Went over the Spyder with a fine-tooth comb....

[ataDude]

... while I was doing maintenance on my early model 2008 SM... #1704.

A disclaimer: I am not a trained engineer or mechanic and everything below are just my personal opinions and observations but... I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Like some folks here, I found a number of things I didn't like... thus all of the new plastic wiring looms protecting fuel, radiator and vacuum lines at the top. I understand that the 2009s forward may already have some of this protection.

Two things I really didn't like:

1. High-voltage / Fuel Line. The front cylinder's high-voltage spark plug wire (#2 in pic) was crossed and resting on the primary, high-pressure fuel line (#1 in pic) from the fuel tank (though the fuel filter). I re-routed the plug wire to behind the fuel line and added two more layers of wiring loom for protection (the pic is "after").

This, in all probability, is not a huge issue as the high-voltage wire insulation would need to (a) fail and (b) fire to a ground. A "perfect storm" issue might arise if (i) the wire's insulation failed and (ii) moisture was present which could present a ground.

2. Emissions Canister Vent Hose. As some of you have already noticed, the emissions canister vent hose is a short, U-shaped hose that could emit excess downward directly onto the rear cylinder's exhaust header pipe. The open end of the vent is about 2" forward, and 8" higher, than the exhaust with nothing in between.

I believe that the purpose of the vent hose is to allow atmospheric pressure into the canister so that the "purge valve" can suck (using engine vacuum) any excess fumes from the canister into the fuel injection throttle bodies.

However, this vent appears to be the only portion of the fuel system open to the outside world.

In my opinion, a couple of things might cause a problem with the vent location:

a. First, if repeated fuel tank "over-fillings" cause the charcoal in the canister to become saturated with liquid gas, that liquid after expansion from heat could be forced from the canister through the vent hose.

b. Second, (i) if the fuel tank is really full (over filled), and (ii) if the tank is heated either by engine heat, climate or both, and (iii) if the engine is turned off while the fuel is expanding from the heat, there is virtually no other place (that I am aware of) to which the expanded fuel (under pressure) can exit other than through the vent hose... directly downward onto the exhaust header. (Close your eyes and picture a long ride... the engine is hot... you fuel up (over fill) and then take a break; or picture a long ride... you fuel up (over fill) and return immediately home to park it).

Bear in mind that while the engine is running, and the purge valve is functioning correctly, any excess would probably be sucked right into the throttle bodies. That, in theory, could cause a momentary "rich" running condition which could be noticeable from a performance perspective.

Short of a complete "canisterectomy" noted on other threads, I opted to just replace the short vent hose with a longer one (5/16" ID) to exit in the center in front of the rear tire. I have dual-side exhausts so there is no "safe" place away from the muffler heat other than in the center... don't rag on me. :D

I left the canister, purge valve and other related plumbing intact as I have had no issues (gas smell or performance) before, or after, the software update.

Both of these suppositions assume (uh, oh) that there is no one-way valve in the canister vent circuit -or- or that there may be a one-way valve in the vent circuit but it is malfunctioning. We will not know for sure until someone with a spare canister cuts it apart as it would have to be inside.

That's my $0.02 and I'm sticking with it. :D

In the pic below, the upper "spotlight" is the open end of the canister vent hose. The lower "spotlight" is the rear cylinder exhaust header. #1 notes the fuel line to the throttle bodies and #2 is the front cylinder's high-voltage spark plug wire.
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http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=19&pictureid=6024
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[Dudley]

Thanks, that is very informative. Gives me some more things to look for and correct.

[Tom in NM]

... while I was doing maintenance on my early model 2008 SM... #1704.

A disclaimer: I am not a trained engineer or mechanic and everything below is just my personal opinion and observation.

a. First, if repeated fuel tank "over-fillings" cause the charcoal in the canister to become saturated with liquid gas, that liquid after expansion from heat, could be forced from the canister through the vent hose.

b. Second, (i) if the fuel tank is really full, and (ii) if the tank is heated either by engine heat, climate or both, and (iii) if the engine is turned off while the fuel is expanding from the heat, there is virtually no other place (that I am aware of) to which the expanded fuel (under pressure) can exit other than through the vent hose... directly downward onto the exhaust header. (Close your eyes and picture a long ride... the engine is hot... you fuel up (over fill) and then take a break; or picture a long ride... you fuel up (over fill) and return immediately home to park it).

That's my $0.02 and I'm sticking with it. :D



. . . . Last week when I opened my gas cap to fill up my Spyder ( one bar, light on, 4.8 gallons to fill all bars ) there was gas dripping from the cap and in the tank collar - a few drops even came out on the apron around the cap. Being in a gas station, I did not notice any unusual gas smells.

I had been riding some rough roads and my suspension is very stiff for the load the Spyder carries. I am not familiar with exactly how the valve on the gas tank works (even after reading the Shop Manual) - could lots of agitation of the gas tank also send gas through the vent hose to the evap canister?

(by rough, I mean 45mph, up on the pegs because the seat is bouncing at least 5" up and down every couple of seconds)

Just wondering.

Good stuff atadude.
Tom

[ataDude]

. . . . Last week when I opened my gas cap to fill up my Spyder ( one bar, light on, 4.8 gallons to fill all bars ) there was gas dripping from the cap and in the tank collar - a few drops even came out on the apron around the cap. Being in a gas station, I did not notice any unusual gas smells.

I had been riding some rough roads and my suspension is very stiff for the load the Spyder carries. I am not familiar with exactly how the valve on the gas tank works (even after reading the Shop Manual) - could lots of agitation of the gas tank also send gas through the vent hose to the evap canister?

(by rough, I mean 45mph, up on the pegs because the seat is bouncing at least 5" up and down every couple of seconds)

Just wondering.

Good stuff atadude.
Tom

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Thanks... but not too sure of the answer to your question. My first thought was "no way", but as we know, almost anything is possible.

Anyone?
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[NancysToy]

I believe the gas does "bounce" through the anti-tip valve into the purge canister. I think it also pushes into it while filling because of the vent location, even if you don't overfill. I have no way to prove it, but in my mind it is a certainty. A float valve in the vent line would be a help, as would a higher loop in the hose. In the end, I may have to say to heck with the EPA, and remove the canister.

[Smylinacha]

. . . . Last week when I opened my gas cap to fill up my Spyder ( one bar, light on, 4.8 gallons to fill all bars ) there was gas dripping from the cap and in the tank collar - a few drops even came out on the apron around the cap. Being in a gas station, I did not notice any unusual gas smells.

I had been riding some rough roads and my suspension is very stiff for the load the Spyder carries. I am not familiar with exactly how the valve on the gas tank works (even after reading the Shop Manual) - could lots of agitation of the gas tank also send gas through the vent hose to the evap canister?

(by rough, I mean 45mph, up on the pegs because the seat is bouncing at least 5" up and down every couple of seconds)

Just wondering.

Good stuff atadude.
Tom

You off roading in that thing?!

[Dudley]

I believe the gas does "bounce" through the anti-tip valve into the purge canister. I think it also pushes into it while filling because of the vent location, even if you don't overfill. I have no way to prove it, but in my mind it is a certainty. A float valve in the vent line would be a help, as would a higher loop in the hose. In the end, I may have to say to heck with the EPA, and remove the canister.


I just plugged the purge valve line like Lamont did and it is a dream!!! A lot smoother. I left the canister and just plastic tied it to the canister post that I removed it from.

[Tom in NM]

You off roading in that thing?!

Off road, no, that is for my BMW F650GS.

Fire trails and dirt roads, ranch & mining roads, yes. yes. yes!

There are some roads in and to some of the National Parks and Indian Reservations that I cannot take the Spyder on - my Jeep's skid-plate even gets a real workout.

But, once you get off the "main" roads here in New Mexico, it can be very interesting - even if they are paved.

I love this place. Not a lot of frogs, either.

Tom

[Donzo]

Great suggestions! I wish I had read this early last week -- before -- I took all the tupperwear off to put in the Spal relay. Next time I am in there I will check and add insulation as you did - can't hurt, Thanks!

[jarhd3]

after all the postings on this site,fires, rough running,etc;I went over my spyder w/my nephew who has a degree in engineering fm MIT and found so manyproblems w/production assem.Alot of heat builds up inside the spyder body panels and this constant heat buildup is causing fatigue on hoses and elec.harnesses.Some connectors are starting to go soft and pliable and could easily disintegrate or just fall apart and fail.We spent the whole day seeing things on the spyder that didnt make sense.Rerouted some hoses and wire looms and connectors,replaced some of the clamping devices and replaced all the fuel lines w/braided lines and aircraft type connections.Reinsulated all the plugs and conections w/aircraft quality insulation looms(nephew is pilot/owner enthusiast-20yrs.experience).Also added more ventilation to the engine area by trimming the air intakes on the side panels and added small airscoops to the top panels.More air circulating seems to do the trick.The panels on the spyder are TOO restrictive for a real positive airflow around the engine compartment and components.I can tell you that it has made a TREMENDOUS difference on the durability and cooling on the bike.The work took a full weekend and was worth the time.I prefer to go for performance than cosmetics when it comes to the spyder.ITS A GREAT MACHINE!

[BeRight]

after all the postings on this site,fires, rough running,etc;I went over my spyder w/my nephew who has a degree in engineering fm MIT and found so manyproblems w/production assem.Alot of heat builds up inside the spyder body panels and this constant heat buildup is causing fatigue on hoses and elec.harnesses.Some connectors are starting to go soft and pliable and could easily disintegrate or just fall apart and fail.We spent the whole day seeing things on the spyder that didnt make sense.Rerouted some hoses and wire looms and connectors,replaced some of the clamping devices and replaced all the fuel lines w/braided lines and aircraft type connections.Reinsulated all the plugs and conections w/aircraft quality insulation looms(nephew is pilot/owner enthusiast-20yrs.experience).Also added more ventilation to the engine area by trimming the air intakes on the side panels and added small airscoops to the top panels.More air circulating seems to do the trick.The panels on the spyder are TOO restrictive for a real positive airflow around the engine compartment and components.I can tell you that it has made a TREMENDOUS difference on the durability and cooling on the bike.The work took a full weekend and was worth the time.I prefer to go for performance than cosmetics when it comes to the spyder.ITS A GREAT MACHINE!
It would be great to see some pictures of your work-if you could make the time. This would greatly help many Spyder owners.

[jarhd3]

When i looked at all the adjustments and redos i did,I realized that there was alot of procedures that were done in very tight spaces and some of the mods would be difficult to show/illustrate in pictures.With the help of my son(who knows computers better than I do)I will have him take pics of the cosmetics first and then some of the pics of the fuel lines and wire/cable insulations.I dont do too well posting pics on this site,my son is much better,give me a day or two.I will tell you that the scoops I used came fm a boat supply store locally and are unfinished fiberglass w/2"intakes and about 3 and a half in.long.mounted on the top side panels and painted gloss black.Holes cutout under were half in. dia.the length of the scoop and the underside w/fine screen cut to fit to keep out large chunks of stuff fm being sucked into the inner compartment.After long rides now the top plastic feels much cooler to the touch.

[BeRight]

When i looked at all the adjustments and redos i did,I realized that there was alot of procedures that were done in very tight spaces and some of the mods would be difficult to show/illustrate in pictures.With the help of my son(who knows computers better than I do)I will have him take pics of the cosmetics first and then some of the pics of the fuel lines and wire/cable insulations.I dont do too well posting pics on this site,my son is much better,give me a day or two.I will tell you that the scoops I used came fm a boat supply store locally and are unfinished fiberglass w/2"intakes and about 3 and a half in.long.mounted on the top side panels and painted gloss black.Holes cutout under were half in. dia.the length of the scoop and the underside w/fine screen cut to fit to keep out large chunks of stuff fm being sucked into the inner compartment.After long rides now the top plastic feels much cooler to the touch.

Thanks jarhd3 (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/member.php?u=1557) I look forward to your sons handy work.

Besides the normal top/side/middle body panels what else did you have to remove in order to get to lines,etc.? Did you have to remove airbox, trunk, console?

[M2Wild]

As always .... :bowdown: to ataDude for his great observations and suggestions. I shall add looms to my do list for this winter.

[Donzo]

after all the postings on this site,fires, rough running,etc;I went over my spyder w/my nephew who has a degree in engineering fm MIT and found so manyproblems w/production assem.Alot of heat builds up inside the spyder body panels and this constant heat buildup is causing fatigue on hoses and elec.harnesses.Some connectors are starting to go soft and pliable and could easily disintegrate or just fall apart and fail.We spent the whole day seeing things on the spyder that didnt make sense.Rerouted some hoses and wire looms and connectors,replaced some of the clamping devices and replaced all the fuel lines w/braided lines and aircraft type connections.Reinsulated all the plugs and conections w/aircraft quality insulation looms(nephew is pilot/owner enthusiast-20yrs.experience).Also added more ventilation to the engine area by trimming the air intakes on the side panels and added small airscoops to the top panels.More air circulating seems to do the trick.The panels on the spyder are TOO restrictive for a real positive airflow around the engine compartment and components.I can tell you that it has made a TREMENDOUS difference on the durability and cooling on the bike.The work took a full weekend and was worth the time.I prefer to go for performance than cosmetics when it comes to the spyder.ITS A GREAT MACHINE!


Can you post some pics of what you did to the panels and scoops added?

[ataDude]

I have one other important thought along the same line.

I noticed quite a few folks say that they've plugged the vacuum hose going to the injectors from the canister... and that they're happy... and seem to leave it at that.

That, I believe, was described ONLY as a "test" to determine if the purge valve was the cause of a performance problem experienced after the update.

It is only ONE-HALF of a fix, though. You still have fumes and possibly liquid fuel going to the canister... except now it's NOT being sucked back into the engine... it's just sitting there... saturating the canister.

You need to either:

1. Perform the complete "canisterectomy" described in other threads, or

2. Install a different, longer vent hose to exit at the rear of the bike like I mentioned above.

Without the above changes, I believe that you're actually making the possibility of the fuel-to-the-exhaust situation even worse due to the (now) lack of canister purging.

Again, this is just my opinion... and I'm no engineering expert.

Part #23 below is the vent hose to which I am referring (schematic courtesy of BRP Parts):
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http://12.2.215.22/Scripts/ImgServ.exe/convert?ilFN=e%3A%5Cwebcat%5Cimages%5C1S%5C06%5CY0 801%5C14Y0801.TIF&ilSC=25&ilIV=0&ilBR=0&ilIF=G&ilRE=8



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[Smylinacha]

Off road, no, that is for my BMW F650GS.

Fire trails and dirt roads, ranch & mining roads, yes. yes. yes!

There are some roads in and to some of the National Parks and Indian Reservations that I cannot take the Spyder on - my Jeep's skid-plate even gets a real workout.

But, once you get off the "main" roads here in New Mexico, it can be very interesting - even if they are paved.

I love this place. Not a lot of frogs, either.

Tom

Hopefully me and HDX will get out your way one of these days! We'll visit you and then onto visit Dudley and KJen!:2thumbs:

[ataDude]

...

Also ATADUDE... I counted my shop cloths and I am not missing any. So that problem came from somewhere else. I knew that I just couldn't be that careless. I've got all the plastic off now looking for any other surprises.

Super write up you have... also wrapping the evap canister with reflective heat shield.

Count your shop rags? Ken, are you anal retentive or what? :D :yikes: :D

And, thanks.

BTW... you might as well tell everyone else the shop rag story! :chat:

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[Longlegs]

:popcorn:Shop rag story??

[ataDude]

:popcorn:Shop rag story??

I'll let Ken explain that one... if he wants.

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[ataDude]

I had just dumped all the shop cloths...
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Thanks for telling the story, Ken. And, maybe you're not anal retentive on the shop towels after all. :D
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