Brighter taillights, or Why is this so difficult?

[whodat]

Let me start off by saying this is the first mod I've done to the bike that the end result isn't really worth the effort put into it. So take it for what it's worth. Also this post will go through at least three iterations before I figured out what I wanted and did the final installation.


Comparison of LED (left) to regular bulb (right)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49986713072_b505b094e0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ja9Yhy)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ja9Yhy) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Ok, so installing the LED bulbs led to the hyper flash. I tried the computer reset thing with the hazard light switch but either I kept doing it wrong or it doesn't work on the 2019. So I had to install a resistor across the brake/turn wire and ground. I had bought a pair of 50w 6ohm resistors with the lights for this purpose. Technically they work great. Anyway, here was my first iteration:

Plug and play harness with resistor:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49985949973_7c9fd699a8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ja64rF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ja64rF) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

And after Tessa tape

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49985949993_cffbcff36e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ja64s2)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ja64s2) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Simple like pie, insert the harness inline between the bike and the taillight bulb harness

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49986715622_fecf7780bd_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ja9Z3w)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ja9Z3w) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

It worked great. Until it melted the plastic it was on. I tested it by ratchet strapping the brake pedal down and after about 10 minutes it was nearly 300*f. Way too hot.

So I moved the resistors out of the bike, and used some black screw-style hose clamps to hold them against the bottom of the frame rails. It worked and I left it that way for nearly two days before I hated it. Inelegant and amateurish looking. Had to go. So I started by taking the tail of the bike apart and started pondering. Ended up cutting my harnesses apart and rebuilding them with a 2 conductor connector in a t-harness. I then desoldered the wires from the resistors (I tried a bunch of different size resistors and only the original ones worked) and soldered some 12g wire to them. 12g is massive overkill, but it was the only wire I had with silicone insulation and I wanted a lot of heat resistance. I ended up putting the resistors under the front seat, using thermal epoxy to bond them. The zip ties are just to hold it while that cures. This essentially makes the whole frame a part of the heat sink for these.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50005246456_59e81d5f09_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXBE)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXBE) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

I also made a total newbie mistake. I hadn't built the other harness yet so I just reversed the connectors on that side to match. Very much swearing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50005246646_5ae570711c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXEW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXEW) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Here's the final look under the rear seat.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50005246691_5df4e94312_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXFH)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jbMXFH) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

And here's the final verdict. This is with the brake on.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50004722848_b1f1bf1eda_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jbKgXW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jbKgXW) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

I did a lot of testing and revising in this one. Once the resistors were bonded to the frame, I ratcheted the brake lever on for 25 minutes, and checked temperature throughout. Within about 5 minutes they got to 150*, and very slowly rose to 200* by the end of the test. Well within acceptable limits, and not even hot enough to melt the zip ties if I left them on. Silicone wire insulation is good for almost 400*f and there's nothing else near them. I should also point out that the resistors only get power when the brake or turn signal is on, and only when the bulb is lit so turn signals it only gets half as hot max. I built it for worst case scenario, traffic jam on a 90* day, brakes on for a long time. Once again, I'm sure there's easier ways to do this and I'll be exploring those, as I'm also looking to redo the t-harnesses to add connectors to put lights on my bags and trunk in the future.

[larryd]

whodat, You do very nice electrical work...hopefully there's an easier way...larryd

[YIRYDE]

Whodat, you have done some very creative mods to your Spyder. :2thumbs:

[whodat]

Thanks! I try, but I’m a total hack compared to one of my sons. I told him what I was trying and what I had, and he pretty much called me an idiot. Then he had the nerve to prove it, with math and everything. He is lots smarter than me though so no hard feelings. So I’m a verified idiot. Stubborn though.
I should have mentioned, these are the bulbs I used. https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-and-subminiature-bulbs/1157-led-boat-and-rv-light-bulb-dual-function-28-smd-led-tower-bay15d-retrofit-675-lumens/2400/12749/ Yes there's lots of supposedly brighter bulbs out there, but I tend to trust this store's numbers much more than amazon sellers claiming similar bulbs with 2800 lumens. I also put an 1156 in white from the same line in the license plate light. The reverse bulb is an H21W on my bike, and the OEM light puts out more lumens than any of the reputable LED replacements so it stays.

[Haze]

Very nice work.
Really appreciate the write up.

[troop]

Thanks for the info. I'm going to order up a pair of red 1157 halogen bulbs for the brake lights in hope getting a deeper, redder light. Also, will try a white 1156 LED for the license plate light. I was pondering that before I saw this.

[whodat]

It's not recommended to put red halogens behind red lenses. Red LED emits only red, so it doesn't waste any on the other colors that then get filtered out by the red lens. Putting in a red halogen, the red tint on the bulb will filter out everything but red then the lenses do the same thing. But hey, bulbs are cheap, give it a shot and let us know how it goes! I have one last set of resistors and a different set of bulbs arriving today to try so I can do a direct comparison. It's all about figuring out what works.

[troop]

Yeah .. I've read a lot about this and see conflicting answers. The most common/prevalent is that red/red will give up a little brightness for a deeper/more intense red. I also looked at multiple videos, and red/red is a more intense red light. WTH :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHr4Ajg9J6s

[whodat]

The way I read it explained, imagine wearing sunglasses. Then put on another pair of sunglasses. No matter what you do it's gonna get dimmer. Might be a different color, but dimmer nonetheless. But like I said, try it and let us know.

[troop]

Just like .. THAT .. a light bulb went off in my head :) I remember years back using a 1157 type bulb that emitted a brighter brake light. Hit google, and yup, it came back to me with a 2357 clear bulb. Same light output in running light, but a bit brighter in brake lighting. Downside is about 200 hours life expectancy. Local Wally World has them for $4/pair. I'll be getting a pair today :)

[whodat]

Well amazon sent the wrong part so the further experiments have to wait.
Edit: But in the interest of experimenting, I bought a set of $8 taillight bulbs that don't have any particular advertising or claim to fame, but seem to use good chips. The other pair are about $20, but have a lot of chips that are supposed to be bright individually. We'll see.

[Rattlebars]

whodat, I usually love your posts, but your "test" was a bit extreme. 10 and 25 minutes constant? When would you ever have the brake light on for that long? Even in worst case scenario such as a long traffic jam.... one would use the e-brake and let off the brake. Those resistors cool off about as fast as they heat up. Having metal to metal contact is a good idea. One can achieve the same result with ceramic resistors wire wound.

If you really want to add light to your brake, these lights are the bomb. "click: to see Feniex T3 Perimeter Mount LED (Red) (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XFMXGX8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

They have the effect of making people back off at traffic lights. :yikes:

Details: "click: to see MY SPYDER PAGE (http://www.rattlebars.com/spyder/spyder.html)

Oh, and don't you just love the CANBUS? :mad:

[whodat]

I agree it was extreme, but I never test to minimum. I've been at stoplights for 10 minutes, I've been in stop and go traffic for a long time, and I've been in an hours long traffic jam before. I figure test to at least 200% of expected use for everything. Hence why I built my trunk mount to support my weight. No kill like overkill. Also these are ceramic wire wound, they just have a metal shell for heat dissipation purposes.
I'll look at those lights, they seem pretty nice albeit pricey for me needing at least four. I wish they specc'd what LED they used, the manufacturer website states they pull .75 amps at 12v for 9w, so hopefully three 3w LEDs. Once again with inconsistent specs, another of their lights says it uses .75a also but uses 6 or 12 4w cree chips. Why even the manufacturer can't get their own documentation correct escapes me.
LEDs average 60 lumens per watt (on average) so that's a nice 540 lumens per fixture.

[honsfun]

i have added Feniex T3 Perimeter Mount or Whelan lights to my cycles. Very bright and easy to install and program. I also remember lining the interior of the oem light fixtures with self adhesive aluminium tape which makes the light brighter

[Rattlebars]

I agree it was extreme, but I never test to minimum. I've been at stoplights for 10 minutes, I've been in stop and go traffic for a long time, and I've been in an hours long traffic jam before. I figure test to at least 200% of expected use for everything. Hence why I built my trunk mount to support my weight. No kill like overkill. Also these are ceramic wire wound, they just have a metal shell for heat dissipation purposes.
I'll look at those lights, they seem pretty nice albeit pricey for me needing at least four. I wish they specc'd what LED they used, the manufacturer website states they pull .75 amps at 12v for 9w, so hopefully three 3w LEDs. Once again with inconsistent specs, another of their lights says it uses .75a also but uses 6 or 12 4w cree chips. Why even the manufacturer can't get their own documentation correct escapes me.
LEDs average 60 lumens per watt (on average) so that's a nice 540 lumens per fixture.

Not sure you can tie them into just your brake. Wiring is odd with the flasher and brake using the same bulbs. At the risk of getting scolded, I'm posting the video of one 3 element light, which, for the video needed to have a layer of blue masking tape over it or it would wash out everything else in the array. As for the CANBUS. I was able to defeat its behaviour using computer relays inline and sourcing the 12V from the user circuit through the relay input output. Note that I have a separate flasher to flash the Finiex. If you expect to use the steady on mode, it falls off to about 60% brightness after 15 seconds. It does NOT have a full power steady on.

http://www.rattlebars.com/spyder/CANbuster.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehohYEFJWUk

[whodat]

Nice setup! If that's how bright the single one was under tape I'll definitely add that to the list of things to try. Oh yeah, as for wiring them into the brake light. If I have just one I'll have to run power from both sides to it through diodes. Don't think they'll work for my main purpose though since they don't have separate running light/brake light functionality.

Ok, so I think this will wrap up the testing of the on-bike taillights. I tried some 8ohm resistors instead of the 6ohm, no go. They don't draw enough current to trick the computer. So, if you're going to do this get some 6 ohm 50w or 100w resistors. I'd recommend the 100w ones just because overkill, but it all depends on where you plan to mount them.

I have three different bulbs to test, an $8 set from amazon,https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y1S3MGJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 a $16 set from superbrightLEDs https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-and-subminiature-bulbs/1157-led-boat-and-rv-light-bulb-dual-function-28-smd-led-tower-bay15d-retrofit-675-lumens/2400/12749/ and a $17 set from amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076YVS361/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here are the contenders

Left to right is the superbrightleds, the $8, and the other one from amazon that advertised 2800 lumens.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50015635618_b93a87e57c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHcX9)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHcX9) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

And the tops. The one on the right has a handful of chips under a focusing lens.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016164561_7a37e92726_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcKVbR)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcKVbR) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Running light, in the same order

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016424712_f8f2db796c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfwd)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfwd) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016424512_c1a838240a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfsL)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfsL) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016424772_0fbc589953_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfxf)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfxf) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Brake light in the same order

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016424777_8a714e7a63_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfxk)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfxk) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016424737_f2db742d8f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfwD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMfwD) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50015635473_534be3ec7c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHcUD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHcUD) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

All pictures were taken from the same location with the ipad's autofocus and autoexposure turned off so they're as directly comparable as I can make them. Conclusions are that the $8 one is crap. The other two are pretty comparable, which is odd since the amazon one has more chips, is better built, and should by all means put out a whole lot more light. From measurement and eyeball, the chips used are the same on all three bulbs, so the difference must come down to the driver circuitry inside. More observations are that the amazon bulb has it's lights clustered in 4 groups where the SBLed one is much more spread out and is six sided. The cheapie is out of the running so now it's time to see what they look like in the bike.

The SBLed is installed on the left, the amazon bulb is on the right.

Running light

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016194946_8c211a9ae3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcL5dJ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcL5dJ) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016454117_9b143d4258_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpgc)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpgc) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016453767_a1f1d8e149_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpaa)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpaa) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr

Brake light

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50015664533_fb50facd2d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHmxF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHmxF) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50016454472_fa0d7e750a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpnj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcMpnj) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50015664553_4c91fc1bc5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHmy2)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2jcHmy2) by Uncle Grr! (https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclegrr/), on Flickr


Once again all pictures taken on a stand with the exposure and focus locked so they're as comparable as possible. No clear winner, they both look so close as to be indistinguishable. There were differences that the camera just doesn't have the ability to show but none that really jumped out as saying this or that was better. I was suprised that they were so close, I was surprised that the projector lens on the one didn't make a huge difference, I was surprised that the 6 sided one didn't spread the light out significantly more evenly. Conclusion: they're both good. I put the SBLed ones back in for no particular reason, and the others went in the box of spare bulbs. Probably won't ever use the cheapies, but the other ones will find a home in some motorcycle or another.

[Rattlebars]

Nice setup! If that's how bright the single one was under tape I'll definitely add that to the list of things to try. Oh yeah, as for wiring them into the brake light. If I have just one I'll have to run power from both sides to it through diodes. Don't think they'll work for my main purpose though since they don't have separate running light/brake light functionality.


Well, I use them just as supplemental extra brake lights. It's kinda like the CHMSL (Center High Mounted Stop Light) on your cars & trucks. Dark until the brake is applied. Not the main attraction. Only lights with the brake. If you use diodes you will have it lighting up with both signals and the Brake. Get the +12v brake circuit at the white wire in front the the flasher unit. You can also add a flasher to that light. You may need to add a relay like I showed in the above post to trick the CANBUS. Full details on it at the link below in my sig.
182490

[bikerbillone]

IMO, the LEDs on my 2020 is excellent visability so I'll probably leave it be until I'm convinced there's something better. I do like the after market plug and play I see on the fender lights. Why BRM didn't install as OEMs for that is a mystery.

[whodat]

I honestly don’t think BRP has any idea what they’re doing when it comes to manufacturing these things. Factory halogen headlights, led front lights, incandescent tail bulbs, three different size tools to take one part off, etc. They’re a hot mess.

[bikerbillone]

whodat, well said.

[Rattlebars]

whodat, yup. When I was working on my fender, I needed a torx, 8mm socket & wrench and a 10mm socket & wrench. Apparently they have too many engineers (cooks?). I think it would be good to have every engineer forced to use what he designed for 10 hours a day for a week.

[troop]

Just curious, when the lights hyper flashed, were any dash/display lights going wonky? I could "maybe" live with a hyper flash, but not with a flashing/error dash light always being on.. Thx

[troop]

** Got my answer. My byke displayed error code U0155 (Canbus) after installing and getting hyper flash. Code cleared after a couple of short rides with regular bulbs in. **

[Russell1952]

I have a 2016 Can-Am Spyder RT limited. I have found and just installed the perfect LED rear turn signal bulbs and LED back-up bulbs. I got both sets on Amazon and both sets have "Can-Bus" diodes built into the bulbs so NO hyper-flash and NO error codes. Below are the links to them.

Here is the link to the Xenon White LED back-up bulbs - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DZS4TPT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
BOODLIED 20Watts No Hyper Flash 1156 P21W 1141 BA15S LED LED Bulbs High Power 4014 105SMD LED Lamps For
Reverse Lights,Turn Signal Lights(No Load Resistor Required),Xenon White, Pack of 2

Here is the link to the LED turn signal bulbs - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QWWZ6GJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
EverBright 2800Lumen 1156 Amber Led Bulb BA15S P21W 1141 7506 Front Rear Turn Signal Bulb, 90% Canbus Error
Free Led Turn Signal Light Bulb Amber Yellow, 3014 Chipset 144SMD (Pack of 2)

[osj3]

I repalced all the LED's on my 2018 F3. it Hyper flased but Lamonster give directions on how to reset it. Took me a couple trys to get it right. but I have not load resisters on my bike and every single light on mine are LED

[hypurone]

hopefully there's an easier way...larryd

There really is. Just use a higher candlepower incandescent 1157HP. "Supposedly" they will have a shorter life. I haven't experienced this with the ones I am using. Just had my first one fail after 2.5 years! I have had NO problems with them melting anything... And believe it or not they came from EBay!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1157HP-Hi-Power-12v-Tail-Light-Rear-Brake-Stop-Turn-Signal-Bulbs-50-14w-10pc-7-7/232525070272?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Rattlebars]

Just a note: If I'm at a looong stop light, after a car is behind me, I will engage the Emergency Brake and leave off the pedal.


I repalced all the LED's on my 2018 F3. it Hyper flased but Lamonster give directions on how to reset it. Took me a couple trys to get it right. but I have not load resisters on my bike and every single light on mine are LED

In saying that, do you mean you were able to set the canbus to recognize the extra lights and stop hyper flash by holding onto the hazard switch for 30 seconds or so? Did your dash light up as shown in the video below? Did you hold it for longer than 30 seconds? If so, that's great news!


https://youtu.be/8q1CHHRARuA

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

whodat, yup. When I was working on my fender, I needed a torx, 8mm socket & wrench and a 10mm socket & wrench. Apparently they have too many engineers (cooks?). I think it would be good to have every engineer forced to use what he designed for 10 hours a day for a week.
No worse than what I experienced in Pittsburgh 50 years ago. I decided to buy a bicycle for my 4 year old son. As you may know Pittsburgh had, or maybe still has, a large Polish population. Naturally they were the brunt of many ethnic jokes back then. I found a 16" bicycle that I liked because if had real bearings in the pedal crank, not nylon bushings. The tag on front said Made in Poland. I said to myself, "I'm not going to let any kind of anti-Polish prejudice stop me from buying what looks like a great bike." I get it home and start assembling it. I kid you not, there were 10 places to use a wrench to tighten things and I had to use seven different sizes!

[osj3]

I added brake lights (the ones on tricled website) and I replaced all my lights with LED's. And YES I followed the directions on the video below. Took me 2 or 3 tries on each side but in the end, it took. Also, I did it with and without the engine running. I found that if you do it with the engine off it only worked when it was off. and when the bike was running it would still hyper flash. I followed the directions with both the right and left side one time with the engine on and again with it off.
https://youtu.be/gpuEqpiTm4M

[osj3]

Just a note: If I'm at a looong stop light, after a car is behind me, I will engage the Emergency Brake and leave off the pedal.



In saying that, do you mean you were able to set the canbus to recognize the extra lights and stop hyper flash by holding onto the hazard switch for 30 seconds or so? Did your dash light up as shown in the video below? Did you hold it for longer than 30 seconds? If so, that's great news!


https://youtu.be/8q1CHHRARuA

I added brake lights (the ones on tricled website) and I replaced all my lights with LED's. And YES I followed the directions on the video below. Took me 2 or 3 tries on each side but in the end, it took. Also, I did it with and without the engine running. I found that if you do it with the engine off it only worked when it was off. and when the bike was running it would still hyper flash. I followed the directions with both the right and left side one time with the engine on and again with it off.
https://youtu.be/gpuEqpiTm4M

[whodat]

That makes sense. Theoretically what it does is train the computer what ‘normal’ current draw is. Engine off the bike puts out 12v, running it should be 14.4v. Doesn’t sound like much but that’s a 20% change.

[Rattlebars]

I added brake lights (the ones on tricled website) and I replaced all my lights with LED's. And YES I followed the directions on the video below. Took me 2 or 3 tries on each side but in the end, it took. Also, I did it with and without the engine running. I found that if you do it with the engine off it only worked when it was off. and when the bike was running it would still hyper flash. I followed the directions with both the right and left side one time with the engine on and again with it off.
https://youtu.be/gpuEqpiTm4M

That's good to hear! :yes: Thanks osj3!

Many have said the "learning" ability of the system was eliminated after 2017. Apparently NOT! Peter? This should/could be a sticky note on the top of the forum?

[Rattlebars]

That makes sense. Theoretically what it does is train the computer what ‘normal’ current draw is. Engine off the bike puts out 12v, running it should be 14.4v. Doesn’t sound like much but that’s a 20% change.

Yes. Too, there could be some lights/loads that are only active when the engine is running.