think it's appropriate for me ..... un-fortunately this is becoming more frequent, the world in general is becoming more & more hostile. My motto is and has been " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 " ( carried refers to the coffin ) ..... JMHO ..... Mike :thumbup:

Thank you for your service, Mike.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thank you for your service, Mike.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.............Mike:ohyea :

[Saluda]

So far, the responses seem to indicate that those who do carry while riding have no rational reason for doing so. No personal threatening experiences where a carried weapon was a factor in ensuring a favorable outcome for the rider, it seems.

I see no reason to justify what we do to you. That said we do at times.

[UtahPete]

I see no reason to justify what we do to you. That said we do at times.

I agree. I don't understand why people think that's what I've been saying, because it's not. I'm not judging AT ALL. I'm just asking why people carry.

It's a lot like a discussion we've had in the past about wearing ATGATT on a Spyder when, except for the helmet, ATGATT is designed to minimize injury from events that are extremely common with 2-wheelers, but extremely unlikely and rare on Spyders.

It's just another anomaly in riders' behavior I'd like to understand better.

[RULINGCHAOS]

Sadly, people will shoot you for your shoes in some places. So yes.

[SLICE]

Yes, let's cut to the chase. I'm not 'trolling', I'm asking why people carry guns with them when ryding.
!

Post #9, I answered your question as to why I carry. If I had not been armed my Harley would have been gone.

To top it off I was at Americade in Lake George New York. Lesson learned never go to a Honda event.

Yes I was carrying in a 2 A hating state.

[ES44AC]

I'd rather have my gun and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I choose not to be a willing victim.

Don't put yourself in a bad situation and leave the situation if possible, but at least be able to defend yourself when the other options aren't available.

[cruisinTX]

I carry everywhere it is legal to do so in Texas and everywhere else. Why? There is one main reason; because, like accidents, you can never predict when and where you might need a firearm to protect yourself or others. There are those who say just call 911 but with current response time in most places, that only allows a bad guy to finish his or her objectives without any resistance. Good guys with guns are more likely to stop carnage quickly than are law enforcement. That's not saying law enforcement is to blame, it's just saying they cannot be everywhere all the time. Hypothetical situation: let's say you are on a multi-day ride and stopped for gas at a convenience store out in the boonies. You finish filling your Spyder and go inside for a drink and a snack at the same moment another person is pulling a gun to rob the store. You have two choices, become a victim along with the store employee or pull your gun and save the employee and yourself. I can only hope I have the courage and skills to do that without anyone getting hurt other than the thief. Of course, it's better to try to talk the crook down without firing a shot, but sometimes that is just not an option. The second option is if you don't have a gun and the thief shoots the employee then realizes you are an eye witness that he needs to terminate to protect himself from being identified. In that case, you are dead right there.


Others may carry for different reasons like to feel like they are a bad ass or just to exercise their 2A rights or just to feel more secure. In the end as some others have stated, "it's better to have a firearm and not need it than to need one and not have it."

[Steve W.]

Thats me.:doorag:I'm on wanted posters all over the country.:b2b:

Last I heard, I'm wanted in four states.

I'm not wanted back in the other 46. :shocked:

.

[UtahPete]

I carry everywhere it is legal to do so in Texas and everywhere else. Why? There is one main reason; because, like accidents, you can never predict when and where you might need a firearm to protect yourself or others....Others may carry for different reasons like to feel like they are a bad ass or just to exercise their 2A rights or just to feel more secure. In the end as some others have stated, "it's better to have a firearm and not need it than to need one and not have it."

I think you nailed it.

[2dogs]

"It's better to have a firearm and not need it than to need one and not have it". And, "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six".

[UtahPete]

"It's better to have a firearm and not need it than to need one and not have it". And, "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six".

That seems to be the prevailing opinion, for sure.

[safecracker]

I carry when I snowmobiled and ryding Spyder. Have had to use it to put down a Moose and a deer that was hit and the Moose who got caught on a logging road bridge. She caught her hind leg in the gap between planks, broke her back. So I carry more for putting down animals that are suffering. Law is always too far away to do it. Called them after animal was put out of its pain. Bruce

[UtahPete]

I carry when I snowmobiled and ryding Spyder. Have had to use it to put down a Moose and a deer that was hit and the Moose who got caught on a logging road bridge. She caught her hind leg in the gap between planks, broke her back. So I carry more for putting down animals that are suffering. Law is always too far away to do it. Called them after animal was put out of its pain. Bruce

I can see where a firearm would be useful in the back-country.

[2dogs]

I can see where a firearm would be useful in the back-country.

Out here on the left coast, we have some really idiotic edicts created by some very inept MoPs and enforced by some very aggressive agencies. Even though you may be out in the backcountry you are still under the same jurisdiction as if you were standing in the middle of a mall. So it can be as simple as a state line that determines commonsense from lunacy. Rant over.

[UtahPete]

Out here on the left coast, we have some really idiotic edicts created by some very inept MoPs and enforced by some very aggressive agencies. Even though you may be out in the backcountry you are still under the same jurisdiction as if you were standing in the middle of a mall. So it can be as simple as a state line that determines commonsense from lunacy. Rant over.

MoP? Member of Parliament?

[2dogs]

MoP? Member of Parliament?

Yes Sir red rider, you got that right off. I was trying to be nonpolitical because I've been slapped before for that. :thumbup:

[C. Lee]

Do you really think bad things can't happen to you? Trying to be prepared for bad things is the reason we all make decisions about ourselves and family. You carry insurance, you lock your doors when in a bad area, you have smoke detectors at home and have a fire extinguisher. These are all things we do to protect ourselves, why should carrying a firearm be anything other than a precaution. Chris