Baja Ron sway BAR explained

[Jcummins]

I've actually asked somewhere maybe on this forum or on a Facebook group does the sway bar upgrade resolve or address the problem of corrections in the curves. I get needed corrections in the curves. In this video they specifically say that those mid-course corrections in curves is addressed with a sway bar upgrade.


Those that have done the upgrade....do you agree it resolves this?

https://youtu.be/8vtZkQlcWt8

[Steve W.]

Have not yet watched the video, but it was explained to me that the tie rods and the suspension arms do not pivot in the same areas, so as the suspension moves in a turn, the steering changes a bit. The anti-sway bar minimizes the amount of suspension movement, thereby improving the handling.

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[RobDekker]

One day, Pierre will get the pronunciation of baja right. LOL

[RayBJ]

I found the sway bar takes away a lot of the leaning in fast corners and side gusts. Upgrading the shocks makes bumps that would throw off your line smoother so control is better. Purely my perception, not based on SCIENCE!

[Rednaxs60]

The sway bar is incorporated into the suspension system to minimize frame twist/torque. The less robust the sway bar, the less twist/torque will be compensated for. This does affect suspension movement, but only to a point, otherwise shocks would not be needed.

The front suspension is a system, needs a sway bar that reduces frame twist/torque to a point, and also a set of front shocks that are sized and adequate for the ride quality and performance you expect. A sway bar that would eliminate all frame twist/torque, and lean/roll in the corners would be massive.

My 2014 RT LE with a BajaRon sway bar installed, and the OEM shocks, was good on the straight (takes up the frame changes due to road conditions) and sweepers, but on a cloverleaf off ramp, did not compensate for the roll/lean of the Spyder, and the front suspension was fully compressed such that to level the Spyder I would have to reduce the speed to well below the posted recommended, or hang out over the side as if I was on a race track.

A beefier sway bar is not the end all, be all, nor are upgraded front shocks. Each has an expense attached as well as a ride quality and performance aspect. Regardless of quality, can't have one without the other. Depends on what you want to achieve.

JMHO. Cheers

[Jcummins]

The sway bar is incorporated into the suspension system to minimize frame twist/torque. The less robust the sway bar, the less twist/torque will be compensated for. This does affect suspension movement, but only to a point, otherwise shocks would not be needed.

The front suspension is a system, needs a sway bar that reduces frame twist/torque to a point, and also a set of front shocks that are sized and adequate for the ride quality and performance you expect. A sway bar that would eliminate all frame twist/torque, and lean/roll in the corners would be massive.

My 2014 RT LE with a BajaRon sway bar installed, and the OEM shocks, was good on the straight (takes up the frame changes due to road conditions) and sweepers, but on a cloverleaf off ramp, did not compensate for the roll/lean of the Spyder, and the front suspension was fully compressed such that to level the Spyder I would have to reduce the speed to well below the posted recommended, or hang out over the side as if I was on a race track.

A beefier sway bar is not the end all, be all, nor are upgraded front shocks. Each has an expense attached as well as a ride quality and performance aspect. Regardless of quality, can't have one without the other. Depends on what you want to achieve.

JMHO. Cheers

The curves I have corrections needed I'm typically 10 over posted speed. And I don't do much body leaning. I have 2020 RTL.

[BajaRon]

The short answer is 'Yes'. The sway bar upgrade will virtually eliminate the need to adjust in curves.

I have not watched the video. But in simple terms, as the Spyder leans, the steering geometry changes. This is not linear, the amount of change increases much faster than the amount of lean. The result is that when you go into a turn, the increased lean creates an oversteer condition. When you adjust for this oversteer it unloads the suspension somewhat, and creates an under-steer condition. Depending on the distance traveled in the turn, you may go through several reducing oscillations until the Spyder finally settles in and no further input is required. This is one reason a stock Spyder can really wear you out on a windy road. With an average of 3-4 adjustments required for every turn, that really adds up to arm and upper body fatigue.

With the sway bar upgrade, the excessive lean and dive are removed. And since there is little change to the steering geometry at the beginning of the lean process, you can then go into a curve, set your steering angle (handlebars) and you're done, unless the curve radius or camber changes. It's a huge difference.

I know people get the impression that you have to ride like Evil Knievel to appreciate a sway bar upgrade. But this is not true. The sway bar does much more than just get you through the twisties faster.

[Steve W.]

The sway bar is incorporated into the suspension system to minimize frame twist/torque. The less robust the sway bar, the less twist/torque will be compensated for. This does affect suspension movement, but only to a point, otherwise shocks would not be needed.
I still find it a bit ironic that the devices that actually absorb the shocks are the springs. The "shocks" or "shock absorbers" are actually the hydraulic dampers that keep the spring from bouncing uncontrolled. But I digress.

The "shocks" will control the bike when you encounter a bump or a dip with both wheels. The anti-sway bar comes into play when only one wheel is affected, or the two wheels are affected in opposite directions.

When both wheels are going up or down at the same time, the anti-sway bar simply pivots in its bushings and adds very little to the action. However, when the wheels move differently, the anti-sway bar gets twisted, trying to keep things normalized. The Baja Ron bar is a bit thicker than the stock bar, so it does a better job.

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[Rednaxs60]

I still find it a bit ironic that the devices that actually absorb the shocks are the springs. The "shocks" or "shock absorbers" are actually the hydraulic dampers that keep the spring from bouncing uncontrolled. But I digress. Agree - the shock spring absorbs the bumps/dips/road shocks/etc and the spring rate affects this, the shock is to prevent unwanted oscillation of the shock spring by controlling compression/rebound of the shock spring.

The "shocks" will control the bike when you encounter a bump or a dip with both wheels. The anti-sway bar comes into play when only one wheel is affected, or the two wheels are affected in opposite directions. Agree. Need opposing force(s) to make a sway bar work, without this the sway bar is a passenger. The size of the sway bar and the length of the sway bar arms are further considerations.

When both wheels are going up or down at the same time, the anti-sway bar simply pivots in its bushings and adds very little to the action. Agree However, when the wheels move differently, the anti-sway bar gets twisted, trying to keep things normalized.Agree - the sway bar wants to return to its resting position.[/B] The Baja Ron bar is a bit thicker than the stock bar, so it does a better job.

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Agree with what has been mentioned above - put my thoughts in colour.

We tend to generalize when it comes to terms/items/systems and such. The electrical system is still called a 12 VDC system when in reality it is a 14.2 VDC system - regulator/rectifier set point, or to make a decision and to take a decision - making a decision does not necessarily mean that you will implement the decision.

My premise is that you have to consider all aspects of the suspension system, and to not do so could/can be an oversight with an incorrect diagnosis of the issue/problem. The issue/problem may be solved to your satisfaction, but not to others.

Just my thoughts and JMHO. Cheers

[2dogs]

On the freeway in a crosswind, and in the semi's wind buffeting is where my swaybar stands out. Possibly because I'm retired, I see no reason to press the curves to their limits anymore as I'm in no hurry to get anywhere these days. Hope to keep it that way for a long time.

[JayBros]

On the freeway in a crosswind, and in the semi's wind buffeting is where my swaybar stands out. Possibly because I'm retired, I see no reason to press the curves to their limits anymore as I'm in no hurry to get anywhere these days. Hope to keep it that way for a long time.

:agree: I also find that if I happen to be pushing it in twisties, which I do sometimes, my travel through the curves is flatter and I can hear my front tires squeal as they grip the road.

[BajaRon]

There is 1 misconception about a sway bar that will probably never be cleared up. But I keep trying!:rolleyes:

Everyone understands that a thicker bar will give you more strength. But most stop there.

Rednaxs60 makes the valid point that arm length also makes a difference in strength.

But there is yet a 3rd component. And that is spring strength. I am told there are 5 different, off the shelf, spring tension or strength steels. So that each category is stronger for the same diameter steel bar. So, it isn't as simple as measuring diameter. As a matter of fact, the original BajaRon bar for the 2008-2012 GS/RS/RSS is the same diameter as the OEM bar. I actually had a customer return one of these bars without installing it. When he measured it against his stock bar, finding it the same diameter, he said there would be no advantage to it. What he did not take into account was the added strength of the metallurgy, and the shortened arm length.

In addition, the spring steel bar I use will retain it's strength many times longer than the metal used in the OEM bar. Any spring will weaken with use. But a high quality steel loses very little strength, even after a few hundred thousand miles.

Nothing is as simple as it seems. I've had to learn this the hard way when developing a seemingly 'Simple' product.

[Rednaxs60]

Agree with BajaRon on the tensile strength of the bar. Think of this similar to a car tire. Radial construction is the same regardless of the radial tire, but the quality of the "plys" is considerably different between a premium tire compared to a less expensive one, and for the same size tire. Better material allows manufacturer's to use the same size mold, but the product may be far superior depending on the composition of the material.

The length of the sway bar arm affects how the sway bar reacts and how fast it reacts. Work = Force times Distance. The amount of work built up in the sway bar to when it is starting to torque to resist the forces applied will start earlier with a longer arm because it takes less force to start the sway bar working than when the sway bar arm is shorter. Had comments in some gyms from friends with shorter arms. My arm length is 36" and I would use 15 pounds to do reps. This represents a work component of 540 in-lbs. A person with a shorter arm length say 30", needs to use an 18 lb weight to do the same amount of work.

A thicker bar made of the same materials and material composition of its smaller brother may very well be stronger, but this plays havoc with space limitations. This is similar to shock spring rates. There are shock spring manufacturers that do not like to divulge its spring rates, try getting the spring rate for an RT shock from BRP, or even the ingredients for the various paint schemes used on its products. The size difference between a 300 lb-in spring and a 350 lb-in spring may be negligible, but the performance of the spring is significantly different. BajaRon sway bar versus OEM sway bar.

I will mention again that suspension is not a one shot wonder that cures all. It's a system that needs all components to be considered because each component should complement the others. Again, my thoughts and JMHO.

Cheers

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Agree with BajaRon on the tensile strength of the bar.
A clarification. The strength of a sway bar depends on the shear strength of the metal, commonly referred to as torsional strength when referring to twisting a bar. There can be significant differences between tensile, i.e. stretching, strength of a bar and its shear, i.e. cutting across or twisting, strength.

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks, you are correct. I generally check the dictionary on line to make certain I am using a word correctly.

[PMK]

Actually, and I may be incorrect, the technical reference would be Yuongs Modulus. Neither shear or tensile strength represent a springs constant.

In simple terms, the way I explain tuning suspension for racers is that springs support and damping controls.
A swaybar or antiroll bar, typically is supported by the chassis, and linked into the right and left suspension.

Depending upon the dynamics of deflecting the swaybar, the input force can be induced by either the left or right side suspension, or induced by the chassis itself. Correctly understanding these dynamics lets a person envision, as others mentioned, the swaybar is part of a system. The system not only includes the shock absorber assemblies, but also considers flex of the chassis, flex of the suspension arms, tires and more.

Regardless, the Spyders true handling inabilities start at the root, and that is the simplistic bellcrank steering linkage that does capture Ackerman Effect, but somewhat fails in controlling bump steer, induced by suspension movement or in some cases chassis lean or roll.

[Mikey]

Another thing that will help you in the corners and I am surprised that Ron hadn't said it yet, is to look threw the corner when you come into it, and don't look down at the front of your tires. If your trying to fight your tires to stay on line and you are concentrating on that, your turn will be choppier!! Come into a corner and look further around the turn, don't look down in front of you!!! Ron can do a better job of explaining it than I can, but it works, that's all I know!! A sway bar will take a lot of the roll out of your bike so you don't feel like your heading out to the rhubarb, there are all kinds of things that will help get you around the corners with out the pucker factor!! Another thing that no one has hit on is speed<<<, no matter how good your bikes set up there is a limit to how speed you can take into a corner! Nanny will tell you when that's a factor!! Good luck!!

[BajaRon]

Wow! A lot of very knowledgeable people here! There are a number of factors that I have not covered. I try not to put people to sleep. I love the technicalities. But most are not all that interested. And as long as suspension components have been around. There is still more to learn.

As Rednaxs60 and others have stated. Each separate suspension component is important. They tend to overlap duties. But each has a specific purpose. It is the correct blend of all components that bring you the best results. You can't fix a weak sway bar with better shocks. And you can't fix bad shocks with a better sway bar. And neither will fix a bad alignment (which is also a 'Suspension' component).

Though I recommend getting a laser alignment first. It doesn't mean you have to get everything at the same time (though this can be cost effective if you are having the work done). I encourage riders to start with the laser alignment and one of the other two items. Then see what they think. Many are happy and stop there. Some decide to get the 2nd item when their skill level improves to where they want more from the machine.

Everyone is different. Just don't let someone tell you that changing one suspension component will eliminate the need to change another.

[2dogs]

A clarification. The strength of a sway bar depends on the shear strength of the metal, commonly referred to as torsional strength when referring to twisting a bar. There can be significant differences between tensile, i.e. stretching, strength of a bar and its shear, i.e. cutting across or twisting, strength.

Torsional Rigidity, correct?

[Rednaxs60]

BajaRon - found an old thread of yours, interesting read: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?45754-What-Does-A-Sway-Bar-Do

[Rednaxs60]

Another thread that relates to this one regarding BajaRon's sway bar from a few years back: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?84363-Baja-Ron-Sway-Bar-Regrets

[BertRemington]

Two observations:

1. Each of us has different expectations and different requirements for our suspensions. For instance, mine is comfort and stability on freeways and surface streets as a single 180lbs rider with at most 50lbs tools and materials, occasionally towing a trailer at 55mph (well maybe 65mph). For the twisties I take the Royal Enfield.

2. The extreme lay-down angle and chassis-to-wheel distance of the front shocks concerns me regarding analogies to traditional (ie, more upright) shock positioning and associated sway bar performance. There's increased stiction and shaft side-loading; increased leverage on A-arm bushings; and then the chassis-to-wheel length of the A-arms themselves.

My expectations and analysis are leading me down this path: tires (done); bushings (in hand); shocks (ordered); tighten and maybe replace handlebar-to-DPS links; laser alignment (if available locally); and maybe re-install OEM sway bar.

And I'm watching with fascination how the rest of you are achieving your expectations and requirements.

[Mikey]

:popcorn:

[Jcummins]

For anyone interested..... Installed the upgraded swaybar. It accomplished exactly what Pierre said in the video. My 2020 RTL is most definitely planted better in the curves. It is worth the money, at least to me.

[Peteoz]

For anyone interested..... Installed the upgraded swaybar. It accomplished exactly what Pierre said in the video. My 2020 RTL is most definitely planted better in the curves. It is worth the money, at least to me.

Yep, and despite all the analysis and technical descriptions, what it is “worth” to YOU, is what really matters, Jcummins:thumbup:

Pete

[Lew L]

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All the above are right on. You bet a stiffer anti-roll bar helps a lot. So does a proper wheel alignment. So does proper and equal tire pressure on GOOD tires. My 2014 RTS handles better than I do.

Lew L
191917

[SNOOPY]

Wow! A lot of very knowledgeable people here!



Thank you :ohyea:


:roflblack:


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[bikerbillone]

A most interesting thread.

[BajaRon]

Two observations:

1. Each of us has different expectations and different requirements for our suspensions. For instance, mine is comfort and stability on freeways and surface streets as a single 180lbs rider with at most 50lbs tools and materials, occasionally towing a trailer at 55mph (well maybe 65mph). For the twisties I take the Royal Enfield.

2. The extreme lay-down angle and chassis-to-wheel distance of the front shocks concerns me regarding analogies to traditional (ie, more upright) shock positioning and associated sway bar performance. There's increased stiction and shaft side-loading; increased leverage on A-arm bushings; and then the chassis-to-wheel length of the A-arms themselves.

My expectations and analysis are leading me down this path: tires (done); bushings (in hand); shocks (ordered); tighten and maybe replace handlebar-to-DPS links; laser alignment (if available locally); and maybe re-install OEM sway bar.

And I'm watching with fascination how the rest of you are achieving your expectations and requirements.

Curious as to which bushing you are replacing? And what are you replacing them with?

[BertRemington]

BR -- I intend to replace the 8 bushings at the chassis end of the A-arms with BRP 706201519, assuming I can press the old ones out. Why? It's just something I've always done to my car suspensions so when I saw the Spyder front-end my old habit kicked in. I checked to see if Energy Suspension had any pieces that would fit -- no joy -- didn't check Prothane.

One thing that's out of my experience is all my cars have been MacPherson strut front-ends. And the only experience I have with integrated coil-damper "laydown" suspension is motorcycle front-ends. So I'm kinda feeling my way here. I understand the tradeoffs the BRP engineers made. I'm just not sure how to modify them to my preferences so proceeding based on past car and motorcycle experiences. And careful reading of your, PMK, rednaxs60, et al posts.

[SpyderGoldwingOwner]

New 2020RT(leftover) having Spyder Pops put on BajaRon Swaybar & links this Tuesday. To me at 70+mph on a sweeper curve bike is too twitchy.

Will test out in Arkansas twistie roads this week.

Hope it helps.

[BajaRon]

BR -- I intend to replace the 8 bushings at the chassis end of the A-arms with BRP 706201519, assuming I can press the old ones out. Why? It's just something I've always done to my car suspensions so when I saw the Spyder front-end my old habit kicked in. I checked to see if Energy Suspension had any pieces that would fit -- no joy -- didn't check Prothane.

One thing that's out of my experience is all my cars have been MacPherson strut front-ends. And the only experience I have with integrated coil-damper "laydown" suspension is motorcycle front-ends. So I'm kinda feeling my way here. I understand the tradeoffs the BRP engineers made. I'm just not sure how to modify them to my preferences so proceeding based on past car and motorcycle experiences. And careful reading of your, PMK, rednaxs60, et al posts.

So, you are trading out stock for stock? Sorry, just trying to follow the logic. I thought you might have sourced a polyethylene part. I am assuming that BRP is still using a silicone rubber bushing. Getting the old ones out shouldn't be too difficult.

[BajaRon]

BR -- I intend to replace the 8 bushings at the chassis end of the A-arms with BRP 706201519, assuming I can press the old ones out. Why? It's just something I've always done to my car suspensions so when I saw the Spyder front-end my old habit kicked in. I checked to see if Energy Suspension had any pieces that would fit -- no joy -- didn't check Prothane.

One thing that's out of my experience is all my cars have been MacPherson strut front-ends. And the only experience I have with integrated coil-damper "laydown" suspension is motorcycle front-ends. So I'm kinda feeling my way here. I understand the tradeoffs the BRP engineers made. I'm just not sure how to modify them to my preferences so proceeding based on past car and motorcycle experiences. And careful reading of your, PMK, rednaxs60, et al posts.

So, you are trading out stock for stock? Sorry, just trying to follow the logic. I thought you might have sourced a polyethylene part. I am assuming that BRP is still using a silicone rubber bushing.


New 2020RT(leftover) having Spyder Pops put on BajaRon Swaybar & links this Tuesday. To me at 70+mph on a sweeper curve bike is too twitchy.

Will test out in Arkansas twistie roads this week.

Hope it helps.

If the bar doesn't get it all out. Try a laser alignment (if you've not already done one) and run 18-19 lbs in your front tires. And there is always the 'Relax, Relax, Relax' advise.

[Big F]

Just an FYI.
we had our annual Spyderfever rally over the past weekend. (and another great turnout of Spyder owners from the upper Midwest I might add) During one of the rides we encountered VERY strong side wind gusts and those Spyders with the Baja Ron sway bars were able to cope with the issues much better than those that did not have the sway bar upgrade..
BIG F

[BigLenny]

The only thing I can add to this thread is:
Two weeks ago, I made my way to SpyderPops, and had him and his team do a laser alignment, and install the BajaRon sway bar to our 2020 RTL. Currently my wife and I are vacationing in Smoky Mountains National Park. Yesterday day was our first full day of riding these incredible mountain roads, and all I can say is WOW!
We rode several incredible roads, including 100 miles of the Blue Ridge Parkway. This dang thing is so much more planted, stable, and true in the turns than it ever was before. It made the ride in the twisties an absolute blast!
Bravo BajaRon! And Bravo SpyderPops and his team for hooking me up!
Now, today is The Tail of the Dragon, The Cherohala Skyway, and Moonshiner 28. That should be a blast too.
Big Lenny

[PMK]

BR -- I intend to replace the 8 bushings at the chassis end of the A-arms with BRP 706201519, assuming I can press the old ones out. Why? It's just something I've always done to my car suspensions so when I saw the Spyder front-end my old habit kicked in. I checked to see if Energy Suspension had any pieces that would fit -- no joy -- didn't check Prothane.

One thing that's out of my experience is all my cars have been MacPherson strut front-ends. And the only experience I have with integrated coil-damper "laydown" suspension is motorcycle front-ends. So I'm kinda feeling my way here. I understand the tradeoffs the BRP engineers made. I'm just not sure how to modify them to my preferences so proceeding based on past car and motorcycle experiences. And careful reading of your, PMK, rednaxs60, et al posts.

While the benefits of converting from Nitrile bonded pivot bushings to floating Polyurethane can have benefits in many applications, a Spyder may be one of seeing the least improvement or gains. The reason is the wheel travel and angular travel of the suspension arms is not much. Granted, under braking, you can watch a lot of movement front to rear in the upper arms. Just not sure how much is bushing distortion.

If you have an oem bushing in hand, using the dimensions of the shell ID and sleeve OD, you might find industrial Polyurethane die springs capable of accomplishing the task.

Ideally, the pivot axis is aligned and you could install the metalic bushings, along with grease fittings from previous year Spyders. Do so there would be no flex and done right minimal maintenance via the grease zerks.