My final Theory on Driveability issues after the recall (a little technical , sorry)

[widowmaker2011]

First everyone must understand what a purge valve is and what it does.

The evap purge valve makes possible for the stored fuel vapors in the evap canister to enter the manifold to be burned. Its normal state is open, it is switched closed by application of voltage by the ECM.



Along with the vapors, air that enters to take place of gone gasoline in the fuel tank is also allowed to enter the intake manifold.



A faulty or evap purge valve that is not programmed to operate at the right time does not provide closing action . This results in constant introduction of unmeasured air into the intake manifold through the charcoal canister and driveability issues are very likely to occur.

OK lesson over - read on---




Ok so this isn't a theory on who shot JFK but in our world this remapping of the ECM in conjunction with the steering recall sure is getting alot of attention...

So Lets take what we know as facts in some sort of order:

1) there was a recall to address certain unique steering issues under certain circumstances on the Spyders
2) Unrelated to this recall (and common-place way before the recall was even thought of) there had been a number of Spyder owners who had experienced a raw fuel odor at various times during the operation of our Spyders. While numerous guesses were made as to the root, the majority of these smells were traced back to the operation of the fuel evap cansiter. The vent which releases the fumes to the atmosphere (or draws in fresh air) is on the right side of the Spyder just inside and forward of your right knee. Some have had this evap canister replaced , with good results , some have had this replaced with the fumes returning shortly thereafter.
3) After the recall many Spyder owners have enjoyed very fluid and smooth steering :ohyea:
4) After the recall some spyders (ok more than some) have experienced driveability issues in relation to what has been found to be a lean condition at various RPM ranges, and has been most prevalant on Spyders with the BRP hindle exhaust or non-oem exhaust and air filters which enhance performance but make the SPyder run leaner than stock prior to the recall, only to make the Spyder too lean after the recall.
5) Some dealers and / or owners have taken matters into their own hands and plugged the evap purge line to the throttle body and the issue has been corrected, and a couple posts note that their dealers have been told on the phone by BRP to do this.



Ok so those are "facts".

Lets talk about the bulletin that the BRP dealer completes as part of the steering recall, and subsequent repair attempts:

1) During the recall , BRP also uses updates the ECM with a different fuel mapping program. This remap makes the Spyder run leaner (however we aren't exactly sure what they tweaked or how they arrived at the final mapping). Thus the driveability issues mentioned above that some have encountered.

a) some have returned their Spyders to stock and the Spyder runs perfect.
b) some have been luck enough to have a juice box fuel programmer and have been able to dial enough fuel into the system to get their powerband back to an acceptable range
c) some just have had no luck and their Spyder runs really bad and has an engine light on.
d) The thought of a defective purge valve has been the focus of some technicians diagnosis , however , for 50 Spyders to enter the shop and 50 spyders to leave the shop with defective purge valves is a stretch even Las vegas wouldn't take bets on.

OK , here comes the theory:

You are BRP, you have seen numerous issues with the gas smells , and many warranty claims replacing the evap canister . Your internal testing shows that perhaps the purge valve (which purges the evap canister) is not operating at the correct time and duration based upon the drive-cycle and a reprogram of the ecm will fix this. By reprogramming this you can "fix" the gas smell and also you reflash the ecm to improve fuel metering across the rpm range to accomodate this change .

This brings us to the oops. My theory is somewhere in that reflash , the combination of retiming the purge valve to help with the evap gas smell and the remapping of the fuel delivery clashes with what the ideal fuel/air ratio is for the spyders with the high flow exhaust and intakes. Perhaps the valve has been reprogrammed (through a timing adjustment for the voltage flow to it from the ecm) to stay open longer , sucking the fumes into the manifold......... but if the canister isn't full of fumes we will be sucking CLEAN 100% pure AIR......(For those of you in RioLinda ,thats spells LEAN) The stock bikes are also running lean but don't flow enough air through the restricted exhaust to exploit this issue.

Which brings us to the fix

My gut says BRP will re-issue a ecm update and get this right. (perhaps a stock reflash and one to be used with the hindle (insert your favorite aftermarket parts here). In the meantime you will hear of more people plugging the hose to help their driveability issues.


standard disclaimers apply , I could be way off base here , but I don't think I am.

[BeRight]

Thank you - excellent write-up..:clap: You might want to forward/email BRP, maybe by accident it would get to one of their engineers.

If one plugs the hole to solve bad running conditions are they still left with gas smell-fumes escaping?

[Firefly]

Very interesting theory -well thought out and explained--- Thanks! It makes pretty good sense--- especially considering the problem is inconsistent-- at least on my bike. I cannot always make it sputter--- then sometimes it does it often.

Now--- to throw a wrench into your theory------ I removed my canister and plugged my purge hose----- no difference in how it runs---- seemed to run fine-- but then a bit later it started sputtering.

I disconnected the battery once -- after I got home from the dealer doing the update--- didn't make a difference.

I have not disconnected the battery since I removed the canister--- because a battery disconnect once you have the BRP bags is a PITA. Going to be looking for a new place for that battery!

I'm running the Hindle, O2 mod, Fuel pressure mod @ 62psi, Race airflow system and cold-air intakes.

I didn't want to make too many changes all at once--- so I'll give it a week like it is-- and then increase the fuel pressure if things are still sputtering.

[NancysToy]

Excellent synopsis Widowmaker2011. I was one of the first to throw out the possibility that the purge valve may have entered into this problem. It seems we have no confirmation of this being included in the update, but it is plausible. On the other hand, it may also be merely a band-aid, and the purge valve itself may not be a culprit. Clamping off the hose can indeed make the mixture richer by cutting the extra air into the throttle body at some operating conditions. This could be during the exact same operating conditions for the purge valve that we had before. We should not jump to conclusions. Firefly's continued difficulties with the evap canister disconnected and purge valve plugged, seem to indicate that this problem is quite complex. I doubt there is a simple solution. It is also possible that the idle-air system is involved in some way, another solenoid operated, ECM controlled part of the fuel management system.

I see these issues involved, some of which you have summarized:

1. Not all Spyders run the same in regards to emissions, for some reason, so some have fumes from the canister and some don't.
2. Not all stock Spyders seem to run quite the same with regard to fuel mixture, as evidenced by widely varying fuel mileages. Climate and engine temp connection?
3. There is variability in the results of this update that depends to some degree on the modifications made to the Spyder.
4. There are also stock Spyders that have these problems, and modified Spyders that don't.
5. The purge system may either be causing, or complicating these issues.
6. Some type of fuel system remapping seems to have been included in the update, and possibly some purge valve reprogramming.

If BRP engineers don't come up with some leeway for our techs to do some fine tuning to suit each individual Spyder, they may have to come out with a variety of updates to un-do this mess. More complications. I suspect they will merely revise the recall update to eliminate any remapping and purge valve programming they have done, and give us just a steering update alone in the end. Of course my crystal ball is about as reliable as the weather these days. :D

[Lamonster]

I think you are on the right track and thanks for taking the time to post this.

Here's what I'm thinking is happening in all the different situations.

Stock Spyder Runs bad or runs real bad-
My guess is this is a purge valve issue. The easy thing to do is pinch off the hose to the purge valve and see. My guess is it will fix the problem (temporarily) on 99% of the stock Spyders that are having this problem. From there the dealer should be able to fix the problem.

Modified Spyder Runs bad or runs real bad-
If you are running a free flowing pipe and or free flowing air filter it is possible that you were on the edge of running too lean to start with. If the fuel map was modified, and I'm pretty sure it was, this may have put you over the edge. The only way to fix this would be to add a Juicebox or return your Spyder back to stock.
It is still possible that you have a purge valve issue too that is compounding the problem. You won't know till you do a plug reading and see. I would pinch off the valve once again and see if it runs any better.

Now guys like Firefly that have Kens race air kit where they are modifying fuel pressures to richen up the mixture are in a catagory unto themselfs. I would be contacting Ken and not BRP about this problem.

[BLACK WIDOW]

I think you are on the right track and thanks for taking the time to post this.

Here's what I'm thinking is happening in all the different situations.

Stock Spyder Runs bad or runs real bad-
My guess is this is a purge valve issue. The easy thing to do is pinch off the hose to the purge valve and see. My guess is it will fix the problem (temporarily) on 99% of the stock Spyders that are having this problem. From there the dealer should be able to fix the problem.

Modified Spyder Runs bad or runs real bad-
If you are running a free flowing pipe and or free flowing air filter it is possible that you were on the edge of running too lean to start with. If the fuel map was modified, and I'm pretty sure it was, this may have put you over the edge. The only way to fix this would be to add a Juicebox or return your Spyder back to stock.
It is still possible that you have a purge valve issue too that is compounding the problem. You won't know till you do a plug reading and see. I would pinch off the valve once again and see if it runs any better.

Now guys like Firefly that have Kens race air kit where they are modifying fuel pressures to richen up the mixture are in a catagory unto themselfs. I would be contacting Ken and not BRP about this problem.

I like the theories and they all sound pretty logical to me; Except when mine was messing up it showed signs of running to rich (low speed sputtering); not lean. I actually leaned out my JB settings to get it running better, and I think it runs better now than before.:dontknow:


Michael:doorag:

[Firefly]

I like the theories and they all sound pretty logical to me; Except when mine was messing up it showed signs of running to rich (low speed sputtering); not lean. I actually leaned out my JB settings to get it running better, and I think it runs better now than before.:dontknow:


Michael:doorag:

So it's your belief that low-speed sputtering is more likely a rich condition instead of a lean one?

[NancysToy]

I like the theories and they all sound pretty logical to me; Except when mine was messing up it showed signs of running to rich (low speed sputtering); not lean. I actually leaned out my JB settings to get it running better, and I think it runs better now than before.:dontknow:


Michael:doorag:
Still could be a purge valve relation. If you do have vapors in the evap canister, and the purge valve opens, those vapors go to the throttle body, enrichening the mixture. Purge valve opening too early (via programming) or sticking open can cause such a symptom. On a Spyder without vapors in the can, it would run lean due to the introduction of raw air into the throttle body. Still can be tested the same way. Dealer may or may not be able to help, depending on if it is programming change or faulty valve.

[BLACK WIDOW]

So it's your belief that low-speed sputtering is more likely a rich condition instead of a lean one?

My experience is that if a engine is getting more fuel than it can burn at any given time it will sputter. Remember the old cars that had manual chokes. If you over choked the engine they would sputter. Lean running engines will tend to surge more than sputter. IMHO.:chat:

[widowmaker2011]

Still could be a purge valve relation. If you do have vapors in the evap canister, and the purge valve opens, those vapors go to the throttle body, enrichening the mixture. Purge valve opening too early (via programming) or sticking open can cause such a symptom. On a Spyder without vapors in the can, it would run lean due to the introduction of raw air into the throttle body. Still can be tested the same way. Dealer may or may not be able to help, depending on if it is programming change or faulty valve.

Exactly.

[BLACK WIDOW]

FIREFLY---This may be a little off topic, but in one of your threads you were saying how hard it was to get to the battery with the BRP bags. (I totally agree). My question to you or anyone that knows (I PROBABLY SHOULD). Can you pull a main fuse to disconnect the battery from all the electronics on the Spyder; maybe the 40 amp one? If so it would make things a lot easier, when a battery disconnect is needed.:dontknow:

[BLACK WIDOW]

Still could be a purge valve relation. If you do have vapors in the evap canister, and the purge valve opens, those vapors go to the throttle body, enrichening the mixture. Purge valve opening too early (via programming) or sticking open can cause such a symptom. On a Spyder without vapors in the can, it would run lean due to the introduction of raw air into the throttle body. Still can be tested the same way. Dealer may or may not be able to help, depending on if it is programming change or faulty valve.

Scotty would you recommend blocking the purge line off then.:dontknow:

[kman]

Thanks a bunch for the explanation on the purge valve,it is more than i am getting from BRP.I love this site and my :spyder2:.I feel better now:bowdown:

[widowmaker2011]

Thank you - excellent write-up..:clap: You might want to forward/email BRP, maybe by accident it would get to one of their engineers.



If it was only that easy... (They read this and Spydertalk daily anyways so they have already seen it)
According to some at BRP , they have no knowledge of any running problems or any concerns after the recall, so good luck with that. We had a couple issues after the recall that our dealer had to end up training BRP on, and Carlos from BRP was going to call me back after a ruined road-trip that it caused... yeah I'm still waiting 2 weeks later :gaah:

Anyhow , Spyders are fine now after we figured out the fix but I wouldn't bet the farm on a quick fix from up north.

[spyderwoman]

Scotty would you recommend blocking the purge line off then.:dontknow:



so that is what that brp tech was trying to tell my dealer to do to my spyder. he said to block the hose to the throttle body but i bet he meant for us to block off the purge line! finally! my husband and i scratched our heads for hours trying to figure that one out!:shocked: dang if we do this you think they'll say its a modification that could void our warranty? heehee....even though they suggested it....

[spydee owner]

I have a stock exhaust and a friend has the hindle on his. He noticed his driveability issue first. My bike stutters at lower speeds in 1,2,3, gears and at constant speed. If I crack the throttle to accelerate it seems fine.
Your theory makes sense.

[NancysToy]

Scotty would you recommend blocking the purge line off then.:dontknow:
Only as a diagnostic test or a short-term solution. The root of the problem is much deeper than this, and IMO may involve several factors.

[BLACK WIDOW]

Only as a diagnostic test or a short-term solution. The root of the problem is much deeper than this, and IMO may involve several factors.

Actually mine seems to be running quite well now, and I have never had an issue with gasoline funes. Given the fact that I believe BRP is aware of some of these issues , I will probably wait them out; unless things take a turn for the worse.


Michael:doorag:

[Dragonrider]

I don't know what you expect - BRP is FRENCH (Canadian) after all...

I've done the canisterectomy and my Hindle equipped Spyder runs just fine, and has lost the gas smell, as the line now vents to the back of the bike.

I'm getting ready to take her in for the 600 mile service, but I'm going to skip the recall, for now. The steering I can deal with, the rest of the stuff that seems to follow, I don't want..

[Tom in NM]

Excellent synopsis Widowmaker2011.
I see these issues involved, some of which you have summarized:

1. Not all Spyders run the same in regards to emissions, for some reason, so some have fumes from the canister and some don't.
2. Not all stock Spyders seem to run quite the same with regard to fuel mixture, as evidenced by widely varying fuel mileages. Climate and engine temp connection?
3. There is variability in the results of this update that depends to some degree on the modifications made to the Spyder.
4. There are also stock Spyders that have these problems, and modified Spyders that don't.
5. The purge system may either be causing, or complicating these issues.
6. Some type of fuel system remapping seems to have been included in the update, and possibly some purge valve reprogramming.


. . . . as time goes by, other factors and combinations will probably become evident. I would add two more variables to your #2; Altitude (if not in climate) and Gasoline Ethanol Mix. These also effect your #3

And you never know if something completely overlooked like the weight (rider, passenger, cargo, accessories ) being carried on the Spyder contributes to or triggers some problem.

My Spyder has been great since the upgrade. Sunday, I felt the that hesitation at a steady speed some have mentioned for the first time. Nothing since.

Thanks to everyone, and especially Widowmaker2011, for posting your observations and thoughts.

Tom

[fred]

thank you for the explanations, theories & experiances, i will but these cards in my pocket... BRP is not saying much

in my case; BRP asked the dealer to pinch off(clamp) the hose.. when they did the hesitation stopped

Spyder is under warranty... will continue to push for resolution

yesterday i sent BRP an email... today i called the 800 number they responded like they had not heard of any issues;poppy****, i know others have written and called ; i was told all Spyder 800 numbers end at the same point and there are 4 people that man these phones. They are playing their cards very closely.

they noted my issues and asked me to contact my dealer... i have another appointment later in the week..

send email; call the 800 number and work thru your dealer.

Spyderwomen... i am surprised the dealer did not do this for you.. i would not do it myself if the Spyder is under warranty..BRP is really picky.

[BajaRon]

With the plugging of the evap hose giving some an instant fix (or at least an improvement) there is no doubt that the purge valve is definitely a culpret in some, if not many, of the drivablitiy issues.

At least this is an easy "Fix". And there is no reason this should affect any warranty as the evap system has nothing to do with engine (or any other component) longevity.

If a person eliminates the Purge Valve by blocking the hose, and still has the same symtoms with no change, then you've at least eliminated this possiblity.

When you change several things at the same time it makes it more difficult to nail down the problem. But it looks like we are whittling away at it.

[NautiBrit]

[quote=Dragonrider;133217]I don't know what you expect - BRP is FRENCH (Canadian) after all...


It's regretable that you choose to inject racism into an intelligent discussion on a problem that many owners are facing.

[bone crusher]

[quote=Dragonrider;133217]I don't know what you expect - BRP is FRENCH (Canadian) after all...


It's regretable that you choose to inject racism into an intelligent discussion on a problem that many owners are facing.

I hardly call that racism...where is race mentioned? 'French' is a nationality and Canadian French tends to refer to a region. I think he was joking around when he said that... I have always found that the only true racists are the people who think race first whenever anything, anywhere happens...

[Smylinacha]

[quote=NautiBrit;133340]

I hardly call that racism...where is race mentioned? 'French' is a nationality and Canadian French tends to refer to a region. I think he was joking around when he said that... I have always found that the only true racists are the people who think race first whenever anything, anywhere happens...

:2thumbs::agree:

[NautiBrit]

[quote=NautiBrit;133340]

I hardly call that racism...where is race mentioned? 'French' is a nationality and Canadian French tends to refer to a region. I think he was joking around when he said that... I have always found that the only true racists are the people who think race first whenever anything, anywhere happens...


I guess that I just don't see your logic. Had he said African (American) - African is a nationality and America tends to refer to a region, I would assume that your response would have been totally different. Joking or not, it's an unnecessary insult.

As for your "true racist" comment, I feel it's appropriate to bring up a point when an offhanded remark is designed to denigrate and insult any group of people.

I appreciate your comments, but respectfully disagree.

[Motza]

STOP!!! Get back to real issue on this post! :lecturef_smilie:

[bone crusher]

[quote=bone crusher;133344]


I guess that I just don't see your logic. Had he said African (American) - African is a nationality and America tends to refer to a region, I would assume that your response would have been totally different. Joking or not, it's an unnecessary insult.

As for your "true racist" comment, I feel it's appropriate to bring up a point when an offhanded remark is designed to denigrate and insult any group of people.

I appreciate your comments, but respectfully disagree.

'African Americans' designate a race. 'French Canadians' refer to those who speak French...there is no correlation between the two and his comment does not imply any racial undertone. Where are you getting this guilt from?

You are assuming that he is trying to denigrate who? Those people who live in Canadian areas where they speak French? Who are they...only one type of person? There are probably several races of people who live there anyway...

Again, if you look for a racial problem, even when one doesn't exist, I guess you can find it or make it up.

French and English speaking Canadians historically are white, so they are the same race anyway!

I certainly hope we're not so PC on everything that a light-hearted joke or comment is construed as being negative to one group of another. If that is the case, nobody will be able to say anything about anyone!

[bone crusher]

JUST STOP!!! take it from me it's not worth the discussion....get back to real issue on this post! :lecturef_smilie:

Didn't see your post until after I replied again. I'm done with this exchange...just don't like people creating an issue when one doesn't exist...something about mountains and mole-hills?? Sorry folks...

[3wheeldemon]

I checked this thread this evening and it was one of the most educational and intellectually challenging technical debates ever. Came back tonight salivating in anticipation of how much more I was going to learn just to find all this racist BS. Come on guys! :lecturef_smilie:

3WD

[Dudley]

From NautiBrit:
It's regretable that you choose to inject racism into an intelligent discussion on a problem that many owners are facing.[/quote]



It's even more regretable that you, who are probably not even French, much less Canadian, has raised the race issue. I am French Canadian, decendents from Nova Scotia to Louisiana Cajun and find no issue in what was said, except from you.

[RodO]

I don't know what you expect - BRP is FRENCH (Canadian) after all...

I've done the canisterectomy and my Hindle equipped Spyder runs just fine, and has lost the gas smell, as the line now vents to the back of the bike.

I'm getting ready to take her in for the 600 mile service, but I'm going to skip the recall, for now. The steering I can deal with, the rest of the stuff that seems to follow, I don't want..

As a Canadian of French Canadian heritage, I'm pretty proud of the Spyder's heritage. But I've never thought of it as being French. One of the few instances where it does creep in is in the BRP online parts catalog where section 9 Utilities is really the Tools page. "Outiles" is the French word for tools, so I figure that got lost in translation somewhere.

Also, French Canadians never refer to themselves as French (they're from France) but, like Afro Americans, we'll usually say we're Franco-something, depending on what part of Canada that you're from. Like French grammar, there is always an exception to the rule, and in Canada that would be Québec. Many Québécois don't even consider themselves Canadian and think of themselves as a distinct nation. But they (we) do make a great ryde!

And in the words of a Franco American (ie Louisiana), "Laisser les bons temps roulez!".

Salut,
Rod.

[Firefly]

Sooooo

Back to the issue at hand.....

I'm a big fan of the 'doing one fix at a time' technique, which is why I did the battery disconnect 1st---- didn't make a difference----- then removed the canister and plugged the purge line---- been a few days and still have the sputter here and there.

Strange thing is it doesn't happen all the time-- and I cannot always replicate it.

Not sure what to try next---- more or less fuel pressure--- or higher octane gas--- but considering it's not knocking--- I don't think it's the octane.

[jwfranklin]

Sooooo

Back to the issue at hand.....

I'm a big fan of the 'doing one fix at a time' technique, which is why I did the battery disconnect 1st---- didn't make a difference----- then removed the canister and plugged the purge line---- been a few days and still have the sputter here and there.

Strange thing is it doesn't happen all the time-- and I cannot always replicate it.

Not sure what to try next---- more or less fuel pressure--- or higher octane gas--- but considering it's not knocking--- I don't think it's the octane.

I had tried 93 octane before the update and mine seemed to run worst, ran fine on 87. After the update thought I would try it again. It doesn't run any better and if anything worse. Going to take mine back to dealer later this morning, and have them call BRP and give them my vin, like BRP told me to.

Wayne

[widowmaker2011]

Sooooo

Back to the issue at hand.....

I'm a big fan of the 'doing one fix at a time' technique, which is why I did the battery disconnect 1st---- didn't make a difference----- then removed the canister and plugged the purge line---- been a few days and still have the sputter here and there.

Strange thing is it doesn't happen all the time-- and I cannot always replicate it.

Not sure what to try next---- more or less fuel pressure--- or higher octane gas--- but considering it's not knocking--- I don't think it's the octane.

Pull a sparkplug and either post a pic of it or tell us what color it is. :popcorn:

[NancysToy]

Sooooo

Back to the issue at hand.....

I'm a big fan of the 'doing one fix at a time' technique, which is why I did the battery disconnect 1st---- didn't make a difference----- then removed the canister and plugged the purge line---- been a few days and still have the sputter here and there.

Strange thing is it doesn't happen all the time-- and I cannot always replicate it.

Not sure what to try next---- more or less fuel pressure--- or higher octane gas--- but considering it's not knocking--- I don't think it's the octane.
That could be a result of weather, or varying fuel supplies. Like I said...complex issue!

[jwfranklin]

I had tried 93 octane before the update and mine seemed to run worst, ran fine on 87. After the update thought I would try it again. It doesn't run any better and if anything worse. Going to take mine back to dealer later this morning, and have them call BRP and give them my vin, like BRP told me to.

Wayne


Just got back from my dealer, They called BRP and gave them my vin #, as I was told to have them do. He was told there was nothing in the DPS update that would effect the way it runs, and I need to take the Hindle off and put the stock muffler back on to make it run better. I asked the service mgr why do they sell them then. He had no answer. He was told they were no other updates but for the DPS. Don't know if I beleive that or not. My question for them was why did BRP tell me to bring it to them, if they knew they was nothing they could do. I beleive BRP customer service stinks. I guess they got all the customers they need

[bone crusher]

I'm getting my update done on Saturday. This is what I'm going to do:

1. Leave the hindle on...the computer is mapped for it
2. Turn off the JB but leave it attached

3. When the update is completed...disconnect the battery for 15-30 minutes...then turn on the bike and idle for 15 minutes...turn off the bike...let it rest for a few, then turn it on and go.

I don't expect there to be any problems. My dealership has done several updates now without a hitch...no problems. I don't know why so many here have issues but maybe the computer needs to be treated more like a Windows system vs. an Apple?

[Lamonster]

I'm getting my update done on Saturday. This is what I'm going to do:

1. Leave the hindle on...the computer is mapped for it
2. Turn off the JB but leave it attached

3. When the update is completed...disconnect the battery for 15-30 minutes...then turn on the bike and idle for 15 minutes...turn off the bike...let it rest for a few, then turn it on and go.

I don't expect there to be any problems. My dealership has done several updates now without a hitch...no problems. I don't know why so many here have issues but maybe the computer needs to be treated more like a Windows system vs. an Apple?

Or you could do what Ron and I did with the same setup as you have and that's do nothing. Both of ours runs great.:doorag:

Disconnecting the battery does nothing from what I'm told.

[dabreitbach]

WOW. Who did they get to do this program patch? Did they get some intern to do this Or is there just so much slop in these components that the patch has such radically differnt results on these bike. Did they use such cheap components that they won't hold to specs and are all over the map as to how they react to programing? This isn't rocket science. Far more complex progaming and components are used on cars these days and they don't have a 40% failure rate.
Mine ran fine until the patch and now pops and spits and bachfires. Stock filter and pipe. Come on BRP. Get this fixed RIGHT!!!!!!!:lecturef_smilie::gaah:

[Some Guy]

Got mine updated yesterday. I have the Micron and the No Magic Green filter. I've only put 40 miles on it so far, but almost all the decel popping, that started when I got the Micron, is gone. :thumbup: The steering feels different, but I can't explain how - no better, no worse. :D

I'm going to ride more before I vote on the poll because I know some people didn't have problems until after 300 or so miles.

[bone crusher]

Or you could do what Ron and I did with the same setup as you have and that's do nothing. Both of ours runs great.:doorag:

Disconnecting the battery does nothing from what I'm told.

That's what I'm hoping for...(holding breath)...

[Dudley]

We got back from our trip last Wednesday. The Spyder has been in it's cave since then. Yesterday we rode it to the dealer for an oil filter. It got as high as 97F ambient. Rode it with 5 bars in slow traffic in El Cajon. I couldn't get that darn Spyder to do anything but purr. Ran like a champ...go figure. It ran that way after the update done in Worthington, MN until I filled up from a gas pump that said that gasoline contained ethanol. We were still about 3000 miles from home so the running was off and on bad. Now that we are back to using California gas, will it run well again? So, my mechanically challenged mind asks, "Could the ethanol be giving the problems some of us are having?"

[BajaRon]

It got as high as 97F ambient. Rode it with 5 bars in slow traffic in El Cajon.

Ah...El Cajon...Many fond memories there. We used to ride the clover leaf interchange at I-8 and I-67 for fast time.

We would stay on the on/off ramps from each staying on the merge lane between ramps. We would go faster and faster trying to improve our lap times. I don't remember what the record lap time was or even who held it at the end. But it sure was a blast.

We would do it late at night. In those days the traffic was not as bad as it is now.

Surprising how tiring it was go go all out for just 4 or 5 laps.

Glad to hear your Spyder is feeling better. I think you must mean 197F not 97F.

[Smylinacha]

Just got back from my dealer, They called BRP and gave them my vin #, as I was told to have them do. He was told their was nothing in the DPS update that would effect the way it runs, and I need to take the Hindle off and put the stock muffler back on to make it run better. I asked the service mgr why do they sell them then. He had no answer. He was told they were no other updates but for the DPS. Don't know if I beleive that or not. My question for them was why did BRP tell me to bring it to them, if they knew they was nothing they could do. I beleive BRP customer service stinks. I guess they got all the customers they need

I wouldn't freakin believe them! They want us to think it's some sort of coincidence? I think Not:sour:. So all the sudden we have our steering issues done and now many :spyder:run like cr@p RIGHT AFTER THE UPDATE?! Give me a break! That recall did more than fix the steering. And then tell Spyder owners to swap back to stock because it runs better? So why do they sell the Hindle then? You are right - they are lying or just haven't figured it out yet and don't wanna say much so they don't get a lawsuit on their hands.

[Smylinacha]

I'm getting my update done on Saturday. This is what I'm going to do:

1. Leave the hindle on...the computer is mapped for it
2. Turn off the JB but leave it attached

3. When the update is completed...disconnect the battery for 15-30 minutes...then turn on the bike and idle for 15 minutes...turn off the bike...let it rest for a few, then turn it on and go.

I don't expect there to be any problems. My dealership has done several updates now without a hitch...no problems. I don't know why so many here have issues but maybe the computer needs to be treated more like a Windows system vs. an Apple?

:lecturef_smilie::gaah::gaah::gaah: DON'T DO IT! Why take the chance of it running like cr@p? I was lucky, my dealer either knew what they were doing or it was the luck of the draw and I got my :spyder:back unscathed after the update but so many of us here are now having problems.

[Smylinacha]

We got back from our trip last Wednesday. The Spyder has been in it's cave since then. Yesterday we rode it to the dealer for an oil filter. It got as high as 97F ambient. Rode it with 5 bars in slow traffic in El Cajon. I couldn't get that darn Spyder to do anything but purr. Ran like a champ...go figure. It ran that way after the update done in Worthington, MN until I filled up from a gas pump that said that gasoline contained ethanol. We were still about 3000 miles from home so the running was off and on bad. Now that we are back to using California gas, will it run well again? So, my mechanically challenged mind asks, "Could the ethanol be giving the problems some of us are having?"

:popcorn:

[bone crusher]

:lecturef_smilie::gaah::gaah::gaah: DON'T DO IT! Why take the chance of it running like cr@p? I was lucky, my dealer either knew what they were doing or it was the luck of the draw and I got my :spyder:back unscathed after the update but so many of us here are now having problems.

I do have a lot of faith in my dealership...they have done a good job with everything so far...I have confidence that all will be fine. They have done several without incidence...smaller dealership, family owned...know them all now...very honest and helpful...from what I hear on this board, I wish all dealerships were like mine!

I'm also getting the 3" NMN/ESI risers put on...can't wait!!!!!

[BeRight]

I do have a lot of faith in my dealership...they have done a good job with everything so far...I have confidence that all will be fine. They have done several without incidence...smaller dealership, family owned...know them all now...very honest and helpful...from what I hear on this board, I wish all dealerships were like mine!

I'm also getting the 3" NMN/ESI risers put on...can't wait!!!!!


Best of luck - let me know how it goes. They probably know to but it might not hurt to ask if they reset the TPS (throttle position sensor) (I think BRP calls it the throttle stop sensor)and the GPS (Gear Position Sensor) with the PC after the recall software is loaded.

[Spanky]

Hey All,
I don't want to rain on anyone's day here but pinching off the evap canister hose is considered tampering with smog controls violating EPA laws. I know if any shops were doing this in Taxifornia and if they were caught, they would face heavy fines.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that BRP would advise doing this as a correction.

I'm far from being the smog police but I thought someone should point that out.

I have not done the update and my wife doesn't want to ride it until it's done but I won't do it until there is a resolution to the performance issues.

So I guess I just leave a $16,000.00 vehicle parked in my garage. If I wanted to just look at it then I could have saved my money and got a free poster.

I hope they do something soon.:gaah:

[Lamonster]

Hey All,
I don't want to rain on anyone's day here but pinching off the evap canister hose is considered tampering with smog controls violating EPA laws. I know if any shops were doing this in Taxifornia and if they were caught, they would face heavy fines.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that BRP would advise doing this as a correction.

I'm far from being the smog police but I thought someone should point that out.


BRP has never said to do this as a fix nor will you find any post on here that says that, it's only to help locate the problem. If pinching off the valve fixes the surging then they know where to start looking for a permanent fix.

[Smylinacha]

I do have a lot of faith in my dealership...they have done a good job with everything so far...I have confidence that all will be fine. They have done several without incidence...smaller dealership, family owned...know them all now...very honest and helpful...from what I hear on this board, I wish all dealerships were like mine!

I'm also getting the 3" NMN/ESI risers put on...can't wait!!!!!

You are going to LOVE those risers! No more neck pain for me with them! Not one bit! Although now my right hand is falling asleep again like it used to on the Harley. But I'll deal with anything just to not have neck pain anymore.

[bone crusher]

Best of luck - let me know how it goes. They probably know to but it might not hurt to ask if they reset the TPS (throttle position sensor) (I think BRP calls it the throttle stop sensor)and the GPS (Gear Position Sensor) with the PC after the recall software is loaded.

Will do...we'll have to ride sometime...get the few MD spyderlovers together and take a ride up to PA or something...

[Spanky]

BRP has never said to do this as a fix nor will you find any post on here that says that, it's only to help locate the problem. If pinching off the valve fixes the surging then they know where to start looking for a permanent fix.

I agree with that and it seems a lot like in the days of old when people would buy a "test only" pipe to "test" their catalytic converter.:D

I wasn't trying to rabble rouse but as everything people post about fixes I take it as rumor until I see a BRP logo on a document.

I must have misinterpreted this.....

so that is what that brp tech was trying to tell my dealer to do to my spyder. he said to block the hose to the throttle body but i bet he meant for us to block off the purge line! finally! my husband and i scratched our heads for hours trying to figure that one out!:shocked: dang if we do this you think they'll say its a modification that could void our warranty? heehee....even though they suggested it....

[BajaRon]

Hey All,
I don't want to rain on anyone's day here but pinching off the evap canister hose is considered tampering with smog controls violating EPA laws. I know if any shops were doing this in Taxifornia and if they were caught, they would face heavy fines.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that BRP would advise doing this as a correction.

I'm far from being the smog police but I thought someone should point that out.



A shop (even in Regula-fronia) can disable a smog component for troubleshooting purposes. That is where the exhaust "Test Pipe" came from. It "TEMPORARILY" replaces the catalitc conver to diagnose a problem.

All legal when done as prescribed.

Now, some ruthless, loose cannons with no regard for man nor beast may install something to circumvent the all knowing EPA regulations or even disable a life saving smog component with the deliberate, wanton intention of getting better fuel mileage, better performance, longer engine life and saving money.

But then there is no understanding what these poor, demented people are thinking.... I certainly would do NO SUCH THING! :D

[Arch]

I checked this thread this evening and it was one of the most educational and intellectually challenging technical debates ever. Came back tonight salivating in anticipation of how much more I was going to learn just to find all this racist BS. Come on guys! :lecturef_smilie:

3WD

:agree:

[BajaRon]

3wheeldemon[/b] http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=133400#post133400)
I checked this thread this evening and it was one of the most educational and intellectually challenging technical debates ever. Came back tonight salivating in anticipation of how much more I was going to learn just to find all this racist BS. Come on guys! :lecturef_smilie:

:agree:
Ok, a total of 1 (Ahhh....) unfortunate post and a few comments on that single post. Just bump past it like a bad spot on your favorite vinyl LP and enjoy the good stuff. :ohyea:

[Firefly]

catalytic converter--- we don't need no stinkin' catalytic converter!

[BajaRon]

catalytic converter--- we don't need no stinkin' catalytic converter!

:agree: But you didn't hear me say that!

[Pilo]

I don't know what you expect - BRP is FRENCH (Canadian) after all...

I've done the canisterectomy and my Hindle equipped Spyder runs just fine, and has lost the gas smell, as the line now vents to the back of the bike.

I'm getting ready to take her in for the 600 mile service, but I'm going to skip the recall, for now. The steering I can deal with, the rest of the stuff that seems to follow, I don't want..

Hey Dragon:

I also have a brand new Hindle equipped SE5 with less than 450 miles on it. I bought it in the USA but moved abroad and had to ship it. No dealership here, so I am on my own.

I extended the evap can vent hose up to the rear axle to get away from the fumes, but I can still smell them when I am at a stand still with the wind blowing forward, or when I get home and park it in the garage. It usually pukes a couple of gasoline drops on the floor.

Some forum members say that the canister is saturated, thus the gas drops. I think it might be that and / or condensation of the fumes due to the lenght of the hose extension (+/- 6').

I am seriously thinking about doing the canisterectomy on my SE5, but wonder if that will really get rid of the fumes' smell and the gas condensation.

Might even think of making an upwards loop in the hose extension where the can used to be, to make sure that no liquid sloshed from the tank will pass on to the bak of the Spyder.

Your 2 cents are appreciated, as well as any information on the behaviour of your ride after the canisterectomy.

Cheers...

[Firefly]

My gas smell is 100% gone since removing the evap can. I park inside at home and at work--- and used to be able to smell it at work--- but no longer! :2thumbs:

[BajaRon]

My gas smell is 100% gone since removing the evap can. I park inside at home and at work--- and used to be able to smell it at work--- but no longer! :2thumbs:

OH NO!!! :yikes::yikes:

Trees will DIE!
Birds will fall from the sky!
Fish will turn belly up!
Whales will sink to the bottom of the ocean!
Creaping Critters will crawl no more!
Even the Cooner's may collapse!

Uh....sounds like a great idea to me! Glad it worked out!:D

[Spanky]

Now, some ruthless, loose cannons with no regard for man nor beast may install something to circumvent the all knowing EPA regulations or even disable a life saving smog component with the deliberate, wanton intention of getting better fuel mileage, better performance, longer engine life and saving money.

But then there is no understanding what these poor, demented people are thinking.... I certainly would do NO SUCH THING! :D

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: