D.I.Y. oil change o ring kit

[Cobwebs]

Searched but couldn't find the sizes for all the o rings and crush washers to complete an oil change.I need to stock up from ebay does anyone have this information at hand? I know I should have saved the old ones but didn't see the need at the time.:banghead:
I have bought from BajaRon before but freight cost is silly now for such little items from US.Mostly postage free from China.:banghead: Local suppliers buy from China and multiply by five or more so they're out:banghead: Can Am blackmail you by requiring the purchase of their oil to get the full o- ring kit so I've divorced them:banghead:
Also why one copper and one aluminium crush washer, anyone know the science behind that.Can one be substituded for the other? Please help my head hurts.:cheers:

[pegasus1300]

I don't have the information you are looking for per se,but I do know this,if you want the correct o rings and copper washers(they are not crush washers) then contact BajaRon a supporting vendor on this sight and he will fix you up with as many as you want all in a package. Check the Home page for his info.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Searched but couldn't find the sizes for all the o rings and crush washers to complete an oil change.I need to stock up from ebay does anyone have this information at hand? I know I should have saved the old ones but didn't see the need at the time.:banghead:
I have bought from BajaRon before but freight cost is silly now for such little items from US.Mostly postage free from China.:banghead: Local suppliers buy from China and multiply by five or more so they're out:banghead: Can Am blackmail you by requiring the purchase of their oil to get the full o- ring kit so I've divorced them:banghead:
Also why one copper and one aluminium crush washer, anyone know the science behind that.Can one be substituded for the other? Please help my head hurts.:cheers:

I re-use " O " rings all the time .... my 14 RT has had 10 oil changes and the " O " rings ( filter and plugs ) have been re-used for all of them ..... a rubber " O " ring that is not part of " moving " parts rarely needs replacing .... when / if they break replace ..... jmho ..... Mike

[Cobwebs]

I don't have the information you are looking for per se,but I do know this,if you want the correct o rings and copper washers(they are not crush washers) then contact BajaRon a supporting vendor on this sight and he will fix you up with as many as you want all in a package. Check the Home page for his info.

OK for you guys close by but out here in the sticks if I order a dozen sets its A$173 with $37 of that being postage.:banghead:
If I can work out the sizes I'll have a lifetime supply for way less than the postage alone.

[Cobwebs]

I re-use " O " rings all the time .... my 14 RT has had 10 oil changes and the " O " rings ( filter and plugs ) have been re-used for all of them ..... a rubber " O " ring that is not part of " moving " parts rarely needs replacing .... when / if they break replace ..... jmho ..... Mike

What are the implications of one of the O rings splitting under pressure on the sump bolt or filter thingo though Mike.They seem like a fancy design for some reason to me. Could be the first indication of one letting go is a rattle :dontknow::pray: For a few cents and an easy change why risk it?

[trikermutha]

I went to mcmastercare and bought washers with the rubber seals on them per JCThorne recommendation. They are reusable .. its posted somewhere just need to do a search and find them now for sizes.

Found it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?126537-Oil-Drain-Plug-Replacement-2018-RT&highlight=sealing+washers

[Greven]

I went to mcmastercare and bought washers with the rubber seals on them per JCThorne recommendation. They are reusable .. its posted somewhere just need to do a search and find them now for sizes.

Found it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?126537-Oil-Drain-Plug-Replacement-2018-RT&highlight=sealing+washers

They are also called Tredo washers, might help when searching for them :)

[trikermutha]

They are also called Tredo washers, might help when searching for them :)

I am sure they are called other things too like bonding washers.
That should help too on searching. ��

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

What are the implications of one of the O rings splitting under pressure on the sump bolt or filter thingo though Mike.They seem like a fancy design for some reason to me. Could be the first indication of one letting go is a rattle :dontknow::pray: For a few cents and an easy change why risk it?

IMHO, you ( me ) are more likely to damage a rubber washer / O-ring, either removing it or putting it on ..... Mike :thumbup:

[ARtraveler]

RE: Shipping

Please note the OP is from Australia. That is the reason for the complaints about high shipping costs. :bowdown:

[BajaRon]

Shipping has gotten outrageous! The reason China can ship for 'Free' is that the government subsides it.

I can ship 4 seal kits for $8.30 USD. 8 seal kits for $9.35 USD. And 12 seal kits for $10.40 USD.

The seal kits are $6.95 each. 12 seal kits would be $83.40 USD. Making 12 seal kits (delivered to Australia) about $136.00 AUD total cost.

[pegasus1300]

AR thank you for pointing that out. I had not noticed that, it does make a big difference.

[Cobwebs]

I went to mcmastercare and bought washers with the rubber seals on them per JCThorne recommendation. They are reusable .. its posted somewhere just need to do a search and find them now for sizes.

Found it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?126537-Oil-Drain-Plug-Replacement-2018-RT&highlight=sealing+washers

Good information, thankyou.I wonder does the thickness matter. I've found some at 1.5mm and others 2.0mm, given that there are two o rings sealing something in the engine would half a millimetre screw that up somehow?:dontknow:

[BajaRon]

Good information, thankyou.I wonder does the thickness matter. I've found some at 1.5mm and others 2.0mm, given that there are two o rings sealing something in the engine would half a millimetre screw that up somehow?:dontknow:

It matters to a point. It depends on application. Low or no pressure O-Ring applications like the Spyder are pretty forgiving.

It's not a primary and secondary seal. 1 O-Ring seals one end, and the other seals the other end with a flow port in-between. Both need to work as they have no secondary backup.

[Cobwebs]

IMHO, you ( me ) are more likely to damage a rubber washer / O-ring, either removing it or putting it on ..... Mike :thumbup:

My first oil change did prove your point actually Mike. I think it was the green o ring had a small piece split on it that was still attached to the inner wall of the o ring..........just!
Came from the factory like it, only visible when I removed it.Glad I did, who knows where it would have ended up if it came free. So for me the moral of the story was, its the bits you can't see that can cause the grief.

[Cobwebs]

Shipping has gotten outrageous! The reason China can ship for 'Free' is that the government subsides it.

I can ship 4 seal kits for $8.30 USD. 8 seal kits for $9.35 USD. And 12 seal kits for $10.40 USD.

The seal kits are $6.95 each. 12 seal kits would be $83.40 USD. Making 12 seal kits (delivered to Australia) about $136.00 AUD total cost.

Free market isn't exactly the mantra of USA either but I digress.
I must be missing something Ron, fleabay is quoting me $119.89 for the goods, $37.13 postage $15.71 GST.
Total $172.73

The heck with that come on spill the beans break out the vernier :helpsmilie::cheers:

[BajaRon]

Free market isn't exactly the mantra of USA either but I digress.
I must be missing something Ron, fleabay is quoting me $119.89 for the goods, $37.13 postage $15.71 GST.
Total $172.73

The heck with that come on spill the beans break out the vernier :helpsmilie::cheers:

What you are missing are the eBay/Paypal fees, their shipping policies and the new (we're here to help) national tax being collected for most countries now. The most expensive place to purchase anything from me is eBay. The least expensive way to get it is by a direct sale.

And you're right. America has been a socialist country in many ways for a long time. And we're headed for much more. I don't know why people can't see it. Saying that you're not socialist isn't the same as actually being non-socialist. We have gotten away with it for this long because our GDP is so tremendous. Sooner or later, our chickens will come home to roost. But I'm not supposed to talk about these realities... ;-)

[BertRemington]

What came out of my 1330 was a copper washer on the gearbox drain plug (TL) and an aluminum washer on engine drain plug (still on plug). My Gold Plug MP-18 came with an aluminum washer (TR). My Can-Am XPS oil change kit came with aluminum washers (ML and MR). I used captive seal washers instead (BL and BR).
187998

[Cobwebs]

What came out of my 1330 was a copper washer on the gearbox drain plug (TL) and an aluminum washer on engine drain plug (still on plug). My Gold Plug MP-18 came with an aluminum washer (TR). My Can-Am XPS oil change kit came with aluminum washers (ML and MR). I used captive seal washers instead (BL and BR).
187998

What thickness captive seals did you use Bert ?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I need to stock up from ebay does anyone have this information at hand?
Wasn't at hand, but I got it! This should help, I think! Ever tried measuring the diameter of a flexible ring? My numbers should be close, but they are a bit squishy! (pun intended!)

The O-ring numbers are OD x Thickness. The washer numbers are OD x ID. All are mm.

188000

[BertRemington]

CW -- I bought this assortment https://www.amazon.com/Hilitchi-180-Pcs-Metric-Bonded-Assortment/dp/B07CKVYWD4/

The rubber insert is 2.5 - to 2.6mm thick and the metal rim is 2mm thick. I used a digital torque wrench with the same settings for metal washers although 15Nm would probably be adequate.

Turns out that assortment was handy. I've been using the washers as spacers, etc.

[Cobwebs]

Wasn't at hand, but I got it! This should help, I think! Ever tried measuring the diameter of a flexible ring? My numbers should be close, but they are a bit squishy! (pun intended!)

The O-ring numbers are OD x Thickness. The washer numbers are OD x ID. All are mm.

188000

Come on this is a family show Idaho :D

Your the man that's perfect thanks !!!

[Cobwebs]

CW -- I bought this assortment https://www.amazon.com/Hilitchi-180-Pcs-Metric-Bonded-Assortment/dp/B07CKVYWD4/

The rubber insert is 2.5 - to 2.6mm thick and the metal rim is 2mm thick. I used a digital torque wrench with the same settings for metal washers although 15Nm would probably be adequate.

Turns out that assortment was handy. I've been using the washers as spacers, etc.

Excellent thankyou. I'll start amassing my kit.:thumbup:

[trikermutha]

Good information, thankyou.I wonder does the thickness matter. I've found some at 1.5mm and others 2.0mm, given that there are two o rings sealing something in the engine would half a millimetre screw that up somehow?:dontknow:
The ones I used were 1.1 to 1.4 thickness from mcmaster carr

[Cobwebs]

The ones I used were 1.1 to 1.4 thickness from mcmaster carr

Is that the stock thickness also do you know? Perhaps IdahoMtnSpyder could wave his magic wand over one for us. Probably doesn't matter according to Ron but given a choice.:thumbup:

[trikermutha]

Is that the stock thickness also do you know? Perhaps IdahoMtnSpyder could wave his magic wand over one for us. Probably doesn't matter according to Ron but given a choice.:thumbup:

Not without measuring them. But if he wants to wave the wand I am all for it. :thumbup:

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Is that the stock thickness also do you know? Perhaps IdahoMtnSpyder could wave his magic wand over one for us. Probably doesn't matter according to Ron but given a choice.:thumbup:
You talking about the the O-rings or the washers? The ones I measured is the kit that Baja Ron provides. Both washers are close to 1.35 mm thick. I didn't list their thicknesses above as I figured that wouldn't matter much. As far as the O-rings go, thicker would be better. If they're oiled good before putting them in they should slide in fairly easily. The O-ring thicknesses I list are pretty close to real as that is the one dimension where the ring is fairly firm. I did all the measurements using a Pittsburgh (Harbor Freight) vernier caliper w/ digital readout. I did forget to check for zero setting before I did the measurements but when I pulled the caliper out of the box this morning and turned it on it showed only 0.01 to 0.02 mm, so my readings above might be a touch high, but certainly not as much as 0.1 mm.

Baja Ron, how close to OEM diameter and thickness are the ones you sell?

[Cobwebs]

You talking about the the O-rings or the washers? The ones I measured is the kit that Baja Ron provides. Both washers are close to 1.35 mm thick. I didn't list their thicknesses above as I figured that wouldn't matter much. As far as the O-rings go, thicker would be better. If they're oiled good before putting them in they should slide in fairly easily. The O-ring thicknesses I list are pretty close to real as that is the one dimension where the ring is fairly firm. I did all the measurements using a Pittsburgh (Harbor Freight) vernier caliper w/ digital readout. I did forget to check for zero setting before I did the measurements but when I pulled the caliper out of the box this morning and turned it on it showed only 0.01 to 0.02 mm, so my readings above might be a touch high, but certainly not as much as 0.1 mm.

Baja Ron, how close to OEM diameter and thickness are the ones you sell?

The washers, reason being with the sump plug the two o rings must have to line up with something internally to seal completely and didn't know how critical that was.
If you can imagine a washer say five millimetres thick it would render the seal incomplete if you get what I'm talking about.
Transmission side shouldn't matter as it's just a basic plug.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The washers, reason being with the sump plug the two o rings must have to line up with something internally to seal completely and didn't know how critical that was.
If you can imagine a washer say five millimetres thick it would render the seal incomplete if you get what I'm talking about.
Transmission side shouldn't matter as it's just a basic plug.
OK, I did wonder about that. I'm thinking that the bore the O-rings go into would be long enough to tolerate a variation in the washer thickness of maybe a mm, but then you know what happens when you do your own thinking! So the 1.4 mm thickness Triker mentions is essentially the same as what I measured. If the one that is 1.1 mm is the trans plug then it should work quite well also.

Your next challenge will be to determine which O-ring goes into which groove! It ain't quite as straightforward as one would expect because of the closeness in sizes of the rings, and IIRC, the grooves are wide enough to give quite a bit of slop for the ring to fit into.

[PMK]

Consider too, Durometer and material composition. As I recall, the oil filter stem and cap, all being plastic, uses a low durometer material, likely to prevent from cracking the oil filter housing on the engine. I believe even 70A would have more force than stock expanding the plastic towards failure, but maybe not.

The long drain plug I thought used green Viton O rings vs Nitrile. Most likely for better performance under heat.

I have kept a set of original oem O rings and drain plug gaskets. Sorry, just simply to lazy to measure them again. Years ago, I planned to do as you are. When the cost of the Viton O rings was added in, and low durometer stuff, I now simply visually inspect for concerns and no permanent set. Reuse if viable, replace if not.

[PMK]

Bored at 2am, accurately measured with a digital vernier caliper, and the large cap O ring ID checked for roundness and accuracy on applicable tooling.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the oem O rings are typical black nitrile material. As can be seen, they use a soft silicone type and high temp Viton type.

Small drain plug gasket is copper, large drain is gasket is aluminum.

Forgot too how many drain plugs I accumulated when dimensionally checking them on account of failures. Have two sets of Dimple Drain Plugs, One set of Gold Drain Plugs, and a set of oem drain plugs. Ironically, others have stated aftermarket drain plugs fail, yet no issues here and, when I was doing the comparison, I was handed a failed oem drain plug.

What does it mean...likely the torque spec is for a new engine with clean dry threads, and second, if you must torque your drain plug, adjust accordingly for a wet torque AND, be certain you have a good or excellent accurate torque wrench that you are properly using. This means correct range markings and set correctly.

All the best with your quest to save a few dollars, I get it, but certainly hope you get the correct type and material O rings. Never fun finding melted, swollen O rings or worse, split housings from excessive expanding force.

[Cobwebs]

Bored at 2am, accurately measured with a digital vernier caliper, and the large cap O ring ID checked for roundness and accuracy on applicable tooling.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the oem O rings are typical black nitrile material. As can be seen, they use a soft silicone type and high temp Viton type.

Small drain plug gasket is copper, large drain is gasket is aluminum.

Forgot too how many drain plugs I accumulated when dimensionally checking them on account of failures. Have two sets of Dimple Drain Plugs, One set of Gold Drain Plugs, and a set of oem drain plugs. Ironically, others have stated aftermarket drain plugs fail, yet no issues here and, when I was doing the comparison, I was handed a failed oem drain plug.

What does it mean...likely the torque spec is for a new engine with clean dry threads, and second, if you must torque your drain plug, adjust accordingly for a wet torque AND, be certain you have a good or excellent accurate torque wrench that you are properly using. This means correct range markings and set correctly.

All the best with your quest to save a few dollars, I get it, but certainly hope you get the correct type and material O rings. Never fun finding melted, swollen O rings or worse, split housings from excessive expanding force.



Thanks PMK, hmmm that makes it a bit trickier. One moment while I gather my thoughts:popcorn::coffee::cheers:

[PMK]

BTW, not sure why there is a dimension difference and material color / difference between what others posted and the dimensions / materials I came up with. The O rings I measured are new unused BRP products for a 1330. Possibly later versions use different materials, but those are the real deal and match oem O rings that get removed.

I went back and compared to what had been previously posted. Noticed the differences and double checked the cross section thickness of mine.

Good luck with it. Some seem available while others may be elusive. Regardless, if you get a substantial oil leak, not only can you trash an engine, but you could coat the rear tire and truly define this aggressive riding style so many claim they have...

[Cobwebs]

BTW, not sure why there is a dimension difference and material color / difference between what others posted and the dimensions / materials I came up with. The O rings I measured are new unused BRP products for a 1330. Possibly later versions use different materials, but those are the real deal and match oem O rings that get removed.

I went back and compared to what had been previously posted. Noticed the differences and double checked the cross section thickness of mine.

Good luck with it. Some seem available while others may be elusive. Regardless, if you get a substantial oil leak, not only can you trash an engine, but you could coat the rear tire and truly define this aggressive riding style so many claim they have...

If BRP had a heart (or a brain instead of a blackmail plan) they would sell the kit with a filter minus their low grade oil then none of this would be relevent.:banghead:

[Peter Aawen]

If BRP had a heart (or a brain instead of a blackmail plan) they would sell the kit with a filter minus their low grade oil then none of this would be relevent.:banghead:

:agree: . And IF they'd done that from the very start, there'd have been little call for others to supply products to suit that need/fill that gap in the market, so they'd probably have caught ALL of that section of the market and so they'd have sold and still be selling a HELLUVA lot more than they'll ever sell now!! :shocked:

[trikermutha]

Since the crush washers in most cases dont seal after being reused and over tightening the plugs dont help. JCthorne uses the sealing washers and they work very well. They seal the first time and dont have to over tighten the drain plugs.

Now I know someone mentioned on another thread reheating the copper crush washer and reusing them. That seems to work too from what he states.

Anyway good luck!

[PMK]

If BRP had a heart (or a brain instead of a blackmail plan) they would sell the kit with a filter minus their low grade oil then none of this would be relevent.:banghead:

Guessing that finding the correct O rings is not quite a simple task. I had researched this a long while back and came up short. The other night when I measured them for you, I checked my typical O ring supplier and had no luck getting them all from them.

All good to save money, and Spyder owners can be some of the most frugal folks out there. Simply though, be sure the risk vs reward makes saving a few dollars worth it. Especially considering how infrequently you probably accomplish an oil change.

[PMK]

Since the crush washers in most cases dont seal after being reused and over tightening the plugs dont help. JCthorne uses the sealing washers and they work very well. They seal the first time and dont have to over tighten the drain plugs.

Now I know someone mentioned on another thread reheating the copper crush washer and reusing them. That seems to work too from what he states.

Anyway good luck!

I have used sealing washers for decades on aircraft applications. Long before others were using them on Spyders, I had been running them on the drain plugs of not only our Spyder but other vehicles too.

Not all sealing washers are the same in regards to design. Since the Spyders Rotax engine uses a funky tapered style head on the short 1330 drain plug, I found some sealing washer designs are marginal at best in sealing. Same on the long double O ring drain plug. In simple terms, it is best to ensure the rubber sealing surface avoids being within the threaded area. If the sealing O ring enters the threaded section, the rubber is not crushed uniformly and could leak with use or extrude into the threads rendering the rubber portion cut and could fail if reused.

I have seen also, for automotive applications, rubber coated washers for oil drain plugs. If the correct size is available this may be another viable alternative that offers a greater sealing surface area.

As I mentioned previously, it would likely be spectacular if oil sprayed onto your rear tire while riding. Be safe and be careful.

[Cobwebs]

Guessing that finding the correct O rings is not quite a simple task. I had researched this a long while back and came up short. The other night when I measured them for you, I checked my typical O ring supplier and had no luck getting them all from them.

All good to save money, and Spyder owners can be some of the most frugal folks out there. Simply though, be sure the risk vs reward makes saving a few dollars worth it. Especially considering how infrequently you probably accomplish an oil change.

The more I search the more elusive the exact sizes become and some that are close are like $10 each :banghead: Hard to believe its so complicated to change a few litres of oil. What an evil plan on BRP's behalf.
I wonder do people who have the dealer do their maintenance ask to see the replaced o rings and seals.I wouldn't mind betting they don't use the official retail pack that us mugs are supposed to cough up for.Most likely the oil comes out of the 200 litre drum in the corner and a new filter if your lucky and thats it.

[trikermutha]

I have used sealing washers for decades on aircraft applications. Long before others were using them on Spyders, I had been running them on the drain plugs of not only our Spyder but other vehicles too.

Not all sealing washers are the same in regards to design. Since the Spyders Rotax engine uses a funky tapered style head on the short 1330 drain plug, I found some sealing washer designs are marginal at best in sealing. Same on the long double O ring drain plug. In simple terms, it is best to ensure the rubber sealing surface avoids being within the threaded area. If the sealing O ring enters the threaded section, the rubber is not crushed uniformly and could leak with use or extrude into the threads rendering the rubber portion cut and could fail if reused.

I have seen also, for automotive applications, rubber coated washers for oil drain plugs. If the correct size is available this may be another viable alternative that offers a greater sealing surface area.

As I mentioned previously, it would likely be spectacular if oil sprayed onto your rear tire while riding. Be safe and be careful.

Why would it be spectacular if oil sprayed on my rear wheel.:hun:

[irvin48]

I've reused the washers and have never had a problem. I do change the o rings. Use Baja Ron's products.

[NuttyBuckeye]

Bored at 2am, accurately measured with a digital vernier caliper, and the large cap O ring ID checked for roundness and accuracy on applicable tooling.

As I mentioned earlier, none of the oem O rings are typical black nitrile material. As can be seen, they use a soft silicone type and high temp Viton type.

Small drain plug gasket is copper, large drain is gasket is aluminum.

Forgot too how many drain plugs I accumulated when dimensionally checking them on account of failures. Have two sets of Dimple Drain Plugs, One set of Gold Drain Plugs, and a set of oem drain plugs. Ironically, others have stated aftermarket drain plugs fail, yet no issues here and, when I was doing the comparison, I was handed a failed oem drain plug.

What does it mean...likely the torque spec is for a new engine with clean dry threads, and second, if you must torque your drain plug, adjust accordingly for a wet torque AND, be certain you have a good or excellent accurate torque wrench that you are properly using. This means correct range markings and set correctly.

All the best with your quest to save a few dollars, I get it, but certainly hope you get the correct type and material O rings. Never fun finding melted, swollen O rings or worse, split housings from excessive expanding force.

Spot on regarding the seals and torque. Any residual oil and you are basically lube torquing which will reduce the required torque. By what percentage, I don’t know. Need test equipment for that. I found this site to be a pretty good place to dig deep into all that is engineering.

The Engineering Toolbox

I replace my seals because it’s good maintenance practice…for me.

[BertRemington]

Concur with metal bonded sealing washers for the engine/transmission mating surfaces. I use a 1/4" digital torque wrench and stop when the warning light comes on (ie before the full torque sonic alert) using service manual torque values. Works a treat.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

What are the implications of one of the O rings splitting under pressure on the sump bolt or filter thingo though Mike.They seem like a fancy design for some reason to me. Could be the first indication of one letting go is a rattle :dontknow::pray: For a few cents and an easy change why risk it?

A few cents ???? .... you just quoted $ 173.00 !!!! ... AND the oil drain plugs will NEVER rattle, if yours are there's a serious problem ..... those rubber " O " rings are for oil leakage, not to prevent Rattling ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

[Cobwebs]

A few cents ???? .... you just quoted $ 173.00 !!!! ... AND the oil drain plugs will NEVER rattle, if yours are there's a serious problem ..... those rubber " O " rings are for oil leakage, not to prevent Rattling ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

Was supposed to only be a few cents if I could have sourced what I wanted but unfortunately not to be.
Was more concerned as to the o rings deteriorating over time and maybe:dontknow: causing an oil pressure drop , starvation of some sort, incorrect oil level reading or my thingo to turn green.:yikes:
Those drain plugs are a weird ass design that I don't fully understand so caution is the name of the game.
For a bit of context, just for an experiment Mike next oil change you do leave the o rings off all together simulating a failed one and report back to us if you hear a big end rattling after a few miles:joke:
Washing grease off my hands in unleaded is my sort of risk but I draw the line at reusing rubbers:wrong:

[bikerbillone]

If oil drain plugs rattle there's a big problem.

[ulflyer]

If any of you are regulars at your dealer try asking the mechanic if he has any to spare. Sometimes they seem to have extras!!

Like many others, I don't change mine out very often.