Wheel alignment specifications

[RedRover]

I see several references in this forum concerning Lazer Alignment but have not found actual factory specifications anywhere.
Anybody know what the spec's are?

[RayBJ]

I'm told my 2020 RT was set to 1/2in toe-in. No clue if that's optimal.

[Cobwebs]

If your paying a professional wheel aligner you don't need to know.Doing it yourself like I did I set my F3 at 15mm seems ok to me.

[RedRover]

Answering my own question here. Found in the service manual that the specified Toe In is 0 degrees +/- 0.2 degrees.
Found nothing on caster or camber. Not adjustable anyway I believe.

[RayBJ]

Answering my own question here. Found in the service manual that the specified Toe In is 0 degrees +/- 0.2 degrees.
Found nothing on caster or camber. Not adjustable anyway I believe.

I believe that equates to 0 - 5/8 in toe-in.

[Cobwebs]

Weights,suspension settings,road conditions,riding style all play a part if you want to be pedantic about it so no one recommended setting.
BRP and lots of dealers pass the buck to the experts.:banghead:
Poorest example of vehicle setup I've ever encountered from a manufacturer and most of their dealers.:banghead:

[PMK]

Red Rover, in the interest of your safety, you might find this informative and correct, maybe not. Sorry, I prefer to simply hang out behind the scenes, if at all, these days with no intentions of posting unless I notice important safety information posted incorrectly by folks here.

There is a lot happening with the Spyder front suspension and simplistic kart type steering. The Spyders are prone to large amounts of bump steer, and this further complicates good handling manners, minimal tire scrub, reduced tire wear and best fuel mileage.

Your post mentions following the manual at 0 to +- 0.2 degrees. Choose wisely. Myself, you need all toe in, not 0 and certainly no toe out.

I have aligned our Spyder and friends Spyders myself without a ROLO laser setup. I now have the ROLO equipment and BUDS, plus more tooling I designed.

You might consider using this link to help you align your Spyder. The folks offering a spec to align to have not been clear as to how that spec is measured, and therefore could make for a very dangerous or poor handling machine with tire and chassis wear concerns.

All the best with it.

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

[ButterSmooth]

...

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

Using that calculator the toe in should be 21/128" or 0.168". That sounds a lot more reasonable than 5/8" or 15mm. That much toe in would be a real tire scrubber.

[Cobwebs]

Using that calculator the toe in should be 21/128" or 0.168". That sounds a lot more reasonable than 5/8" or 15mm. That much toe in would be a real tire scrubber.

When using lasers the targets are set at about 5 times the wheel diameter away from the hub centre therefore 3mm toe in shows as 15mm.Makes it more accurate that way. All useless information if RedRover is engaging a professional as he should/would know this if familiar with the Rolo lasers.
In the D.I.Y world (if that is his aim, he never said) the expensive Rolo system or Buds program is overkill and not necessary. Best part is you can tweak away at it with multiple settings till you get the perfect setup for you, not some averaged out measurement dictated by the need for a number and all for an outlay of less than fifty bucks. :firstplace:

[RedRover]

Thanks to all who answered my posting. I was just looking for toe expressed in degrees so I could apply the math. Zero degrees seems reasonable and relatively easy to verify, no math required.
I bought my 2015 RT at an estate sale a month ago so there was no conversation with the previous owner about who serviced the machine or modifications or history. Like a lot of bikers, moving up to a Spyder, I find the ride a little unnerving on crowned roads and heavy cross winds and am looking for any mechanical fixes. Verifying wheel settings is just one of those things to check. Judging from several other postings in this forum, I expect a Baja Ron equalizer bar will be a big improvement and give me an excuse to fiddle around in the shop while the snow flies this winter.
You folks are the greatest at answering my novice questions and I really appreciate your responses. Thank you!
P.S. I just found the "tool kit" velcro strapped to the bottom of the seat a couple of days ago. This machine has a lot of secrets.

[Steve W.]

Like a lot of bikers, moving up to a Spyder, I find the ride a little unnerving on crowned roads and heavy cross winds and am looking for any mechanical fixes. Verifying wheel settings is just one of those things to check.
Like those others, we have moved "up" to a Spyer rather recently. We also experienced the wandering. Had the local dealer check the alignment, he called it "good", without giving any numbers. We changed the tires, virtually all of the wandering stopped. Had another alignment check at a rally (laser check this time), it was also pronounced "good", so the change was all tires.

Recently had a Baja Ron swaybar installed. My wife says the bike is easier to handle, she is not as tired at the end of the day, but it hasn't changed any problems with wandering.

Bottom line: if you still have the stock tires (sorry, I can't even type the name), get something else. ANYTHING else. A quick search of the forums for "tires" will give you several weeks worth of reading. In a nutshell, I don't know of anyone that has said that any one brand (other than stock) is junk. Some have tried more than one brand and found one to be better than another, but everybody agrees that ANY 'car tire' is better than the stock tires.

.
"

[RazzleH]

Like those others, we have moved "up" to a Spyer rather recently. We also experienced the wandering. Had the local dealer check the alignment, he called it "good", without giving any numbers. We changed the tires, virtually all of the wandering stopped. Had another alignment check at a rally (laser check this time), it was also pronounced "good", so the change was all tires.

Recently had a Baja Ron swaybar installed. My wife says the bike is easier to handle, she is not as tired at the end of the day, but it hasn't changed any problems with wandering.

Bottom line: if you still have the stock tires (sorry, I can't even type the name), get something else. ANYTHING else. A quick search of the forums for "tires" will give you several weeks worth of reading. In a nutshell, I don't know of anyone that has said that any one brand (other than stock) is junk. Some have tried more than one brand and found one to be better than another, but everybody agrees that ANY 'car tire' is better than the stock tires.

.
"

No, not everybody agrees. Some suggest that poor ryding technique is too often blamed on tyres or something other than self. It is way too easy to blame and appear to be a skilled and well informed ryder. It's good to remember that much of what we read here is personal opinion and not necessarily factual when put to the tests.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

RedRover, what hasn't been stated flat out but what PMK alluded to, with laser alignment you need to correlate the toe in/out number in inches with how far away from the tire center you're measuring it. A 1/2" toe-in at the tire surface is way different from 1/2" measured 5 feet from the tire. You're on track to think in terms of degrees angle, but that does have to be converted to distance to be able to measure it. To back up PMK's comment about toe-in, comments on here over the past several years have consistently stated that the best tracking is achieved with some amount of toe-in, not zero and not toe-out.

Steve's comment about OEM tires is relevant. I had my 2014 RTS aligned by Squared Away while at Spyderfest in 2016. I had about 3300 miles on it. Immediately I felt it wanting to pull to the right. I went back and Joe double checked the alignment. It was dead on but I still had the pull to the right. At about 13,000 miles I took the Kendas off and replaced them with Continentals. Immediately, no more pulling to the right!

[redrazor]

Using that calculator the toe in should be 21/128" or 0.168". That sounds a lot more reasonable than 5/8" or 15mm. That much toe in would be a real tire scrubber.

:agree:Ive always been fine setting toe-in at 1/8 to 3/16 inch on all types of cars, trucks, go-carts etc. Too bad they're not all as easy to do as I-beam front axels allow. My 2014 RTL was a real bugger. Very hard to get to every thing.:gaah:

[jcthorne]

Thanks to all who answered my posting. I was just looking for toe expressed in degrees so I could apply the math. Zero degrees seems reasonable and relatively easy to verify, no math required.
I bought my 2015 RT at an estate sale a month ago so there was no conversation with the previous owner about who serviced the machine or modifications or history. Like a lot of bikers, moving up to a Spyder, I find the ride a little unnerving on crowned roads and heavy cross winds and am looking for any mechanical fixes. Verifying wheel settings is just one of those things to check. Judging from several other postings in this forum, I expect a Baja Ron equalizer bar will be a big improvement and give me an excuse to fiddle around in the shop while the snow flies this winter.
You folks are the greatest at answering my novice questions and I really appreciate your responses. Thank you!
P.S. I just found the "tool kit" velcro strapped to the bottom of the seat a couple of days ago. This machine has a lot of secrets.

I can tell you without a doubt that if you set the toe to zero, you will have a very poorly handling Spyder as the toe will go from pos to neg and back during every turn or lane change. Zero is the WRONG answer.

[ButterSmooth]

I can tell you without a doubt that if you set the toe to zero, you will have a very poorly handling Spyder as the toe will go from pos to neg and back during every turn or lane change. Zero is the WRONG answer.

Do you by chance know the range of toe change over the full suspension travel? And, is the Ackermann compensation correct or does it muck with the toe as well?

[dicko]

The workshop manual for GS / RS (SM5/SE5) has toe-in = 0 mm (+/- 0.5) and camber angle 0 +/- 0.5 degrees.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The workshop manual for GS / RS (SM5/SE5) has toe-in = 0 mm (+/- 0.5) and camber angle 0 +/- 0.5 degrees.
Several years and thousands of miles of owner experience has determined that that toe-in spec is not good, if not flat out wrong. Toe-in only, i.e. no toe-out nor zero toe, is what yields the best handling characteristic.

[jcthorne]

Do you by chance know the range of toe change over the full suspension travel? And, is the Ackermann compensation correct or does it muck with the toe as well?

Lots of things effect that. Load weight, spring rates to name two. We adjust to 3/4 to 1 1/4 toe in measured at 120" between targets. Which end of that range we shoot for depends on load and spring rate.

[jcthorne]

The workshop manual for GS / RS (SM5/SE5) has toe-in = 0 mm (+/- 0.5) and camber angle 0 +/- 0.5 degrees.

Not the first instance where the shop manual has turned out to be flat out wrong. Since that was published, BRP began recommending the Rolo Laser alignment system and specs instead. IE those dimensions and the alignment procedure that went with them has been superseded.

[PMK]

Do you by chance know the range of toe change over the full suspension travel? And, is the Ackermann compensation correct or does it muck with the toe as well?

I never measured the toe change, bump steer over full travel of the suspension.

As for Akermann effect and associated changes, the Spyder uses a primitive design that may not optimize the Akermann and tire angles.

Considering the Spyder does not have true capability to adjust Camber, or Caster, and relies on toe setting only with a pinch of ride height as needed, Akermann changes would require redesigning the steering bellcrank and likely would never be optimized unless a wide steering rack were installed at the correct height or idler arms were added.

A vehicle that demonstrates bump steer in an amount such as the Spyder, will always struggle with finding alignment angles to be optimal at anything but straight ahead and laden. This demonstrates why those Spyders that run more toe in than others often have better cornering manners that involves chassis roll, while those with less toe in, will see better economy in straight line while sacrificing cornering performance, especially involving chassis roll.

All the best with it.

[DingerD]

As we change out the Crapendas, does anyone know what the proper torque setting is for the front lug nuts? Thanks all!

[ButterSmooth]

I never measured the toe change, bump steer over full travel of the suspension.

As for Akermann effect and associated changes, the Spyder uses a primitive design that may not optimize the Akermann and tire angles.

Considering the Spyder does not have true capability to adjust Camber, or Caster, and relies on toe setting only with a pinch of ride height as needed, Akermann changes would require redesigning the steering bellcrank and likely would never be optimized unless a wide steering rack were installed at the correct height or idler arms were added.

A vehicle that demonstrates bump steer in an amount such as the Spyder, will always struggle with finding alignment angles to be optimal at anything but straight ahead and laden. This demonstrates why those Spyders that run more toe in than others often have better cornering manners that involves chassis roll, while those with less toe in, will see better economy in straight line while sacrificing cornering performance, especially involving chassis roll.

All the best with it.

The toe settings seem to have been arrived at by experimental methods. Since a lot of folks have done the experimentation and confirmation of what works, there is no real reason to do a calculated confirmation of the settings as well. Thanks for the thoughtful response to a pedantic question.

[Possible]

As we change out the Crapendas, does anyone know what the proper torque setting is for the front lug nuts? Thanks all!

The service manual for Peggy's 2013 STS-SM5 shows 77 lb.ft. for the front wheels.

[PMK]

The toe settings seem to have been arrived at by experimental methods. Since a lot of folks have done the experimentation and confirmation of what works, there is no real reason to do a calculated confirmation of the settings as well. Thanks for the thoughtful response to a pedantic question.

Your welcome.

As for experimentation to determine settings, I doubt many owners have accomplished alignment changes on their own. Some have, but unlikely many. Most simply employ a dealer or alignment specialist to accomplish the task.

The unfortunate truth about front wheel alignment on a Spyder hinges around several factors. Rider or if two up rider(s) weight, ride height setting, spring rate, and even swaybar choice can influence best setup.

Regarding experimenting to obtain the settings, yes, this can be done, but requires an understanding of vehicle dynamics and the feedback the Spyder sends to the rider.

The other concerns, and why I made a few posts in this topic is simply clarification. Depending upon the method / equipment utilized, simply obtaining a "number" for the setting is in most cases meaningless, unless the same type tooling and method is used. Add to this, these specs shared, the reader must understand not only how to align, but also are the specs representing Total Toe or something else.

Again, all the best with how you proceed to align your Spyder. I would also not consider your questions pedantic, which I did need to research the definition. Safety is involved in understanding this topic, regardless of how primitive or inadequate from a performance standpoint the Spyder front suspension and steering may be.

[ButterSmooth]

Lots of things effect that. Load weight, spring rates to name two. We adjust to 3/4 to 1 1/4 toe in measured at 120" between targets. Which end of that range we shoot for depends on load and spring rate.

So that would be -.5°±.12°. BMW specifies that wheel alignment be done with the driver in his seat and 200# sandbag in the passenger seat, much like your "load and spring rate" adjustment range. I like it!

[redrazor]

Lots of things effect that. Load weight, spring rates to name two. We adjust to 3/4 to 1 1/4 toe in measured at 120" between targets. Which end of that range we shoot for depends on load and spring rate.

:shocked:wouldn't 3/4 inch of toe-in cause front tires to scuff outside edges pretty badly?? ..... and 1 1/4 inch toe-in would seem to slow you down and really scuff the tires.(??):yikes:

[PinkRosePetal]

:shocked:wouldn't 3/4 inch of toe-in cause front tires to scuff outside edges pretty badly?? ..... and 1 1/4 inch toe-in would seem to slow you down and really scuff the tires.(??):yikes: Yep, I agree. That's seriously wrong.

Using the wheel rim as the datum (not the tyre) 2.5 - 3mm toe in is a good starting point. That's less than 1/8" for you USofA folks.

[DingerD]

Perfect! Thanks for digging.

[Cobwebs]

:shocked:wouldn't 3/4 inch of toe-in cause front tires to scuff outside edges pretty badly?? ..... and 1 1/4 inch toe-in would seem to slow you down and really scuff the tires.(??):yikes:


Yep, I agree. That's seriously wrong.

Using the wheel rim as the datum (not the tyre) 2.5 - 3mm toe in is a good starting point. That's less than 1/8" for you USofA folks.

Divide those numbers by ten is how you arrive at the actual toe in. The laser targets are spaced out ten foot apart to give accuracy.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

:shocked:wouldn't 3/4 inch of toe-in cause front tires to scuff outside edges pretty badly?? ..... and 1 1/4 inch toe-in would seem to slow you down and really scuff the tires.(??):yikes:
Note that JC said 120" between targets. That would the toe-in over 120" which most likely is the targets spaced 60" in front and 60" behind the wheel center. That's about 0.6° for 1.25" toe-in.

[jcthorne]

deleted

[PinkRosePetal]

You did not read what I wrote. Toe in is set at 3/4 to 1 1/4 toe in MEASURED OVER A 120" TARGET DISTANCE.
That's not my quote but yep, I just clocked that, I obviously had my squint thinking cap on, apologies to you, JC.